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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/08/17 6:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Because she's frustrated that no one is giving her favorite team the vastly inflated deference she erroneously believes is due.

I'm still trying to figure out how SCar for the first time joining the rather large club of 40+ schools that have been to the final four (a semi final, not a final, by the way) is supposed to explain the Davis and Gray transfers a month later.

I didn't see a flood of blue chip transfers the next year to Syracuse when they went to the title game or to UDub and OreSt when they, like SCar the year before, made their first FFs. Why didn't Davis and Gray choose UConn, ND or Maryland, each of which was also in the 2015 FF and each of which had one hell of a lot more impressive record of success. So going to their first final four ever doesn't seem to explain it, and it seems those asking why SCar has seen this parade of transfers might still have a point. Just stomping one's foot and repeating "it's because everybody loves a winner" doesn't explain it at all.


cattekin



Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 251
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PostPosted: 06/08/17 8:04 pm    ::: Re: Anna Hammaker leaves Kansas State Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:
cattekin wrote:
Hammaker split her kneecap before the '16-'17 season, and redshirted. She's not coming back.

http://themercury.com/k_state_sports/anna-hammaker-leaves-k-state-women-s-basketball-team/article_3798ab30-3dc8-5306-b972-dd2fd8ba11da.html


Is she going home to Tennessee, or staying at KSU? The article doesn't say? I assume she plans to graduate from college somewhere.


She's "excited about where the Lord leads [her] next."


ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 06/09/17 9:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't know much about the situation in South Carolina, but my guess would be this: Dawn and staff never stop recruiting, even after players are in college. It obviously isn't direct recruiting, but it would seem to me that the only way players consistently make that decision is if there's some effort involved.

And by the way, I see nothing wrong with it. If Staley and staff work harder than other coaches in this way, more power to them ...



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Fighting Artichoke



Joined: 12 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: 06/09/17 10:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
I don't know much about the situation in South Carolina, but my guess would be this: Dawn and staff never stop recruiting, even after players are in college. It obviously isn't direct recruiting, but it would seem to me that the only way players consistently make that decision is if there's some effort involved.

And by the way, I see nothing wrong with it. If Staley and staff work harder than other coaches in this way, more power to them ...

You find nothing wrong with indirectly recruiting players already in other programs? Isn't that presently against the rules?

Plus if you agree that it's copacetic for players to transfer without penalty (a point you argue vociferously), the combination of these two beliefs would greatly undermine coaches' attempts to build a cohesive and balanced team. Coaches would be forced to poach players from other teams to compensate for their own transfer losses. Did you think this through?


#Occasionalwnbafan



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PostPosted: 06/09/17 11:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Davis and Gray are from Georgia, maybe they wanted a chance to win and stay close to home, Dawn is in on some pretty good players in the 2018 class, and they dominate the SEC. Other then dominating a top heavy ACC, ND hasn't done much since Diggins graduated, I still feel like it was her swagger that took her team to battle vs Uconn and beat them a few times which made people think ND was the 2nd best program in the nation, but IMO Muffet is GROSSLY overrated, she's not a great in game decision coach, and her player development has been pretty lack luster to say the least.
Fighting Artichoke



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PostPosted: 06/09/17 11:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

#Occasionalwnbafan wrote:
Davis and Gray are from Georgia, maybe they wanted a chance to win and stay close to home, Dawn is in on some pretty good players in the 2018 class, and they dominate the SEC. Other then dominating a top heavy ACC, ND hasn't done much since Diggins graduated, I still feel like it was her swagger that took her team to battle vs Uconn and beat them a few times which made people think ND was the 2nd best program in the nation, but IMO Muffet is GROSSLY overrated, she's not a great in game decision coach, and her player development has been pretty lack luster to say the least.


Notre Dame didn't do much since Diggins graduated? In those four seasons, they have made the national championship game twice and had a record of 139-10, second only to UConn. South Carolina won the National Championship last season, but their other finishes the past 4 seasons included a loss to Notre Dame in the FF and 2 losses in the Sweet 16. Their record those 4 years was 129-14. Notre Dame has disappointed the past 2 seasons, but remember that last season they were the second-seeded 1-seed and their fate was sealed when Brianna Turner, their only effective presence down low, was lost to an ACL injury in the second round of the NCAA tournament. They blew out Ohio State in the Sweet 16 before losing their Elite game to Stanford by 1 point.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/09/17 11:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

#Occasionalwnbafan wrote:
Other then dominating a top heavy ACC, ND hasn't done much since Diggins graduated. . . . . .


. . . .other than play in two NCAA title games, which no other team except UConn has done in that four year period.

And I'm glad you've decided that going 62-2 in conference while winning four regular season and four ACC Tournament titles is so insignificant. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

As an aside Notre Dame finished #2 to UConn's #1 in the final AP poll in each of the four post-Diggins years during which they were "not doing much". Unfortunately in two of those four years they lost their center to a knee injury midway through the tournament. First Achonwa in 2014 and this year Turner. Turner's injury being one of South Carolina's several lucky breaks last April.

Any more alternative facts you'd like to share with us, Donald?


purduefanatic



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Location: Indiana


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PostPosted: 06/09/17 12:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fighting Artichoke wrote:
#Occasionalwnbafan wrote:
Davis and Gray are from Georgia, maybe they wanted a chance to win and stay close to home, Dawn is in on some pretty good players in the 2018 class, and they dominate the SEC. Other then dominating a top heavy ACC, ND hasn't done much since Diggins graduated, I still feel like it was her swagger that took her team to battle vs Uconn and beat them a few times which made people think ND was the 2nd best program in the nation, but IMO Muffet is GROSSLY overrated, she's not a great in game decision coach, and her player development has been pretty lack luster to say the least.


Notre Dame didn't do much since Diggins graduated? In those four seasons, they have made the national championship game twice and had a record of 139-10, second only to UConn. South Carolina won the National Championship last season, but their other finishes the past 4 seasons included a loss to Notre Dame in the FF and 2 losses in the Sweet 16. Their record those 4 years was 129-14. Notre Dame has disappointed the past 2 seasons, but remember that last season they were the second-seeded 1-seed and their fate was sealed when Brianna Turner, their only effective presence down low, was lost to an ACL injury in the second round of the NCAA tournament. They blew out Ohio State in the Sweet 16 before losing their Elite game to Stanford by 1 point.


Yeah, I'm clearly not a ND fan and I had to chuckle at the "haven't done much since Diggins graduated" comment. I mean, clearly they have been horrible. Rolling Eyes


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/09/17 12:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
I don't know much about the situation in South Carolina, but my guess would be this: Dawn and staff never stop recruiting, even after players are in college. It obviously isn't direct recruiting, but it would seem to me that the only way players consistently make that decision is if there's some effort involved.


So it sounds like you're in the WNBA09 camp that assumes Dawn's cheating.


#Occasionalwnbafan



Joined: 01 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: 06/09/17 12:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
#Occasionalwnbafan wrote:
Other then dominating a top heavy ACC, ND hasn't done much since Diggins graduated. . . . . .


. . . .other than play in two NCAA title games, which no other team except UConn has done in that four year period.

And I'm glad you've decided that going 62-2 in conference while winning four regular season and four ACC Tournament titles is so insignificant. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

As an aside Notre Dame finished #2 to UConn's #1 in the final AP poll in each of the four post-Diggins years during which they were "not doing much". Unfortunately in two of those four years they lost their center to a knee injury midway through the tournament. First Achonwa in 2014 and this year Turner. Turner's injury being one of South Carolina's several lucky breaks last April.

Any more alternative facts you'd like to share with us, Donald?


You mad or nah? please pick up a book and learn how to READ!
ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/09/17 12:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

#Occasionalwnbafan wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
#Occasionalwnbafan wrote:
Other then dominating a top heavy ACC, ND hasn't done much since Diggins graduated. . . . . .


. . . .other than play in two NCAA title games, which no other team except UConn has done in that four year period.

And I'm glad you've decided that going 62-2 in conference while winning four regular season and four ACC Tournament titles is so insignificant. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

As an aside Notre Dame finished #2 to UConn's #1 in the final AP poll in each of the four post-Diggins years during which they were "not doing much". Unfortunately in two of those four years they lost their center to a knee injury midway through the tournament. First Achonwa in 2014 and this year Turner. Turner's injury being one of South Carolina's several lucky breaks last April.

Any more alternative facts you'd like to share with us, Donald?


You mad or nah? please pick up a book and learn how to READ!


Oh I read your post. It was absurd.


ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 06/09/17 1:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fighting Artichoke wrote:
ClayK wrote:
I don't know much about the situation in South Carolina, but my guess would be this: Dawn and staff never stop recruiting, even after players are in college. It obviously isn't direct recruiting, but it would seem to me that the only way players consistently make that decision is if there's some effort involved.

And by the way, I see nothing wrong with it. If Staley and staff work harder than other coaches in this way, more power to them ...

You find nothing wrong with indirectly recruiting players already in other programs? Isn't that presently against the rules?

Plus if you agree that it's copacetic for players to transfer without penalty (a point you argue vociferously), the combination of these two beliefs would greatly undermine coaches' attempts to build a cohesive and balanced team. Coaches would be forced to poach players from other teams to compensate for their own transfer losses. Did you think this through?


To me, it just means coaches have to work harder, and I have no problem with that.

The only reason coaches would have to poach players is if they lose players because they don't treat them well ... (which is one of the negatives of the transfer restrictions -- players feel trapped).

Coaches and colleges have too much power once a player signs a NLI, and anything that gives players more freedom is a good thing. If coaches are forced to treat their players with more respect and more honestly because of a threat that some other coach will treat them better, I have no problem at all.

Will some players make bad choices? Of course -- but the less "my way or the highway" coaching we get, the better off the players are, and isn't this system supposed to be built around the players' experience and education?



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Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: 06/09/17 3:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
The only reason coaches would have to poach players is if they lose players because they don't treat them well ... (which is one of the negatives of the transfer restrictions -- players feel trapped).


Nononono. There's a TON of reasons a coach might want to poach players, if they could. "Treat them well"?? That's hugely subjective....many a prima-donna might believe she's not "treated well' just cuz her playing time has diminished, etc. Actual and real mistreatment is one thing, but kids' whims are often quite another.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 06/09/17 5:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
ClayK wrote:
The only reason coaches would have to poach players is if they lose players because they don't treat them well ... (which is one of the negatives of the transfer restrictions -- players feel trapped).


Nononono. There's a TON of reasons a coach might want to poach players, if they could. "Treat them well"?? That's hugely subjective....many a prima-donna might believe she's not "treated well' just cuz her playing time has diminished, etc. Actual and real mistreatment is one thing, but kids' whims are often quite another.


And what difference does it make if we think, or the coach thinks, that the player is being treated well if the player doesn't? If you're not being treated well, in your mind, at work, and someone else offers you a job, wouldn't you take the opportunity to be treated more to your liking?

Why shouldn't a player have that option? And why shouldn't another potential employer have an opportunity to make that case?

Who are we, or worse, the NCAA, to determine whether a young person is being treated fairly or not?



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FrozenLVFan



Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: 06/09/17 6:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
And what difference does it make if we think, or the coach thinks, that the player is being treated well if the player doesn't? If you're not being treated well, in your mind, at work, and someone else offers you a job, wouldn't you take the opportunity to be treated more to your liking?

Why shouldn't a player have that option? And why shouldn't another potential employer have an opportunity to make that case?

Who are we, or worse, the NCAA, to determine whether a young person is being treated fairly or not?


For the simple reason that children, players, or employees can't always get their own way. Demanding that a parent, coach, or boss cater to every demand is absurd. You can't run a household, team, or business like that.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 06/09/17 7:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
ClayK wrote:
And what difference does it make if we think, or the coach thinks, that the player is being treated well if the player doesn't? If you're not being treated well, in your mind, at work, and someone else offers you a job, wouldn't you take the opportunity to be treated more to your liking?

Why shouldn't a player have that option? And why shouldn't another potential employer have an opportunity to make that case?

Who are we, or worse, the NCAA, to determine whether a young person is being treated fairly or not?


For the simple reason that children, players, or employees can't always get their own way. Demanding that a parent, coach, or boss cater to every demand is absurd. You can't run a household, team, or business like that.


Of course they can't always get their own way. But workers can take another job, which is precisely what we're talking about. Why can't a player take a job at a different company? And why can't a boss at a different company offer that player a job?



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/09/17 9:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
ClayK wrote:
And what difference does it make if we think, or the coach thinks, that the player is being treated well if the player doesn't? If you're not being treated well, in your mind, at work, and someone else offers you a job, wouldn't you take the opportunity to be treated more to your liking?

Why shouldn't a player have that option? And why shouldn't another potential employer have an opportunity to make that case?

Who are we, or worse, the NCAA, to determine whether a young person is being treated fairly or not?


For the simple reason that children, players, or employees can't always get their own way. Demanding that a parent, coach, or boss cater to every demand is absurd. You can't run a household, team, or business like that.


Of course they can't always get their own way. But workers can take another job, which is precisely what we're talking about. Why can't a player take a job at a different company? And why can't a boss at a different company offer that player a job?


So, as I've said, give them the same rights to pick their own team and to move as pro players.

This notion that the whole rest of the world can pack up and move on whim is ridiculous. If you work taking orders at McDonalds, sure, nobody cares if you change jobs. But if you have a more serious job, there are usually restrictions. And there are severe restrictions on pro athletes.


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PostPosted: 06/10/17 10:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

UW's Aarion McDonald to transfer. Huskies lose all three top scorers from last season. McDonald might transfer to USC to play under Trakh, which is interesting because the Wynns are Trakh disciples. If this comes about Trakh will have the Moores and McDonald, which is pretty impressive.

https://twitter.com/Raoul_000/status/873331419631820802


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: 06/10/17 12:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Howee wrote:
ClayK wrote:
The only reason coaches would have to poach players is if they lose players because they don't treat them well ... (which is one of the negatives of the transfer restrictions -- players feel trapped).


Nononono. There's a TON of reasons a coach might want to poach players, if they could. "Treat them well"?? That's hugely subjective....many a prima-donna might believe she's not "treated well' just cuz her playing time has diminished, etc. Actual and real mistreatment is one thing, but kids' whims are often quite another.


And what difference does it make if we think, or the coach thinks, that the player is being treated well if the player doesn't? If you're not being treated well, in your mind, at work, and someone else offers you a job, wouldn't you take the opportunity to be treated more to your liking?
Why shouldn't a player have that option? And why shouldn't another potential employer have an opportunity to make that case?


Who are we, or worse, the NCAA, to determine whether a young person is being treated fairly or not?

Apples and Oranges.
First of all, let me state that I do NOT think transfers should be forbidden. I DO think there needs to be parameters that include consequences meant to make one think hard, and not just do it on mere whim.

But. All of Life is not one big Free Agency. The privilege AND responsibility that go with that concept are not inherent. Clay, you have kids? What do you think if your 8 year old decides he wants different PARENTS? Now, even if he's a brat, and YOU don't mind 'trading' him in, there are actual laws that prevent that.

Should government (NCAA?) have that right? Shocked I mean, ya, that's not EXACTLY the same (is it?) but the principles are parallel.

And unlike most child/parent relationships where little or no choice was involved in the initial *placement* process, college kids go through a kind of vetting procedure, where the coach/school/kid get to assess each other, AND then decide to commit or not. All parties owe each other, to some degree---if not utterly undying commitment, at least some consideration as to what impact a 'separation' will inflict.



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 11:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LitePal wrote:
UW's Aarion McDonald to transfer. Huskies lose all three top scorers from last season. McDonald might transfer to USC to play under Trakh, which is interesting because the Wynns are Trakh disciples. If this comes about Trakh will have the Moores and McDonald, which is pretty impressive.

https://twitter.com/Raoul_000/status/873331419631820802


oh, I so love my avatar and was looking forward to rooting for her this year just because the koala is adorable. I feel personally bertrayed. Twisted Evil Now the search for new avatar must begin.



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brunie1064



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 12:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
LitePal wrote:
UW's Aarion McDonald to transfer. Huskies lose all three top scorers from last season. McDonald might transfer to USC to play under Trakh, which is interesting because the Wynns are Trakh disciples. If this comes about Trakh will have the Moores and McDonald, which is pretty impressive.

https://twitter.com/Raoul_000/status/873331419631820802


oh, I so love my avatar and was looking forward to rooting for her this year just because the koala is adorable. I feel personally bertrayed. Twisted Evil Now the search for new avatar must begin.


Maybe you could wait and see where she goes and, instead of getting a new avatar, get a new team to root for?


summertime blues



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 2:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
LitePal wrote:
UW's Aarion McDonald to transfer. Huskies lose all three top scorers from last season. McDonald might transfer to USC to play under Trakh, which is interesting because the Wynns are Trakh disciples. If this comes about Trakh will have the Moores and McDonald, which is pretty impressive.

https://twitter.com/Raoul_000/status/873331419631820802


oh, I so love my avatar and was looking forward to rooting for her this year just because the koala is adorable. I feel personally bertrayed. Twisted Evil Now the search for new avatar must begin.


myrtle, I feel for you, seriously I do. I was just about to put Savannah Felgemacher up as my avatar when she decided to transfer Crying or Very sad To RADFORD, of all damn places. Now I have to find a new one too. I don't really like Duke Dog.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 3:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
Clay, you have kids? What do you think if your 8 year old decides he wants different PARENTS? Now, even if he's a brat, and YOU don't mind 'trading' him in, there are actual laws that prevent that.


Maybe this is the issue.

An 18-year-old is not an 8-year-old. An 18-year-old can vote. An 18-year-old can carry a gun in Afghanistan. An 18-year-old is responsible for her own decisions.

And of course most of these players are closer to 20.

They are not children. They should not be treated as such.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 6:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Quote:
Clay, you have kids? What do you think if your 8 year old decides he wants different PARENTS? Now, even if he's a brat, and YOU don't mind 'trading' him in, there are actual laws that prevent that.


Maybe this is the issue.

An 18-year-old is not an 8-year-old. An 18-year-old can vote. An 18-year-old can carry a gun in Afghanistan. An 18-year-old is responsible for her own decisions.

And of course most of these players are closer to 20.

They are not children. They should not be treated as such.


Yeah, treat 'em like adults. Like when they're 22 and are told "if you want to play in the WNBA you will play for team X, unless of course team X decides to trade you whenever they feel like it to team Z. And no, you do not have any choice to move to another city or team. You can't pick your team, you can't pick your coach, you can't pick your teammates, you can't pick your climate, you can't pick your distance from home or friends. You will have no say for many years, if ever, in where you will play. Take it or leave it. And by the way, your compensation for the next several years will be less than what it was in college the last four years. And no, that's not negotiable either."

Yeah, treat 'em like adults. Yeah, that's a great idea. Shocked


Howee



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 9:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Quote:
Clay, you have kids? What do you think if your 8 year old decides he wants different PARENTS? Now, even if he's a brat, and YOU don't mind 'trading' him in, there are actual laws that prevent that.


Maybe this is the issue.

An 18-year-old is not an 8-year-old. An 18-year-old can vote. An 18-year-old can carry a gun in Afghanistan. An 18-year-old is responsible for her own decisions.

And of course most of these players are closer to 20.

They are not children. They should not be treated as such.


Yeah, treat 'em like adults. Like when they're 22 and are told "if you want to play in the WNBA you will play for team X, unless of course team X decides to trade you whenever they feel like it to team Z. And no, you do not have any choice to move to another city or team. You can't pick your team, you can't pick your coach, you can't pick your teammates, you can't pick your climate, you can't pick your distance from home or friends. You will have no say for many years, if ever, in where you will play.

Unless......you're Elena Delle Donne. Or Sylvia Fowles. Or Cappie Pondexter.* Wait.... Razz Laughing
Exceptions aside, I must agree with Art here: 99.8% of the kids we're talking about will never have those negotiating options in their Adult Reality.

Regarding the differences/similarities between the ages of kids, I PROMISE you, mentally and emotionally, an 18-year-old is far more like an 8-year old than they are like a 28-year-old.

*Even these stars respected their draft commitments at 22, no questions asked.



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PostPosted: 06/12/17 9:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Jasmine LeBlanc has left LA Tech for Troy.



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PostPosted: 06/12/17 10:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ohio State's Kianna Hollander retires from basketball due to injury, will stay to finish graduate degree. http://www.ohiostatebuckeyes.com/sports/w-baskbl/spec-rel/061217aaa.html



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PostPosted: 06/12/17 10:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Loyola Marymount adds transfer from Marquette, 6'4 C Megan Mandel http://j.mp/2teNnEj



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PostPosted: 06/12/17 10:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Howee wrote:
ClayK wrote:
The only reason coaches would have to poach players is if they lose players because they don't treat them well ... (which is one of the negatives of the transfer restrictions -- players feel trapped).


Nononono. There's a TON of reasons a coach might want to poach players, if they could. "Treat them well"?? That's hugely subjective....many a prima-donna might believe she's not "treated well' just cuz her playing time has diminished, etc. Actual and real mistreatment is one thing, but kids' whims are often quite another.


And what difference does it make if we think, or the coach thinks, that the player is being treated well if the player doesn't? If you're not being treated well, in your mind, at work, and someone else offers you a job, wouldn't you take the opportunity to be treated more to your liking?
Why shouldn't a player have that option? And why shouldn't another potential employer have an opportunity to make that case?


Who are we, or worse, the NCAA, to determine whether a young person is being treated fairly or not?

Apples and Oranges.
First of all, let me state that I do NOT think transfers should be forbidden. I DO think there needs to be parameters that include consequences meant to make one think hard, and not just do it on mere whim.

But. All of Life is not one big Free Agency. The privilege AND responsibility that go with that concept are not inherent. Clay, you have kids? What do you think if your 8 year old decides he wants different PARENTS? Now, even if he's a brat, and YOU don't mind 'trading' him in, there are actual laws that prevent that.


You are crying apples and oranges and then trying to compare kids changing parents with college athletes transferring? Seems like apples and cauliflower.


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PostPosted: 06/13/17 9:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Again, the main discussion was about whether it was appropriate for coaches to continue recruiting players after they've signed an NLI.

Let's go back to the workplace, which is what a college scholarship is. You're selling cars for Ford, and doing OK. The boss of the Chevy store down the street likes your work -- shouldn't she be able to reach out to you and say "Hey, I think we have a better situation for you here. Why don't you consider coming over?"

Why should the rules be any different for an adult in college than an adult working for Ford (or for Safeway or for Forever 21)? Why should college students be artificially constrained from taking advantage of whatever opportunities come their way?

Of course, we have few options in the marketplace for our skills, but in the real world, all of those options are available. For a college athlete, the NCAA arbitrarily removes those options. Maybe other industries do too, but that doesn't make it the correct way for an industry to treat its employees.



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linkster



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PostPosted: 06/13/17 11:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Again, the main discussion was about whether it was appropriate for coaches to continue recruiting players after they've signed an NLI.

Let's go back to the workplace, which is what a college scholarship is. You're selling cars for Ford, and doing OK. The boss of the Chevy store down the street likes your work -- shouldn't she be able to reach out to you and say "Hey, I think we have a better situation for you here. Why don't you consider coming over?"

Why should the rules be any different for an adult in college than an adult working for Ford (or for Safeway or for Forever 21)? Why should college students be artificially constrained from taking advantage of whatever opportunities come their way?

Of course, we have few options in the marketplace for our skills, but in the real world, all of those options are available. For a college athlete, the NCAA arbitrarily removes those options. Maybe other industries do too, but that doesn't make it the correct way for an industry to treat its employees.


"Hey, I think we have a better situation for you here. Why don't you consider coming over?"

So you would be OK with fat cat boosters for a rival college showing up at an athlete's dorm room with a bag of cash and the keys to a Lexus? Is there a limit to your "Laissez-faire" proposal? I am willing to consider it but fear that first it would kill the goose that lays the golden eggs as many universities would end up dropping out of intercollegiate sports and second, a few schools with very deep pockets would dominate and sports betting would drastically shrink along with public interest and inevitably, TV money. .


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/13/17 11:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:


Let's go back to the workplace, which is what a college scholarship is. You're selling cars for Ford, and doing OK. The boss of the Chevy store down the street likes your work -- shouldn't she be able to reach out to you and say "Hey, I think we have a better situation for you here. Why don't you consider coming over?"

Why should the rules be any different for an adult in college than an adult working for Ford (or for Safeway or for Forever 21)? Why should college students be artificially constrained from taking advantage of whatever opportunities come their way?


Your car salesman example is every bit as irrelevant as the kids changing parents analogy.

Why not stick to sports. If the boss of the Lakers or the Cowboys or the Lynx likes the work of a player on another team, can they reach out and say "Hey, I think we have a better situation for you here. Why don't you consider coming over?". You know perfectly well that in all but rare circumstances the answer is absolutely no, they can't.

Sports teams and leagues and conferences aren't like 7/11 or Bob's Used Cars. Building and maintaining a "team" and continuity is critical to the success of each team, and stability and competitive balance are critical to the success of leagues and conferences. And thus they have rules that promote those interests. And EVERY group in every sport from high school to pros has rules restricting movement. And NCAA players are a LOT freer than players in pro league's.

Why not deal with the real world of sports and stop talking about checkout clerks.

When WNBA and NBA and NFL players are free to pick their first team, and are free to pack up and change teams any time they feel like it, then maybe you'll at least have a valid argument. Right now, you don't.


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PostPosted: 06/13/17 11:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
ClayK wrote:


Let's go back to the workplace, which is what a college scholarship is. You're selling cars for Ford, and doing OK. The boss of the Chevy store down the street likes your work -- shouldn't she be able to reach out to you and say "Hey, I think we have a better situation for you here. Why don't you consider coming over?"

Why should the rules be any different for an adult in college than an adult working for Ford (or for Safeway or for Forever 21)? Why should college students be artificially constrained from taking advantage of whatever opportunities come their way?


Your car salesman example is every bit as irrelevant as the kids changing parents analogy.

Why not stick to sports. If the boss of the Lakers or the Cowboys or the Lynx likes the work of a player on another team, can they reach out and say "Hey, I think we have a better situation for you here. Why don't you consider coming over?". You know perfectly well that in all but rare circumstances the answer is absolutely no, they can't.

Sports teams and leagues and conferences aren't like 7/11 or Bob's Used Cars. Building and maintaining a "team" and continuity is critical to the success of each team, and stability and competitive balance are critical to the success of leagues and conferences. And thus they have rules that promote those interests. And EVERY group in every sport from high school to pros has rules restricting movement. And NCAA players are a LOT freer than players in pro league's.

Why not deal with the real world of sports and stop talking about checkout clerks.

When WNBA and NBA and NFL players are free to pick their first team, and are free to pack up and change teams any time they feel like it, then maybe you'll at least have a valid argument. Right now, you don't.


I believe this discussion should be its own thread. How about it, Queenie?



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PostPosted: 06/13/17 11:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

linkster wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Again, the main discussion was about whether it was appropriate for coaches to continue recruiting players after they've signed an NLI.

Let's go back to the workplace, which is what a college scholarship is. You're selling cars for Ford, and doing OK. The boss of the Chevy store down the street likes your work -- shouldn't she be able to reach out to you and say "Hey, I think we have a better situation for you here. Why don't you consider coming over?"

Why should the rules be any different for an adult in college than an adult working for Ford (or for Safeway or for Forever 21)? Why should college students be artificially constrained from taking advantage of whatever opportunities come their way?

Of course, we have few options in the marketplace for our skills, but in the real world, all of those options are available. For a college athlete, the NCAA arbitrarily removes those options. Maybe other industries do too, but that doesn't make it the correct way for an industry to treat its employees.


"Hey, I think we have a better situation for you here. Why don't you consider coming over?"

So you would be OK with fat cat boosters for a rival college showing up at an athlete's dorm room with a bag of cash and the keys to a Lexus? Is there a limit to your "Laissez-faire" proposal? I am willing to consider it but fear that first it would kill the goose that lays the golden eggs as many universities would end up dropping out of intercollegiate sports and second, a few schools with very deep pockets would dominate and sports betting would drastically shrink along with public interest and inevitably, TV money. .


A few schools with deep pockets dominate now. How would this make it different?



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PostPosted: 06/13/17 12:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
When WNBA and NBA and NFL players are free to pick their first team, and are free to pack up and change teams any time they feel like it, then maybe you'll at least have a valid argument. Right now, you don't.


Professional athletes can have a career of 10 years or more. In the NBA, most players are free agents after three years; some after four. In MLB, in which the careers are longer, the maximum is six. (Players may choose to sign longer contracts, but that's a different story.)

Let's go with an eight-year career and four-year free agency. That means after half their career, a professional athlete can change employers with no penalty.

Obviously, a similar percentage would mean that a college athlete could, after completing two years, change employers with no penalty.

I'm fine with this compromise -- give college athletes an option after two years to move on. If they choose to stay, then present rules apply through the rest of their career.

I still don't get this attitude that college athletes must stick it out and if they don't, they get penalized. I'm not sure why 18-year-olds are being compared to 8-year-olds. I'm not sure what age would qualify as being "mature enough" to make a decision about one's own life.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/13/17 12:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Quote:
When WNBA and NBA and NFL players are free to pick their first team, and are free to pack up and change teams any time they feel like it, then maybe you'll at least have a valid argument. Right now, you don't.


Professional athletes can have a career of 10 years or more. In the NBA, most players are free agents after three years; some after four. In MLB, in which the careers are longer, the maximum is six. (Players may choose to sign longer contracts, but that's a different story.)

Let's go with an eight-year career and four-year free agency. That means after half their career, a professional athlete can change employers with no penalty.

Obviously, a similar percentage would mean that a college athlete could, after completing two years, change employers with no penalty.

I'm fine with this compromise -- give college athletes an option after two years to move on. If they choose to stay, then present rules apply through the rest of their career.

I still don't get this attitude that college athletes must stick it out and if they don't, they get penalized. I'm not sure why 18-year-olds are being compared to 8-year-olds. I'm not sure what age would qualify as being "mature enough" to make a decision about one's own life.


Or, say they can do it after four years, like the pros. Oh, that's right, they already can!

And since you want to make it equal, maybe you think college players should have no choice or say in what college they get to attend too.

And let colleges slap a "core" designation or franchise tag on one star every year so that they can't transfer at all. Just like the pros.

You really can't win the the argument that college players are more restricted than pros. They aren't. And it's not even close.

I have a far more apt analogy. Since you consider scholarship athletes paid professionals, just consider the LOI to be their first four year contract. At least they get to choose who to sign with. Guess they shouldn't be allowed to leave at all until their contract term expires. Or maybe schools should be free to trade them or sell them to another school?


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PostPosted: 06/13/17 3:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The real issue is whether the players are getting fair compensation for their services, and unfortunately the answer is not black and white. For the vast majority of players a scholarship is reasonable compensation, particularly if they are viewed as students first. For the elite athletes, particularly in Men's Basketball and Football, the compensation is decidedly unreasonable (as is shown by the types of recruiting violations and the amount of money that the schools make. In women's basketball the money is less, but there are still some people that are making quite a bit of money based primarily on the actions of these athletes. And the rules are used as a hammer against the people that the system is supposed to be serving.

Did it really make sense for EDD to lose an entire year of basketball because she showed up on the UConn campus for 1 day? Was anybody harmed by her actions?

What about Diamond Deshields? I wish it were the case that she was so horrified when she got to North Carolina to find out that the scholastics for basketball players was so poor that she decided she needed to get her education elsewhere (I'm pretty sure that was not the reason).

Is it in any way fair that a coach can have a significant bonus built in to a contract for performance but players can't. Indeed there are the stories of teams being penalized for poor performance by being banned from locker rooms. Shouldn't that type of treatment allow players to say screw this, I want to go somewhere else?

It is reasonable to have rules, but when they become so one sided because the NCAA has an effective monopoly on top quality college athletics there have to be protections built in.to ensure fairness, Transfers are one issue out of many that need to be reconsidered based on the environment of 2017.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/13/17 4:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
The real issue is whether the players are getting fair compensation for their services, and unfortunately the answer is not black and white. For the vast majority of players a scholarship is reasonable compensation, particularly if they are viewed as students first. For the elite athletes, particularly in Men's Basketball and Football, the compensation is decidedly unreasonable (as is shown by the types of recruiting violations and the amount of money that the schools make. In women's basketball the money is less, but there are still some people that are making quite a bit of money based primarily on the actions of these athletes. And the rules are used as a hammer against the people that the system is supposed to be serving.

Did it really make sense for EDD to lose an entire year of basketball because she showed up on the UConn campus for 1 day? Was anybody harmed by her actions?

What about Diamond Deshields? I wish it were the case that she was so horrified when she got to North Carolina to find out that the scholastics for basketball players was so poor that she decided she needed to get her education elsewhere (I'm pretty sure that was not the reason).

Is it in any way fair that a coach can have a significant bonus built in to a contract for performance but players can't. Indeed there are the stories of teams being penalized for poor performance by being banned from locker rooms. Shouldn't that type of treatment allow players to say screw this, I want to go somewhere else?

It is reasonable to have rules, but when they become so one sided because the NCAA has an effective monopoly on top quality college athletics there have to be protections built in.to ensure fairness, Transfers are one issue out of many that need to be reconsidered based on the environment of 2017.


The "compensation" issue has absolutely nothing to do with the NCAA. It has entirely to do with the professional leagues and their player unions that bar your elite athletes from turning pro when they want to and are able to. The WNBA is the most restrictive of all.

There's no elite mens basketball players being denied compensation for more than the 1 year that the NBA and NBAPA makes them wait. And if any "monopoly" exists, it's not from anything the NCAA does, it's from the pro leagues refusing to accept younger players. Most of the NCAA would be happy to be rid of 1-and-done basketball players. The NCAA didn't create the one year rule. Nor does the NCAA bar women from turning pro less than four years from graduation. That's the WNBA and the players union that do that.

Notably, the number of elite baseball and hockey prospects (where there is a choice) who CHOOSE to go to college rather than sign a professional contract and go the farm system route has grown dramatically in recent years. Evidently, it's not nearly as bad a deal as you suggest it is.

And yes. People were harmed by EDD's decision. Geno mapped out his recruiting and roster based on her signing a contract to come play for UConn, and likely some other girl who desperately wanted that UConn offer didn't get it because EDD took it and then didn't use it. But no one stopped her from transferring. She like every other athlete was free to go to college wherever she wanted to go. And she still got to play four years of college basketball.
She just had to redshirt for a year.

Those rules are about bringing some modicum of order and balance to the sport. And the consequences were right there in black and white when the player and her parents signed. It's not like anyone is unaware of the rules.


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PostPosted: 06/13/17 4:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

http://ladyswish.blogspot.com/2017/06/the-transfer-game-in-wbb-lets-all-play.html?m=1
Durantula



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PostPosted: 06/13/17 7:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

#Occasionalwnbafan wrote:
http://ladyswish.blogspot.com/2017/06/the-transfer-game-in-wbb-lets-all-play.html?m=1


Interesting article and I agree with parts of it but I still believe transfers today are just taking the easy way out at the first sign of any inconvenience and I still don't believe they are any more likely to make a better decision when they transfer. They had years to be recruited in high school, took more visits, spoke to more coaches, that decision is more thought out than your typical transfer, announce you are leaving a school, get your release, speak to schools for a few days, take 1-2 visits max, and commit. Where is the research? I know high school kids who took 4-5 official visits, when was the last time a prominent transfer did that type of due diligence?

And if transfers are fine and we should be happy with them, then you can't have it both ways and criticize a coach every time someone transfers. Why be happy for the kid and mad for the coach? Tennessee fans should be happy Te'a Cooper wasn't restricted from going to an SEC school, but I don't think they are. Maine fans shouldn't be mad that half the team transferred, they just are finding their best options, right? Wasn't Sheryl Swoopes fired for mass transfers, amongst other things, like losing a lot of games?


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PostPosted: 06/13/17 7:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Unfettered college transfer just inherently isn't going to sit well with authoritarians.


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PostPosted: 06/13/17 10:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Durantula wrote:
Interesting article and I agree with parts of it but I still believe transfers today are just taking the easy way out at the first sign of any inconvenience

^^THIS^^ is key to the discussion, imo. And it informs your pondering here:
ClayK wrote:
I'm not sure why 18-year-olds are being compared to 8-year-olds. I'm not sure what age would qualify as being "mature enough" to make a decision about one's own life.


While there are WAY TOO MANY 'layers' to the entire question to really sort it all out here, the above is a key point: we have developed a culture of Self over all else, and that can be detrimental in all parts of life.

As a teacher, I was always favorably impressed by parents who TAUGHT THEIR CHILDREN THE VALUE OF COMMITMENT. If you sign up for flute lessons, you WILL finish the semester/year of lessons, and NOT quit because you don't like it after 3 weeks. If I paid for a season of soccer league, you will complete your commitment to the team, even if you're not the 'star' after 4 games. These are lessons an 8-year old can comprehend and benefit from.

When you say, "I'm not sure what age would qualify as being "mature enough" to make a decision about one's own life", I hope you realize that it's not about specific age/time formulas, but about learning standards along the way. An 18-year-old who has gone through the process of mutual recruitment by a school (hopefully, under good advisement from parents, etc.) can certainly be held accountable for knowing what a 4-year team commitment entails. Certainly not ALL kids will comprehend this, but neither is it an unreasonable expectation. The good news is the vast majority of kids DO make this 'deal' work.



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linkster



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PostPosted: 06/14/17 12:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Some recruits don't necessarily choose their program. Those under 18 need their parents approval and I'm sure some of them were under pressure.


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PostPosted: 06/14/17 9:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
As a teacher, I was always favorably impressed by parents who TAUGHT THEIR CHILDREN THE VALUE OF COMMITMENT.


That is your feeling, and you are certainly entitled to it -- and there's a lot to be said for it.

On the other hand, we have limited time and energy in our lives, and following through on a commitment that detracts from other potential life lessons, and other potential achievements, can be seen as a negative.

My point is this: Such decisions should be made, right or wrong, by the player and the family, and not be impacted by authoritarian rules, to use an adjective employed upthread.

Your bias in this issue is just as justified as mine, but neither of us, I don't think, should be able to impose that bias on other individuals.



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PostPosted: 06/14/17 10:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Maryland wing player Kiara Leslie is grad transferring to North Carolina State and will be eligible immediately. She played in 14-15, and 15-16 but set out last season with injury so will have two years eligibility remaining.



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PostPosted: 06/14/17 9:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
....but neither of us, I don't think, should be able to impose that bias on other individuals.

Agreed. I have no interest in imposing ANYTHING on kids I don't even know. Just commenting, really, on something I see as a societal trend that is questionable.



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PostPosted: 06/21/17 3:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

rumors starting about one of the country's top players skipping this season to play overseas & enter the draft in that order next season . Shocked I must say if this happens and its the player there saying i will never forgive the person in charge ! #EndOfStory Evil or Very Mad Arrow



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PostPosted: 06/21/17 3:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
rumors starting about one of the country's top players skipping there final season to play overseas & enter the draft in that order next season . Shocked I must say if this happens and its the player there saying i will never forgive the person in charge ! #EndOfStory Evil or Very Mad Arrow


Spill. Laughing Is it Diamond?


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PostPosted: 06/21/17 3:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

lynxmania wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
rumors starting about one of the country's top players skipping this season to play overseas & enter the draft in that order next season . Shocked I must say if this happens and its the player there saying i will never forgive the person in charge ! #EndOfStory Evil or Very Mad Arrow


Spill. Laughing Is it Diamond?


How Do you know its not Kelsey Or Aja Question I wont say until i get more information , but its not looking good but nothing confirmed.



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PostPosted: 06/21/17 4:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

DD leaving has vague rumor status on VN.


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