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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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 Posted: 02/06/17 5:22 pm ::: Pro-immigration Superbowl ads |
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I was pretty surprised at the strong statements presented by several large companies supporting immigrants and immigration in their Superbowl ads yesterday.
Anheuser-Busch (which has already resulted in a "boycott Budweiser" social media campaign from the white supremacist right wing)
Coca Cola
The #weaccept campaign from Airbnb
But the strongest statement didn't get aired because Fox and the NFL refused to air most of the 84 Lumber ad. I recommend watching the full ad at the company's website or at the link below. It's a powerful ad.
http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/watch-rejected-84-lumber-super-bowl-ad-with-trump-border-wall-w465106
But Trump & Co claim that the polls showing public opposition to his anti-immigration order is just "fake news". We all love him, right?
Remember the Bowling Green Massacre!
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mercfan3
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| Posted: 02/06/17 8:23 pm ::: Re: Pro-immigration Superbowl ads |
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| Corporations promoting ideals opposite of Trump suggests that ideas opposite of Trump are more popular.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 02/07/17 1:14 pm ::: |
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| Like all great things, immigration has to be continuously promoted as great.
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justintyme
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| Posted: 02/07/17 2:43 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| Like all great things, immigration has to be continuously promoted as great. |
Of course it does. Since the beginning of forever immigrants have been an easy target for scapegoating and bigotry. It takes telling the real story to counter that, at least for people with open minds.
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tfan
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| Posted: 02/07/17 3:51 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| Like all great things, immigration has to be continuously promoted as great. |
Of course it does. Since the beginning of forever immigrants have been an easy target for scapegoating and bigotry. It takes telling the real story to counter that, at least for people with open minds. |
No one has to continuously tell people how nice a raise is. No one can make a raise an "easy target" or "scapegoat" a raise. No one has to tell a "real story" about a raise. Because a raise is great. Immigration is only promoted as great (for existing citizens) by those with trained minds regarding a sacred cow.
Last edited by tfan on 02/07/17 4:01 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 02/07/17 3:53 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| Like all great things, immigration has to be continuously promoted as great. |
Of course it does. Since the beginning of forever immigrants have been an easy target for scapegoating and bigotry. It takes telling the real story to counter that, at least for people with open minds. |
You missed the point. If it was great, everyone would love it. No one has to tell people how nice a raise is. |
You mean all those pro-military ads are useless?
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 02/07/17 3:58 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| Like all great things, immigration has to be continuously promoted as great. |
Of course it does. Since the beginning of forever immigrants have been an easy target for scapegoating and bigotry. It takes telling the real story to counter that, at least for people with open minds. |
You missed the point. If it was great, everyone would love it. No one has to tell people how nice a raise is. |
You mean all those pro-military ads are useless? |
I doubt if they are useless, but the fact that the military has to be continuously promoted shows that it ain't all it's cracked up to be. Another sacred cow. I a always consider infinite immigration to be our sacredest cow, but now that you mention it, a large military could beat it.
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justintyme
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| Posted: 02/07/17 4:28 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| Like all great things, immigration has to be continuously promoted as great. |
Of course it does. Since the beginning of forever immigrants have been an easy target for scapegoating and bigotry. It takes telling the real story to counter that, at least for people with open minds. |
No one has to continuously tell people how nice a raise is. No one can make a raise an "easy target" or "scapegoat" a raise. No one has to tell a "real story" about a raise. Because a raise is great. Immigration is only promoted as great (for existing citizens) by those with trained minds regarding a sacred cow. |
This is not exactly true. Think about how many people are told--and believe it to be true--that "one should never discuss how much they make with co-workers". Yet that is counter-intuitive since it is in the company's interest to pay its workers as little as possible. When people discuss their wages, it is much harder for a person to be lowballed. This has led to a recent push by fomer secretaries of labor and other pro-worker groups to issue PSAs trying to get people to change their minds about this issue.
When there is a powerful push of propaganda or belief agaisnt a group, it is often that people do not see the reality behind the issue and instead accept some long-standing inaccurate idea. This means you have to "advertise" the new concept so that people can see all the sides to the issue and question why it is they believe a certain way.
Not to mention when you get into economics that is territory that the masses don't really understand. Newcomers to any group are easy targets for discrimination and scapegoating, and when it comes to immigration this is fed by overly simplistic economic logic that doesn't take into account all factors. Thus the need to "advertise" a good concept when it is being diminished by negative propaganda and armchair economics.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 02/07/17 4:45 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| Like all great things, immigration has to be continuously promoted as great. |
Of course it does. Since the beginning of forever immigrants have been an easy target for scapegoating and bigotry. It takes telling the real story to counter that, at least for people with open minds. |
No one has to continuously tell people how nice a raise is. No one can make a raise an "easy target" or "scapegoat" a raise. No one has to tell a "real story" about a raise. Because a raise is great. Immigration is only promoted as great (for existing citizens) by those with trained minds regarding a sacred cow. |
That's not true. Raises are also a focus of resentment and hostility. Perhaps the biggest cause of bad morale in most offices. Whenever someone else gets a raise, that is. When white collar workers get raises and blue collar don't, it's "the rich prosper and I get nothing". When the minimum wage is increased, it's "those people don't deserve it." When the guy in the next office get's a raise, it's "he kisses ass; I work harder than he does." When the woman down the hall gets a raise, it's either "they're giving all the money to undeserving women just to be PC" or "she's sleeping with the boss."
A raise is only "great" when it's in your paycheck. And even then, it's always less than what's "deserved."
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norwester
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
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| Posted: 02/07/17 5:03 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
That's not true. Raises are also a focus of resentment and hostility. Perhaps the biggest cause of bad morale in most offices. Whenever someone else gets a raise, that is. When white collar workers get raises and blue collar don't, it's "the rich prosper and I get nothing". When the minimum wage is increased, it's "those people don't deserve it." When the guy in the next office get's a raise, it's "he kisses ass; I work harder than he does." When the woman down the hall gets a raise, it's either "they're giving all the money to undeserving women just to be PC" or "she's sleeping with the boss."
A raise is only "great" when it's in your paycheck. And even then, it's always less than what's "deserved." |
This.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 02/07/17 7:44 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| Like all great things, immigration has to be continuously promoted as great. |
Of course it does. Since the beginning of forever immigrants have been an easy target for scapegoating and bigotry. It takes telling the real story to counter that, at least for people with open minds. |
No one has to continuously tell people how nice a raise is. No one can make a raise an "easy target" or "scapegoat" a raise. No one has to tell a "real story" about a raise. Because a raise is great. Immigration is only promoted as great (for existing citizens) by those with trained minds regarding a sacred cow. |
This is not exactly true. Think about how many people are told--and believe it to be true--that "one should never discuss how much they make with co-workers". Yet that is counter-intuitive since it is in the company's interest to pay its workers as little as possible. When people discuss their wages, it is much harder for a person to be lowballed. This has led to a recent push by fomer secretaries of labor and other pro-worker groups to issue PSAs trying to get people to change their minds about this issue. |
Telling people not to discuss their wages (or to discuss their wages) with co-workers is not an instance of raises being promoted.
| Quote: |
When there is a powerful push of propaganda or belief against a group, it is often that people do not see the reality behind the issue and instead accept some long-standing inaccurate idea. This means you have to "advertise" the new concept so that people can see all the sides to the issue and question why it is they believe a certain way. |
There is no public propaganda or "belief against a group" tolerated in modern America and yet we still see immigration being constantly promoted.
| Quote: |
| Not to mention when you get into economics that is territory that the masses don't really understand. Newcomers to any group are easy targets for discrimination and scapegoating, and when it comes to immigration this is fed by overly simplistic economic logic that doesn't take into account all factors. Thus the need to "advertise" a good concept when it is being diminished by negative propaganda and armchair economics. |
Unfortunately, economics is something that economists don't understand. Which is why politicians run on how well they will run the economy. Imagine a politician telling the public that they had the answer on how to build bridges (something that is well understood by experts).
But people understand when they are out of work or under-employed and they see immigrants employed. Or when they work or live with a bunch of immigrants who they can't even have a conversation with. Or when the kids of immigrants have formed gangs in the neighborhood.
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tfan
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| Posted: 02/07/17 7:48 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| Like all great things, immigration has to be continuously promoted as great. |
Of course it does. Since the beginning of forever immigrants have been an easy target for scapegoating and bigotry. It takes telling the real story to counter that, at least for people with open minds. |
No one has to continuously tell people how nice a raise is. No one can make a raise an "easy target" or "scapegoat" a raise. No one has to tell a "real story" about a raise. Because a raise is great. Immigration is only promoted as great (for existing citizens) by those with trained minds regarding a sacred cow. |
That's not true. Raises are also a focus of resentment and hostility. Perhaps the biggest cause of bad morale in most offices. Whenever someone else gets a raise, that is. When white collar workers get raises and blue collar don't, it's "the rich prosper and I get nothing". When the minimum wage is increased, it's "those people don't deserve it." When the guy in the next office get's a raise, it's "he kisses ass; I work harder than he does." When the woman down the hall gets a raise, it's either "they're giving all the money to undeserving women just to be PC" or "she's sleeping with the boss."
A raise is only "great" when it's in your paycheck. And even then, it's always less than what's "deserved." |
I am referring to a raise that someone gets. You don't have to tell someone to like getting a raise.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 02/07/17 8:15 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| Like all great things, immigration has to be continuously promoted as great. |
Of course it does. Since the beginning of forever immigrants have been an easy target for scapegoating and bigotry. It takes telling the real story to counter that, at least for people with open minds. |
No one has to continuously tell people how nice a raise is. No one can make a raise an "easy target" or "scapegoat" a raise. No one has to tell a "real story" about a raise. Because a raise is great. Immigration is only promoted as great (for existing citizens) by those with trained minds regarding a sacred cow. |
That's not true. Raises are also a focus of resentment and hostility. Perhaps the biggest cause of bad morale in most offices. Whenever someone else gets a raise, that is. When white collar workers get raises and blue collar don't, it's "the rich prosper and I get nothing". When the minimum wage is increased, it's "those people don't deserve it." When the guy in the next office get's a raise, it's "he kisses ass; I work harder than he does." When the woman down the hall gets a raise, it's either "they're giving all the money to undeserving women just to be PC" or "she's sleeping with the boss."
A raise is only "great" when it's in your paycheck. And even then, it's always less than what's "deserved." |
I am referring to a raise that someone gets. You don't have to tell someone to like getting a raise. |
You don't have to tell someone who's wanted to come to the US that it's great to get a visa either. That's the only equivalent. I suspect you're mixing apples and oranges.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 02/07/17 8:25 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
Telling people not to discuss their wages (or to discuss their wages) with co-workers is not an instance of raises being promoted.
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You are getting too wrapped up in your analogy and are forgetting what your original argument was. Younare suggesting that if something is "good" it will be accepted as such and no advertising would be necessary. My example was something tangential to your "raise" analogy but was addressing your original flawed logic.
Sharing wage information is the self-interest of workers. Yet most workers do not understand this and accept the traditional position that it is private information not to be discussed. Thus the need to "advertise" its advantages.
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tfan
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| Posted: 02/07/17 8:28 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| Like all great things, immigration has to be continuously promoted as great. |
Of course it does. Since the beginning of forever immigrants have been an easy target for scapegoating and bigotry. It takes telling the real story to counter that, at least for people with open minds. |
No one has to continuously tell people how nice a raise is. No one can make a raise an "easy target" or "scapegoat" a raise. No one has to tell a "real story" about a raise. Because a raise is great. Immigration is only promoted as great (for existing citizens) by those with trained minds regarding a sacred cow. |
That's not true. Raises are also a focus of resentment and hostility. Perhaps the biggest cause of bad morale in most offices. Whenever someone else gets a raise, that is. When white collar workers get raises and blue collar don't, it's "the rich prosper and I get nothing". When the minimum wage is increased, it's "those people don't deserve it." When the guy in the next office get's a raise, it's "he kisses ass; I work harder than he does." When the woman down the hall gets a raise, it's either "they're giving all the money to undeserving women just to be PC" or "she's sleeping with the boss."
A raise is only "great" when it's in your paycheck. And even then, it's always less than what's "deserved." |
I am referring to a raise that someone gets. You don't have to tell someone to like getting a raise. |
You don't have to tell someone who's wanted to come to the US that it's great to get a visa either. That's the only equivalent. I suspect you're mixing apples and oranges. |
A raise is universally considered good. You saying "but people are jealous if others get one", doesn't demonstrate they aren't universally considered good. It demonstrates the opposite - people aren't jealous of someone getting something that is bad. Your suspicions are misplaced.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 02/07/17 8:31 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
Telling people not to discuss their wages (or to discuss their wages) with co-workers is not an instance of raises being promoted.
|
You are getting too wrapped up in your analogy and are forgetting what your original argument was. Younare suggesting that if something is "good" it will be accepted as such and no advertising would be necessary. My example was something tangential to your "raise" analogy but was addressing your original flawed logic. |
I think your addressing of "my original flawed logic" was original flawed logic.
| Quote: |
| Sharing wage information is the self-interest of workers. Yet most workers do not understand this and accept the traditional position that it is private information not to be discussed. |
We are talking about two different things. Me: raises. You: discussion of raises.
But I would agree that if a company tells it's employees not to discuss their wages, the employees should indignantly disregard. But there is a problem in that some people will lie about their raise (could go either way too). I would only share my raise information with work frieesnds who I felt would give me an honest answer about what they got.
The HR department position seems to be to make everyone feel that they are rated higher than they are so you have a happy workforce that isn't sending out resumes. "Excellent" means "good", "good" means "average", "OK", means "bad" etc. on reviews.
Last edited by tfan on 02/07/17 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 02/07/17 8:42 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
But people understand when they are out of work or under-employed and they see immigrants employed. Or when they work or live with a bunch of immigrants who they can't even have a conversation with. Or when the kids of immigrants have formed gangs in the neighborhood. |
Which explains exactly why these groups are denigrated within certain subsets of America. And also why advertising is necessary. This is "armchair economics" combined with faulty assumptions and some implicit bigotry (as in why does it matter if we can "have a conversation with them?).
There are much deeper market forces at work and being fed by immigration than what the average person sees when looking only at their employment status versus that of an immigrant.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 02/07/17 8:44 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| Sharing wage information is the self-interest of workers. Yet most workers do not understand this and accept the traditional position that it is private information not to be discussed. Thus the need to "advertise" its advantages. |
Or work for companies that make it a violation of company policy to share information about compensation. I'm not sure where that fits into the metaphor, though, so carry on.
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tfan
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| Posted: 02/07/17 8:45 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
But people understand when they are out of work or under-employed and they see immigrants employed. Or when they work or live with a bunch of immigrants who they can't even have a conversation with. Or when the kids of immigrants have formed gangs in the neighborhood. |
Which explains exactly why these groups are denigrated within certain subsets of America. And also why advertising is necessary. This is "armchair economics" combined with faulty assumptions and some implicit bigotry (as in why does it matter if we can "have a conversation with them?). |
It isn't "armhair economics" anymore than feeling something bad has happened after getting hit in the mouth is "armchair doctoring". Having a conversation with your neighbor is one of the pleasantries of life. Try it sometime.
| Quote: |
There are much deeper market forces at work and being fed by immigration than what the average person sees when looking only at their employment status versus that of an immigrant. |
Yeah, population growth makes rich people richer. A deep market force that the people taking the brunt of immigration could care less about.
Last edited by tfan on 02/07/17 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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Location: Northfield, MN
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| Posted: 02/07/17 8:51 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
I think your addressing of "my original flawed logic" was original flawed logic.
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It really isn't.
Your position seems to be "if it is good, people will know it is and won't need to be convinced of it".
That is patently untrue.
In fact it is so flawed logically that it has an entire logical fallacy named after it: argumentum ad populum.
The number of people who believe something to be true has no relation to the truth value of a statement.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 02/07/17 8:54 pm ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| Sharing wage information is the self-interest of workers. Yet most workers do not understand this and accept the traditional position that it is private information not to be discussed. Thus the need to "advertise" its advantages. |
Or work for companies that make it a violation of company policy to share information about compensation. I'm not sure where that fits into the metaphor, though, so carry on. |
That is actually against the law.
https://www.govdocs.com/can-employees-discuss-pay-salaries/
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 02/07/17 10:59 pm ::: |
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I blame scum like the Koch bros and multinational corps, their welfare and their bought and paid for (mostly) Republican politicians for most of the economic woes of the so-called working class. (That means you 50+ white idiots who voted for Chump.)
With the current administration being loaded with million and billionaires and corporate/wall st. scum, and the Republican corporate whores in complete Washington power, expect things to get worse.
But you'll be able to wear your baseball caps w/ pride when the US attacks some middle east country or the ban is reinstated.
Proud to be Amurican!
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tfan
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| Posted: 02/08/17 1:14 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
I think your addressing of "my original flawed logic" was original flawed logic.
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It really isn't.
Your position seems to be "if it is good, people will know it is and won't need to be convinced of it".
That is patently untrue.
In fact it is so flawed logically that it has an entire logical fallacy named after it: argumentum ad populum.
The number of people who believe something to be true has no relation to the truth value of a statement. |
This isn't about "believing something to be true" as in did Christ exist or is their CO2 causing global warming for most people (in your case, as a professor in Minnesota it may be mostly theoretical or belief based). This is experiencing something and having an opinion on your experience. Far from being "argumentum ad populum" it is "argumentum ad been-there-done-that-got-the-t-shirt", which is not a logical fallacy because it isn't an argument. It is an opinion about liking or not liking something tangible on personal experience.
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hyperetic
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 02/08/17 2:13 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| Like all great things, immigration has to be continuously promoted as great. |
Its...promoted...on...the Statue of Liberty...
It was considered great for such a long time, whether the first inhabitants or the forced immigrants disagreed.
The industrial era brought mass immigration. There was a little dustup then but not to the extent today.
Immigration is part of what helped build this country and made it what it is today.
In general, who are the people complaining about immigration these days? |
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 02/08/17 2:21 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| tfan wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
I think your addressing of "my original flawed logic" was original flawed logic.
|
It really isn't.
Your position seems to be "if it is good, people will know it is and won't need to be convinced of it".
That is patently untrue.
In fact it is so flawed logically that it has an entire logical fallacy named after it: argumentum ad populum.
The number of people who believe something to be true has no relation to the truth value of a statement. |
This isn't about "believing something to be true" as in did Christ exist or is their CO2 causing global warming for most people (in your case, as a professor in Minnesota it may be mostly theoretical or belief based). This is experiencing something and having an opinion on your experience. Far from being "argumentum ad populum" it is "argumentum ad been-there-done-that-got-the-t-shirt", which is not a logical fallacy because it isn't an argument. It is an opinion about liking or not liking something tangible on personal experience. |
Huh? We are talking about whether or not something is "great". Your original position was that is something is "great" people won't need to be convinced of it. But if we are just discussing opinion, this position becomes meaningless nonsense. The whole point of advertising is to change people's opinion on a matter, to convince them of something, or to give them additional information beyond the scope of their personal experiences. If everyone believed something to already be "great" there would be no need for it. So if this is all you were arguing, and your conclusion was simply that not everyone loves immigration, and you were not trying to insinuate any conclusions about the real value of immigration and how "great" it objectively is, then okay. Water is also wet.
However, if when you wrote "If it was great, everyone would love it", you were making a claim about its intrinsic value, then you are using argumentum ad populum. Not all objectively "great" things are seen as such by everyone.
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