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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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 Posted: 02/13/17 11:38 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| You are applying a significance to the word "breed" that doesn't exist. Your position is specious. I suggest you go read a couple texts on genetics and come back after you have some clue what the hell you're talking about. |
I am sure that someone looking for a dog that could track a killer from a crime scene would see a significance to the word breed, even if you can't. But it is a distraction. You brought up dogs in trying to make some kind of case for your diversity comment, which is the only reason we are talking about them. I am perfectly willing to only talk about humans.
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I'm not wasting any more time trying to educate you.
Maybe you could start a new thread trying to convince us the world is flat. |
I guess that is how a former lawyer says he doesn't want to try and defend his comment about diversity. |
I know I said no more, but when you throw a softball like that I just have to crush it out of the park.
Yep, someone looking to track a criminal would pick out a dog that as a result of genetics has a characteristic of a particularly keen sense of smell. Just as someone looking to build a basketball team would pick out a human that as a result of genetics has a characteristic of being seven feet tall. Exact same thing. Really easy example. Thank you for helping to so easily prove my point.
Oh, and as a lawyer, the judge would have ruled in my favor and thrown your case out loooooong ago.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 02/13/17 11:51 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| You are applying a significance to the word "breed" that doesn't exist. Your position is specious. I suggest you go read a couple texts on genetics and come back after you have some clue what the hell you're talking about. |
I am sure that someone looking for a dog that could track a killer from a crime scene would see a significance to the word breed, even if you can't. But it is a distraction. You brought up dogs in trying to make some kind of case for your diversity comment, which is the only reason we are talking about them. I am perfectly willing to only talk about humans.
| Quote: |
I'm not wasting any more time trying to educate you.
Maybe you could start a new thread trying to convince us the world is flat. |
I guess that is how a former lawyer says he doesn't want to try and defend his comment about diversity. |
I know I said no more, but when you throw a softball like that I just have to crush it out of the park.
Yep, someone looking to track a criminal would pick out a dog that as a result of genetics has a characteristic of a particularly keen sense of smell. |
But there would be a limitation to dogs of certain breeds only. Distinct subsets of the dog species. Which you would expect to be true given that these breeds came with "human usable" characteristics came about from purposeful breeding. So dogs probably shouldn't have been brought into the discussion.
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| Just as someone looking to build a basketball team would pick out a human that as a result of genetics has a characteristic of being seven feet tall. |
The person would need more than height of course, but If that player can be found in any race/ethnicity then the comparison to crime dogs appears to be invalid. And saying that any race/ethnicity can potentially provide an NBA center doesn't seem to help the case for the output of a racially/ethnically diverse group exceeding the output of a non-diverse group.
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Exact same thing. Really easy example. Thank you for helping to so easily prove my point. |
Not sure what point you proved . Did you prove that there is no difference between the races? If so, then I think you have also shown racial/ethnic diversity makes no difference in the the outcome of a group.
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Oh, and as a lawyer, the judge would have ruled in my favor and thrown your case out
loooooong ago. |
Never been a lawyer, but I suspect a judge would have noticed your repetitive "dogs are same species" talk and struck that down forcing you to take a different route.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 02/14/17 2:21 pm ::: |
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| Racial and ethnic diversity are irrelevant. Cultural diversity is what makes America great.
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norwester
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
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| Posted: 02/14/17 6:18 pm ::: |
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tfan, are you arguing for no immigration, or are you arguing for getting rid of cultural and ethnic diversity among Americans (of which there is quite a bit)?
I really can't remember/figure it out based on the current argument, so I'm unsure what to even say to further the discussion. You tried to make the point that it was racist to insist on diversity, I think, but correct me if I'm wrong.
To refer back to a prior post of mine that seems to have gone off the rails, I only brought up biological diversity as an example of how objective (scientific methodology) analysis shows that diversity in a system makes for a stronger system.
To take it solely out of the realm of biology, there are plenty of studies out there regarding the competitive advantages of a well-integrated social structure as well. For example, teams in business: I'm not practicing misandry by acknowledging that teams with at least one woman tend to perform better in a business setting.
Also, I'm not going to use a mechanical engineer to design a building or a structural engineer to design an HVAC system, but that doesn't mean that I don't value their skill sets and knowledge. I'm not placing one above the other in importance, just because one's skills suit a specific situation more. You'd better bet that I'd want both sorts on my team if I wanted to design a whole building.
I mean, we can take it to a basketball place too, since sports came up. You wouldn't be a very successful team if you had 5 centers on the floor and were competing against a more traditional/diversified team of guards, forwards and a center. It doesn't mean that I hate centers, or value their height and back-to-the-basket skills if I build a team that also has other types of players.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 02/16/17 7:17 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Racial and ethnic diversity are irrelevant. Cultural diversity is what makes America great. |
Other than cuisine and music like R&B, what are examples of cultural diversity in the USA?
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 02/16/17 7:32 am ::: |
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| norwester wrote: |
| tfan, are you arguing for no immigration, or are you arguing for getting rid of cultural and ethnic diversity among Americans (of which there is quite a bit)? |
ArtBest23 appeared to praise diversity (which I took as referring to racial/ethinic diversity) in a post that denounced haters and xenophobes (actually redundant since xenophobe is used today as "h-ater" not "fear of foreigners"). So I challenged the frequently expressed notion that a country is better if it has a racial/ethnic mix versus as country that has no mix. (I had to write h-ater because the board software changed the correctly spelled word to "person with an opinion different than mine").
| Quote: |
| I really can't remember/figure it out based on the current argument, so I'm unsure what to even say to further the discussion. You tried to make the point that it was racist to insist on diversity, I think, but correct me if I'm wrong. |
No, I was making the point that it is racist to promote diversity as being better (as opposed to fairer - everyone gets a seat at the table) than non-diversity. Suggesting a group increases in capability due to racial/ethinc diversity has an implied difference between the races, which appears to be textbook racism.
| Quote: |
| Also, I'm not going to use a mechanical engineer to design a building or a structural engineer to design an HVAC system, but that doesn't mean that I don't value their skill sets and knowledge. I'm not placing one above the other in importance, just because one's skills suit a specific situation more. You'd better bet that I'd want both sorts on my team if I wanted to design a whole building. |
Are you suggesting that different races/ethnicities excel at different things?
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 02/16/17 9:49 am ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Racial and ethnic diversity are irrelevant. Cultural diversity is what makes America great. |
Other than cuisine and music like R&B, what are examples of cultural diversity in the USA? |
How about the birth control pill? Invented in Mexico in the 1950's.
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norwester
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
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| Posted: 02/16/17 4:24 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Also, I'm not going to use a mechanical engineer to design a building or a structural engineer to design an HVAC system, but that doesn't mean that I don't value their skill sets and knowledge. I'm not placing one above the other in importance, just because one's skills suit a specific situation more. You'd better bet that I'd want both sorts on my team if I wanted to design a whole building. |
Are you suggesting that different races/ethnicities excel at different things? |
No, I'm suggesting (if we bring it back into the social sphere and discussion of ethnicity and race and the benefits to society), people from different backgrounds, stations in life, with different beliefs, or who have had to solve problems in different ways ancestrally, historically or recently due to limitations of resources, geography, religious belief, etc...I'm saying the experience of all of these people is powerful and important, and something you don't get with a non-diverse or a closed society.
This has nothing to do with supposed superiority of any one race or ethnicity over another. This is the fact that no one person or community knows everything. This is the realization that a collective, diverse society that has learned healthy integration* is stronger than the sum of its parts. It's learned to accept difference and maximize strengths making it not only more resilient to challenge, but richer in nuance and tradition in everyday life. Such a society is positioned better to be able to use a wider variety of resources to solve complex and varied problems, than the society that doesn't stretch itself beyond preconceived mono-traditional boundaries.
It's like crowd-sourcing, versus trying to overcome a challenge by yourself. Like how (to use a silly example) within hours of a popular current video game releasing some new puzzle/quest a Reddit community has worked together virtually (made up of an international population) to solve said problem, versus my childhood when it was just my family and me painstakingly mapping something out on dot-matrix printer paper, and lording that solution over our neighbors.
It's not so much about any one race or ethnicity and its superiority as a removal of barriers to participation in collective problem-solving.
*there is a point at which a homogenous society becomes integrated in which traditions and social order break down before new social contracts and linkages take their place.
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norwester
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
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| Posted: 02/16/17 4:55 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Racial and ethnic diversity are irrelevant. Cultural diversity is what makes America great. |
Other than cuisine and music like R&B, what are examples of cultural diversity in the USA? |
You can split it up in a lot of different ways. There are some very distinct regions/cultures in the US that haven't actually changed much since their original founding, and are to this day profoundly influenced by those original ideals and values in many ways. These cultures vary based on how much they value diversity versus how aggressively they assimilate foreigners, education, political activism, top-down versus local control, individual rights versus the "greater good".
The Northeast/New England, New York City, Middle Atlantic, Middle America, Deep South, Appalachia, Louisiana, Southern Florida, West, Southwest, and West Coast areas all have general cultural characteristics that are distinct from one another.
Have I understood what you meant by "culture"? Or do you want more about cultural benefits and discoveries?
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 02/17/17 12:03 am ::: |
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| norwester wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Racial and ethnic diversity are irrelevant. Cultural diversity is what makes America great. |
Other than cuisine and music like R&B, what are examples of cultural diversity in the USA? |
You can split it up in a lot of different ways. There are some very distinct regions/cultures in the US that haven't actually changed much since their original founding, and are to this day profoundly influenced by those original ideals and values in many ways. These cultures vary based on how much they value diversity versus how aggressively they assimilate foreigners, education, political activism, top-down versus local control, individual rights versus the "greater good".
The Northeast/New England, New York City, Middle Atlantic, Middle America, Deep South, Appalachia, Louisiana, Southern Florida, West, Southwest, and West Coast areas all have general cultural characteristics that are distinct from one another.
Have I understood what you meant by "culture"? Or do you want more about cultural benefits and discoveries? |
OK, there are regional differences in the USA. I was thinking about cultural practices coming from around the world and becoming a part of the mainstream USA culture. Like the USA culture changing from something brought from their culture by Chinese or Italians, for example. I guess some of regional differences have their root in foreign cultures (other than German/English founders), particularly areas like New York.
Last edited by tfan on 02/17/17 1:17 am; edited 3 times in total |
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 02/17/17 12:08 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Racial and ethnic diversity are irrelevant. Cultural diversity is what makes America great. |
Other than cuisine and music like R&B, what are examples of cultural diversity in the USA? |
How about the birth control pill? Invented in Mexico in the 1950's. |
Even if inventions are culture, I thought that US cultural diversity would be based on people bringing and practicing the culture in the USA and having it influence the dominant US culture. With an invention, everyone in the world would get the culture, regardless of whether they had people from that culture in their country. That is, every country would be culturally diverse by using inventions from other countries.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 02/17/17 9:31 am ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Racial and ethnic diversity are irrelevant. Cultural diversity is what makes America great. |
Other than cuisine and music like R&B, what are examples of cultural diversity in the USA? |
How about the birth control pill? Invented in Mexico in the 1950's. |
Even if inventions are culture, I thought that US cultural diversity would be based on people bringing and practicing the culture in the USA and having it influence the dominant US culture. With an invention, everyone in the world would get the culture, regardless of whether they had people from that culture in their country. That is, every country would be culturally diverse by using inventions from other countries. |
The birth control pill was invented in Mexico, by a team of scientists from Austria, China, Hungary, Mexico, and the USA. Only by bringing people in from all those diverse cultures could it be done.
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norwester
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
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| Posted: 02/17/17 11:53 am ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Racial and ethnic diversity are irrelevant. Cultural diversity is what makes America great. |
Other than cuisine and music like R&B, what are examples of cultural diversity in the USA? |
How about the birth control pill? Invented in Mexico in the 1950's. |
Even if inventions are culture, I thought that US cultural diversity would be based on people bringing and practicing the culture in the USA and having it influence the dominant US culture. With an invention, everyone in the world would get the culture, regardless of whether they had people from that culture in their country. That is, every country would be culturally diverse by using inventions from other countries. |
Perhaps every country is culturally diverse. I would suggest that the idea of one monolithic US culture is a huge myth. There is a generally overarching American identity that may tie our regionally-diverse country together, but we are much less cohesive as a whole (and always have been), than many other countries appear to me from the outside (meaning I could be wrong; other countries could have diversity that I don't appreciate; I do know, for instance, that China is made up of many very distinct regions and cultures, as is India, even though as an outsider I latch on to one or two general characteristics that in error suggest a monolithic population).
In general, I gather from reading perspectives from people from Canada and various European nations about us, Americans do value a sort of individualism and self-sufficiency, a sort of cheerful "can do" attitude, that exist in a particular combination that is recognizable overseas. I don't know how different this actually is from other countries. But there is something singular about the US that stems from our "founding" by immigrants wherein if you move here, become a citizen, and adopt our "creed" you're an American. By contrast you can move to France and become a citizen, but it's much more difficult to be accepted as "a Frenchman".
I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind excluding food and music. At least not in the context of how the US has been influenced (e.g. teriyaki, sushi, BBQ, tacos, jazz, blues, rock and roll). But I can take your point, as it follows mine more closely, about being able to "problem solve", which mean things beyond these fundamental building blocks of society.
Anyway, I'll list some off the top of my head, though I guess some of it you may classify as coming with immigrants at the founding. I've tried not to include those things, but I'm not perfect. Also, I figure I could come up with more substantive ones (particularly in areas of science, technology and medicine) with a little research:
Yoga, martial arts, acupuncture, massage, atomic bombs, piñatas, terraced farming, public education, American Ninja Warrior (haha, couldn't resist), multiple game shows based on Japanese game shows, console video games (Nintendo, Playstation), Pokémon, lacrosse, basketball (invented by a Canadian), cowboys...
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 02/18/17 5:53 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Racial and ethnic diversity are irrelevant. Cultural diversity is what makes America great. |
Other than cuisine and music like R&B, what are examples of cultural diversity in the USA? |
How about the birth control pill? Invented in Mexico in the 1950's. |
Even if inventions are culture, I thought that US cultural diversity would be based on people bringing and practicing the culture in the USA and having it influence the dominant US culture. With an invention, everyone in the world would get the culture, regardless of whether they had people from that culture in their country. That is, every country would be culturally diverse by using inventions from other countries. |
The birth control pill was invented in Mexico, by a team of scientists from Austria, China, Hungary, Mexico, and the USA. Only by bringing people in from all those diverse cultures could it be done. |
I would say it this way - it was an effort of multiple scientists who were born in different countries. I highly doubt that the culture of China (or any other country) - whatever that is - was necessary to invent the birth control pill.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 02/18/17 6:01 pm ::: |
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| norwester wrote: |
| But there is something singular about the US that stems from our "founding" by immigrants wherein if you move here, become a citizen, and adopt our "creed" you're an America.. |
I don't agree with the notion that we were founded by immigrants. We were founded by conquerers. They killed and displaced the Native Americans. That continued even after the country was founded as it moved across the continent. Most of us couldn't watch any film (were it to exist) of what happened to the people that lived here when the English arrived.
| Quote: |
| Yoga, martial arts, acupuncture, massage, atomic bombs, piñatas, terraced farming, public education, American Ninja Warrior (haha, couldn't resist), multiple game shows based on Japanese game shows, console video games (Nintendo, Playstation), Pokémon, lacrosse, basketball (invented by a Canadian), cowboys... |
If someone doesn't immigrate and give us the culture, I don't see it as something that we can crow about as justifying our infinite immigration. For example, Japanese people didn't bring us any game shows. Somebody in Hollywood saw it and decided to do a US version.
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Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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| Posted: 02/18/17 6:47 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Racial and ethnic diversity are irrelevant. Cultural diversity is what makes America great. |
Other than cuisine and music like R&B, what are examples of cultural diversity in the USA? |
How about the birth control pill? Invented in Mexico in the 1950's. |
Even if inventions are culture, I thought that US cultural diversity would be based on people bringing and practicing the culture in the USA and having it influence the dominant US culture. With an invention, everyone in the world would get the culture, regardless of whether they had people from that culture in their country. That is, every country would be culturally diverse by using inventions from other countries. |
The birth control pill was invented in Mexico, by a team of scientists from Austria, China, Hungary, Mexico, and the USA. Only by bringing people in from all those diverse cultures could it be done. |
I would say it this way - it was an effort of multiple scientists who were born in different countries. I highly doubt that the culture of China (or any other country) - whatever that is - was necessary to invent the birth control pill. |
China was the first country to pass a population of a billion people, so maybe Chinese culture wasn't necessary to invent the pill but I can see how it could have provided a *lot* of the motivating force to get it done 
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 02/19/17 8:23 am ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Racial and ethnic diversity are irrelevant. Cultural diversity is what makes America great. |
Other than cuisine and music like R&B, what are examples of cultural diversity in the USA? |
How about the birth control pill? Invented in Mexico in the 1950's. |
Even if inventions are culture, I thought that US cultural diversity would be based on people bringing and practicing the culture in the USA and having it influence the dominant US culture. With an invention, everyone in the world would get the culture, regardless of whether they had people from that culture in their country. That is, every country would be culturally diverse by using inventions from other countries. |
The birth control pill was invented in Mexico, by a team of scientists from Austria, China, Hungary, Mexico, and the USA. Only by bringing people in from all those diverse cultures could it be done. |
I would say it this way - it was an effort of multiple scientists who were born in different countries. I highly doubt that the culture of China (or any other country) - whatever that is - was necessary to invent the birth control pill. |
So scientists are not a part of the culture?
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9609
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| Posted: 02/19/17 7:41 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| pilight wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Racial and ethnic diversity are irrelevant. Cultural diversity is what makes America great. |
Other than cuisine and music like R&B, what are examples of cultural diversity in the USA? |
How about the birth control pill? Invented in Mexico in the 1950's. |
Even if inventions are culture, I thought that US cultural diversity would be based on people bringing and practicing the culture in the USA and having it influence the dominant US culture. With an invention, everyone in the world would get the culture, regardless of whether they had people from that culture in their country. That is, every country would be culturally diverse by using inventions from other countries. |
The birth control pill was invented in Mexico, by a team of scientists from Austria, China, Hungary, Mexico, and the USA. Only by bringing people in from all those diverse cultures could it be done. |
I would say it this way - it was an effort of multiple scientists who were born in different countries. I highly doubt that the culture of China (or any other country) - whatever that is - was necessary to invent the birth control pill. |
So scientists are not a part of the culture? |
They are part of their culture when they are in China. They only influence a scientific effort in Mexico with Chinese culture when they introduce some Chinese culture into the work effort. I don't consider studying chemistry or other science a cultural endeavour unless they do it differently in a culture and it has better results than normal.
I consider culture to be a particular practice or behavior done by the people in a certain country. If, for example, most Chinese get up in the morning and do Tai Chi and the Chinese scientist or scientists convinced the group - after months of failing to invent the pill - to do it each morning. And the scientists all said they felt more refreshed going to work after the Tai Chi and then suddenly they had a breakthrough. I would consider that an example of Chinese culture being involved in the inventing the pill. If on the other hand, only the Chinese scientist(s) practiced Tai Chi, then we don't know if Chinese culture had a positive effect until we can demonstrate that Tai Chi improves scientific performance.
However, there could be more general cultural things, like one culture works harder, or concentrates better so I can't rule out something like that having an effect, if present
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 02/19/17 9:01 pm ::: |
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| Lol. The lines of creative "logic" that are being used here to attempt to reach a specific conclusion are ones to make team Trump proud.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 02/19/17 10:12 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| Lol. The lines of creative "logic" that are being used here to attempt to reach a specific conclusion are ones to make team Trump proud. |
Lol. The lines of creative "logic" that are being used here to attempt to reach a specific conclusion are ones to make team Clinton proud.
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