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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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 Posted: 02/23/17 12:49 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest, any thoughts on Rob Clough's selections?
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 02/23/17 1:14 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| ArtBest, any thoughts on Rob Clough's selections? |
Underwhelmed.
Too much reliance on scoring, too little thought.
It's obvious from his frequent use of "she's the top scorer on. . ."
It's easy, I suppose, but it produces a badly flawed list.
Also I don't understand Semrau for COY. Moore is an easy pick for that.
He says he relies on stats. I think be relies way too much on stats and way too
Iittle on actually watching games and players.
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Fighting Artichoke
Joined: 12 Dec 2012
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| Posted: 02/23/17 1:38 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| ArtBest, any thoughts on Rob Clough's selections? |
As one example of ArtBest's point, despite her scoring advantage over Marina Mabrey, Arike has many defensive lapses that hurt the team, whereas Mabrey is far better defensively. Rob has Arike as second team and leaves Marina off the team. While Arike's athleticism and potential is great, Marina has been a better player for Notre Dame this season. Getting beat on defense does not show up in stats. Marina has also been more clutch with her scoring. Bad things usually happen when Arike forces her offense.
And I think Lindsay Allen is better than a possible third team inclusion. How many guards have more assists or rebounds and are so important to their team's success? I would include Lindsay before any Notre Dame player besides probably Turner.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 02/23/17 2:15 pm ::: |
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| Fighting Artichoke wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| ArtBest, any thoughts on Rob Clough's selections? |
As one example of ArtBest's point, despite her scoring advantage over Marina Mabrey, Arike has many defensive lapses that hurt the team, whereas Mabrey is far better defensively. Rob has Arike as second team and leaves Marina off the team. While Arike's athleticism and potential is great, Marina has been a better player for Notre Dame this season. Getting beat on defense does not show up in stats. Marina has also been more clutch with her scoring. Bad things usually happen when Arike forces her offense.
And I think Lindsay Allen is better than a possible third team inclusion. How many guards have more assists or rebounds and are so important to their team's success? I would include Lindsay before any Notre Dame player besides probably Turner. |
It's not just ND players. Durr isn't close to the top five. Spencer is the best player from NCSt. Thomas is a fine player but certainly doesn't belong on here to the exclusion of Motley, who remains the heart and soul of that team even if she wasn't as dominant this year as sometimes in the past. Having Durr and Moore and leaving out Hines-Allen is similar. It's like he just wants to show that his list is "different" than what others will likely be or contrarian, as if that makes it better. It doesn't. It just makes it weak. But listing a "tie" between Allen and Paris Kea for the last spot on the third team is one of the most asinine things I've ever seen on one of these lists.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 02/24/17 8:51 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Fighting Artichoke wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| ArtBest, any thoughts on Rob Clough's selections? |
As one example of ArtBest's point, despite her scoring advantage over Marina Mabrey, Arike has many defensive lapses that hurt the team, whereas Mabrey is far better defensively. Rob has Arike as second team and leaves Marina off the team. While Arike's athleticism and potential is great, Marina has been a better player for Notre Dame this season. Getting beat on defense does not show up in stats. Marina has also been more clutch with her scoring. Bad things usually happen when Arike forces her offense.
And I think Lindsay Allen is better than a possible third team inclusion. How many guards have more assists or rebounds and are so important to their team's success? I would include Lindsay before any Notre Dame player besides probably Turner. |
It's not just ND players. Durr isn't close to the top five. Spencer is the best player from NCSt. Thomas is a fine player but certainly doesn't belong on here to the exclusion of Motley, who remains the heart and soul of that team even if she wasn't as dominant this year as sometimes in the past. Having Durr and Moore and leaving out Hines-Allen is similar. It's like he just wants to show that his list is "different" than what others will likely be or contrarian, as if that makes it better. It doesn't. It just makes it weak. But listing a "tie" between Allen and Paris Kea for the last spot on the third team is one of the most asinine things I've ever seen on one of these lists. |
If you had bothered to read the detailed explanation, you'll see that it's not really a tie between Allen and Paris Kea, but rather, that final spot will be decided by play in the last two games of the season.
But reading comprehension has never been your strong suit.
The real issue is that Notre Dame will not dominate the awards this year, just like they did not completely dominate the ACC this season. Hurts, don't it? ND fans were proclaiming they had the three of the best frosh in the league and thought FOY would be decided among their three. But, in fact, only one of the three - Jackie Young - produced anywhere close to the predictions.
Since I know Rob C, I also know he watches as much game tape as he can get his hands on and keeps his own stats on every game he watches as well as notes on anything - positive or negative - that isn't captured by stats. These include things like missing a defensive assignment, causing a disruption on defense that leads to a turnover (without being credited with a steal), making a spectacular pass that few players would even see, let alone be able to execute. He also looks to see which players are actually leading the team on and off the floor, which players come through with the game on the line, etc. After pouring over all his notes and statistics he goes with his gut.
You can certainly disagree with his picks, but calling him lazy is utterly ridiculous and shows your own bias.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 02/24/17 9:10 pm ::: |
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Other than this comment: "But reading comprehension has never been your strong suit. "
this is interesting commentary. It would be nice to keep the inflammatory stuff out of it, and nice if Art doesn't feel compelled to flame back....but I suppose that is too much to ask.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 02/24/17 10:24 pm ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
Other than this comment: "But reading comprehension has never been your strong suit. "
this is interesting commentary. It would be nice to keep the inflammatory stuff out of it, and nice if Art doesn't feel compelled to flame back....but I suppose that is too much to ask. |
Notre Dame has lost two games in four years of playing in the ACC. I'm not the one in pain; I'm laughing.
I was ignoring Clough's list as I do most of his stuff. I often find it shallow and frequently wrong. I was asked by CamrnCrz1974 for my views. I certainly couldn't care less if the bitter poster who hates his own team doesn't like my response to CamrnCrz1974. If not for being asked I would have ignored Clough's list. If not for your post I would have ignored readyaimmiss.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 02/25/17 12:37 pm ::: |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| [ ND fans were proclaiming they had the three of the best frosh in the league |
I only see 2 freshman on the Notre Dame roster [Jackie Young, Erin Boley]. Did someone transfer mid-season?
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Fighting Artichoke
Joined: 12 Dec 2012
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| Posted: 02/25/17 1:08 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| [ ND fans were proclaiming they had the three of the best frosh in the league |
I only see 2 freshman on the Notre Dame roster [Jackie Young, Erin Boley]. Did someone transfer mid-season? |
Ali Patberg (HS class of 2015) was injured all of last season, so she is a freshman (HS class of 2016) as far as eligibility goes. She has had troubles this season as well, mostly due to illness.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 02/25/17 8:34 pm ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
Other than this comment: "But reading comprehension has never been your strong suit. "
this is interesting commentary. It would be nice to keep the inflammatory stuff out of it, and nice if Art doesn't feel compelled to flame back....but I suppose that is too much to ask. |
Thank you Myrtle. I don't care what Art does/doesn't do except when he insults a friend. Rob has thick skin so I imagine he laughed. There are few people who can break down a game replete with nuances most of us miss like Rob C can.
And I notice his response contained no mention of his misstatement about the supposed "tie" that wasn't a tie. Using strong critical words, then finding out you were wrong about what you critiqued, well, many would acknowledge their mistake. Weak, really weak.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 02/25/17 8:50 pm ::: |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
Other than this comment: "But reading comprehension has never been your strong suit. "
this is interesting commentary. It would be nice to keep the inflammatory stuff out of it, and nice if Art doesn't feel compelled to flame back....but I suppose that is too much to ask. |
Thank you Myrtle. I don't care what Art does/doesn't do except when he insults a friend. Rob has thick skin so I imagine he laughed. There are few people who can break down a game replete with nuances most of us miss like Rob C can.
And I notice his response contained no mention of his misstatement about the supposed "tie" that wasn't a tie. Using strong critical words, then finding out you were wrong about what you critiqued, well, many would acknowledge their mistake. Weak, really weak. |
It's quite remarkable you can post that with a seemingly "straight face".
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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| Posted: 02/25/17 10:46 pm ::: |
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| Notes: Turner is my POY, I guess. I say that with little enthusiasm. She's the best player on a flawed team. She leads the ACC in FG% and blocks, and is a solid scorer and rebounder. Peterson leads the ACC in scoring and assists, but Turner gets the nod for being on one of the two best teams. |
 Flawed? Or one of the two best?
I'm thinking that every team has flaws. The best teams are able to hide them. So what's with the jab about "little enthusiasm?" Is it a shot at ND or a shot at Turner? Seems very unnecessary to me.
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| I favor the best players on the best teams whenever possible, and good players putting up inflated stats on horrible teams get penalized accordingly. |
| Quote: |
| Finally, you have Allen, a senior on the ACC's best team who lead the ACC in assist/turnover ratio, vs Kea, a do-it-all player on a horrible team. If Notre Dame wins the conference, I'll give Allen the call. |
Why did he bother typing this? By his own rules, Allen is on the team over Kea. What does winning the conference have to do with it? ND is a better team than UNC.
FWIW, I'd have Allen ahead of Ogunbowale any day! I think that LA gives up a lot of her scoring for others on the team. Ogunbowale may score 5.5 ppg more than LA, but she also takes 5.5 more shots to get those points. LA's assists, rebounding and overall leadership push her far ahead of Ogunbowale, IMO. I would have to think long and hard to decide team MVP between LA and Turner.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 02/25/17 11:57 pm ::: |
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I think Rob Clough is an excellent basketball writer and analyst, but I don't think Art was "insulting" him. Art, in his own blunt style, was disagreeing with some of his picks.
I don't see the ACC enough to have an opinion on player awards, but it is an interestingly evolving and competitive league. I'm certainly glad my Seminoles are now in the conference instead of the 10 others that I can't remember. I wish UConn were too, for its sake, but that would probably make the conference less interesting for the fans of everyone else. |
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 02/26/17 12:21 am ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
I think Rob Clough is an excellent basketball writer and analyst, but I don't think Art was "insulting" him. Art, in his own blunt style, was disagreeing with some of his picks.
I don't see the ACC enough to have an opinion on player awards, but it is an interestingly evolving and competitive league. I'm certainly glad my Seminoles are now in the conference instead of the 10 others that I can't remember. I wish UConn were too, for its sake, but that would probably make the conference less interesting for the fans of everyone else. |
"But listing a "tie" between Allen and Paris Kea for the last spot on the third team is one of the most asinine things I've ever seen on one of these lists."
This crosses beyond critique into insult IMHO. The only reason Kea is fighting for a spot on the third team is that Carolina is so bad this year. She's had a fine season.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 02/26/17 12:31 am ::: |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
I think Rob Clough is an excellent basketball writer and analyst, but I don't think Art was "insulting" him. Art, in his own blunt style, was disagreeing with some of his picks.
I don't see the ACC enough to have an opinion on player awards, but it is an interestingly evolving and competitive league. I'm certainly glad my Seminoles are now in the conference instead of the 10 others that I can't remember. I wish UConn were too, for its sake, but that would probably make the conference less interesting for the fans of everyone else. |
"But listing a "tie" between Allen and Paris Kea for the last spot on the third team is one of the most asinine things I've ever seen on one of these lists."
This crosses beyond critique into insult IMHO. The only reason Kea is fighting for a spot on the third team is that Carolina is so bad this year. She's had a fine season. |
My statement was 100% true.
It's beyond absurd to create some phony equivalence between Lyndsay Allen and Paris Kea. It is, indeed, a completely asinine assessment.
I really don't give a damn if you don't like the truth.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 02/27/17 12:38 pm ::: |
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First, Rob watches (in person and on television) more ACC games than anyone in this thread...and has done so for 25 years.
Second, I had an exchange with Rob about some of his selections. This is what I wrote (this is from February 22):
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1) It is crazy to think that last year's POY (Hines-Allen) did not make any of the All-ACC teams this year. It certainly speaks to the depth of the conference, the talent, and the balance.
2) Jessica Thomas averages more assists than Motley, but Thomas' shooting is not good (especially from three). How did you decide Thomas over Motley (also guessing you have the advantage of the eye test, as I only saw Miami play twice this year)?
3) Did you consider giving POY to Lexie Brown? Duke is 3rd in the league and will likely finish with a conference record of 13-3. Notre Dame could go 15-1 or 14-2. Was it a matter of best player on the best team, or did Brown get serious consideration?
4) With that said, did you consider Peterson for POY? Her scoring is lights out, and she is over 7 apg, well over 2:1 A/TO, and making 2.5 threes per game while sooting 38 percent from distance. Her shooting in conference games slipped, but she really is putting up amazing numbers. In conference games only, she has either scored or assisted on 61 percent of Syracuse's made baskets. |
And this was Rob's response (printed with permission; response is also from February 22):
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1. She may well make the official team, but the fact is that her numbers are lower across the board; also, Louisville's status as the likely 5 seed slightly diminishes her.
2. Motley hasn't done anything much except score this year. Thomas is top 20 scoring, top 10 assists, and top 15 in FT%, steals and assist/turnover ratio.
3. rewarding good teams for their play is important. Thought about Lexie, but the losses to ND and FSU (and NC State) hurt her candidacy. Thought about Peterson too, and she might be the choice. But Syracuse has way too many losses (sixth place!) and her numbers are slightly skewed by Syracuse's ridiculous lack of depth.
Turner is not a sexy choice at all, but there's something to be said for consistency and coming up big in big games. |
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 02/27/17 1:04 pm ::: |
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Those responses reflect what I said, that his list reflects a slavish adherence to numbers, and in my view a lack of understanding of what's actually happening in the games.
It's like the many baseball fans who are more obsessed with statistics than what's actually happening on the field.
That's my take on his stuff. You can watch every game ever played but if you're obsessed with numbers you miss the game. Motley is the perfect example.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 02/28/17 4:02 pm ::: |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
The real issue is that Notre Dame will not dominate the awards this year, just like they did not completely dominate the ACC this season. Hurts, don't it? |
Well, the real All ACC team is out, and guess what. Lyndsay Allen and Myisha Hines-Allen are both right where they should be, on the First Team (along with Brianna Turner), and Paris Kea is right where she should be, as in nowhere to be seen. All of which should be obvious to anyone who understands what they're looking at.
As for "dominating" the ACC, i guess going 15-1, winning the conference with a two game lead, and whipping the number 2 team by 18 pts isn't good enough?
No pain here, that's for sure.
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