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basketballologist



Joined: 05 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 06/26/17 11:16 am    ::: How exciting would this be... Reply Reply with quote

..... if this was the WNBA format

EASTERN CONFERENCE:

Atlantic Division:
- Connecticut Sun
- New York Liberty
- Philadelphia Passion
- Washington Mystics

Central Division:
- Chicago Sky
- Cleveland Rockers
- Detroit Shock
- Indiana Fever

Southeast Division:
- Atlanta Dream
- Charlotte Sting
- Orlando Miracle
- Miami Sol

WESTERN CONFERENCE:

Northwest Division:
- Denver Gold
- Minnesota Lynx
- Seattle Storm
- Utah Starzz

Pacific Division:
- Los Angeles Sparks
- Phoenix Mercury
- Portland Fire
- Sacramento Monarchs

Southwest Division:
- Dallas Wings
- Houston Comets
- San Antonio Stars
- Tulsa Twist

60 game season (Division rivals meet 4 times, Conference rivals outside the division meet 3 times, Non-conference rivals meet 2 times)

16 team playoffs: (Best of 3 Conference Semifinals and Finals, Best of 5 WNBA finals)

The only back to back games will be vs. division foe

8 team lottery. No team can win the #1 pick in consecutive years.

4 round draft (96 picks overall)

13 team roster (11 active, 2 inactive)

Draft is the week following the NCAA Finals

Training Camp start a week after the draft

Regular Season Scheduling is from (May 1st - September 31st)

Playoff Start (October)

DO YALL THINK THIS WOULD BE A GOOD LEAGUE?


Fighting Artichoke



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 11:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Sure it would be great, but from where would the money come? They are having difficulty keeping 12 teams from losing too much money.


basketballologist



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 11:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Let's just say for instance that money wasn't the case..... I think that could really be a good league. It would be so much parity.


toad455



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 11:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Too many teams, not enough talent. You'd have players like Sophie Brunner, Diarra, Breanna Lewis, Nadia Colhado, etc. as starters. I think 18 teams max for the league in terms of talent. I'd prefer four former cities getting teams: Houston, Sacramento, Portland & Cleveland. Add in San Francisco (NBA's Warriors) & a team in Tennessee and I'd be very happy.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 12:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

60 games is nearly twice as many games as now, so instead of a 4 month schedule, it'd be about a 7 month schedule. That would interfere too much with the overseas leagues. The only way it works is if WNBA wages were competitive enough to make overseas leagues a secondary or non-priority. A seven month league might overlap the college season. I guess you could make it April to November, but that'd be tight. How about a 48 game season?

I don't see any drastic changes coming until broadcasters are competing for and bidding up the rights to broadcast WNBA games.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 12:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Setting aside the money, the talent would be the issue. There's barely enough for 12 teams, and with 24 teams, you'd have one all-star per team. That means defenses would gang up on the one player (or even two) on each team that could score, and the league would become a low-scoring league dominated by defense and athletic players who cannot shoot.



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Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 2:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Too many teams, not enough talent. You'd have players like Sophie Brunner, Diarra, Breanna Lewis, Nadia Colhado, etc. as starters. I think 18 teams max for the league in terms of talent. I'd prefer four former cities getting teams: Houston, Sacramento, Portland & Cleveland. Add in San Francisco (NBA's Warriors) & a team in Tennessee and I'd be very happy.


I'm even more conservative than that: I don't think that the WNBA's model could sustain more than sixteen teams. I'd love to see franchises returned to Houston and Sacramento, even though I'm not sure that Texas would support three WNBA teams. I feel like neither Northern California nor the Pacific Northwest would support two teams (and since I hate the Joe Lacob and the Warriors, fuck that city), but Cleveland and Tennessee? I'd be here for that. Extend the season to 42 games, maybe?



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 3:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
since I hate the Joe Lacob and the Warriors, fuck that city


As a Warrior fan since they moved here, it's actually gratifying that the Dubs are good enough for anyone to even care about. Bring it on ... it's better to be hated (in this regard) than to be discounted as not worth thinking about.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 3:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

More games would be awesome, of course, for anyone who loves women's basketball. As far as teams, I think 12 really makes it exciting. If you look at it right now we have extreme parity with most teams featuring 3-4 players who can regularly score double digits at least almost into the teens. I think the talent level is good enough to support 14 teams without an enormous drop-off. At 16 I think you'd really start to see the difference. Even 0-14 San Antonio nearly beat Minnesota on the road last night. I've watched two Liberty games in the last week. Both were highly entertaining, one tied in the high 80s at the end of regulation and the other containing a 21 point comeback to tie at 86 with a minute left.

I've thoroughly enjoyed this season so far after what was a slow first two weeks. I like the young talent and speed really coming to fruition. It's evident on a number of teams that have successfully demonstrated the ability to slash to the basket to score or create for others as well as the presence of increased transition offense.

I wish the increased entertainment value led to an increase in fan support, but all I can do is speak for myself. My adrenaline level Friday night at MSG was off the charts when the Libs tied the game in a very exciting manner. We're seeing individual play that's never been more highly skilled, along with the team play aspect of women's basketball. It's good stuff, from where I sit.



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 3:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

In terms of games, how about a small bump up to 36 games, with 3 4-team divisions? It would mean playing two additional teams 4 times. I would love it, because it would guarantee two road games in CT and DC every year, assuming both those teams were in a division with NY. It would not be that drastic in terms of balancing the schedule and you'd have minor changes to the overall time frame of the schedule.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 4:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Setting aside the money, the talent would be the issue. There's barely enough for 12 teams, and with 24 teams, you'd have one all-star per team. That means defenses would gang up on the one player (or even two) on each team that could score, and the league would become a low-scoring league dominated by defense and athletic players who cannot shoot.


Do only all-stars score in the current league?


PUmatty



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 4:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Setting aside the money, the talent would be the issue. There's barely enough for 12 teams, and with 24 teams, you'd have one all-star per team. That means defenses would gang up on the one player (or even two) on each team that could score, and the league would become a low-scoring league dominated by defense and athletic players who cannot shoot.


Do only all-stars score in the current league?


Of course not, but currently 43 players are averaging 10 points per game. That means in a 24-team league, that averages to fewer than two double-digit scorers per team. And the low end of the double-scorers includes players like Leilani Mitchell, Damiris Dantas, and Bria Holmes. How many people want to watch games where Mitchell is the second best player on the team?


Shades



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 4:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

What we've (or maybe I should say I've) seen this year is that when a starter becomes unavailable, many have been stepping up in their place. Examples: Williams for Bentley; Zellous for Prince; Cappie for Sloot and subsequently Quigley for Cappie; Wheeler for January; Dantas for Lyttle; I dunno, has Krystal Thomas stepped up for Meesseman? I'm probably forgetting some. I don't think it's unfair to say that more players could step into go-to player roles if given the opportunity. It seems like a lot of coaches don't realize what they have sitting on the bench unless the coach is forced to use them.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 5:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
How many people want to watch games where Mitchell is the second best player on the team?


College basketball is fairly popular and Leilani Mitchell was the best player on her college team



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 5:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Obviously, someone has to score, and every player in the WNBA has been a successful scorer along the way.

But the ability to create a shot, and make a shot, at this level, is what I mean by the ability to score. Kicking to Leilani Mitchell for a wideopen three is the result of another player drawing defensive attention from more than just her defender. If no player can create her own shot, then no defensive help will be needed and Mitchell will never be open.



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Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 5:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
What we've (or maybe I should say I've) seen this year is that when a starter becomes unavailable, many have been stepping up in their place. Examples: Williams for Bentley; Zellous for Prince; Cappie for Sloot and subsequently Quigley for Cappie; Wheeler for January; Dantas for Lyttle; I dunno, has Krystal Thomas stepped up for Meesseman? I'm probably forgetting some. I don't think it's unfair to say that more players could step into go-to player roles if given the opportunity. It seems like a lot of coaches don't realize what they have sitting on the bench unless the coach is forced to use them.


You mention Wheeler "stepping up" for January... I mean, I guess, but if you double a player's FGAs and triple their minutes, you should see them become more productive. I feel like a better question to ask is whether that "stepping up" translates into wins?



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Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 5:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Obviously, someone has to score, and every player in the WNBA has been a successful scorer along the way.

But the ability to create a shot, and make a shot, at this level, is what I mean by the ability to score. Kicking to Leilani Mitchell for a wideopen three is the result of another player drawing defensive attention from more than just her defender. If no player can create her own shot, then no defensive help will be needed and Mitchell will never be open.


I guess they could also set a shitload of screens to get her open, if they've got the personnel for it.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 5:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
tfan wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Setting aside the money, the talent would be the issue. There's barely enough for 12 teams, and with 24 teams, you'd have one all-star per team. That means defenses would gang up on the one player (or even two) on each team that could score, and the league would become a low-scoring league dominated by defense and athletic players who cannot shoot.


Do only all-stars score in the current league?


Of course not, but currently 43 players are averaging 10 points per game. That means in a 24-team league, that averages to fewer than two double-digit scorers per team. And the low end of the double-scorers includes players like Leilani Mitchell, Damiris Dantas, and Bria Holmes. How many people want to watch games where Mitchell is the second best player on the team?


I don't know that it follows that as the league got bigger, scoring would go down. Offensive talent on average declines, and so does defensive talent. Are the cuts from WNBA training camps all athletic defenders who can't shoot? You could increase scoring at any time, even in a 12 team league, by lowering the amount of fouls allowed. Which would also decrease the number of fouls called, something people complain about here constantly. pilight said the fouls are higher than the NBA per minute. The WNBA players take advantage of the higher per-minute allotment that they are given.

The data - TV ratings and announced arena attendance - does not support the contention that attendance and ratings will decline in a larger league, or increase in a smaller league, or a league with a lower average talent level will do worse than a league with a higher average talent level. The issue is clouded by the league's newness wearing off, but I think that is now over. Now we have talent is getting better and announced attendance is flat or down. Real attendance seems to be doing even worse.

And the talent dilution issue presents what seems like a narrow window - WNBA fans would be willing to watch players that are worse than those in the NBA, NBA D-League, and NCAA men, but unwilling to watch players that were elite in college, but not elite in a 12 team league.




Last edited by tfan on 06/26/17 6:06 pm; edited 3 times in total
Shades



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 5:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
Shades wrote:
What we've (or maybe I should say I've) seen this year is that when a starter becomes unavailable, many have been stepping up in their place. Examples: Williams for Bentley; Zellous for Prince; Cappie for Sloot and subsequently Quigley for Cappie; Wheeler for January; Dantas for Lyttle; I dunno, has Krystal Thomas stepped up for Meesseman? I'm probably forgetting some. I don't think it's unfair to say that more players could step into go-to player roles if given the opportunity. It seems like a lot of coaches don't realize what they have sitting on the bench unless the coach is forced to use them.


You mention Wheeler "stepping up" for January... I mean, I guess, but if you double a player's FGAs and triple their minutes, you should see them become more productive. I feel like a better question to ask is whether that "stepping up" translates into wins?


That was mostly my point. I was addressing PUMatty, who was saying there were only 43 double digit scorers in the 12 team league, as if that's all the players who are capable of scoring double digits. Scoring can be limited by how many minutes players get. I'm quite sure there would be significantly more double digital scorers in a 24 team league.



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blaase22



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 5:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Why wouldn't Portland be in the northwest division Laughing


PUmatty



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 5:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
How many people want to watch games where Mitchell is the second best player on the team?


College basketball is fairly popular and Leilani Mitchell was the best player on her college team


Is it? She played at Idaho and Utah. How popular at those teams? Not popular enough to sustain a WNBA team.


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PostPosted: 06/26/17 6:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I like the original poster bold vision.

I think in 2020 to 2024 if all goes well my watered down version would be a sixteen team league with 4 conferences. I'm going to list two kind of stars who can man each team in say 2020 and still have a competitive league and I'll throw in a 3rd for fun and a 4th decent player who might still be around to prove that with new talent and better distribution there is plenty of talent for 16 decent teams

North East
NY Liberty (Charles/Rodgers/Canada/Stokes)
Conn Sun (C. Ogwumike/J. Jones/KLS/A. Thomas)
Boston Shamrocks (Hayes/N. Collier/G. Williams/Dolson)
Washington Mystics (EDD/L. Brown/A. Stevens/Meeseman)

Central
Indy Fever (B. Turner/T. Mitchell/Ogabowle (Sp)/Faulkner)
Chicago Sky (Deshields/GloJo/K. Brown/K. Flahrety)
Cleveland Rockers (K. Mitchell/M. Russell/Hill/Mavunga)
Minn Lynx (Moore/Fowles/Plum/M. Williams)

South
Atl Dream (McCoughtry/E. Williams/T. Mcgowan (Sp)/Westbrook)
Dallas Wings (Diggins/Cambage/A. Gray/Powers)
SA Stars (Jefferson/A. Wilson/Coates/I. Harrison)
PX Mercury (Griner/Sims/Bonner/D-Rob)

Pacific
Seattle Storm (Stewart/Loyd/Vandrsloot/Boyette)
LA Sparks (C. Gray/Vadeeva/C. Parker/Toliver)
San Francisco Treat (N. Ogwumike/Anigwe/Clarendon/Nurse)
Las Vegas JackPot or Sacramento Monarchs (McBride/Lavender/Joyner-Holmes/Ionesco/)

You play your division mates 4 times (12 games) all other teams twice (24 games) for a total of 36 team. Division winners get top four seed in the playoffs and home court next four best records fill out 5-8/ So you develop local rivalries and winning your division has meaning.

OK got a little carried away with the imagination game but it was fun




Last edited by J-Spoon on 06/26/17 6:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
StevenHW



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 6:45 pm    ::: Re: How exciting would this be... Reply Reply with quote

basketballologist wrote:

EASTERN CONFERENCE:

Atlantic Division:
- Connecticut Sun
- New York Liberty
- Philadelphia Passion
- Washington Mystics

[snip]


The Philadelphia Passion? Did you get the idea from the now-defunct Lingerie Football League team of the same name?

http://www.lflus.com/phillypassion

That Lingerie Football League is now rebranded as the Legends Football League.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 7:00 pm    ::: Re: How exciting would this be... Reply Reply with quote

StevenHW wrote:
basketballologist wrote:

EASTERN CONFERENCE:

Atlantic Division:
- Connecticut Sun
- New York Liberty
- Philadelphia Passion
- Washington Mystics

[snip]


The Philadelphia Passion? Did you get the idea from the now-defunct Lingerie Football League team of the same name?

http://www.lflus.com/phillypassion

That Lingerie Football League is now rebranded as the Legends Football League.


I'm sure it was used by some team but my Phily suggestion would be Philadelphia Freedom (that is so WNBA, uplifting, has no plural, etc)


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PostPosted: 06/26/17 8:28 pm    ::: Re: How exciting would this be... Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
StevenHW wrote:
basketballologist wrote:

EASTERN CONFERENCE:

Atlantic Division:
- Connecticut Sun
- New York Liberty
- Philadelphia Passion
- Washington Mystics

[snip]


The Philadelphia Passion? Did you get the idea from the now-defunct Lingerie Football League team of the same name?

http://www.lflus.com/phillypassion

That Lingerie Football League is now rebranded as the Legends Football League.


I'm sure it was used by some team but my Phily suggestion would be Philadelphia Freedom (that is so WNBA, uplifting, has no plural, etc)


Billie Jean King is pissed enough at the W over Isiah...no way they get away with poaching the Freedoms name

(the song was actually written by Sir Elton as a fight song for the WTT team...and then became one of his biggest hits Billie Jean King and Elton John are extremely close friends)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Freedom_(song)#Background

Anyway...

I do think there is enough talent for expansion, a sentiment echoed by coaches in the league...there is enough phenomonea of players being cut...developing overseas and returning and making an impact now that one can say that there is more talent than jobs...the way rosters work sometimes this just goes unseen...only so many minutes to go around

You even saw that was marginal talent Bria Hartley...she was getting run out on a rail before Prince went overseas. she gets mins and she works the team to a 5-1 run. Sometimes its just role and mission that changes output...Saw it well with Zellous when she was told to be more than a D specialist and Raincock when they needed her points off the bench. To the point ive argued that draft rights should have some non roster retention mechanism as even late 1s often don't get a fair shake and end up breaking out with a different team

60 games?...there was problems getting players in and practiced for the games we currently have this year!!!!

But expansion...I think 14 in 3 years, 16 in 6 is a fair...attainable and wise goal...there is more talent...

the other issue is distribution, which I think in a backwards way can be fixed by higher salaries if done right. (only so many maxes to fit on cap...break up that talent increase parity)

Its bold and not as crazy as it sounds but we're a LOOONNNGGG way from the OP's idea



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toad455



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 8:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

before we jump the gun on adding four teams, let's also be real and think that either Dallas or Atlanta might get relocated in a few years.



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Jet Jaguar



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 9:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The irony is there is actually plenty of talent for mass expansion of the league, yet there are players currently in the league who have no business being on a WNBA roster (even if there was expansion).



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 9:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
I like the original poster bold vision.

I think in 2020 to 2024 if all goes well my watered down version would be a sixteen team league with 4 conferences. I'm going to list two kind of stars who can man each team in say 2020 and still have a competitive league and I'll throw in a 3rd for fun and a 4th decent player who might still be around to prove that with new talent and better distribution there is plenty of talent for 16 decent teams

North East
NY Liberty (Charles/Rodgers/Canada/Stokes)
Conn Sun (C. Ogwumike/J. Jones/KLS/A. Thomas)
Boston Shamrocks (Hayes/N. Collier/G. Williams/Dolson)
Washington Mystics (EDD/L. Brown/A. Stevens/Meeseman)

Central
Indy Fever (B. Turner/T. Mitchell/Ogabowle (Sp)/Faulkner)
Chicago Sky (Deshields/GloJo/K. Brown/K. Flahrety)
Cleveland Rockers (K. Mitchell/M. Russell/Hill/Mavunga)
Minn Lynx (Moore/Fowles/Plum/M. Williams)

South
Atl Dream (McCoughtry/E. Williams/T. Mcgowan (Sp)/Westbrook)
Dallas Wings (Diggins/Cambage/A. Gray/Powers)
SA Stars (Jefferson/A. Wilson/Coates/I. Harrison)
PX Mercury (Griner/Sims/Bonner/D-Rob)

Pacific
Seattle Storm (Stewart/Loyd/Vandrsloot/Boyette)
LA Sparks (C. Gray/Vadeeva/C. Parker/Toliver)
San Francisco Treat (N. Ogwumike/Anigwe/Clarendon/Nurse)
Las Vegas JackPot or Sacramento Monarchs (McBride/Lavender/Joyner-Holmes/Ionesco/)

You play your division mates 4 times (12 games) all other teams twice (24 games) for a total of 36 team. Division winners get top four seed in the playoffs and home court next four best records fill out 5-8/ So you develop local rivalries and winning your division has meaning.

OK got a little carried away with the imagination game but it was fun


San Francisco Treat! πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

Team name of the year.



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PostPosted: 06/26/17 10:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

A team with both Diamond and GloJo on it, kill me now



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