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root_thing



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PostPosted: 02/19/17 3:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Everyone assumes Schimmel is gone, but what if she shows up in shape? When the Liberty traded for her last year, a lot of people on this board said it was really a move for next season. Well, "next season" is here. Shoni might be the second most talented offensive player on this team if you include passing ability. Once you get Schimmel to play just serviceable defense, then she's back in the mix. If Shoni really has no chance of making the team, then NY should cut her now to allow her to look for a better situation.



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PostPosted: 02/19/17 5:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
root_thing wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:

One of the crucial questions for the Liberty in 2017: will our young players improve? Last season neither Boyd nor Stokes improved as much as I'd hoped. Perhaps one or both will show more improvement this season. Meanwhile, I'm thinking about Allen and Zahui B. If even one of them can become a consistent scorer--a possibility raised earlier about Zahui B--that will help the team a lot.


I agree. New York has six players entering their third or fourth season: Allen, Boyd, Hartley, Schimmel, Stokes and Zahui B. We just need one of them to step up and be a solid starter. Add that to a healthy Prince returning to some semblance of her old self, and I think we have enough improvement to be optimistic.


1. Schimmel's gone
2. I think we need two players to step up. One definitely being Boyd and the other being either Stokes or Zahui B. I'll say Zahui B. as I think her offensive potential is much higher than Stokes.
3. Allen just needs to show us more & up her defense if she's going to be playing 20 mpg at SF.
4. Hartley's the only player on that list that is new to Laimbeer's system. We'll see what role she plays, if any, for the Liberty.


Has Shoni Schimmel been waived by the Liberty? (I haven't seen this.) If not, then presenting this as a fact is less than helpful. Could Schimmel be cut if all the other guards are still on the roster by Opening Night? Yes. Is it a certainty that it'll work out this way? No.



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PostPosted: 02/19/17 6:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
I like Zahui's upside,but I see her getting traded before the season starts.Ny didn't acquire Vaughn to sit her on the bench:

Charles:32 mpg
Stokes:25 mpg
Vaughn:20 mpg

This leaves 3 minutes at the pf/c position.There's a good chance Zahui gets traded to:

Connecticut for Stricklen & a future 1st rd pick

Chicago for Young & the #9 pick....or...... Young & Quigley(ny would then trade Prince,Rodgers or Wright)

San Antonio for M.Currie & the #5 pick


I disagree with this on two counts. First, I'm not convinced that Bill Laimbeer acquired Kia Vaughn to be the starting center. But even if he did, that could mean being a 'starter" in the same somewhat misleading way that Carolyn Swords was a starter. Swords averaged only 17.5 minutes per game last season. The same could happen for Vaughn.

Second, I believe Amanda Zahui B has potential to be an important player. And I suspect that Bill Laimbeer feels the same way. Could she be traded? Yes. Probably at least 2/3 of the current roster could be traded if the deal is right. But I don't see Laimbeer trading Zahui B unless it's a deal that will clearly upgrade the roster, ideally at SF. And that kind of deal, as has been discussed here for weeks, won't be all that easy to come by.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 02/19/17 8:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

You can discount all three of those proposed trades anyway. Neither Stricklen nor Quigley fit the Laimbeer prototype for different reasons. Stricklen is not a passer, penetrator or a factor in the paint. Quigley is too slight. And they're not trading a promising post player for Currie even if a draft pick is included, in my opinion.

Zahui is better than Vaughn right now, and this is not even including her developmental potential. She had her best game last year as a starter, and the more she attempts to score, the more of a factor she becomes in the flow of the game. Kia's acquisition makes a whole lot more sense if you consider her as a sub for Tina and occasional sub at center than if you consider her a starter. Swords set a certain tone early in games with pick and rolls to the basket as well as a degree of physicality and rim protection on defense. Kia has nice versatility, but she does not set the physical tone that Zahui does...and I'd wager that tone is something that Laimbeer will consider extremely valuable. In turn, if the Libs have an injury to a post player, Vaughn provides far more versatility than Swords, and you could essentially use her inside or out depending on who she is paired with. I firmly believe Vaughn was acquired for the express purpose of having Zahui start and to bring an added degree of versatility off the bench. This would give more offense at the start of games, especially if Sugar comes off the bench.

And since it appears that Sugar has been re-signed for the specific purpose of being in a Liberty uniform, that means the likelihood of trading for a starting SF appears slim. To add offense, it's completely logical to believe that you'd go with a post player like Zahui who averaged nearly a point every two minutes last year while improving her face-up game this season overseas. And she will have the benefit of a full off season and training camp with the team, something she didn't have last year.



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PostPosted: 02/19/17 9:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
You can discount all three of those proposed trades anyway. Neither Stricklen nor Quigley fit the Laimbeer prototype for different reasons. Stricklen is not a passer, penetrator or a factor in the paint. Quigley is too slight. And they're not trading a promising post player for Currie even if a draft pick is included, in my opinion.

Zahui is better than Vaughn right now, and this is not even including her developmental potential. She had her best game last year as a starter, and the more she attempts to score, the more of a factor she becomes in the flow of the game. Kia's acquisition makes a whole lot more sense if you consider her as a sub for Tina and occasional sub at center than if you consider her a starter. Swords set a certain tone early in games with pick and rolls to the basket as well as a degree of physicality and rim protection on defense. Kia has nice versatility, but she does not set the physical tone that Zahui does...and I'd wager that tone is something that Laimbeer will consider extremely valuable. In turn, if the Libs have an injury to a post player, Vaughn provides far more versatility than Swords, and you could essentially use her inside or out depending on who she is paired with. I firmly believe Vaughn was acquired for the express purpose of having Zahui start and to bring an added degree of versatility off the bench. This would give more offense at the start of games, especially if Sugar comes off the bench.


I fully agree. It's nice to have Kia Vaughn on the team, but getting her hardly means there's no room for Amanda Zahui B. Of the two, I definitely view Zahui B as the more important player for the Liberty.



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PostPosted: 02/19/17 10:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'll put my money on Vaughn being the starting center.Laimbeer is a defensive first coach.Kia is the better,more disciplined defender in my opinion.Zahui b. was the most foul-prone center in the wnba last season(2.1 fouls in 11.3 minutes).Zahui also had a very poor asst/to ratio(12a/37t)....I believe Bill will go with the steady veteran over the young upstart.


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PostPosted: 02/19/17 10:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Just catching up on today's chat

No Thanks to all of those trades

Most teams that use 12 roster spots have a minimum of four post players, Vaughn replacing Swords won't have any negative affect on Stokes or Zahu B. minutes. I won't be surprised to see Charles play a few less minutes a night and Zahui B play a few more compared to last season. I agree that Zahui B. and Allen progressing might be our best bet for taking another step forward in our search for a championship, combined with staying healthy all season and the Prince/Rodgers back-court combo working but I digress. Back to the post rotation, I still think Burdick has a good chance to get the 12th spot as a player who can play some deep bench minutes at the 3 and the 4.

OTOH I think if the four post rotation seems like enough then one of Schimmel, Barbee and #14 can still make it onto the team. And this is before any trades that might involve one of our other guards. Hartley is the new kid in town so while I feel pretty confident she will make it, she'll still have to prove herself in camp as well.

I have said it before so I will say it again, I would love for Schimmel to show up in shape and prove she has improved from liability to mediocre on defense because even in her limited minutes last year she was one of the best shooters and passers we had. I can still see her making it as the 11th or 12th player and coming in and making a few electric plays to get the Liberty back on track if the starters are struggling.

For now I still think it is this

Prince/Boyd/Hartley
Rodgers/Wright
Zellous/Allen
Charles/Zahui B/Burdick
Vaughn/Stokes (I want Stokes to start but I'll defer to the vet for now)

but I won't be too shocked if it is this

Prince/Boyd/Hartley
Rodgers/Scimmel
Wright/Zellous/Allen
Charles/Zahui B
Vaughn/Stokes

A little on the small side but solves the we're not completely confident in Prince or Rodgers running the point, so Wright runs the point on offense and guards the other teams SF when on the floor with the starters.

And I also won't be too shocked if Wright and or Zellous maybe packaged with the #14 pick is traded for something which will also open a possible spot for Shoni




Last edited by J-Spoon on 02/19/17 10:33 pm; edited 4 times in total
Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 02/19/17 10:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
I'll put my money on Vaughn being the starting center.Laimbeer is a defensive first coach.Kia is the better,more disciplined defender in my opinion.Zahui b. was the most foul-prone center in the wnba last season(2.1 fouls in 11.3 minutes).Zahui also had a very poor asst/to ratio(12a/37t)....I believe Bill will go with the steady veteran over the young upstart.


You might be right about Kia Vaughn being the starting center. For me, that issue is trivial. What's important is who plays lots of minutes and who plays in the fourth quarter. Swords was the starter last season, played only 17.5 minutes per game in the regular season, and was rarely out there in the fourth quarter.

I believe that Zahui B will play substantially more than Vaughn. And your proposal (on page 10 of this discussion) to trade Zahui B and just go with three post players for two positions will never happen. What if someone gets hurt? What if someone gets into foul trouble? Who would back up Charles, Vaughn, and Stokes? Some player far inferior to Zahui B? I don't see that happening.



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 10:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It might sound like i'm contradicting myself,but If I were the liberty hc/gm I wouldn't trade Zahui b.I'd start Stokes,and make Zahui the sixth woman.If Zahui plays poorly,Vaughn comes in as the 4th post.I'd give Allen the opportunity to sink or swim as the starting sf.I believe Rebecca has the size & shooting skills to fill the void at sf.However,based on Bill's rationing of the minutes last season,Zahui b & Allen specifically,I have the impression that Bill is open to trading both players in the right deal.I'm sure Vaughn is getting max money.I don't think you trade for a max player to play them 10-15 minutes per game.Zahui b has very good upside.It's totally understandable why liberty fans have their reservations about parting ways with her in any trade.But if the liberty have any aspirations of competing for a championship,they'll need to fill the void at the SF.At this point in her career I don't believe Zahui is going to get you an all-star type of player in return on the trade market.

Some lib fans are really undervaluiing what new york would get back in all three of my propsoed trades.Any future championship run is going to run through minnesota,Phoenix and maybe Atlanta.You're going to need a sf with some size to matchup with Moore/Bonner/Mccoughtry.Not saying that any of these players will stop the aforementioned all-stars,but they're better than what the liberty have at this moment from a defensive standpoint.Plus the liberty would be getting a 1st rd pick/2nd player as part of the deal.

The liberty have a huge hole at the SF position.If you think you're going to win a championship with Zellous/Wright playing sf,you are crazy.




Last edited by zune69 on 02/20/17 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
root_thing



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 12:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's a mistake to look at last year's minutes and assume that's how players will be used this season. With young players, there's an expected progression and the minutes will increase commensurate with their improvement. Remember, Zahui B. was acquired at the end of training camp and Allen joined at midseason. That put both players at a disadvantage from the start. Coaches tend to be conservative, and when push comes to shove they use veterans. However, if this team wants to win a championship, they have to develop some quality players on their own. It's very hard to build a team by only acquiring stars via trade and free agency. This is a small league with only eleven trading partners and no one is anxious to send you their best players. Nor is it common to let good players walk away for free. Consequently, you need to find some high-ceiling young talent and try to turn them into starters yourself. To me, Allen and Zahui B are the two most promising young players on the Liberty. I think the team would be crazy to trade them for a 30-year old mediocrity like Tamera Young or a chronic underachiever like Shekinna Strickland. Monique Currie could help in the short-term, but her established market value at the beginning of last year was a second round pick. I don't think she necessarily raised her stock during the season and now she's a year older.

I'm not convinced that the Liberty targeted Vaughn in that trade. While she and Swords are very different players, they're roughly equal in terms of production and usefulness. In fact, their PERs are almost identical: 13.3 for Vaughn and 13.2 for Swords. So if Vaughn and Swords are essentially a wash, that means the Liberty got Hartley for free. Bria gives them an option that on her good days is more complete than the players they already had: she shoots better than Boyd, is a much more reliable defender than Schimmel, and has the speed to push the ball much faster than Wright. Hartley also gives New York better long-range shooting and a player who can create her own shot. I'm not saying that Hartley will perform well every night, but she is certainly an option worth having -- especially if you get her for free.



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 1:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Okay Liberty fans....we'll see how this plays out during the season.


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PostPosted: 02/20/17 1:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

On the acquisition of Hartley I agree with Root for a few reasons, thrown in with the fact that I'd imagine they envision more minutes for Zahui this year. I do think that Hartley's significance in the trade is critical as well. If you guys remember, there were times when the team's only PGs were Boyd and Zellous. Part of that was due to Shoni's concussion, but how effective would she have been even if she had played? Hartley gives depth at both backcourt positions if needed, and she's a functional three point shooter. And she may push Boyd for minutes, which will hopefully bring out the best in Boyd this season. And Hartley is one of those solid players late in games. You can never have enough of those.



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 1:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
I might sound like i'm contradicting myself,but If I were the liberty hc/gm I wouldn't trade Zahui b.I'd start Stokes,and make Zahui the sixth woman.If Zahui plays poorly,Vaughn comes in as the 4th post.I'd give Allen the opportunity to sink or swim as the starting sf.I believe Rebecca has the size & shooting skills to fill the void at sf.However,based on Bill's rationing of the minutes last season,Zahui b & Allen specifically,I have the impression that Bill is open to trading both players in the right deal.I'm sure Vaughn is getting max money.I don't think you trade for a max player to play them 10-15 minutes per game.Zahui b has very good upside.It's totally understandable why liberty fans have their reservations about parting ways with her in any trade.But if the liberty have any aspirations of competing for a championship,they'll need to fill the void at the SF.At this point in her career I don't believe Zahui is going to get you an all-star type of player in return on the trade market.

Some lib fans are really undervaluiing what new york would get back in all three of my propsoed trades.Any future championship run is going to run through minnesota,Phoenix and maybe Atlanta.You're going to need a sf with some size to matchup with Moore/Bonner/Mccoughtry.Not saying that any of these players will stop the aforementioned all-stars,but they're better than what the liberty have at this moment from a defensive standpoint.Plus the liberty would be getting a 1st rd pick/2nd player as part of the deal.

The liberty have a huge hole at the SF position.If you think you're going to win a championship with Zellous/Wright playing sf,you are crazy.


Allen is likely the starting small forward. I'd love to upgrade. I don't see any of the 3 small forwards you named being an upgrade, however, given Allen's youth, three point shooting and developmental potential.



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 1:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Update on Schimmel is..well she's gone in cognito. Hasn't been seen on social media, hasn't been following her girlfriend around, etc. This could work either way..either she's working on one of the best comebacks of all time or she's given up and just living life.


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PostPosted: 02/20/17 1:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Okay Liberty fans....we'll see how this plays out during the season.


I'm not against a trade, but after discussing it much of the off season I've come to the conclusion that we are not going to get the payers I would want (Christmas, Bonner, A. Thomas) and I'm not willing to give up Zahui B, Stokes or Rodgers for the players I think we will get in return. So I guess I've sort of resigned myself to doing the best with what we've got. We do still have a lot of room for internal improvement.


zune69



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 2:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:

Allen is likely the starting small forward. I'd love to upgrade. I don't see any of the 3 small forwards you named being an upgrade, however, given Allen's youth, three point shooting and developmental potential.


I would do the bolded before making any trades,and see how things play out.I'd also make Zahui the 6th woman and play her 18-24 minutes per game.I believe Zahui b is a legit 10-15 ppg scorer if given the opportunity.

J-Spoon wrote:

I'm not against a trade, but after discussing it much of the off season I've come to the conclusion that we are not going to get the payers I would want (Christmas, Bonner, A. Thomas) and I'm not willing to give up Zahui B, Stokes or Rodgers for the players I think we will get in return. So I guess I've sort of resigned myself to doing the best with what we've got. We do still have a lot of room for internal improvement.


I agree,especially with the bolded


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PostPosted: 02/20/17 2:45 pm    ::: Czech Republic lifted by the addition of Vaughn Reply Reply with quote

http://www.fiba.com/eurobasketwomen/2017/news/-czech-republic-lifted-by-the-addition-of-vaughn

Quote:
PRAGUE (FIBA EuroBasket Women 2017) – Czech Republic have been handed a major boost for EuroBasket Women 2017 after the host nation revealed Kia Vaughn will suit up as their naturalized player at the event.




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PostPosted: 02/20/17 3:15 pm    ::: Re: Czech Republic lifted by the addition of Vaughn Reply Reply with quote

stever wrote:
http://www.fiba.com/eurobasketwomen/2017/news/-czech-republic-lifted-by-the-addition-of-vaughn

Quote:
PRAGUE (FIBA EuroBasket Women 2017) – Czech Republic have been handed a major boost for EuroBasket Women 2017 after the host nation revealed Kia Vaughn will suit up as their naturalized player at the event.



Yay! Finally! I like it Smile


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PostPosted: 02/20/17 3:31 pm    ::: Re: Czech Republic lifted by the addition of Vaughn Reply Reply with quote

stever wrote:
http://www.fiba.com/eurobasketwomen/2017/news/-czech-republic-lifted-by-the-addition-of-vaughn

Quote:
PRAGUE (FIBA EuroBasket Women 2017) – Czech Republic have been handed a major boost for EuroBasket Women 2017 after the host nation revealed Kia Vaughn will suit up as their naturalized player at the event.



Thibault probably knew this was coming. Did Thomas? Surprised

How much prep time will Vaughn need with her national team?



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 4:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

And when is it? Will she miss training camp and regular season time?



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 8:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
And when is it? Will she miss training camp and regular season time?


June 16-25:
http://www.fiba.com/eurobasketwomen/2017/fullschedule



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 9:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

stever wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
And when is it? Will she miss training camp and regular season time?


June 16-25:
http://www.fiba.com/eurobasketwomen/2017/fullschedule


So we can now assume Stokes will be the starting center and that the Liberty will need a fifth post on their roster. Bulgak? Vicki Baugh? dos Santos?



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 9:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Burdick can play some PF as well as SF, I think this may have gotten her onto the opening day roster unless we trade for a post.

I wouldn't mind giving Bulgak another look.


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PostPosted: 02/20/17 9:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I prefer Zahui B. at PF, so another center would be best.



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PostPosted: 02/21/17 3:47 am    ::: Re: Czech Republic lifted by the addition of Vaughn Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
stever wrote:
http://www.fiba.com/eurobasketwomen/2017/news/-czech-republic-lifted-by-the-addition-of-vaughn

Quote:
PRAGUE (FIBA EuroBasket Women 2017) – Czech Republic have been handed a major boost for EuroBasket Women 2017 after the host nation revealed Kia Vaughn will suit up as their naturalized player at the event.



Thibault probably knew this was coming. Did Thomas? Surprised

How much prep time will Vaughn need with her national team?


I guess this can be considered a bad move by the Liberty...so I'm sure Zeke was spearheading it...lol

However, if Vaughn plays well, It will be remembered as a Trader Bill special.Razz

Congratulations to Zeke on winning a well deserved Humanitarian Award. He has spent countless hours, on helping inner city youth in his hometown of Chicago and NYC...setting up anti-violence programs. Good to see him recognized at the National Museum of African American History and Culture.

“We are products of our past, but we don't have to be prisoners of it.”



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PostPosted: 02/21/17 3:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think this one was at least partially Laimbeer simply due to receiving the 2-for-1 value in return, and because Kia is a fit with their philosophy and helps organize their post structure differently from a coaching standpoint. Most people differ with me on this point, but I think part of the purpose of the deal was to open up a starter's spot for Zahui, who seems to play better as a starter than off the bench.

FWIW, the only trade I ever thought was potentially Isiah was Schimmel, because she is nothing like the prototype of a Laimbeer-style player. I thought it was a worthwhile risk then, and I also think so now. Even if she doesn't work out. Everyone knew the risks associated with her, and NY gave up a meaningless second round pick that they got back in the Zahui deal anyway. My one thought at the time was that the Libs were going to get carried away with trades for one-way players. But as it turned out, that wasn't a worry at all. All of the trades in the last year, regardless of who has had what input, have been a value-oriented steal for the Libs.

I'm fine with Isiah getting another chance, especially if he makes the most of it with regard to the community.



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PostPosted: 02/21/17 9:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

per their Facebook page, the Liberty have signed Ameryst Alston and Nayo Raincock-Ekunwe to 2017 Training Camp contracts. Alston's just a training camp body, but thoughts on Nayo? Possibly the 5th post for New York?



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PostPosted: 02/21/17 10:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

wow there is a lot of competition at SG, I'm not saying it is a sign of this but its more evidence that Wright or possible Zellous will be involved in a trade.

Her stats make it look like Raincock-Ekunwe is a PF or Center, anyone know for sure? It would be cool if she was a big SF.

Prince/Boyd/Hartley
Rodgers/Wright/Schimmel/Alston/Barbee
Zellous/Allen/Burdick
Charles/Zahui B./Raincock-Ekunwe
Stokes/Vaughn

#14 and #34 (so that is 18 players for 12 spots) obviously a few will be showing late to camp.


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PostPosted: 02/21/17 11:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

McKinley's Alston excels in first professional season in Spain

http://www.cantonrep.com/sports/20170123/lovin-basketball-mckinleys-alston-excels-in-first-professional-season-in-spain

Quote:
Alston is thriving in her first season playing professional basketball overseas. She is averaging 16.3 points, 3.3 rebounds and 2.4 assists as the starting point guard for Al-Qazeres (8-7), which competes in Liga Femenina de Baloncesto, Spain's top women's league.


Quote:
"It's been fun," Alston said, speaking by phone from Spain. "I'm having a great experience and I'm happy our team is doing well. When I signed there, they were looking for me to have a big impact on the team and I've been able to do that so far."


Quote:
Alston was chosen in the second round of the WNBA Draft by the New York Liberty.

She played in just one regular-season game — for 13 seconds — and was released after the Liberty's second game, the consequence of joining a team that had eight guards on its 12-person roster. (The team's first-round pick, center Adut Bulgak, was waived a few months later.) New York eventually won the Eastern Conference with a 21-13 record.

"They had a lot of (veterans) on the team," Alston said. "It's a business and I didn't take anything personal. They brought in a lot of players who had experience, who had already been in the league.

"It was a great experience to go play against great players in training camp and I was glad I was able to make the roster, even if I was only there for a couple games."

Ameryst said she would like to get back in the WNBA, but doesn't want to look too far ahead.

"I've got no complaints," she said. "I'm happy to have this opportunity and do what I love to do for a job."


Quote:
Al-Qazeres' 26-game regular season ends April 1, with the top four teams advancing to the two-round tournament. Even if Al-Qazeres advances, the season ends in time for Alston to get back to the United States for the WNBA season, which begins May 13.



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PostPosted: 02/21/17 11:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Raincock-Ekunwe is a post player when she's with the Canadian national team. I've never seen her in Europe. I'd say she's a Cierra Burdick type smaller post. That always leaves the possibility that Bill might try to convert her to SF. Who knows? I do remember thinking Raincock-Ekunwe might make a good camp invite for someone, so I have a vaguely positive impression of her. The interesting thing is that she's gotten more playing time than some better known Canadian posts who starred at US colleges -- like Achonwa and the Plouffe sisters. For that matter, Bulgak and Hamblin didn't even make the Olympic team. Not that it necessarily means that Raincock-Ekunwe is better.



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PostPosted: 02/21/17 11:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Raincock-Ekunwe is a post player when she's with the Canadian national team. I've never seen her in Europe. I'd say she's a Cierra Burdick type smaller post. That always leaves the possibility that Bill might try to convert her to SF. Who knows? I do remember thinking Raincock-Ekunwe might make a good camp invite for someone, so I have a vaguely positive impression of her. The interesting thing is that she's gotten more playing time than some better known Canadian posts who starred at US colleges -- like Achonwa and the Plouffe sisters. For that matter, Bulgak and Hamblin didn't even make the Olympic team. Not that it necessarily means that Raincock-Ekunwe is better.


She is playing in Australia and has decent numbers something like 15 and 8, I don't know if she can shoot the 3 which would make her more of a possibility at the SF spot.


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PostPosted: 02/22/17 12:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
root_thing wrote:
Raincock-Ekunwe is a post player when she's with the Canadian national team. I've never seen her in Europe. I'd say she's a Cierra Burdick type smaller post. That always leaves the possibility that Bill might try to convert her to SF. Who knows? I do remember thinking Raincock-Ekunwe might make a good camp invite for someone, so I have a vaguely positive impression of her. The interesting thing is that she's gotten more playing time than some better known Canadian posts who starred at US colleges -- like Achonwa and the Plouffe sisters. For that matter, Bulgak and Hamblin didn't even make the Olympic team. Not that it necessarily means that Raincock-Ekunwe is better.


She is playing in Australia and has decent numbers something like 15 and 8, I don't know if she can shoot the 3 which would make her more of a possibility at the SF spot.


1-11 in 24 Australian games and 0-3 in 6 Olympic matches. So, not a 3Pt shooter.



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 12:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Here's a full game I'm watching now. Raincock-Ekunwe #8 is playing center, matched up against Tolo. Watch the game if you like the color green. Wink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWz4-w7BrMU



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 12:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc and I had a brief discussion about Raincock-Ekunwe over in the WNBL thread a while back. I liked her when she was playing for Canada in the Olympics, and stood out ahead of players I'd heard of before. Hustle, energy-post who at the very least will make people work to beat her out in training camp.



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 1:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Here's a full game I'm watching now. Raincock-Ekunwe #8 is playing center, matched up against Tolo. Watch the game if you like the color green. Wink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWz4-w7BrMU


I usually check the boxscore before I watch an archived game to see if the player I'm "scouting" played significant minutes and performed well. I was lazy this time and it cost me. Raincock-Ekuwe only played 18:37 and she had a crappy game. Even missed some key free throws when it was still competitive. My first impression is that NRE appears shorter than her listed 6-2. It also looks like she can't shoot at all. On the positive side, she moves her feet well on defense. I forgot that Luuuc has game links, so maybe I'll find one where Raincock-Ekunwe played well and watch that later.



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PostPosted: 02/26/17 8:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Do you guys think there will be a significant addition in the neighborhood of draft day? My thought is still yes. I just don't think we're going to see a team with 4 or 5 players all ideally best suited to the 2 spot. What do you guys think?



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PostPosted: 02/26/17 9:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Do you guys think there will be a significant addition in the neighborhood of draft day? My thought is still yes. I just don't think we're going to see a team with 4 or 5 players all ideally best suited to the 2 spot. What do you guys think?


I've said all along that I expect a significant roster move. I still do. But there's always a chance that Bill Laimbeer has been trying and trying and hasn't come up with a deal that genuinely makes sense.



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PostPosted: 02/26/17 9:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Do you guys think there will be a significant addition in the neighborhood of draft day? My thought is still yes. I just don't think we're going to see a team with 4 or 5 players all ideally best suited to the 2 spot. What do you guys think?


I think that's the consensus, but it takes two to make a trade. All these major deals completed early in the process makes me wonder if teams haven't already shot their load. Plus, who out there actually needs 2-guard help?

Even if nothing happens, we actually have less uncertainty than at the start of the last two seasons. Remember, in 2015 the Liberty acquired Prince but we knew she would miss the first 10 games. Everyone was hoping we could survive that period going like 3-7 -- just not 1-9 or 0-10. We also had a bunch of other question marks: Carson, Cash, and Wiggins trying to bounce back from bad seasons, Swords returning to the league after being cut due to injury, and three low profile rookies in Boyd, Stokes, and Allen. In 2016, we knew Prince was out for most of the season and she probably wouldn't be much help even if she returned. So, who was the number 2 option? And then there was no SF on the roster to begin the year. At least for 2017, we know Rodgers is the second option and Prince could be a great third option if she's back to normal. The roster also includes half a dozen third or fourth-year players who have shown enough ability that we can hope one or two will step-up like Sugar did. Yes, the Liberty may not look that impressive on paper, but that was also true the prior two seasons. I honestly believe the talent level on this roster 1 through 12 is better than ever.



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PostPosted: 02/26/17 9:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Do you guys think there will be a significant addition in the neighborhood of draft day? My thought is still yes. I just don't think we're going to see a team with 4 or 5 players all ideally best suited to the 2 spot. What do you guys think?


I've said all along that I expect a significant roster move. I still do. But there's always a chance that Bill Laimbeer has been trying and trying and hasn't come up with a deal that genuinely makes sense.


I've heard some rumors from people I deem credible about a few things BUT nothing I would consider posting here yet.

Or in English...yes the wheels are turning...how they're turning I haven't seen much guidance on that I think credible enough to share.

Will bring back something Bill said at the holiday party...the interest seems to be on the Bigs. and we saw the queens ransom someone whos a serviceable starter but not more in Swords fetched (gross sum total: 2 players and a 1st round pick Shocked ) so I would say anyone not named Tina Charles is fair game...but the offer would have to be godfather level (as in one you can't refuse) to see action

and I do think defensive 3 will be addressed...Allen brings points and much needed outside shooting...but I will go broken record here...as good as her work at Good Angels has been...Bill didn't trust her for a single second in the post season...even when bringing in someone to snipe some 3s would have been prudent...I just don't see the D being there for Bill to be comfortable with Allen, Zellous and maybe wright. Hearing rumors that indeed this may where the Libs are shopping.



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PostPosted: 02/26/17 10:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Happycappie25 wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Do you guys think there will be a significant addition in the neighborhood of draft day? My thought is still yes. I just don't think we're going to see a team with 4 or 5 players all ideally best suited to the 2 spot. What do you guys think?


I've said all along that I expect a significant roster move. I still do. But there's always a chance that Bill Laimbeer has been trying and trying and hasn't come up with a deal that genuinely makes sense.


I've heard some rumors from people I deem credible about a few things BUT nothing I would consider posting here yet.

Or in English...yes the wheels are turning...how they're turning I haven't seen much guidance on that I think credible enough to share.

Will bring back something Bill said at the holiday party...the interest seems to be on the Bigs. and we saw the queens ransom someone whos a serviceable starter but not more in Swords fetched (gross sum total: 2 players and a 1st round pick Shocked ) so I would say anyone not named Tina Charles is fair game...but the offer would have to be godfather level (as in one you can't refuse) to see action

and I do think defensive 3 will be addressed...Allen brings points and much needed outside shooting...but I will go broken record here...as good as her work at Good Angels has been...Bill didn't trust her for a single second in the post season...even when bringing in someone to snipe some 3s would have been prudent...I just don't see the D being there for Bill to be comfortable with Allen, Zellous and maybe wright. Hearing rumors that indeed this may where the Libs are shopping.


It would surely make sense for Bill Laimbeer to strengthen the team at defensive 3 if he can't bring in a really strong all-around player at 3. But I disagree with your "broken record" view. Yes, Laimbeer didn't trust Rebecca Allen in the postseason in 2016. But the "postseason" was only ONE game. And Allen was a young player who hadn't played a full season.

In my view, Laimbeer will give Allen a longer look this season. As with the rest of the Liberty's younger players--as with ANY of the Liberty's players--what they did or didn't do in 2016 won't be decisive in Laimbeer's decisions about how to use players this season.



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PostPosted: 02/26/17 10:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I see where you both are coming from. I think it's unquestionable the 3 spot will be addressed because I don't see NY going with just Zellous behind Allen. It would run counter to how a Bill Laimbeer coached team has ever attained success. I think an alternative to Allen (possibly a better one) is definitely in the cards. I don't say that due to the lack of trust in the playoffs, but rather because the SF spot is a spot where you can assert a physical/height mismatch in your favor with the right player. And we know that when Laimbeer has had success, that's exactly how he has done it.

Given that, I'd be surprised if the Libs still have their 2018 first round pick when the season starts.



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PostPosted: 02/26/17 11:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I see where you both are coming from. I think it's unquestionable the 3 spot will be addressed because I don't see NY going with just Zellous behind Allen. It would run counter to how a Bill Laimbeer coached team has ever attained success. I think an alternative to Allen (possibly a better one) is definitely in the cards. I don't say that due to the lack of trust in the playoffs, but rather because the SF spot is a spot where you can assert a physical/height mismatch in your favor with the right player. And we know that when Laimbeer has had success, that's exactly how he has done it.

Given that, I'd be surprised if the Libs still have their 2018 first round pick when the season starts.


I agree with your thinking about the SF position. I just don't believe that what Laimbeer decided about Allen for a one-game 2016 postseason is all that crucial. If, for example, Allen can become a significant scorer, hit three-pointers, and spread the floor for Charles, she'll get a good deal of playing time. But, even if that happens, it would surely be ideal to have someone to share the SF position who can (as you say) "assert a physical/height mismatch" and help the team that way.



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PostPosted: 02/26/17 11:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

But it still comes back to there has to be someone to trade for, and you have to give something to get something, so what could it be at this point I'm not sure if something is going to happen, bringing in players like Burdick and Raincock-Ekunwe seems like we're crossing our finger one can be that bigger SF who can defend. The options I can come up with for trades all seem pretty unlikely, (obviously there are option I might have missed) but we've all been trying all off season to come up with something and I'm not sure this trade is out there, or if there is one, that it is going to be all that thrilling.

Stokes for Bonner (if she is willing to play this season in NY)

Stokes for Christmas (maybe with #4 or #10 thrown in)
2018 first round pick for Christmas (Maybe with Zellous, Schimmel or #14 thrown in)

Stokes for TRP and #6

Zellous or Wright for Currie or T. Young?
Stokes for Currie and #5
Stokes for Young and #9

Zellous for #7 (not sure a pick resolves the SF situation)

Wright for O'hea
Schimmel and #14 for O'hea
Schimmel and Wright for Clark

Wrigt for R. Williams even though she is another SG
Wright for Dabovic

Someone to Minny for K. Hampton

2018 first round pick for Coleman or S. Johnson?

Rodgers and Stokes for McCoughtry

Who are the possible targets that I might be missing? And what is the asking price?

I'm not against a trade I'm just becoming more skeptical that there is one out there that will help more than it might possible hurt, and the fact that a lot has already happened makes it seems less possible than it did a few weeks ago. I'm also pretty weary of trading Stokes unless it for someone game changing, and even though I like both Zellous and Wright (the other players I could see being traded) I'm not sure what they bring back will be anything more than a lateral move.


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PostPosted: 02/27/17 12:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
Stokes for Bonner (if she is willing to play this season in NY)


I think PHX has enough centers

J-Spoon wrote:
Stokes for Christmas (maybe with #4 or #10 thrown in)


Merry Christmas to Dallas

J-Spoon wrote:
2018 first round pick for Christmas (Maybe with Zellous, Schimmel or #14 thrown in)


You're not appreciating the value of the 2018 draft

J-Spoon wrote:
Stokes for TRP and #6


I think WAS might be targeting somebody with that #6 pick.

J-Spoon wrote:
Zellous for #7 (not sure a pick resolves the SF situation)


Only if you think a rookie will help your situation

J-Spoon wrote:
Schimmel and #14 for O'hea
Schimmel and Wright for ClarkWright for O'hea


Most teams probably know Schimmel could be cut

J-Spoon wrote:
Wright for O'hea
Wright for R. Williams even though she is another SG
Wright for Dabovic


All the attempts to trade Wright are pretty shameful

J-Spoon wrote:
Someone to Minny for K. Hampton


Second rounder in 2018?

J-Spoon wrote:
Rodgers and Stokes for McCoughtry


Toss in the first round in 2018



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PostPosted: 02/27/17 1:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Here is the distribution of minutes for that playoff game against Phoenix:

Code:

Tina Charles      36:22
Swin Cash         11:34
Carolyn Swords    26:35
Sugar Rodgers     24:12
Tanisha Wright    28:11
Shavonte Zellous  27:49
Brittany Boyd     11:58
Epiphanny Prince  16:40
Amanda Zahui B     6:26
Kiah Stokes       10:14
Rebecca Allen       -
Shoni Schimmel      -


If Laimbeer didn't trust Allen's defense, which better defender got her minutes? Well, it looks like Prince took Allen's place in the rotation. Now, if your goal is to improve your defense against the biggest team in the league, one with only two players under six feet tall (Xargay 5-11, Harding 5-8 ), do you bench the 6-1 player with long arms and good speed in favor of a 5-9 player who is still recovering from her knee injury? It doesn't sound logical to me -- especially since Prince is not known for her defense. Furthermore, if this is about trust, it doesn't appear that Bill trusted Cash or Zahui B either. Even Rodgers played fewer minutes than usual. Stokes didn't look recovered from her injury, so it's no surprise her minutes dropped. Boyd essentially took herself out of the game by racking up 5 fouls in under 12 minutes. So who got extra minutes besides Prince? Swords, Wright, and Zellous. Carolyn is no longer with the team. If minutes in that one playoff game is so indicative of what's to come, then does New York's future lie with Wright and Zellous? Confused

Laimbeer told Allen before the season ended that she might not play against Phoenix. This was not an in-game decision. The team finished the season playing poorly, and I think Bill couldn't find any quick solutions to the problem. So, he did what coaches usually do when they run out of ideas -- go conservative and use veterans. I don't think it had anything to do with offense or defense. It was mostly "these guys have been here before". As things turned out, Prince actually played pretty well -- scoring 12 points in under 17 minutes. But that was offensive success, not defense.



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PostPosted: 02/27/17 2:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Here is the distribution of minutes for that playoff game against Phoenix:

Code:

Tina Charles      36:22
Swin Cash         11:34
Carolyn Swords    26:35
Sugar Rodgers     24:12
Tanisha Wright    28:11
Shavonte Zellous  27:49
Brittany Boyd     11:58
Epiphanny Prince  16:40
Amanda Zahui B     6:26
Kiah Stokes       10:14
Rebecca Allen       -
Shoni Schimmel      -


If Laimbeer didn't trust Allen's defense, which better defender got her minutes? Well, it looks like Prince took Allen's place in the rotation. Now, if your goal is to improve your defense against the biggest team in the league, one with only two players under six feet tall (Xargay 5-11, Harding 5-8 ), do you bench the 6-1 player with long arms and good speed in favor of a 5-9 player who is still recovering from her knee injury? It doesn't sound logical to me -- especially since Prince is not known for her defense. Furthermore, if this is about trust, it doesn't appear that Bill trusted Cash or Zahui B either. Even Rodgers played fewer minutes than usual. Stokes didn't look recovered from her injury, so it's no surprise her minutes dropped. Boyd essentially took herself out of the game by racking up 5 fouls in under 12 minutes. So who got extra minutes besides Prince? Swords, Wright, and Zellous. Carolyn is no longer with the team. If minutes in that one playoff game is so indicative of what's to come, then does New York's future lie with Wright and Zellous? Confused

Laimbeer told Allen before the season ended that she might not play against Phoenix. This was not an in-game decision. The team finished the season playing poorly, and I think Bill couldn't find any quick solutions to the problem. So, he did what coaches usually do when they run out of ideas -- go conservative and use veterans. I don't think it had anything to do with offense or defense. It was mostly "these guys have been here before". As things turned out, Prince actually played pretty well -- scoring 12 points in under 17 minutes. But that was offensive success, not defense.


Thanks for sharing the breakdown of playing time for that game and for your analysis. Goes along with what I was trying to say above.

My guess: whether there is a significant roster move for a SF or not, Bill Laimbeer will come into training camp with an open mind about the team's younger players. And Rebecca Allen will have an opportunity to show that her offense and defense are good enough to merit significant playing time.

Indeed, New York looks likely to have enough talent from 1-12 on the roster that there will be plenty of competition for playing time. If I'm right, training camp and the first 10-15 games of the season will be a testing ground to see what these players can give the Liberty in 2017.



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PostPosted: 02/27/17 2:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades just listing out all the possibilities even slight that I can come up with,

But the actual point of the whole post is that I don't think we'll make a trade, because I don't think there is a trade out there for us to make that will improve our SF situation, at least without hurting our team by giving up other assets we shouldn't be giving up.

I like Wright, want to keep Wright, a little surprised we haven't re-signed her, I like Zellous and Stokes, want to keep Zellous and Stokes but those three along with the 2018 first round pick are our only assets that I think we could move. Maybe Zahui B, but I don't think Zahui B. has proved herself enough in the W to carry a big return even though I think she could break out next season, MIP and Six Woman on the table IMO.


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PostPosted: 02/27/17 12:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hard to say what's hiding under the black sweats, but Schimmel still seems a bit on the puffy side. Only a couple months until camp starts.




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PostPosted: 02/27/17 1:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Her face isn't nearly as puffy as when she was at her fattest. Nice to see she is still inspiring youngsters anyway.



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PostPosted: 02/27/17 1:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
Her face isn't nearly as puffy as when she was at her fattest. Nice to see she is still inspiring youngsters anyway.


yeah i was thinking the same the face has lost a bit of its puffiness. Im rooting for you shoni , we are all rooting for you Laughing



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