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toad455



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PostPosted: 07/01/17 4:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Liberty just posted a video on Facebook of the team practicing at the Riverside Epicenter. Sugar is seen practicing with them team. Hope she plays tomorrow.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 07/02/17 10:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/3sXSTs62GGA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 07/03/17 1:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Right from the beginning of the season, with no thought of losing Boyd, I wasn't as impressed with our team's level of talent as some Liberty fans. I felt that for the team to be successful at least two of our four third-year players would have to take a significant step forward in their level of play. Perhaps Boyd would have. We'll never know. But the season is almost half over and the results from Rebecca Allen, Zahui B., and Stokes (apart from a short, great stretch) have been rather disappointing.

Judging our current roster--without Boyd, with what we've been seeing from our third-year players--I'm not all that impressed with the talent level of the team. We're at .500. Seems about right for the players we have. I'm not convinced that our current roster would be significantly better with any other coach.



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shontay33



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PostPosted: 07/03/17 4:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nothing to worry about unless there is a plethora of injures that plague the team or Tina Charles gets injured(knock on wood) New York will be in the playoffs. When looking at their schedule, there are probably four or five teams that they may struggle with. They play Chicago, PHX,Indiana , ATL, DAL, SA in the remaining schedule. If they play like they are supposed to, they should not have too much trouble winning against these teams due to their advantages at certain positions.


root_thing



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PostPosted: 07/03/17 4:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Player development is an important part of a coach's job. If your young players played well last season, went on to have success overseas, and then suddenly become ineffective, well doesn't the coaching staff bear some responsibility? We gave Laimbeer credit for being ahead of schedule in 2015. We gave him credit last season for winning games while also developing young players. He also got credit for "stealing" Zahui B. and Schimmel in trades. So, now that things are going badly, are we going to absolve him of all blame and simply point our fingers at the players? New management in most team sports usually comes in with a five-year plan. This is Laimbeer's fifth year. If the talent isn't good enough, then who is to blame? Isn't he largely responsible for acquiring these players? And if the talent is good enough, then the coaching staff is responsible for team performance -- bad or good. You can make excuses for a couple of years, maybe even three. By year five, short of injuries, there's nowhere to hide. Yes, Boyd is injured and she looked good before going down. However, she played a total of 32 minutes. It's not like she was on a certain path toward being an all-star.

The thing that has bothered me the most these last five seasons is the Liberty constantly losing in blowouts. Even in 2015, having the best record in the league didn't prevent us from incurring several lopsided losses. When things go badly, it's like we're punching bags. Sure, every team loses a blowout now and then. However, the persistence of these embarrassments across seasons with different rosters indicates to me that there is something fundamentally wrong. It speaks to the coaching staff's over-reliance on system or style of play. Either they're inflexible or they're unable to make in-game adjustments. Both are severe limitations.



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PostPosted: 07/03/17 4:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Player development is an important part of a coach's job. If your young players played well last season, went on to have success overseas, and then suddenly become ineffective, well doesn't the coaching staff bear some responsibility? We gave Laimbeer credit for being ahead of schedule in 2015. We gave him credit last season for winning games while also developing young players. He also got credit for "stealing" Zahui B. and Schimmel in trades. So, now that things are going badly, are we going to absolve him of all blame and simply point our fingers at the players? New management in most team sports usually comes in with a five-year plan. This is Laimbeer's fifth year. If the talent isn't good enough, then who is to blame? Isn't he largely responsible for acquiring these players? And if the talent is good enough, then the coaching staff is responsible for team performance -- bad or good. You can make excuses for a couple of years, maybe even three. By year five, short of injuries, there's nowhere to hide. Yes, Boyd is injured and she looked good before going down. However, she played a total of 32 minutes. It's not like she was on a certain path toward being an all-star.

The thing that has bothered me the most these last five seasons is the Liberty constantly losing in blowouts. Even in 2015, having the best record in the league didn't prevent us from incurring several lopsided losses. When things go badly, it's like we're punching bags. Sure, every team loses a blowout now and then. However, the persistence of these embarrassments across seasons with different rosters indicates to me that there is something fundamentally wrong. It speaks to the coaching staff's over-reliance on system or style of play. Either they're inflexible or they're unable to make in-game adjustments. Both are severe limitations.


Nice job of putting words in my mouth. Did I "absolve him (Bill Laimbeer) of all blame and simply point (our) fingers at the players"? I didn't come within a mile of that. I said I'm not convinced that our current roster would be better with any other coach. I stand by that statement. By what I said, not any exaggeration of what I said.

If it'll make you happier for me to say that Bill Laimbeer and the coaching staff bear some responsibility for the team's current problems, I have no problem with saying that. And now I have for you and everyone to see.

I didn't in any way address previous seasons or roster decisions. I made no overall comment on the roster from previous seasons, on Bill Laimbeer's job as a coach in previous seasons, or on front office personnel decisions.

I'm not as impressed as some Liberty fans with the team's current level of talent. So, yes, Bill Laimbeer has a significant responsibility there, along with Kristin Bernert (for decisions in previous years), sexual harasser Isiah Thomas, and now presumably Swin Cash. Moreover, I've believed all along that Bill Laimbeer was the key figure in these decisions--even after he lost the title of GM--and I've said that here even when others have challenged it.



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LibFan25



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PostPosted: 07/03/17 5:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Player development is an important part of a coach's job. If your young players played well last season, went on to have success overseas, and then suddenly become ineffective, well doesn't the coaching staff bear some responsibility? We gave Laimbeer credit for being ahead of schedule in 2015. We gave him credit last season for winning games while also developing young players. He also got credit for "stealing" Zahui B. and Schimmel in trades. So, now that things are going badly, are we going to absolve him of all blame and simply point our fingers at the players? New management in most team sports usually comes in with a five-year plan. This is Laimbeer's fifth year. If the talent isn't good enough, then who is to blame? Isn't he largely responsible for acquiring these players? And if the talent is good enough, then the coaching staff is responsible for team performance -- bad or good. You can make excuses for a couple of years, maybe even three. By year five, short of injuries, there's nowhere to hide. Yes, Boyd is injured and she looked good before going down. However, she played a total of 32 minutes. It's not like she was on a certain path toward being an all-star.

The thing that has bothered me the most these last five seasons is the Liberty constantly losing in blowouts. Even in 2015, having the best record in the league didn't prevent us from incurring several lopsided losses. When things go badly, it's like we're punching bags. Sure, every team loses a blowout now and then. However, the persistence of these embarrassments across seasons with different rosters indicates to me that there is something fundamentally wrong. It speaks to the coaching staff's over-reliance on system or style of play. Either they're inflexible or they're unable to make in-game adjustments. Both are severe limitations.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 2:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm a Laimbeer fan. But separating that let's remember that we've only had Piph and Rodgers in the starting lineup together for 3 of our 14 games, and those were early season games, two of which were against Minny and LA. Let's see what we do when we have them both together.

Also, I'm not so ready to pin Stokes' issues on Laimbeer. She had one phenomenal set of games so obviously something is in there. Her foul shooting has improved so that part was worked on. And she doesn't rebound or block and alter shots consistently, which are her strengths already. If she's not doing things she's naturally good at, then something is probably wrong separate from coaching.

Zahui is a different story. But not everyone develops at the same rate. Sugar has. Boyd was on her way.

I have a different take on the whole thing. I don't love how the team was put together in the first place, something I think Laimbeer does have a major influence on. I thought some things would be different, but the one thing that really worried me coming into the season was a disproportionate reliance on Stokes to anchor the D. I felt that if anything went wrong with that, what we're built on would no longer be. I think that's been proven true. Offensively we were up to sixth in efficiency heading into D.C. I think with Sugar back offense won't be a problem. But to be a great team we need to be a dominant defensive and rebounding team. And we aren't. And that speaks to how the team is built and how often it gets physically neutralized. Which these days happens often. Even against DC our defense was good. Our rebounding was ordinary. Without Stokes at her best, the component of our team that controls that part of the game isn't there with the same consistency. Our rebounding % is .521, which is good. But I'd bet that percentage is disproportionately tied to NY winning 5 of 6 in June, especially the 3 double-digit rebounding games Kiah had.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 9:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:

Nice job of putting words in my mouth. Did I "absolve him (Bill Laimbeer) of all blame and simply point (our) fingers at the players"? I didn't come within a mile of that. I said I'm not convinced that our current roster would be better with any other coach. I stand by that statement. By what I said, not any exaggeration of what I said.

If it'll make you happier for me to say that Bill Laimbeer and the coaching staff bear some responsibility for the team's current problems, I have no problem with saying that. And now I have for you and everyone to see.

I didn't in any way address previous seasons or roster decisions. I made no overall comment on the roster from previous seasons, on Bill Laimbeer's job as a coach in previous seasons, or on front office personnel decisions.

I'm not as impressed as some Liberty fans with the team's current level of talent. So, yes, Bill Laimbeer has a significant responsibility there, along with Kristin Bernert (for decisions in previous years), sexual harasser Isiah Thomas, and now presumably Swin Cash. Moreover, I've believed all along that Bill Laimbeer was the key figure in these decisions--even after he lost the title of GM--and I've said that here even when others have challenged it.

I think you're indulging your ego. Yes, some of what I said was in response to your post, but mostly it addressed what people have been saying here in general. Separately, I also expressed some feelings about things that bothered me over the last few years. Most of what I wrote had nothing to do with you.


I'm not calling for a coaching change at the moment. Just to make that clear, I'm bringing over what I wrote on the last game thread:

root_thing wrote:
As I've been saying all along, Laimbeer is trying to figure it out. They lost three starters, and even though two were faux starters, it still changes the rotations. On top of that, I think he finally came to the realization that you can't win championships anymore playing 2000's grind-it-out basketball. So, he's trying to find some other way of playing. Then, throw in some real or self-inflicted problems with the young players, and now he really has a giant puzzle to solve. That four-game winning streak was a mirage. He was just piecing it together while Prince and Vaughn were away. Three of those games took advantage of Stokes pushing people around, but obviously opposing coaches were going to adjust. So, now Laimbeer is back to square one. The new stuff isn't working and the old stuff isn't working. The Liberty are now 7th in defensive rating and 9th in offense. That's probably not a lottery team, but it's bottom playoff with the trend going downward. I said after the 2014 season that Laimbeer should hire a lifer-type coach who knows everything about Xs and Os. I still think that's the case. He's a good leader in the sense that he communicates well and his players seem to like him. They play hard for him. I just don't think Bill is up to snuff when it comes to the Xs and Os, and it doesn't seem like Katie and Herb are helping either.

New York is sitting in the middle of the pack and they have 20 games left -- over half the season. That's plenty of time to turn things around. And as I said in an earlier post, I'm more interested in playing well going into the playoffs than I am in having a great regular season record.



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 10:19 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Just to inject a few positives. Tina is shooting .450. Piph is shooting .394. Sugar is shooting .361. I would bet that having all 3 together will push all those numbers up. Also, in spite of my criticisms of the defense and rebounding, they are at least trending upward in defense at 6th in efficiency. For the type of team we have, that stll isn't good enough, but at least we are trending the right way. However, I also think the schedule favors us after the next two road games. My goal would now be, split the next two, hopefully with a win over Seattle to get the tiebreaker. Right now we are only half a game out of the 4 seed in a situation where we are capable of playing much better. Like Root, I want to get hot at the right time for a change, and particularly have Kiah rediscover her defensive and rebounding abilities. If she's a nightly factor and we keep everyone else healthy, the Liberty are capable of beating anyone.

Regarding the schedule, after these next two games we are done with Seattle and Phoenix, two teams we have had trouble with in recent years. We have 6 with Chicago and Indiana combined, teams we should beat in terms of matchups and their respective deficiencies in either offense or defense. Two against SAS, same deal. Right there would be an expectation of winning 7 of 8. Here is what we have left:

-vs DC (2)
-vs CT, at CT
-vs CHI (2), at CHI
-vs IND, at IND (2)
-vs MIN, at MIN
-vs LA, at LA
-vs SAS, at SAS
-at ATL
-at DAL
-at SEA
-at PHX

Sooner or later my expectation is that Kiah will step up and help us go on a run. Meanwhile I'm looking for splits vs. DC and CT, 7 of 8 vs. CHI, SAS and IND, 1 of 4 against the top 2 teams and split vs. the 4 teams on the bottom. That gets us to 19-15, and maybe we can steal a couple more if we get hot at the right time and go into the playoffs on a roll.



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 10:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bill is one of the best coaches in the game. He's a great strategist, pretty decent in trades (how did he get the 'trader bill' sobriquet?), and seems to get good things from some marginal players (looking at Swords for instance). Is he perfect? Of course not. But those who want to replace him, I'd like to hear who you'd replace him with?

NY fans are a fickle bunch. Razz

Coming in to the year, there were a lot of question marks, with SF being one of the biggest. It's still a problem. I've always liked Zellous and she's doing a decent job there, but she really isn't a SF in this day and age. We also thought PG was a question mark with hopes that Boyd would fill that gap. Again, Piph is not really a PG so playing her there is not to best advantage...but she's the best you have there in the moment (and it's not even close). Losing Piph for a bunch of games hurt. Losing Sugar even for a few games hurts. Essentially what you have is one all star player (who sometimes falls in love with her outside shot), two very good players who have missed time, a few (very few) decent role players, one significant injury, and a pretty big zero on the bench. All in all I would suggest that perhaps your expectations have been a bit high.

One of the problems coaching in NY is that the team is never in the lottery so acquiring all star level players is pretty tricky. Essentially you got Tina because she demanded to come. You got Piph because Cappie demanded to come, then got traded for Piph. Sugar was a development project that worked out (giving Bill credit here). I didn't understand the trade that sent Swords into obscurity and ineffectiveness on the left coast. Vaughn is a decent, if undersized post. I guess the presumption was that Stokes would play starter's minutes and Vaughn could back her up. The thing is - for a team whose best player is a PF who prefers to play outside - that team needs inside presence/rebounding more than just about anything else. Swords was pretty decent at that the way she was being used (I give Bill credit for figuring out the best way to use her). Vaughn works hard but is not a defensive presence. And Hartley, IMO has never shown shit since she's been a pro. She may in fact be having her best year this year but it's still pretty marginal. I think she's still in the league because she played at UConn so the aura protects her for awhile. Ekunwe has shown a few bright moments and I think could be developed. Don't know what the story is with Zahui and Stokes but NY is still in need of a big post!

All in all, it's a decent team with a record to match. You're headed for the playoffs again so no lottery balls next year. But the draft is indeed deep so perhaps Bill can find a gem at #7 or 8.



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 11:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I want to . . . have Kiah rediscover her defensive and rebounding abilities. If she's a nightly factor and we keep everyone else healthy, the Liberty are capable of beating anyone.

Sooner or later my expectation is that Kiah will step up and help us go on a run.


Keep on waiting if you're an optimist. Fans who have followed her seven basketball seasons since entering UConn are still waiting. Stokes's production per minute on points, rebounds and blocks is worse in the WNBA than during her four year UConn career as a bench player, and, indeed, worse than her freshman year at UConn.

PPM
UConn freshman: 0.34
UConn career: 0.27
WNBA career: 0.25

RPM
UConn freshman: 0.34
UConn career: 0.36
WNBA career: 0.28

BPM
UConn freshman: 0.10
UConn career: 0.14
WNBA career: 0.07
NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 11:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nah. Just a realist. There's no reason she can't be as consistent this year as she's been the previous two. The fact that her rebounds and blocks are close to collegiate level isn't a bad sign in my eyes. The quality of play is tougher yet she still has the tools to be a force in those areas.



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 11:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
New York is sitting in the middle of the pack and they have 20 games left -- over half the season. That's plenty of time to turn things around. And as I said in an earlier post, I'm more interested in playing well going into the playoffs than I am in having a great regular season record.

Hey, best-case scenario season is finishing 8th, getting the 5th pick in the draft, then winning all of two games to end up in a best-of-five semi-final series that you'd have been in if you'd finished 1st. Significantly stranger things have happened.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 11:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Why tank when we can still get a high quality player at picks #5 - #8?



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 1:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hopefully we win 4 of next 5 (3 at home) to end the draft discussion. I surely didn't think draft position would be a topic of conversation at this point.



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 1:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

again, considering the cellar dwellers in the league this year, I doubt we fall lower than a #6 seed.



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 1:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Why tank when we can still get a high quality player at picks #5 - #8?


Conversely - why make the playoff(s) to get maybe one lousy game in front of a nearly empty arena (whether home or away), likely lose money on deal and have a 0% chance of winning the championship when you can have a 10% chance (or better) of getting the No. 1 pick? For 7or 8 of the WNBA teams this season, I don't see any benefit in making the playoffs - the tank may be very crowded come August. For teams that can put 8-10k fans in the seats for a home game it may be worth it finanically. The rest of the teams seem to have playoff games in front of hundreds rather than thousands of fans.


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PostPosted: 07/04/17 1:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I still think we're finishing 4. It stands to reason we will be better with 4 healthy scorers at the same time.



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 1:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I still think we're finishing 4. It stands to reason we will be better with 4 healthy scorers at the same time.


I think finishing 4th is a reasonable guess. But right now there's only a one game difference between Phoenix in 4th and Atlanta in 10th. I'm not convinced that any of these seven teams is dramatically better or worse than the others. They could still all be very close after 34 games.

I'd never root for my team to tank. But I haven't and don't see this year's Liberty team as a genuine championship contender. With that in mind, I won't be crushed if we finish 6th, 8th, even 10th instead of 4th. Yes, it's likely to be a deep draft, but having a higher pick could be quite valuable.



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 2:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
root_thing wrote:
New York is sitting in the middle of the pack and they have 20 games left -- over half the season. That's plenty of time to turn things around. And as I said in an earlier post, I'm more interested in playing well going into the playoffs than I am in having a great regular season record.

Hey, best-case scenario season is finishing 8th, getting the 5th pick in the draft, then winning all of two games to end up in a best-of-five semi-final series that you'd have been in if you'd finished 1st. Significantly stranger things have happened.


yep that would be the Perfect storm.

Other then Minnesota and LA, we can beat. but who knows we get hot and make a miracle run and win the whole damn thing lol


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PostPosted: 07/04/17 2:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

#3 seed is reasonable. Washington can't win games vs. strong post teams(Minnesota, Los Angeles, Connecticut)..



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 3:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
toad455 wrote:
Why tank when we can still get a high quality player at picks #5 - #8?


Conversely - why make the playoff(s) to get maybe one lousy game in front of a nearly empty arena (whether home or away), likely lose money on deal and have a 0% chance of winning the championship when you can have a 10% chance (or better) of getting the No. 1 pick? For 7or 8 of the WNBA teams this season, I don't see any benefit in making the playoffs - the tank may be very crowded come August. For teams that can put 8-10k fans in the seats for a home game it may be worth it finanically. The rest of the teams seem to have playoff games in front of hundreds rather than thousands of fans.





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PostPosted: 07/04/17 3:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Really. The last time Atlanta was in the lottery they traded away a pick that could have been Jonquel Jones.



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 4:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Well Shades if you had lived in Atlanta for almost 40 years and only seen one playoffs with a happy ending (95 Braves) and that in a sport you didn't really care about, you might be a bit jaded too. Despite the Dream, Hawks, Braves and Falcons making the playoffs quite often save for once it has been a cruel joke. For the Dream its ended in 9 straight losses in the finals - 3 of 3 sweeps. Fans on Rebkell frequently posted they were sick of weak EC teams (like the Dream) getting blown out every year. And please don't even bring up the team that blew the biggest lead in SB history. I realize the Lynx need a punching bag, but I'd rather it was another team. We get blown out enough by them in the regular season to satisfy me.

Doesn't mean I don't want my team to win. Every game I go to or watch, I want them to win. I accept that they may not and often don't expect them to win. I am all the more pleased if they do. What the other STH think I haven't a clue, nor do I care (If I did I would ask them). I just am saying making the playoffs is overrated unless the team is true contender, and not just a pretender, or worse. As to why we play the game - its to win the game - without thinking about the next game, the playoff(s) or the next season. If winning the game isn't enough to make one want to go, then they should stay home.

As for Draft picks - Sykes and Gray were both there at No. 4. Cooper has brought in Williams, Clarendon, Holmes and Sykes since last season - I'd say he's doing pretty well, despite missing on Jones.


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PostPosted: 07/04/17 5:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
Cooper has brought in Williams, Clarendon, Holmes and Sykes since last season - I'd say he's doing pretty well, despite missing on Jones.


Plus you can probably find small ways McCoughtry, Hayes, and Dantas can contribute. This almost sounds like hope. Sykes has been breaking out for about three games. If she keeps it up, ATL fortunes can change just like that.

Add Russell, Canada, or Billings next year... even more hope without dropping into the lottery. If you like rolling the dice, you can gamble on another foreign player in Vadeeva without dropping into the lottery.



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 5:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hearing names like Russell and DeShields makes me lose hope even more. Razz


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PostPosted: 07/04/17 5:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
Hearing names like Russell and DeShields makes me lose hope even more.


DeShields might be that 10% player in the lottery if Stevens doesn't declare early. Just think, a player you think you don't even want might be waiting for you as a reward for tanking.



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 6:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm not saying we should tank, I'm just saying I understand the logic of it, and getting into the playoffs is not really much of a reward. It is sort of looking on the bright side. I'm not sure which would be worse - getting DD at 4 or Russell at 5,6 or 7 (though I think she it more like a second round pick).


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PostPosted: 07/04/17 6:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Liberty playing at their best can beat the likes of Minnesota & Los Angeles. We all know the talent is there and we've seen them play very well this season, so that's why I'm saying tanking isn't an option. If we were a borderline lottery team, then it's plausible.



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 8:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I also think the Liberty are better than their record indicates. I think Myrtle made some good points above that I want to add onto. No question they don't have the size at the 3 spot against certain teams, particularly with Allen not contributing. Bria Holmes posted up Z a few times on Sunday. Also, I think as you see Z do more scoring and playmaking, she has less energy left to get on the boards. Her rebounding numbers were better earlier in the season. Somewhat ironically, I had questioned Allen's D and rebounding coming into the season. Her offense has been absent, but her D and rebounding have been quite good. If she had been more of a contributor on offense, we might not be considering the 3 spot as a semi-weakness.

Further, I thought Piph's on-ball D before Eurobasket was pretty good. It hasn't been since she's been back. Watching DC play LA, The Sims/Latta matchup was notable because Sims didn't really let Latta break down the defense...and this was a time when DC desperately needed the energy as they were in the process of blowing a 17 point lead. Contrast that with Latta basically having a party against NY's PGs, there you go. Don't remember exactly how much Piph was on Latta, but it's irrelevant, as she's been broken down quite a bit no matter who she guards.

I think coming into the season, since we heard Bill talk about using the team's depth and speed, they were basically looking to tire out teams with post play and then run them into the ground in the fourth quarter. With Boyd, there were elements of that that made a lot of sense. I felt even back then that Piph and Sugar had to be on the floor quite a bit together in order for the team to be most effective. But if you look at the original plan, it made some sense. Using a combo of post play and speed would undoubtedly tire opponents, thus making our defense better. Couple the Boyd loss with Allen, Zahui and Stokes all being worse than last year, and what looked like a pretty deep team suddenly isn't anymore. I think many of us thought two of those three had to get better for the Libs to be championship caliber. Now I think we'd settle for all 3 being the same. So, in defense of Bill and the construction of the team, I think what they planned for and what actually happened due to Boyd's injury and unexpected declines of the other young players has really changed that quite a lot. And if you look at just the big 4 along with Boyd, I think we'd have really run some teams into the ground. And Boyd's speed would have been a better match for J. Thomas, Latta, etc. Even without Boyd, we've had big fourth quarter runs twice against Dallas and one each against CT and Atlanta. We lost two of the games, but the speed of Z (and Sugar against ATL) had a noticeable effect on both of those teams. Each was clearly worn. My point being that we haven't had all 11 players (outside of Boyd) available to wear down opponents sooner. Now we will again.

This all said, I think we also have a nice nucleus of 4 scorers. Three of them defend pretty well. If Stokes is Stokes again, I think we look pretty good again.

Not to mention, this makes me think back to the 2010 Libs. Started off 7-9, and back then I thought the team was better than that by quite a bit. I had started to give up on thoughts of success. Then they won 14 of 16. And now we have our core group playing together again. Let's see what happens.



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 9:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
I'm not saying we should tank, I'm just saying I understand the logic of it, and getting into the playoffs is not really much of a reward. It is sort of looking on the bright side. I'm not sure which would be worse - getting DD at 4 or Russell at 5,6 or 7 (though I think she it more like a second round pick).


I'd insist on the Lynx taking Russell at #12. I think she has quite a bit more promise than Fagbenle.

Cooper has a love for Tennessee players (even though he ends up never keeping them), so I'm betting he's going to get one of the Big Three Tennessee players one way or another.... and you could use help at the post, imo.



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PostPosted: 07/04/17 9:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Russell at 12 works for me. I agree - our posts are short, and Sancho is no longer the player she once was. I just think Russell is nothing but tall. No skills, half the time she in a no show. The LVols have consistently underperformed their alleged talent. I think that their talent is just overrated.


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PostPosted: 07/05/17 5:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I also think the Liberty are better than their record indicates. I think Myrtle made some good points above that I want to add onto. No question they don't have the size at the 3 spot against certain teams, particularly with Allen not contributing. Bria Holmes posted up Z a few times on Sunday. Also, I think as you see Z do more scoring and playmaking, she has less energy left to get on the boards. Her rebounding numbers were better earlier in the season. Somewhat ironically, I had questioned Allen's D and rebounding coming into the season. Her offense has been absent, but her D and rebounding have been quite good. If she had been more of a contributor on offense, we might not be considering the 3 spot as a semi-weakness.

Further, I thought Piph's on-ball D before Eurobasket was pretty good. It hasn't been since she's been back. Watching DC play LA, The Sims/Latta matchup was notable because Sims didn't really let Latta break down the defense...and this was a time when DC desperately needed the energy as they were in the process of blowing a 17 point lead. Contrast that with Latta basically having a party against NY's PGs, there you go. Don't remember exactly how much Piph was on Latta, but it's irrelevant, as she's been broken down quite a bit no matter who she guards.

I think coming into the season, since we heard Bill talk about using the team's depth and speed, they were basically looking to tire out teams with post play and then run them into the ground in the fourth quarter. With Boyd, there were elements of that that made a lot of sense. I felt even back then that Piph and Sugar had to be on the floor quite a bit together in order for the team to be most effective. But if you look at the original plan, it made some sense. Using a combo of post play and speed would undoubtedly tire opponents, thus making our defense better. Couple the Boyd loss with Allen, Zahui and Stokes all being worse than last year, and what looked like a pretty deep team suddenly isn't anymore. I think many of us thought two of those three had to get better for the Libs to be championship caliber. Now I think we'd settle for all 3 being the same. So, in defense of Bill and the construction of the team, I think what they planned for and what actually happened due to Boyd's injury and unexpected declines of the other young players has really changed that quite a lot. And if you look at just the big 4 along with Boyd, I think we'd have really run some teams into the ground. And Boyd's speed would have been a better match for J. Thomas, Latta, etc. Even without Boyd, we've had big fourth quarter runs twice against Dallas and one each against CT and Atlanta. We lost two of the games, but the speed of Z (and Sugar against ATL) had a noticeable effect on both of those teams. Each was clearly worn. My point being that we haven't had all 11 players (outside of Boyd) available to wear down opponents sooner. Now we will again.

This all said, I think we also have a nice nucleus of 4 scorers. Three of them defend pretty well. If Stokes is Stokes again, I think we look pretty good again.

Not to mention, this makes me think back to the 2010 Libs. Started off 7-9, and back then I thought the team was better than that by quite a bit. I had started to give up on thoughts of success. Then they won 14 of 16. And now we have our core group playing together again. Let's see what happens.


The 10 team tho didn't click until they made a move (Jackson for Pierson) so there is that element.



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PostPosted: 07/05/17 9:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I thought of that. But I'm hoping that since we haven't seen this team with 11 activated simultaneously, maybe that will be the jolt needed. But yes Pierson was a huge addition.



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PostPosted: 07/05/17 9:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aerial Powers is close to being healthy. Just saying. Wink



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PostPosted: 07/05/17 9:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Aerial Powers is close to being healthy. Just saying. Wink


On a team with a six player rotation at spots 1-3, Powers will have a hard time getting minutes. Would be a shame to see her sitting on their bench. Powers to New York for Stokes & our 2nd round pick?



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PostPosted: 07/05/17 9:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Aerial Powers is close to being healthy. Just saying. Wink


On a team with a six player rotation at spots 1-3, Powers will have a hard time getting minutes. Would be a shame to see her sitting on their bench. Powers to New York for Stokes & our 2nd round pick?



Probably need a 1st to get her


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PostPosted: 07/05/17 10:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I wouldn't trade Stokes at this point (unless it's to add a proven defensive presence in the post) because I feel we'd be selling low, and we still need her if she reemerges. My concern about dealing a first is pretty much not a talent thing, but a question of when she will be ready to contribute. She'd have to learn a different and rather regimented system. And she'd have to be in game shape. If you have both of those elements, not only do I think she's a significant part of the rotation, but I also think it gives you some of that depth edge you've lost with Boyd going down. She's another speed player, which would enable you to use a wider variety of 2 and 3-spot combos to match up with opponents accordingly. The question is when. If you aren't going to have her at full speed for another 3 weeks, is it worth it to trade a first rounder? I'm sure she's as talented as a lot of people in that general range, but you have to feel comfortable that your pick is going to be in the 8 or 9 range rather than the 5 range in order to pull the trigger I would think.

Down the road, Powers might even be able to play some 4 spot if you go small, so I think long-term she gives you a lot of versatility. I do need some short-term assurances about her ability to contribute before I pull the trigger though.

Another plus side, if CT is a potential playoff opponent in a one-and-done, that means you'd add a player who matches up well to Alyssa Thomas. In general, I think she'd be an excellent addition in a one-and-done situation due to her versatility, ability to get to the foul line, and ability to put up points quickly.



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PostPosted: 07/14/17 11:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Some shooting stats after 17 games:

Field Goal Percentage: Vaughn 54.4%, Raincock-Ekunwe 48.6%, Charles 45.4%, Stokes 45.2%, Zellous 42.9%, Zahui B 38.7%, Hartley 38.1%, Lindsay Allen 37%, Prince 36.8%, Rodgers 34.7%, Rebecca Allen 28.9%.
Team 41.7%. Opposition: 41%.

Three-Point Field Goals: Zellous 38.9%, Rodgers 35%, Prince 32.7%, Charles 31.3%, Rebecca Allen 27.3%, Zahui B 25%, Hartley 23.7%. Team: 30.9%. Opposition: 35.4%.

Free-Throw Percentage: Team 75.8%, Opposition 80.4%.

No doubt all this would look much worse if we had stats covering only the last eight games, six of them ending in Liberty losses. Perhaps someone else can provide that.

There are many elements to winning basketball games, but you have to put the ball in the basket.



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PostPosted: 07/15/17 7:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Those shooting % for Prince and Rodgers are terrible. Both need to be above 40%. And Rebecca Allen shooting 29%!!! Why is she on our roster?? We have a tough next four games: WAS, CON, MIN, IND. we need to go 2-2 here. Connecticut's had are number all season and Minnesota is Minnesota. No Delle Donne or Hill on Sunday should help us. After those four games we get CHI, IND, ATL, LAS. Hopefully we go 3-1 during that stretch to get us back to .500(13-13).



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PostPosted: 07/15/17 7:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Also, the injuries to Griner, Delle Donne & T. Hill has now opened the door for that #4 seed. Hill might be out for the season, Griner is out 3-4 weeks & Delle Donne will be evaluated today. Sun should have that #3 seed locked up.



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PostPosted: 07/15/17 10:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

To have a realistic shot at #4 we've got to be better than 13-13. Honestly after last night I can't look too far ahead anymore. Watching the implosion of players (Sugar, Piph) is for me at the point where now I'm just at the one game at a time approach. We had two double-doubles last night and lost to a 5-12 team by ten points at home.

What's really bothersome from where I sit is coming into the season our posts looked deep and we had depth at PG. Now we head into next season needing a post player and we're uncertain about how Boyd might return from a severe injury, let alone that we haven't resolved PG play in general at the halfway point. So do we draft rim protection, SF depth or combo guard help to aid our non-ball movement and lack of pace? I would have laughed at the thought of wanting someone like Lexie Brown before the season started (not because she isn't good but compared to our other needs). Now Lexie Brown would suddenly look like someone who could really help, if not send Rodgers to the bench. Geez.



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PostPosted: 07/15/17 10:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Also, how much of this is lack of ability to compartmentalize on the part of Sugar and Piph? If Z gets a T or has a bad game she shakes it off and keeps playing. Poor performances by Sugar and Piph seem to snowball. And for Piph, that's been true in the past too, it seems. Sugar last night was really unsettling. To me, it's evident that Sugar has worked on off-the-dribble stuff outside of games. She tries it enough that it means she's worked on it. Spoon talked her up early on as being on the verge of a breakout. And I'd bet the shots that were bricks last night, runners off the backboard only, etc. are going down in practice. But I think the poor performances are in her head now and seeping into her play. I could be wrong but that's what I see.

This is where having Wright might have helped. Wright seemed to know when to be fiery and when to settle people down. The poise that we need from our backcourt players, it just isn't there. And it's beyond just the physical shooting percentages.



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PostPosted: 07/15/17 10:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
We had two double-doubles last night and lost to a 5-12 team by ten points at home.


Well, that 5-12 team is the hottest in the league with 3 wins in a row including one over the Lynx. The Slooty switch has been flipped, and the rest if the team is feeding off her energy.

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I would have laughed at the thought of wanting someone like Lexie Brown before the season started (not because she isn't good but compared to our other needs). Now Lexie Brown would suddenly look like someone who could really help, if not send Rodgers to the bench. Geez.


Shouldn't have to do any sort of tanking to get her, unless she has like a first team All American senior year. Hard to see her immediately changing the fortunes of the Liberty. People have a tendency to expect too much out of rookies.



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PostPosted: 07/15/17 10:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
We had two double-doubles last night and lost to a 5-12 team by ten points at home.


Well, that 5-12 team is the hottest in the league with 3 wins in a row including one over the Lynx. The Slooty switch has been flipped, and the rest if the team is feeding off her energy.

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I would have laughed at the thought of wanting someone like Lexie Brown before the season started (not because she isn't good but compared to our other needs). Now Lexie Brown would suddenly look like someone who could really help, if not send Rodgers to the bench. Geez.


Shouldn't have to do any sort of tanking to get her, unless she has like a first team All American senior year. Hard to see her immediately changing the fortunes of the Liberty. People have a tendency to expect too much out of rookies.


NY kept that team to 4 FT attempts, outrebounded them by 15 and held them to low 40s from the field for most of the game. If they shoot 50% from 3 and score 90 points ok. But to shoot 35% against a below average defensive team that yielded us good looks and FTs all night, NY beat themselves plain and simple.

The Brown reference indicates how badly the Libs need speed and pace on offense. Even if it's for 20 minutes a night it would be invaluable. Look at how Sykes injects energy into Atlanta with her dynamic play.



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PostPosted: 07/15/17 11:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I have no idea what the solution is for a team-wide shooting slump. You get the feeling that if they brought in some other players, this system or atmosphere would cause them to shoot badly too. Management has to work things out internally. This is why they get paid the big bucks. Sports are so momentum-driven. Look at baseball. Coming into the season, the Yankees' bullpen was the strongest part of their team on paper. Right now, it's a disaster from top to bottom. Similarly, the Liberty looked deep in the post and at 2-guard. Now, they look thin everywhere. The game thread is full of trade proposals. I don't think you can trade your way out of this mess. It's midyear of a short season. Whoever comes in will have to learn new systems and become acclimated to new teammates. Off the court, they'd be adjusting to an unfamiliar city. Then, on top of that, you're going to ask the player to score lots of points and be your savior? Not likely to happen.

Also, I don't want to win a lot of games based on other teams missing their injured stars. It would be a mirage. Do we want to move up the standings only to get crushed in the playoffs? No, thanks. It's fine if the team actually does get better. Otherwise, I'd prefer to drink Tanqueray while we tank away. Wink



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PostPosted: 07/15/17 12:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
I have no idea what the solution is for a team-wide shooting slump. You get the feeling that if they brought in some other players, this system or atmosphere would cause them to shoot badly too. Management has to work things out internally. This is why they get paid the big bucks. Sports are so momentum-driven. Look at baseball. Coming into the season, the Yankees' bullpen was the strongest part of their team on paper. Right now, it's a disaster from top to bottom. Similarly, the Liberty looked deep in the post and at 2-guard. Now, they look thin everywhere. The game thread is full of trade proposals. I don't think you can trade your way out of this mess. It's midyear of a short season. Whoever comes in will have to learn new systems and become acclimated to new teammates. Off the court, they'd be adjusting to an unfamiliar city. Then, on top of that, you're going to ask the player to score lots of points and be your savior? Not likely to happen.

Also, I don't want to win a lot of games based on other teams missing their injured stars. It would be a mirage. Do we want to move up the standings only to get crushed in the playoffs? No, thanks. It's fine if the team actually does get better. Otherwise, I'd prefer to drink Tanqueray while we tank away. Wink


Yeah pretty disappointing all around. I'd only be in favor of a trade that helps beyond this year. And I don't think breaking up the backcourt right now will lead to anything more than disarray. Keeping in mind that the players from NY...Piph, Kia and Tina...have associations with each other beyond this season's Liberty. As fragile as the chemistry may now appear, I don't think breaking it up helps.

The only trade I'm in favor of is one that brings back a rim protector without giving up a ton. If that's not available then you make moves in the offseason. I don't know what trades will be available though. There aren't many players here doing wonders for their value. Fixes might have to come through a combo of the draft and free agency. And hopefully a solid recovery by Boyd.



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PostPosted: 07/15/17 1:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Well, in the faint glimmers of hope category, we had this a week ago:

LFO wrote:
Shoni looked fantastic. Slimmer than i ever remember her. Great that she came to the game. Players loved seeing her.


Given that Laimbeer has been critical of Shoni in the past, that was a notable burst of enthusiasm. Maybe she comes back ready to contribute next season. Shoni definitely has the offensive skills. It's just a question of whether she can play serviceable defense.



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PostPosted: 07/15/17 2:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shooting issues, both from the field and the line, are the kind of thing that should be addressed in practice. That's on the coaching staff. Maybe it's time for a change there. Some fresh blood.



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