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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 09/25/16 10:48 am    ::: New York Liberty 2017 Reply Reply with quote

Was hoping we wouldn't need this so soon but have at it. As I said in the 2016 thread, I think a Karima Christmas type of player could help NY.



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PostPosted: 09/25/16 12:37 pm    ::: Re: New York Liberty 2017 Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Was hoping we wouldn't need this so soon but have at it. As I said in the 2016 thread, I think a Karima Christmas type of player could help NY.


THREE IS THE MAGIC NUMBER...in my opinion we relied too much on a washed up Cash and defensive 2 guards.

Christmas is a very good idea...I think either thru trade or Free agency the team needs to sign a 3 the fact that Allen was not used AT ALL last night confirms that she's not defensively ready to step up and be the starting 3

Can't kid ourselves one more second that we can plug and play wright and or zellous (even if we keep both of them.) at 3 and have that be a long term soloution. We ignored 3 last year in fact kidded ourselves so bad about 2s at the 3 we waived cash for 3 games for cap purposes. I think in the end, the constant reminders that this team was vaurnable to the wheel for the open 3...time in and time out someone caught chasing to where even lower level players were putting up big time numbers from 3 point land tells you you need an effective 3 more than any type of Zeke blockbuster for a second star (Prince 1 with Rodgers at 2 I think solves that issue)

Fortunately I think this will be a robust trade market...poor draft and lots of teams looking to move up I think will mean there will be deals.

Biggest FA is Rodgers, a restricted which means it's either sign to max or trade in reality (You can decline a match but that's normally a bad idea especially for someone developing as much as Sugar)...Would NOT trade unless it's a blockbuster for a 3 or someone HUGE and I don't see B happening unless there's a holdout (Only one I see is Lavander and we already are set at center even if we trade one of them to sure up 3) Basically unless it's something insane that happens (like one of the top 5 players in the league holds out for an exclusive trade) or A. Thomas or Bonner level 3s I keep Rodgers on this club...Period

Which means what to do with Wright, Boyd and Zellous.

I'd keep Boyd...I believe in NEVER giving up on a player entering year 3...she showed a lot at the end of the regular season...We'll see what she does this off season. I think Boyd can be a big part of this team and it's Silly to throw her under the bus, she gets steals and plays good aggressive defense...she improves offensively she could be an X factor off the bench, you don't dump that for Danielle Robinson coming off massive surgery, that's losing Knick old names over making youth INTO names mentality...that's as stern as ill say it.

Now wright or Zellous: Between the cap and keeping Rogers I'd try to move one of those 2...not sure Wright may be a UFA and that makes it a fete acompli but if not I['d try to move her and make Prince the 1...I don't think putting Rodgers to the bench is the right move.

The good news is we don't need much...I think our youth will develop and with major injury woes all year we still won 21 games...that's a lot...But we need a durable 3 to play our defense...that's priority 1 and that's what Bernert and Co need to look at.



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PostPosted: 09/25/16 12:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I agree on Christmas -- The thought crossed my mind as I watched her destroy us a couple of weeks ago. Laughing Don't know about her contract status. As a RFA, she had to get at least two years from Tulsa/Dallas, which would end this season. Christmas chose to sign with Tulsa for a second stint after they traded her, so she seemingly liked that organization. Not sure if the move to Dallas changed anything.

But before we throw out the baby with the bath water, here are the Liberty regular season stats with a conversion to 30 mpg so that we can compare relative performance. Obviously, there is no guarantee that projection of small samples can work out in reality, but it's something to think about. Overall, the Liberty bench players performed pretty well:



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PostPosted: 09/25/16 12:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think it's also important to look at Boyd's season as two halves -- the first 14 games versus the second 19. If you take her second 19 games and project that out to 30 minutes (from 23), then you get 10 ppg and 5.6 assists on an ATO of 2.0. That's pretty darn good, folks. And then we know how she can pressure the ball on the defensive end. Brittany's challenge is finding that emotional middle ground. If she's too controlled like she was at the beginning of the season, then she isn't productive. On the other hand, if she plays with too much emotion, then she's mistake prone. Will she ever find that emotional balance on a consistent level? Given that she seems to really care, I'm betting "yes".



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PostPosted: 09/25/16 1:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
I agree on Christmas -- The thought crossed my mind as I watched her destroy us a couple of weeks ago. Laughing Don't know about her contract status. As a RFA, she had to get at least two years from Tulsa/Dallas, which would end this season. Christmas chose to sign with Tulsa for a second stint after they traded her, so she seemingly liked that organization. Not sure if the move to Dallas changed anything.

But before we throw out the baby with the bath water, here are the Liberty regular season stats with a conversion to 30 mpg so that we can compare relative performance. Obviously, there is no guarantee that projection of small samples can work out in reality, but it's something to think about. Overall, the Liberty bench players performed pretty well:



Exactly why I say while moves need to be made...they need to be calculated. This is a good bench with good supporting players...with Prince returning full strength and already has shown signs of the old Prince in the last 2 games so we'll see how she goes.

3 needs to be above anyone else. Christmas is a good idea as I think Dallas' plans are for Ariel Powers which if they solve their knucklehead problem can be a very good part to a future contender. Dunno who they'd want in return...they need a center and give up the Cambage pipe dream but I'm not sure I give em Swords for Christmas (not even on New Years or Valentines day)

I've mentioned Clark for Swords, yes that's a big trade but in the Seattle trade I explained why that may work for both teams and well Seattle needs a true center as much as we need a true 3...I'm more leery of O hea...but could be a good stopgap IF you think you can develop Allen defensively...that said with Austrailia's NT issues I'd rather not have the potential headache in the future of having both horses at 3 from a country known to be flighty in making it's NT players available. That said it's a good cheaper alternative

I think our tradable players with value would be wright and Swords (especially with her hot finish to the season) but not without GOOD return

As a RFA Rodgers will be talked about...but we better get GOOD ROI...more than just Christmas or Clark IMHO



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PostPosted: 09/25/16 3:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Happycappie25 wrote:

I've mentioned Clark for Swords, yes that's a big trade but in the Seattle trade I explained why that may work for both teams and well Seattle needs a true center as much as we need a true 3...


This looks like a pretty good match to me. I really like both these players and think both would do really well in that swap. I think Swords has quite a bit of value in the moment (wouldn't Indiana or Dallas or SAS like to have her as well?) so trader Bill can get busy and see what he can get.

I value T more than you. She's a great support player, just not a starter anymore. She's also probably not going to play more than a couple of more years at the most, so I doubt she has much trade value. Z also brings fantastic energy off the bench but probably has trade value so for the right price, maybe. Her lack of an outside shot is a detriment in certain situations. It's a bit hard to keep 4 SG, but with LFO's liking for 'lead guards' maybe Prince starts at the PG.

As you say, it's hard to see Sugar going anywhere. I'm not that hot on Boyd, but she has actually been better than I thought she would be and agree that it's worth giving her another year/another look unless something a whole lot better pops up.

Bulgak is gone so with the Swin spot that opens up a couple of spots - one draft pick and one FA? Or a blockbuster type trade. Leaves options.



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PostPosted: 09/25/16 4:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Storm are not giving up Clark for Swords and i wouldnt want them too.



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PostPosted: 09/25/16 4:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Happy knows Swords isn't likely to be a championship starting center. Does that mean he's upgrading Stokes or Zahui?

I'd love to see Zahui in SEA (if I can't have her in MIN). No real competition for her. Loyd is her buddy from the draft, so there's some chemistry there. I think it might work.



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PostPosted: 09/25/16 4:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Regarding the Wright discussion, the problem with moving her and/or altering the PG position is that the Libs haven't proven they can even come close to winning consistently without Wright running the offense and playing D. I think Piph might be good at it but you're looking at a dilemma on the defensive end in that your primary on-ball defender isn't going to be as good as Wright. I think the idea might be good, but that would necessitate a look that would still be different from a Laimbeer team. To get to the look of a Laimbeer team they have to outsize the opposition in a number of positions. And have top on-ball defense at the point of attack. Playing Piph at the point ensures neither of those things.

I wouldn't be shocked to see a blockbuster three for one that nets another top player. How many quality bench players can you keep with regard to the salary cap anyway? We have several whose contracts will increase in a few years, at the same time.

They do have some personnel to make things happen if that's their intention.



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PostPosted: 09/25/16 8:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:

I wouldn't be shocked to see a blockbuster three for one that nets another top player. How many quality bench players can you keep with regard to the salary cap anyway? We have several whose contracts will increase in a few years, at the same time.

They do have some personnel to make things happen if that's their intention.


Who do you have in mind? This league only has 12 teams and 144 players. We can go through each scenario one by one in a realistic amount of time. In operations management, it's called the "brute force" method. Smile As I said on the other thread, unless there's a disgruntled player who is going to demand a trade, I don't see any stars being moved. Has anyone heard any vaguely realistic rumors?

Or maybe the Liberty should just develop their own players like other teams. Laimbeer is going into his fifth season. Last I looked, developing players is part of the job description.


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PostPosted: 09/25/16 8:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This is just me thinking out loud and feeling a little radical due to disappointment with how things ended.

Swords and Wright to SA for Robinson

SA gets a big and a vet leader to mentor their new fiery #1 lottery pick, NY gets a veteran PG

Rodgers to Conn for A. Thomas

Conn gets a better shooter than anyone they have on the team (and might decide to trade Bentley for another post to open up minutes for Banham behind Rodgers) and trading A. Thomas opens up minutes for Tuck at the 3, NY gets a starting SF, who seems like a nice fit between Prince and Charles on both ends of the floor

Pray Allen and Schimmel come back prepared for serious minutes as gunners off the bench.

Cross finger that Zahui B progresses so she can start at center and also add some outside shooting to a starting line up that will need it.

Bring back Bulgak hope she is ready to be a 10 to 15 minute a night back up stretch PF

D-Rob/Boyd
Prince/Zellous/Schimmel
A. Thomas/Allen
Charles/Bulgak
Zahui B./Stokes

FA or early 2nd round pick for 5th post

My only problem with this is I really like Rodgers but I'm feeling a need to try and go further, and while I hope Prince and Rodgers could work as a starting back-court Princes big contract does make me a little nervous for Rodgers even with how great she was this season.


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PostPosted: 09/25/16 8:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Everyone keeps trading Swords. Is she even under contract for next year?


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PostPosted: 09/25/16 10:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Everyone keeps trading Swords. Is she even under contract for next year?


Swords and Wright could both be free agents we don't really know how long either signed for, two years seems very possible for both, but who knows?

I like everyone on the team, decent and 6' 6" will always be a commodity.


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PostPosted: 09/25/16 10:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Swords and Zellous were signed before this season to this kind of verbage from Thomas.

Quote:
“Shavonte Zellous is a versatile wing player who fits our defensive-minded culture. Carolyn Swords returns to the Liberty after having played a critical role in the team’s success last year. Both players are outstanding citizens and teammates, and are committed to the positive community efforts that help define our franchise. I enthusiastically welcome them both for our 20th season.”


That sounds like two-year level enthusiasm for both.



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 12:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

T Wright is going to retire before she lets herself get traded to another team that isnt a contender



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 2:33 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Why would seattle give up a smart consistent 25 minutes role player for a inconsistent 17 min backup center ? Clark has her limitations but she's still more valuable to seattle than Swords.Alysha is also a team leader on and off the court.


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PostPosted: 09/26/16 3:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The more realistic option.

Re-sign Sugar.
Start Prince and Rodgers.
Bring back Bulgak.
We currently do not have a 1st round pick.
Schimmel and 2nd round pick fight for last spot.

Prince/Boyd
Rodgers/Wright/Schimmel
Zellous/Allen
Charles/Stokes/Bulgak
Swords/Zahui B.

I really like this team. I really enjoy rooting for this team.

We could move forward on internal growth specifically Stokes, Zahui B., Boyd, Allen, Schimmel and Bulgak, can all be better than last year, and Prince can be heathy again that will keep us in the mix. I'm just not sure this is enough to be better than a top 4 team, and I'm not sure we can jump ahead of the teams above us.


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PostPosted: 09/26/16 5:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

As much as I agree with that line-up, J-Spoon, I see Laimbeer making some kind of move this offseason. I think there will be a small change to our roster in 2017.



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 5:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
The more realistic option.

Re-sign Sugar.
Start Prince and Rodgers.
Bring back Bulgak.
We currently do not have a 1st round pick.
Schimmel and 2nd round pick fight for last spot.

Prince/Boyd
Rodgers/Wright/Schimmel
Zellous/Allen
Charles/Stokes/Bulgak
Swords/Zahui B.

I really like this team. I really enjoy rooting for this team.

We could move forward on internal growth specifically Stokes, Zahui B., Boyd, Allen, Schimmel and Bulgak, can all be better than last year, and Prince can be heathy again that will keep us in the mix. I'm just not sure this is enough to be better than a top 4 team, and I'm not sure we can jump ahead of the teams above us.


This.....NY should stand pat with the exception of making one or two minor moves.When healthy,E.Pince will give you 15p/3r/3a/2s/44%/36%/88%.The one adjustment I'd make to your rotation is at SF.I would start Allen over zellous.Rebecca gives you more size and better 3pt shooting than Zellous(56% >19%).I would also call connecticut and offer them Schimmel/Swords for Henry.Plan B:Sign Langhorne.


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PostPosted: 09/26/16 9:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shavonte Zellous? She'll be 31 next year, and in her last two seasons she is 12 for 55 from three-point distance. This is not what the Liberty need from the small forward position.

If you're going to use Boyd in the rotation, you have one player who cannot shoot threes. Putting her and Zellous on the floor at the same time means that Tina Charles will be double-teamed, maybe triple-teamed, every time she touches the ball.

Sooner or later you have to make outside shots – and that's not what Zellous does.



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 10:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:

Bring back Bulgak.


Bulgak has no ties to any WNBA team, including the Liberty. She is an UFA.
The Liberty knows what she has to offer more than any other team, but they cut her.
My guess she'll be forgotten by most by the time January and the new season begins.



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 12:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:

Bring back Bulgak.


Bulgak has no ties to any WNBA team, including the Liberty. She is an UFA.
The Liberty knows what she has to offer more than any other team, but they cut her.
My guess she'll be forgotten by most by the time January and the new season begins.


Which is why I think it will be pretty easy for NY to bring her back to training camp. We don't have a first round pick, she had some good moments, spent almost a whole season with the coaches and the system, and will most likely have some overseas experience under her belt, all of which leads me to believe she'll have an advantage on any 2nd round picks or first time camp signees. I wouldn't be too surprised if when they waived her NY basic said there would be a camp contract waiting for you next year if you want it.


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PostPosted: 09/26/16 1:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I've never seen any evidence that Bulgak can play at this level. There's a difference between being available and being a WNBA contributor.

I could be wrong, of course but relying on Adit Bulgak to save your team at this point seems a lot like relying on the tooth fairy to put a $100 bill under your pillow when you go in to have a crown replaced.



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 1:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm actually projecting Bulgak as the 12th spot 5th post, and yes I think she has potential. And I think she'll have a leg up on anyone else applying for that position. Growth is possible, this season we saw a few player who people didn't think could make it, make it and thrive.


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PostPosted: 09/26/16 2:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Storm need to core Langhorne and then offer her for Swords.
A post rotation of Charles, Stokes and Langhorne is pretty good.



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 2:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
I've never seen any evidence that Bulgak can play at this level. There's a difference between being available and being a WNBA contributor.

I could be wrong, of course but relying on Adit Bulgak to save your team at this point seems a lot like relying on the tooth fairy to put a $100 bill under your pillow when you go in to have a crown replaced.


My reading skills must be deteriorating. I didn't see anyone here expecting Adit Bulgak to "save" our team.

Did someone propose that we could trade Tina Charles because Adit Bulgak would give us 21.5 points and 9.9 rebounds per game in 2017? I guess I must have missed that. Smile



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 5:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Regarding the Libs' 3 point shooting, if Piph and Rodgers wind up playing together and Charles continues to improve from the arc, that part of it will be fine. In Minnesota's starting 5, only Maya Moore is a major 3 point threat and it didn't impede them. Z is what she is, a decent mid-range shooter and penetrator. But if Boyd could improve her mid-range shot to where it's consistent (not saying that's going to happen) she'd be just fine. She wouldn't need to shoot from 3 with her speed and quickness if her mid-range game was in the Lindsay Whalen neighborhood. Again, not saying she will improve in that area. Just saying I don't think 3 point shooting is the Libs' biggest issue by any stretch.

I am far more interested in seeing how they upgrade their size so as to create more mismatches in their favor. Could you win with a lineup of Piph, Rodgers, Zellous/Allen, Charles and Swords/Stokes? I think that maybe you can. But I think that's also going to represent a major, major identity change for a team that honestly didn't do a whole lot of winning when Wright and Cash were out of the starting lineup the last two years. Obviously Cash skill-wise is easily replaced. But she brought something to the team that wouldn't be measured in stats alone.

I've flip-flopped on this a lot and I admit it. For a time I thought the above starting 5 could be close to championship caliber. Talent-wise it's pretty darn good, especially with the Libs' bench strength. But I'm not sure how I feel about the size, and the D at the point of attack. A lot of the time on Saturday Phoenix got off shots over our outstretched hands because we didn't have the length to contest some of their shooters. Luckily, two of the league's matchup nightmares (Taylor and Catch) are retiring.

That being said, I am still going to be interested to see what transpires moving forward. I'm not too sold that the Libs are going to stand by and allow themselves to be outsized at multiple positions on defense. When you look at how much missing Stokes hurt the Libs defensively, this is the first area you look at. I think they will be vested in trying to make sure that the team defense isn't so keyed by two players.

Is Alba Torrens still Connecticut property? If not I would personally like to fly to Spain (preferably on the Liberty organization's dime...my persuasion skills are really good) and sell her on the benefits of coming to the WNBA and NYC. I think she'd be great as a player who supports the other scorers rather than one who you ask to be THE scorer. She'd be a 6'3" small forward, which would instantly give the Libs hugely advantageous matchups on the offensive end.

I know it isn't going to happen. But hey, a guy can dream.



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 7:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I believe Torrens is still CT property, but more importantly, she doesn't seem that excited about coming over. The last interview I read, it was on the "yeah, probably someday" level of interest.

I think Allen is going to be good after a little more experience. If you want to buy her another year, how about bringing in a veteran like Currie? Mo looks like she still has a little gas in the tank. She might be a UFA so it wouldn't cost anything, and I know Laimbeer liked her a lot in college.

As far as a big PG goes, I can't think of anyone off the top of my head. I always liked Chelsea Gray, but I doubt you could pry her away from LA. Two winters ago I liked Xargay, but obviously she's taken. Sydney Wiese is available in the draft, but I doubt she'll fall out of the first round. Also, she's not really known for her defense. Shacobia Barbee is a solidly built 5-10 Tanisha Wright-ish guard. Maybe we get very, very, very lucky and she surprises us. Smile


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PostPosted: 09/26/16 7:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

As discussed elsewhere, if Camille Little is a UFA, the Libs should offer her whatever they can to bring her in. She would be a great addition to the team.



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 7:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm not sure Laimbeer would sign any bigs smaller than Tina at this point. I don't think they ever want her playing C. And I like Little quite a bit. But I think the priority is developing Stokes and Zahui rather than giving some of their minutes to a vet who might not fit the prototype of what they want.



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 7:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
I believe Torrens is still CT property, but more importantly, she doesn't seem that excited about coming over. The last interview I read, it was on the "yeah, probably someday" level of interest.

I think Allen is going to be good after a little more experience. If you want to buy her another year, how about bringing in a veteran like Currie? Mo looks like she still has a little gas in the tank. She might be a UFA so it wouldn't cost anything, and I know Laimbeer liked her a lot in college.

As far as a big PG goes, I can't think of anyone off the top of my head. I always liked Chelsea Gray, but I doubt you could pry her away from LA. Two winters ago I liked Xargay, but obviously she's taken. Sydney Wiese is available in the draft, but I doubt she'll fall out of the first round. Also, she's not really known for her defense. Shacobia Barbee is a solidly built 5-10 Tanisha Wright-ish guard. Maybe we get very, very, very lucky and she surprises us. Smile


Man, I hate Currie. Very Happy But she could be useful and at this point probably wouldn't mind playing a limited role.



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 7:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Is Big Bill desperate enough to make a K.Stokes for O.Sims trade ?


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PostPosted: 09/26/16 7:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Liberty could always go after one of the Mystics four PGs. Is Mitchell available. Would love for her to come back to NY!



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 8:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I'm not sure Laimbeer would sign any bigs smaller than Tina at this point. I don't think they ever want her playing C. And I like Little quite a bit. But I think the priority is developing Stokes and Zahui rather than giving some of their minutes to a vet who might not fit the prototype of what they want.


Not sure how Camille doesn't 'fit'. She replaces(and is an improvement on) Swin as a savvy vet who plays hard and can play some SF when you want to go big, as well as backing up Tina at PF. She also defends (better than Tina in fact) and has an outside shot. I think Swords and Stokes continue to play the C and Zahui, who is definitely still a project at this point, continues to get some garbage minutes. She is the worst defensively of these posts and until that improves, she won't be in the main rotation (JMO). Even slower posts seem to go right around her. On the negative side, Little's numbers were down this year so not sure if that means she's on the downhill side of her career or if it is just a reflection of how she was used. So I guess it depends on what your choices are in FA but she looks pretty good to me and it would mean you don't have to give away an asset to get her. (unless you consider Bulgak an asset).



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 8:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
The Liberty could always go after one of the Mystics four PGs. Is Mitchell available. Would love for her to come back to NY!


I love FLB, but Bill likes 'em big and she ain't that. After the way he used her, if I were her, NY would not be at the top of my list of desired destinations.



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 8:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Is Big Bill desperate enough to make a K.Stokes for O.Sims trade ?


no.



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 8:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Is Big Bill desperate enough to make a K.Stokes for O.Sims trade ?


Sims is so not an Evil Bill type guard



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 8:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I'm not sure Laimbeer would sign any bigs smaller than Tina at this point. I don't think they ever want her playing C. And I like Little quite a bit. But I think the priority is developing Stokes and Zahui rather than giving some of their minutes to a vet who might not fit the prototype of what they want.


Not sure how Camille doesn't 'fit'. She replaces(and is an improvement on) Swin as a savvy vet who plays hard and can play some SF when you want to go big, as well as backing up Tina at PF. She also defends (better than Tina in fact) and has an outside shot. I think Swords and Stokes continue to play the C and Zahui, who is definitely still a project at this point, continues to get some garbage minutes. She is the worst defensively of these posts and until that improves, she won't be in the main rotation (JMO). Even slower posts seem to go right around her. On the negative side, Little's numbers were down this year so not sure if that means she's on the downhill side of her career or if it is just a reflection of how she was used. So I guess it depends on what your choices are in FA but she looks pretty good to me and it would mean you don't have to give away an asset to get her. (unless you consider Bulgak an asset).


I don't see Little as an effective SF. If I'm wrong and she could handle it I would welcome her. But if she can't handle it that limits her to the 4 spot. A spot where she can defend well but a spot where Tina would have to play center if they are both on the floor in post positions. If she's only a 4, there's no way the Liberty are going to have Tina be the primary rim defender. I think it's been established they don't want her in a Center's role at all. On the offensive end, Little's FG numbers have been in a multi-year decline, in offenses much better oriented to her style of play than NY would be.

I didn't see Zahui's defensive play as a continual struggle. It was definitely a struggle at times, with the beginning of the season being horrible and the end of the season featuring her struggling against players she was forced to match up to in Kiah's absence. I don't think that means she can't improve. There will probably be an expectation that she work out in a certain manner to get stronger and leaner. Footwork will be a project I'm sure as will improving her hands and post moves. But she's very young. I wouldn't pencil her in as a poor defender forever. She's got to get on the floor to improve.



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 8:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Is Big Bill desperate enough to make a K.Stokes for O.Sims trade ?


I thought the post-Olympic break did even more to demonstrate Stokes' value in how poor the Libs often were defensively in her absence.



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 9:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
zune69 wrote:
Is Big Bill desperate enough to make a K.Stokes for O.Sims trade ?


I thought the post-Olympic break did even more to demonstrate Stokes' value in how poor the Libs often were defensively in her absence.


Absolutely. I don't think Stokes was quite as good defensively in 2016 as she was in 2015. Nevertheless, the post-Olympic break vividly demonstrated how much she was missed. And we'll always wonder how the recent playoff game against Phoenix might have been different if we'd had 25 or 30 minutes from a fully healthy Stokes.



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 9:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
toad455 wrote:
The Liberty could always go after one of the Mystics four PGs. Is Mitchell available. Would love for her to come back to NY!


I love FLB, but Bill likes 'em big and she ain't that. After the way he used her, if I were her, NY would not be at the top of my list of desired destinations.


No way that Bill Laimbeer will bring back Leilani Mitchell. Whatever any of us think of her, Laimbeer made it obvious that he wasn't a great fan.



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 9:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
zune69 wrote:
Is Big Bill desperate enough to make a K.Stokes for O.Sims trade ?


Sims is so not an Evil Bill type guard


He seemed to be hoping Sims would drop to #4 when he was scouting talent in 2014, but Sims hype was strong back then and maybe he's not so high on her now.



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 10:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PG was a heavier need in 2014. And at draft time, he was probably uncertain about what role Cruz could fill as well.



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 11:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If the Liberty make any trades, they're likely to send a guard away -- a 2 guard. They have too many. There's no way they trade a post player for a guard unless it's some kind of lopsided deal in their favor. Smile

As for Sims, I don't think you can simply judge her or any Dallas player based on what's been happening there. Whatever you call Fred's systems on either end of the court, they're a mess. Sims was known as a good all-around player in college. I think she can get back to being that person. Now, whether there's a good trade available with NY is another question. I don't see a match.


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PostPosted: 09/27/16 12:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
If the Liberty make any trades, they're likely to send a guard away -- a 2 guard. They have too many. There's no way they trade a post player for a guard unless it's some kind of lopsided deal in their favor. Smile

As for Sims, I don't think you can simply judge her or any Dallas player based on what's been happening there. Whatever you call Fred's systems on either end of the court, they're a mess. Sims was known as a good all-around player in college. I think she can get back to being that person. Now, whether there's a good trade available with NY is another question. I don't see a match.


It may be that the Liberty won't make any big trades in this offseason. But if there is a big trade, it has to include Sugar Rodgers. I'm not advocating getting rid of Rodgers. But no other team is going to give up a significant player for Epiphanny Prince, Tanisha Wright, or Shavonte Zellous. All three are valuable players, but for different reasons their trade value can't be all that high.



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 10:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
root_thing wrote:
If the Liberty make any trades, they're likely to send a guard away -- a 2 guard. They have too many. There's no way they trade a post player for a guard unless it's some kind of lopsided deal in their favor. Smile

As for Sims, I don't think you can simply judge her or any Dallas player based on what's been happening there. Whatever you call Fred's systems on either end of the court, they're a mess. Sims was known as a good all-around player in college. I think she can get back to being that person. Now, whether there's a good trade available with NY is another question. I don't see a match.


It may be that the Liberty won't make any big trades in this offseason. But if there is a big trade, it has to include Sugar Rodgers. I'm not advocating getting rid of Rodgers. But no other team is going to give up a significant player for Epiphanny Prince, Tanisha Wright, or Shavonte Zellous. All three are valuable players, but for different reasons their trade value can't be all that high.


Zellous still has value. It doesn't have to be a "big" trade. If you can exchange her for a similar level player -- quality backup, serviceable starter -- at 1, 3 or even 4/5, then it's worth considering. Why be too deep at one position and thin in other places? Teams are usually better off with good roster balance.


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PostPosted: 09/27/16 11:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
root_thing wrote:
If the Liberty make any trades, they're likely to send a guard away -- a 2 guard. They have too many. There's no way they trade a post player for a guard unless it's some kind of lopsided deal in their favor. Smile

As for Sims, I don't think you can simply judge her or any Dallas player based on what's been happening there. Whatever you call Fred's systems on either end of the court, they're a mess. Sims was known as a good all-around player in college. I think she can get back to being that person. Now, whether there's a good trade available with NY is another question. I don't see a match.


It may be that the Liberty won't make any big trades in this offseason. But if there is a big trade, it has to include Sugar Rodgers. I'm not advocating getting rid of Rodgers. But no other team is going to give up a significant player for Epiphanny Prince, Tanisha Wright, or Shavonte Zellous. All three are valuable players, but for different reasons their trade value can't be all that high.


Zellous still has value. It doesn't have to be a "big" trade. If you can exchange her for a similar level player -- quality backup, serviceable starter -- at 1, 3 or even 4/5, then it's worth considering. Why be too deep at one position and thin in other places? Teams are usually better off with good roster balance.

Unless they're going to trust Allen or Zellous to play heavy minutes as a 3, something as simple as Zellous straight up for Mo Currie probably makes New York better. Somebody's going to have to play small forward next season.



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 12:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
root_thing wrote:
If the Liberty make any trades, they're likely to send a guard away -- a 2 guard. They have too many. There's no way they trade a post player for a guard unless it's some kind of lopsided deal in their favor. Smile

As for Sims, I don't think you can simply judge her or any Dallas player based on what's been happening there. Whatever you call Fred's systems on either end of the court, they're a mess. Sims was known as a good all-around player in college. I think she can get back to being that person. Now, whether there's a good trade available with NY is another question. I don't see a match.


It may be that the Liberty won't make any big trades in this offseason. But if there is a big trade, it has to include Sugar Rodgers. I'm not advocating getting rid of Rodgers. But no other team is going to give up a significant player for Epiphanny Prince, Tanisha Wright, or Shavonte Zellous. All three are valuable players, but for different reasons their trade value can't be all that high.


Zellous still has value. It doesn't have to be a "big" trade. If you can exchange her for a similar level player -- quality backup, serviceable starter -- at 1, 3 or even 4/5, then it's worth considering. Why be too deep at one position and thin in other places? Teams are usually better off with good roster balance.


As I said above, I believe this team needs at least one more genuine star. I don't believe that the 2017 Liberty can win a championship with the current roster + likely improvement from younger players + a possible trade of someone like Zellous for a quality backup or a "serviceable" starter to provide more balance. . Others have disagreed and I certainly may be proven wrong. I hope I am.

If there isn't going to be what I'd consider a big trade, then, yes, it certainly would be worth considering trading Zellous for a quality backup or a serviceable starter that would give the team more roster balance.



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 12:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
root_thing wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
root_thing wrote:
If the Liberty make any trades, they're likely to send a guard away -- a 2 guard. They have too many. There's no way they trade a post player for a guard unless it's some kind of lopsided deal in their favor. Smile

As for Sims, I don't think you can simply judge her or any Dallas player based on what's been happening there. Whatever you call Fred's systems on either end of the court, they're a mess. Sims was known as a good all-around player in college. I think she can get back to being that person. Now, whether there's a good trade available with NY is another question. I don't see a match.


It may be that the Liberty won't make any big trades in this offseason. But if there is a big trade, it has to include Sugar Rodgers. I'm not advocating getting rid of Rodgers. But no other team is going to give up a significant player for Epiphanny Prince, Tanisha Wright, or Shavonte Zellous. All three are valuable players, but for different reasons their trade value can't be all that high.


Zellous still has value. It doesn't have to be a "big" trade. If you can exchange her for a similar level player -- quality backup, serviceable starter -- at 1, 3 or even 4/5, then it's worth considering. Why be too deep at one position and thin in other places? Teams are usually better off with good roster balance.

Unless they're going to trust Allen or Zellous to play heavy minutes as a 3, something as simple as Zellous straight up for Mo Currie probably makes New York better. Somebody's going to have to play small forward next season.


I doubt Zellous left the security of IND to become a trade piece for NYL after one year. Can't see it. It may also cause future FA's to be wary of NYL.



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 12:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:

I doubt Zellous left the security of IND to become a trade piece for NYL after one year. Can't see it. It may also cause future FA's to be wary of NYL.


Zellous left the security of Indiana because they couldn't afford her. The Fever basically said as much afterwards. Also, Shavonte knew that Prince's injury was one of the reasons NY wanted her. I'm sure she was aware that Piph's return could change things. She also got to see Rodgers' improvement up close and personal. No one ever signs to be traded, but circumstances change. If it looks like her playing time is going to be greatly reduced, then Zellous may very well prefer to be traded.


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