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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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 Posted: 04/13/17 7:58 pm ::: |
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| Liberty select Florida St. center Kai James at #34. thoughts?
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 04/13/17 8:01 pm ::: |
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| She won't make the team. She's a body who'll take some post minutes in the exhibition games that they will probably lose.
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root_thing
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 04/13/17 8:32 pm ::: |
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I have a question about Shoni Schimmel. I ask because it looked to me like she lost a decent amount of weight during the 2016 season. (Perhaps my impression is wrong; I don't sit right on or near the court.) And yet she still didn't get much playing time.
Discussion here focuses again and again on whether Schimmel will be in shape in 2017. My question: even if Schimmel turns up in training camp and is indeed in shape, can she play good enough defense to make the team and merit playing time? I'm wondering if she is inadequate defensively even when she is in shape.
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toad455
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| Posted: 04/13/17 9:22 pm ::: |
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so unless a trade happens, we're basically with:
PG: Prince/Boyd/Hartley
SG: Rodgers/Zellous
SF: Allen/Barbee
PF: Charles/Zahui B./Burdick
C: Vaughn/Stokes
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Shades
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 04/13/17 9:50 pm ::: |
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If no trade happens it's going to be difficult to carry 4 lead guards. I think Burdick will stick because in Kia's absence we will only have 3 posts. And Barbee will likely stick because we need another player who can play SF. So if there's no trades, carrying 4 PGs is a tall order.
Lends credence to the theory that a trade will happen.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 04/13/17 10:17 pm ::: |
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| Again, Barbee is only 5-10. She's a fairly strong 5-10, but I don't see any special leaping ability. She mostly played 2 and 1 in college. Barbee did play 3 the first time I saw her in Spain, but while she fought hard to box out, people were jumping over her. A couple of months later she was playing 1. Just saying, Barbee is not more of a SF than Zellous or Alston (who is only 5-9 but really thick). I would project Burdick at SF and Raincock-Ekunwe at PF. I say this as someone who was very happy that the Liberty drafted Barbee. However, I view her as a combo guard who primarily plays SG.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/13/17 10:26 pm ::: |
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I don't get the Lindsay Allen pick, though at least it means I can have a conversation with the Notre Dame fan at my office, and any opportunity to evangelize the women's game is a good one.
I don't get the Kai James pick at ALL. Shoulda drafted the ballgirl. At least she knows how to board against Tina. (I'm not completely talking out my ass; she did start and anchor the defense.) (Bird, if you're reading this, the ballgirl gag is meant tongue in cheek.)
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J-Spoon
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| Posted: 04/13/17 11:04 pm ::: |
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Not what I expected I'm OK with the Allen pick she is a steady reliable PG it can't hurt to have one of those, still think it is only a 50/50 she makes the team.
I'm sort of feeling the bigger version of the Liberty
Prince/Boyd/Hartley
Rodgers/Zellous
Allen/Raincock-Ekunwe
Charles/Zahui B/Burdick
Vaughn/Stokes
I also like the Schimmel variation
Prince/Boyd/Schimmel
Rodgers/Hartley
Zellous/Allen
Charles/Zahui B/Burdick or Rk-Ek
Vaughn/Stokes
the L. Allen variation
Prince/Boyd/L Allen
Rodgers/Hartley or Schimmel
Zellous/Allen
Charles/Zahui B/Burdick or Rk-Ek
Vaughn/Stokes
the Barbee or Alston variation
Prince/Boyd/Hartley or Schimmel
Rodgers/Barbee or Alsotn
Zellous/Allen
Charles/Zahui B/Burdick or Rk-Ek
Vaughn/Stokes
I think we go big.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 04/13/17 11:35 pm ::: |
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| J-Spoon wrote: |
I think we go big. |
You don't have any versions with our biggest player -- Kai James. How can you overlook her 42.4 FT% or her zero total assists for the season? These are skills that can really help our team!
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J-Spoon
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| Posted: 04/13/17 11:42 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| J-Spoon wrote: |
I think we go big. |
You don't have any versions with our biggest player -- Kai James. How can you overlook her 42.4 FT% or her zero total assists for the season? These are skills that can really help our team! |
I'm able to overlook that pick because tbh #34 had no shot no matter who it was. I guess we could have brought in Brunner to compete with Burdick and Nayo or Samuelason if we just wanted a shooter but no one at 34 was getting by the players already ahead of them, I'm not even sure Allen has that good of a chance and I like her. I gave her 50/50 but after mapping out the possible rosters I think it close to a 1 in 3 chance. She basically has to beat out the concept of going big, and even if we take the extra guard she has to get past Barbee who the team seems high on, Alston who they brought back a 2nd time maybe regretting who they cut when they cut her, and Shoni who I still think the coach might like to succeed even if it seems unlikely.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 04/14/17 12:55 am ::: |
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| J-Spoon wrote: |
| I'm able to overlook that pick because tbh #34 had no shot no matter who it was. I guess we could have brought in Brunner to compete with Burdick and Nayo or Samuelason if we just wanted a shooter but no one at 34 was getting by the players already ahead of them, I'm not even sure Allen has that good of a chance and I like her. I gave her 50/50 but after mapping out the possible rosters I think it close to a 1 in 3 chance. She basically has to beat out the concept of going big, and even if we take the extra guard she has to get past Barbee who the team seems high on, Alston who they brought back a 2nd time maybe regretting who they cut when they cut her, and Shoni who I still think the coach might like to succeed even if it seems unlikely. |
While I preferred McCall, the Allen pick at least makes logical sense. The Liberty led the WNBA in turnovers. Allen adds a second true point guard to go with Boyd. Lindsay was second in the nation with a stellar 3.57 ATO, achieved while compiling essentially the 2nd highest assists average in the nation at 7.6. That combination of volume and efficiency doesn't always come together. Allen played at an elite program and faced top competition. Reducing their TOs is crucial if the Liberty are ever going to make a serious championship run. I see Allen taking on the role that Lindsay Harding was supposed to fill -- the steady PG who calms things down whenever the team starts to throw the ball all over the place. She appears to be a better shooter than Harding, and Allen also looks like she can push the ball and create on the run -- something combo guards playing PG don't usually do well. That's enough for her to make the roster, but Allen has to prove herself quickly. It's very competitive in the backcourt. I don't think management can justify taking on any projects. Allen has two weeks to beat out the competition.
As far as the 34th pick goes, yes they're longshots. But Barbee was a 36th pick, Shae Kelley was a 35th pick, Asia Taylor was a 36th pick, and TRP was undrafted. You take a flyer on a good athlete or someone who isn't a great athlete who put up numbers. Maybe an injured player. Maybe a foreign player who can be left overseas. But to draft someone who is big and lumbering, who averaged 6.9 mpg as a senior and played behind a 6-1 center who went undrafted... well, you get the picture. It probably doesn't matter, but imagine the howling if Blaze or John Whisenant had made this pick.
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J-Spoon
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| Posted: 04/14/17 3:10 am ::: |
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I'm happy with the team and I'm not sure any trades are going to happen at this point, just playing the imagination game, if we feel good about Allen at the back up PG spot what about,
Boyd for Currie? We need a decent SF SA needs guards and might as well get Coffey as many minutes as possible at the SF spot.
Prince/Hartley/Allen
Rodgers/Zellous
Currie/Allen
Charles/Zahui B/Burdick
Vaughn/Stokes
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 04/14/17 8:17 am ::: |
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| All I can say is if Barbee isn't a SF then we need one and it's as simple as that. I was hoping her 7 rebounds per game in college translated to that. We have one wing player over 6 feet. Strength isn't her forte and she played a career high 13.3 mpg last year. I like her but we have no idea about durability. And we'd be an injury away from Zellous and whoever being the SF rotation. I wouldn't trade Boyd for Currie, but to me we have a major need. As such that 2018 first rounder needs to be in play if we get a young, highly talented small forward. Which is what we should be trying to do.
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ClayK
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| Posted: 04/14/17 9:24 am ::: |
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Though Allen and Boyd are different kinds of players, they share one key trait: They can't shoot. And neither, really, can Bria Hartley.
And Prince isn't exactly a world-beater from outside, though she's average.
It just seems to me it's hard to win when you have very limited perimeter offense, and makes it much easier to focus on keeping Tina Charles from taking over on the block.
Then again, there was nothing left at 14 except Peterson, and I don't think she fits the Laimbeer mold.
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Michelle89
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| Posted: 04/14/17 9:44 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
Though Allen and Boyd are different kinds of players, they share one key trait: They can't shoot. And neither, really, can Bria Hartley.
And Prince isn't exactly a world-beater from outside, though she's average.
It just seems to me it's hard to win when you have very limited perimeter offense, and makes it much easier to focus on keeping Tina Charles from taking over on the block.
Then again, there was nothing left at 14 except Peterson, and I don't think she fits the Laimbeer mold. |
This is exactly why they couldnt trade Sugar. With her and Rebecca Allen on the wings should create more room for Charles
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root_thing
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| Posted: 04/14/17 10:12 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
Though Allen and Boyd are different kinds of players, they share one key trait: They can't shoot. And neither, really, can Bria Hartley.
And Prince isn't exactly a world-beater from outside, though she's average.
It just seems to me it's hard to win when you have very limited perimeter offense, and makes it much easier to focus on keeping Tina Charles from taking over on the block.
Then again, there was nothing left at 14 except Peterson, and I don't think she fits the Laimbeer mold. |
Lindsay Allen doesn't shoot much, but she's 49.5% FG and 34.7% 3Pt for her career. I don't see how you can just assume that she can't shoot. Meanwhile, NY has Rodgers who was second in the league in made 3's and fifth in percentage. Rebecca Allen shot 3s at a ridiculous 56.7% clip in NY and has continued at 48.7% overseas. That's a combined 74-147 50.3%. Hartley didn't shoot well overall, but she did make 3s at a respectable 36.2% clip. Last season, New York finished 8th in made 3s and 3rd in 3Pt percentage. They need to take and make a few more, but it's not like the team is awful.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 04/14/17 10:29 am ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
Though Allen and Boyd are different kinds of players, they share one key trait: They can't shoot. And neither, really, can Bria Hartley.
And Prince isn't exactly a world-beater from outside, though she's average.
It just seems to me it's hard to win when you have very limited perimeter offense, and makes it much easier to focus on keeping Tina Charles from taking over on the block.
Then again, there was nothing left at 14 except Peterson, and I don't think she fits the Laimbeer mold. |
Lindsay Allen doesn't shoot much, but she's 49.5% FG and 34.7% 3Pt for her career. I don't see how you can just assume that she can't shoot. Meanwhile, NY has Rodgers who was second in the league in made 3's and fifth in percentage. Rebecca Allen shot 3s at a ridiculous 56.7% clip in NY and has continued at 48.7% overseas. That's a combined 74-147 50.3%. Hartley didn't shoot well overall, but she did make 3s at a respectable 36.2% clip. Last season, New York finished 8th in made 3s and 3rd in 3Pt percentage. They need to take and make a few more, but it's not like the team is awful. |
Thanks for these stats. I disagree with the view that New York will have a "very limited perimeter offense" in 2017.
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J-Spoon
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| Posted: 04/14/17 10:40 am ::: |
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If shooting is the issue we could just keep Schimmel for that purpose at the 12th spot.
Also one of Burdick or Nayo is going to end up as our bigger SF option and that can work IMO.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 04/14/17 10:48 am ::: |
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The Liberty may or may not have issues but that perimeter offense issue is a 2015 thing and kind of a 2016 thing. Rodgers and Allen are two of the best 3 point shooters in the WNBA. Piph is an ok 3 ball shooter with a solid mid-range game. Tina can shoot the 3. Hartley is around 35% from 3. Vaughn has range to 18 feet. Zahui's 3 ball shooting has been improving overseas as the season has gone on. Assuming Piph, Sugar and Allen play together, which is a safe assumption, I'm not worried about outside shooting. Other things yes. But outside shooting is hardly paramount on that list. This is a vastly different team stylistically compared to the previous two years.
My main worries are rebounding and defense. The only problem with that lineup offensively might be ball distribution but Sugar has improved her game tremendously in the last year and a half. Perhaps that's her next step.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 04/14/17 11:13 am ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
The only problem with that lineup offensively might be ball distribution but Sugar has improved her game tremendously in the last year and a half. Perhaps that's her next step. |
Or perhaps their first draft pick was intended to address that issue.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 04/14/17 11:28 am ::: |
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| Yeah but realistically how many minutes will she play? I'm talking about the predominant lineup they're going to use. Piph is your second best player. Sugar is your third. To win a title they'll be playing together a lot. A rookie PG may not even make the team and if she does she won't play much at first.
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ClayK
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| Posted: 04/14/17 12:01 pm ::: |
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The Liberty did shoot threes better than I thought, but ...
*Rodgers took almost half their threes, and it's much easier defensively to take away one perimeter threat than several.
*The player who took the second most threes was Tina Charles. And she was essentially their second-best perimeter threat because ...
*Allen only attempted 30 threes, Schimmel 16 and Prince 11, and those were the three with better percentages than Charles. Prince is decent from range, however.
*In her last three years in Australia, Allen shot 32% from three-point distance, and it's unlikely she will do better than that in a full season in the WNBA. She was 0-4 her first year in the WNBA though obviously shot really well from distance last season.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 04/14/17 12:38 pm ::: |
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Allen's 3 point percentage overseas this year is well into the 40s last I saw. Players can, and do, develop. Allen, like Rodgers, has always had a nice release and good form. And, like Rodgers, she's improved.
Prince barely played last year. Allen barely played too. So obviously the team will have more three point shooting from a variety of sources this year. Plenty of teams in the league have worse.
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