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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 1:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

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"Even if Piph was still healthy she was our No. 1 priority going into free agency," New York Liberty president Isiah Thomas said. "Before Piph was hurt, she was high on our board in terms of people we want to have play on our team. We look at it that she understands our chemistry, understands our defensive concepts. She knows [Coach Bill] Laimbeer. It's a good fit for us."


http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/14692797/new-york-liberty-sign-free-agent-shavonte-zellous



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 3:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Quote:
"Even if Piph was still healthy she was our No. 1 priority going into free agency," New York Liberty president Isiah Thomas said. "Before Piph was hurt, she was high on our board in terms of people we want to have play on our team. We look at it that she understands our chemistry, understands our defensive concepts. She knows [Coach Bill] Laimbeer. It's a good fit for us."


http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/14692797/new-york-liberty-sign-free-agent-shavonte-zellous


So what? We were talking about Zellous' thought process, not what Isiah was thinking. If Indiana wasn't capped out, Isiah could want Zellous enough to marry her and it wouldn't matter. Besides, where did I say that Prince's injury was the only reason NY was interested? Go back to page 1 of the Liberty 2016 thread where we discussed how New York's bench needed an upgrade. I also said at the time that who they ended up with would be primarily dictated by who was available rather than finding a perfect fit. If we fans could see that, I'm sure management saw it too. However, there are varying degrees of urgency. Do you not believe that NY's motivation increased after Prince's injury? And who knew at the time that Rodgers was capable of a borderline all-star season? There are multiple reasons why things occur and all of them count.


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 3:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Shades wrote:
Quote:
"Even if Piph was still healthy she was our No. 1 priority going into free agency," New York Liberty president Isiah Thomas said. "Before Piph was hurt, she was high on our board in terms of people we want to have play on our team. We look at it that she understands our chemistry, understands our defensive concepts. She knows [Coach Bill] Laimbeer. It's a good fit for us."


http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/14692797/new-york-liberty-sign-free-agent-shavonte-zellous


So what? We were talking about Zellous' thought process, not what Isiah was thinking. If Indiana wasn't capped out, Isiah could want Zellous enough to marry her and it wouldn't matter. Besides, where did I say that Prince's injury was the only reason NY was interested? Go back to page 1 of the Liberty 2016 thread where we discussed how New York's bench needed an upgrade. I also said at the time that who they ended up with would be primarily dictated by who was available rather than finding a perfect fit. If we fans could see that, I'm sure management saw it too. However, there are varying degrees of urgency. Do you not believe that NY's motivation increased after Prince's injury? And who knew at the time that Rodgers was capable of a borderline all-star season? There are multiple reasons why things occur and all of them count.


I agree with what root_thing is saying here, but for this. Do I need to explain why it's so disturbing to read these words: "If Indiana wasn't capped out, Isiah could want Zellous enough to marry her...."?



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zune69



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 4:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Question for liberty fans......if Dallas gets the #1 pick in the 2017 draft would you be willing to make any of the following trades:

Stokes for Deshields

Stokes/Allen for Sims/Christmas

Stokes for Diggins


pilight



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 5:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Stokes for Diggins


Shocked



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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 5:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Zune doesn't seem to get that NYL has enough guards.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 5:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Zune doesn't seem to get that NYL has enough guards.


Yeah, but they would still do the Diggins deal in a heartbeat



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zune69



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 5:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
zune69 wrote:
Stokes for Diggins


Shocked


As a Wings fan I would not make this trade.Sims is not a franchise player imo.I just want to know how much Stokes is worth to Liberty fans.


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 5:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Viewed on their own, I wouldn't make any of these trades. Indeed, I wouldn't trade Kiah Stokes unless it was part of a (very unlikely) major roster transformation that would bring New York a center at least as good defensively as Stokes. And there aren't so many centers who can offer that.

The success of the Liberty in 2015 and 2016 has been built in important ways on defense and rebounding. In the last part of the season and in the playoff game against Phoenix, we got a good look at what it meant for the Liberty to play without Stokes or with Stokes barely having practiced, not being 100%, and playing limited minutes. It made a huge difference. Even if we assume that Zahui B will improve defensively next season (I do), she'd have to go a long way to make up for the loss of Stokes.



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Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships. Now she is part of the Senior Management Team of UNICEF USA.
Shades



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 5:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Shades wrote:
Zune doesn't seem to get that NYL has enough guards.


Yeah, but they would still do the Diggins deal in a heartbeat


I'm sure RocNation would love that deal, but they don't own the Liberty (but maybe they should).



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 8:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Question for liberty fans......if Dallas gets the #1 pick in the 2017 draft would you be willing to make any of the following trades:

Stokes for Deshields

Stokes/Allen for Sims/Christmas

Stokes for Diggins


I really like Stokes and our defense but tbh I would consider all three.

Diggins, Deshields and Sims all still have superstar potential so you have to consider it!

I highly doubt any of those offers would be made though, and I do love a player like Stokes, who achieves success beyond many expectations due to hard work, fit and toughness. That is pretty much the old school Liberty way.


J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 12:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So if SF is the position to fix lets look at all the options

I'm not going to count SG who can play SF since we have that in Zellous and/or Wright, or players who can swing to SF like Stewart, EDD, or Ogwumike as I think they are posts

NY What we have now
Zellous/Allen

Atl
McCoughtry/Holmes
Conn
A. Thomas/Stricklen
WAS
TRP/Copper
Indy
Coleman/S. Johnson
Chi
Young/Laney
LA
Carson/?
Minny
Moore/Hampton
Seattle
Clark/O'Hea/Wright
Dallas
Christmas/Powers/Hooper
SA
Currie/Gwathmey/Montgomery
PX
Bonner/Petrovic

So when you remove players that seem very unlikely to be available, and players that are not better than what we already have the list gets short fast

top tier
A. Thomas, Christmas, Clark

other options (but are they better)
Currie, Coleman, S. Johnson, O'hea

draft possibilities to trade up for
Deshields, Walker-Kimbrough, Coffey, Scaife, Epps, Davis (not sure if a few of those would be considered big enough to be considered true SF rather than SG who can play some 3)

So Christmas seems like the best option, we would probably have to be willing to trade Rodgers for her, or Stokes, unless she is an UFA and we could tempt her with a starting spot on a team that is closer to a ship than Dallas is currently. I really like A. Thomas but unless Miller wants to go in a different direction I'm not sure we could get her, and it it would cost us Rodgers or Stokes IMO. If O'hea or S. Johnson are UFA I'd make an offer. Clark for Swords is an intersting idea, Clark for Stokes (or maybe Zahui B.) seems more like what Seattle would want.


Happycappie25



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 5:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Clark for Zahui id do in a second...see I had Swords as a higher value than zahui when I made that idea...but with age factoring in id say you could very well be right



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toad455



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 7:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I doubt Laimbeer is going to dump Zahui B. that quickly. I give her one more year in NY as his project.



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zune69



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 8:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

O'Hea/Allen > Clark/Christmas

Both are great 3pt shooters and have the defensive size/length to deal with the elite SF.Clark/Christmas are average 3pt shooters at best.Neither has the size or length to matchup with the best SF in the league.We just saw MCcoughtry destroy Clark.Bonner dropped 38 points on dallas earlier in the season.




Last edited by zune69 on 09/28/16 8:31 am; edited 1 time in total
toad455



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 8:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Laimbeer is also great for trading for unwanted players on other teams. We got Zahui B. for nothing(though tbd with Dallas' draft pick). We got Shimmel for nothing. We got Boyd in exchange for Alex Montgomery & we got Stokes in exchange for Anna Cruz(basically). Though I'd like to still have Cruz with us, Laimbeer knows how to make some kind of trades happen. A SF should be his #1 priority in free agency.

Though I doubt Seattle would want both Shimmel & KML on their team, I'd settle for Shimmel for O'Hea. Shimmel could play the back-up PG role in Seattle.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 9:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

We've heard it over and over again on Liberty broadcasts: Zahui B is la ong-term investment for NY. They apparently view her as a future starter. If you watch closely, there are essentially two Amandas -- one who uses good technique and positioning, and the other who stands upright and swats at anything that passes by like a swarm of annoying bugs. Unfortunately, the latter shows up at least 50% of the time. The issue with Zahui B is mental. She needs to focus. She needs to grow-up. If you watch the practice videos or read her tweets, Amanda is a goofball. That's fine, but she needs to learn to compartmentalize. You can be fun-loving off the court, but on the court you have to focus and be all business. That means doing things like bending your knees on defense and using footwork on offense. It takes extra effort, but it makes a huge difference.


Happycappie25



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 7:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
We've heard it over and over again on Liberty broadcasts: Zahui B is la ong-term investment for NY. They apparently view her as a future starter. If you watch closely, there are essentially two Amandas -- one who uses good technique and positioning, and the other who stands upright and swats at anything that passes by like a swarm of annoying bugs. Unfortunately, the latter shows up at least 50% of the time. The issue with Zahui B is mental. She needs to focus. She needs to grow-up. If you watch the practice videos or read her tweets, Amanda is a goofball. That's fine, but she needs to learn to compartmentalize. You can be fun-loving off the court, but on the court you have to focus and be all business. That means doing things like bending your knees on defense and using footwork on offense. It takes extra effort, but it makes a huge difference.


I agree, with wright and Z both getting on in years that's why I suggested swords...Zahui needs to be consistent, however that's done I agree, we know she could be dominant when reined in, we saw it in flashes here and we saw it at Minnesota...I'd take that gamble if it fills cash's role as I just don't see Allen ready defensively to take that mantle with nothing but defensive 2's to back her up in case she falters...next year I think does need to be THE year...Charles in prime, Prince healthy but entering 30s...Zellous and Wright (if they keep both) on the back 9, Rogers if kept (and I think it'd take TOPLINE talent for me put into a package to trade unless she demands a trade. A Thomas is the lowest player I'd want for anything involving Rogers. Clark i'd want something back draftwise as well to give up Sugar (besides she doesn't fit there)) and 4 third year players...agree we need to give someone up to fill Cash's hole...sticking with guards and allen just doesn't seem like a winner to me...too many times we got schooled that way to keep doing what doesn't work today. Things just seem perfect this year (barring injury) to make the big move if we can.

We'll see what we'll do...but the one big adjustment is at 3...something Bill ignored for way too long because of his love of Cash's leadership. And really if we go in with allen as our 3 from what I saw in the regular season off the bench and what I DIDN'T see in the playoffs...I don't trust that she can be the full time answer YET (will say if you do think she's close you CAN go older at the 3...but I'd prefer someone to be there for at least 2 years)

as for pairings I'd prefer offense defense with Allen...not 2 shooters but I wouldn't cry over Ohea she has game, even if Allen legit beats her out in camp for the starter's role. But I think a defensive 2 that can yin and yang with Allen depending on what is needed could help both immensely.

again THREE IS THE MAGIC NUMBER

Only player I'd dump is Schimmel...she can play somewhere but she doesn't fit the system...just like Mitchell didn't fit the system...It happens...it was right to take the chance but she will never develop the D bill demands IMHO



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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 7:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Happycappie25 wrote:


Only player I'd dump is Schimmel


Yes, please. *drool*



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 7:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Viewed on their own, I wouldn't make any of these trades. Indeed, I wouldn't trade Kiah Stokes unless it was part of a (very unlikely) major roster transformation that would bring New York a center at least as good defensively as Stokes. And there aren't so many centers who can offer that.

The success of the Liberty in 2015 and 2016 has been built in important ways on defense and rebounding. In the last part of the season and in the playoff game against Phoenix, we got a good look at what it meant for the Liberty to play without Stokes or with Stokes barely having practiced, not being 100%, and playing limited minutes. It made a huge difference. Even if we assume that Zahui B will improve defensively next season (I do), she'd have to go a long way to make up for the loss of Stokes.


I agree. And I still also believe Kiah has some offensive upside. Bill said she didn't really work enough on her offensive game last offseason. I would like to see what happens once she does. Maybe she will still be the same offensive player. But she can shoot better than her FT % indicates and she is one of the league's quickest bigs.

On Diggins, no I would not trade Stokes for Diggins, just as I am sure Dallas would not trade Diggins for Stokes. It would necessitate a complete team transformation on the part of both teams. One that I do not think would work for either team. We saw how substandard the Libs were on defense without Kiah and Wright. While losing Wright was obviously a factor as well, it clearly demonstrated the value of Stokes.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 7:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's gonna be a long eight months man. It will be interesting to see how they make their pieces fit. I know I am really curious if they will attempt to address the 3 spot with more size. That's easier said than done. The Shock title teams were built around a combo of defense and athleticism. Some of that was built around the flexibility provided by PP and Swin. Let's face it, there's not many players who can play the 3 and 4 spots with the excellence that Swin displayed in 2003. And it's a different league now. You look at teams like Phoenix, LA and Minnesota, and they all have post players who are extremely athletic. All three teams also have considerable length. The Libs are pretty long themselves, and have the athleticism to match when Kiah is on the floor. But you look at how those teams can provide ample size at the 3 spot, then you look at NY and it's a different story. Add in players like Griner and Fowles...honestly those types of matchup nightmares were fewer and further between when Detroit was winning titles. Can the Libs counter that more effectively next year? Time will tell.

And when you take into account the style of play that has won for Laimbeer, there's still some pieces to be added. And in that process, some subtraction. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 11:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm not sure I would do it (I love Sugar and like Swords) but

Rodgers and Swords to SA for #1 pick Deshields

SA gets a true center and Rodgers could start at SG with McBride at the SF spot, it makes SA small, but Jefferson, Rodgers and McBride pretty interesting perimeter who can 3 ball back into any game. You won't be able to sag or double to much in SA that is for sure

I think Laimbeer and Wright could work with Deshields, she is 6' 1" and super athletic, ok she struggles with her shot, but playing between Prince and Charles Diamond could be an interesting 3rd option.

Wright/Boyd
Prince/Zellous/Schimmel
Deshields/Allen
Charles/Bulgak/2nd round draft pick or free agent
Stokes/Zahui B.

pick up C. Little to be the 4th post, bring back Bulgak to be 5th post this might work

PS I don't wan t to trade Rodgers but keeping it real she is our only big piece that could get something valuable in return, not trying to get rid of her I just don't see anyone else who is going to get that big piece is returning, even a risky big piece like Deshields is going to cost us.


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PostPosted: 09/28/16 11:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
I'm not sure I would do it (I love Sugar and like Swords) but

Rodgers and Swords to SA for #1 pick Deshields

SA gets a true center and Rodgers could start at SG with McBride at the SF spot, it makes SA small, but Jefferson, Rodgers and McBride pretty interesting perimeter who can 3 ball back into any game. You won't be able to sag or double to much in SA that is for sure

I think Laimbeer and Wright could work with Deshields, she is 6' 1" and super athletic, ok she struggles with her shot, but playing between Prince and Charles Diamond could be an interesting 3rd option.

Wright/Boyd
Prince/Zellous/Schimmel
Deshields/Allen
Charles/Bulgak/2nd round draft pick or free agent
Stokes/Zahui B.

pick up C. Little to be the 4th post, bring back Bulgak to be 5th post this might work

PS I don't wan t to trade Rodgers but keeping it real she is our only big piece that could get something valuable in return, not trying to get rid of her I just don't see anyone else who is going to get that big piece is returning, even a risky big piece like Deshields is going to cost us.


Interesting ideas. I'm not sold on Deshields yet, honestly, and she doesn't do much to solve the Liberty's lack of outside shooting (especially if you're trading Rodgers for her). I do like Little for them though, an actual stretch 4 rather than Zahui masquerading as one could do this roster a lot of good.

But IMO all of this is moot if a) Prince can't return to pre-ACL injury form and b) Boyd can't take the next step and prove herself as a legitimate starting point guard. The Liberty have much bigger problems than 4th/5th post players if neither of these things come to fruition.


Michelle89



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PostPosted: 09/29/16 2:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I thought this was a weak draft? So how the hell are you going to trade 2 starters of the 3rd team in the league for the number 1 pick who isn't a sure star..

I also saw a suggestion of the 3rd pick for Dolson. What the hell?



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PostPosted: 09/29/16 3:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
I thought this was a weak draft? So how the hell are you going to trade 2 starters of the 3rd team in the league for the number 1 pick who isn't a sure star..

I also saw a suggestion of the 3rd pick for Dolson. What the hell?


NY success isn't really a result of the starters, it is the result of depth, strong team defense, and superstar with a collection of role players that fit together well.

It would certainly be a risk for NY, if you think NY can get to a championship with the group it has with some internal improvement than no you don't do it, but if you think NY is pretty much getting the best out of its collection of decent pieces but isn't going to be able to get past the teams with more star talent you might be willing to take the risk if you think a #1 pick even in a weak draft might still have more potential than the current players you have and therefor could take you further. No team is giving up a #1 pick without getting a decent return. Jewel Loyd was a #1 pick in what was considered a weak draft but would some teams give up two starters to get her on their team based on where she could go, yes?

Rodgers is one of my favorite Liberty players and I look forward to her being on the team next season, but she is our only high value piece, and ATM we are deep at SG. Swords, again really like her, she is a legit 6' 6" but she has her limitations and while she is a starter Stokes averages more minutes off the bench, and if Zahui B. improves she will also eat into Swords minutes. Taking emotion out of it when it comes to trades you have to capitalize on your assets when they look to have the most value.

If you think Deshields is a taller R. Williams you don't do it, if you think she closer to the next McCoughtry you have to consider it.


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