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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 1:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
"Even if Piph was still healthy she was our No. 1 priority going into free agency," New York Liberty president Isiah Thomas said. "Before Piph was hurt, she was high on our board in terms of people we want to have play on our team. We look at it that she understands our chemistry, understands our defensive concepts. She knows [Coach Bill] Laimbeer. It's a good fit for us."


http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/14692797/new-york-liberty-sign-free-agent-shavonte-zellous



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 3:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Quote:
"Even if Piph was still healthy she was our No. 1 priority going into free agency," New York Liberty president Isiah Thomas said. "Before Piph was hurt, she was high on our board in terms of people we want to have play on our team. We look at it that she understands our chemistry, understands our defensive concepts. She knows [Coach Bill] Laimbeer. It's a good fit for us."


http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/14692797/new-york-liberty-sign-free-agent-shavonte-zellous


So what? We were talking about Zellous' thought process, not what Isiah was thinking. If Indiana wasn't capped out, Isiah could want Zellous enough to marry her and it wouldn't matter. Besides, where did I say that Prince's injury was the only reason NY was interested? Go back to page 1 of the Liberty 2016 thread where we discussed how New York's bench needed an upgrade. I also said at the time that who they ended up with would be primarily dictated by who was available rather than finding a perfect fit. If we fans could see that, I'm sure management saw it too. However, there are varying degrees of urgency. Do you not believe that NY's motivation increased after Prince's injury? And who knew at the time that Rodgers was capable of a borderline all-star season? There are multiple reasons why things occur and all of them count.


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 3:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Shades wrote:
Quote:
"Even if Piph was still healthy she was our No. 1 priority going into free agency," New York Liberty president Isiah Thomas said. "Before Piph was hurt, she was high on our board in terms of people we want to have play on our team. We look at it that she understands our chemistry, understands our defensive concepts. She knows [Coach Bill] Laimbeer. It's a good fit for us."


http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/14692797/new-york-liberty-sign-free-agent-shavonte-zellous


So what? We were talking about Zellous' thought process, not what Isiah was thinking. If Indiana wasn't capped out, Isiah could want Zellous enough to marry her and it wouldn't matter. Besides, where did I say that Prince's injury was the only reason NY was interested? Go back to page 1 of the Liberty 2016 thread where we discussed how New York's bench needed an upgrade. I also said at the time that who they ended up with would be primarily dictated by who was available rather than finding a perfect fit. If we fans could see that, I'm sure management saw it too. However, there are varying degrees of urgency. Do you not believe that NY's motivation increased after Prince's injury? And who knew at the time that Rodgers was capable of a borderline all-star season? There are multiple reasons why things occur and all of them count.


I agree with what root_thing is saying here, but for this. Do I need to explain why it's so disturbing to read these words: "If Indiana wasn't capped out, Isiah could want Zellous enough to marry her...."?



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zune69



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 4:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Question for liberty fans......if Dallas gets the #1 pick in the 2017 draft would you be willing to make any of the following trades:

Stokes for Deshields

Stokes/Allen for Sims/Christmas

Stokes for Diggins


pilight



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 5:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Stokes for Diggins


Shocked



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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 5:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Zune doesn't seem to get that NYL has enough guards.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 5:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Zune doesn't seem to get that NYL has enough guards.


Yeah, but they would still do the Diggins deal in a heartbeat



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 5:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
zune69 wrote:
Stokes for Diggins


Shocked


As a Wings fan I would not make this trade.Sims is not a franchise player imo.I just want to know how much Stokes is worth to Liberty fans.


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 5:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Viewed on their own, I wouldn't make any of these trades. Indeed, I wouldn't trade Kiah Stokes unless it was part of a (very unlikely) major roster transformation that would bring New York a center at least as good defensively as Stokes. And there aren't so many centers who can offer that.

The success of the Liberty in 2015 and 2016 has been built in important ways on defense and rebounding. In the last part of the season and in the playoff game against Phoenix, we got a good look at what it meant for the Liberty to play without Stokes or with Stokes barely having practiced, not being 100%, and playing limited minutes. It made a huge difference. Even if we assume that Zahui B will improve defensively next season (I do), she'd have to go a long way to make up for the loss of Stokes.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 5:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Shades wrote:
Zune doesn't seem to get that NYL has enough guards.


Yeah, but they would still do the Diggins deal in a heartbeat


I'm sure RocNation would love that deal, but they don't own the Liberty (but maybe they should).



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 09/27/16 8:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Question for liberty fans......if Dallas gets the #1 pick in the 2017 draft would you be willing to make any of the following trades:

Stokes for Deshields

Stokes/Allen for Sims/Christmas

Stokes for Diggins


I really like Stokes and our defense but tbh I would consider all three.

Diggins, Deshields and Sims all still have superstar potential so you have to consider it!

I highly doubt any of those offers would be made though, and I do love a player like Stokes, who achieves success beyond many expectations due to hard work, fit and toughness. That is pretty much the old school Liberty way.


J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 12:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So if SF is the position to fix lets look at all the options

I'm not going to count SG who can play SF since we have that in Zellous and/or Wright, or players who can swing to SF like Stewart, EDD, or Ogwumike as I think they are posts

NY What we have now
Zellous/Allen

Atl
McCoughtry/Holmes
Conn
A. Thomas/Stricklen
WAS
TRP/Copper
Indy
Coleman/S. Johnson
Chi
Young/Laney
LA
Carson/?
Minny
Moore/Hampton
Seattle
Clark/O'Hea/Wright
Dallas
Christmas/Powers/Hooper
SA
Currie/Gwathmey/Montgomery
PX
Bonner/Petrovic

So when you remove players that seem very unlikely to be available, and players that are not better than what we already have the list gets short fast

top tier
A. Thomas, Christmas, Clark

other options (but are they better)
Currie, Coleman, S. Johnson, O'hea

draft possibilities to trade up for
Deshields, Walker-Kimbrough, Coffey, Scaife, Epps, Davis (not sure if a few of those would be considered big enough to be considered true SF rather than SG who can play some 3)

So Christmas seems like the best option, we would probably have to be willing to trade Rodgers for her, or Stokes, unless she is an UFA and we could tempt her with a starting spot on a team that is closer to a ship than Dallas is currently. I really like A. Thomas but unless Miller wants to go in a different direction I'm not sure we could get her, and it it would cost us Rodgers or Stokes IMO. If O'hea or S. Johnson are UFA I'd make an offer. Clark for Swords is an intersting idea, Clark for Stokes (or maybe Zahui B.) seems more like what Seattle would want.


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PostPosted: 09/28/16 5:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Clark for Zahui id do in a second...see I had Swords as a higher value than zahui when I made that idea...but with age factoring in id say you could very well be right



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toad455



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 7:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I doubt Laimbeer is going to dump Zahui B. that quickly. I give her one more year in NY as his project.



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zune69



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 8:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

O'Hea/Allen > Clark/Christmas

Both are great 3pt shooters and have the defensive size/length to deal with the elite SF.Clark/Christmas are average 3pt shooters at best.Neither has the size or length to matchup with the best SF in the league.We just saw MCcoughtry destroy Clark.Bonner dropped 38 points on dallas earlier in the season.




Last edited by zune69 on 09/28/16 8:31 am; edited 1 time in total
toad455



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 8:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Laimbeer is also great for trading for unwanted players on other teams. We got Zahui B. for nothing(though tbd with Dallas' draft pick). We got Shimmel for nothing. We got Boyd in exchange for Alex Montgomery & we got Stokes in exchange for Anna Cruz(basically). Though I'd like to still have Cruz with us, Laimbeer knows how to make some kind of trades happen. A SF should be his #1 priority in free agency.

Though I doubt Seattle would want both Shimmel & KML on their team, I'd settle for Shimmel for O'Hea. Shimmel could play the back-up PG role in Seattle.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 9:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

We've heard it over and over again on Liberty broadcasts: Zahui B is la ong-term investment for NY. They apparently view her as a future starter. If you watch closely, there are essentially two Amandas -- one who uses good technique and positioning, and the other who stands upright and swats at anything that passes by like a swarm of annoying bugs. Unfortunately, the latter shows up at least 50% of the time. The issue with Zahui B is mental. She needs to focus. She needs to grow-up. If you watch the practice videos or read her tweets, Amanda is a goofball. That's fine, but she needs to learn to compartmentalize. You can be fun-loving off the court, but on the court you have to focus and be all business. That means doing things like bending your knees on defense and using footwork on offense. It takes extra effort, but it makes a huge difference.


Happycappie25



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 7:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
We've heard it over and over again on Liberty broadcasts: Zahui B is la ong-term investment for NY. They apparently view her as a future starter. If you watch closely, there are essentially two Amandas -- one who uses good technique and positioning, and the other who stands upright and swats at anything that passes by like a swarm of annoying bugs. Unfortunately, the latter shows up at least 50% of the time. The issue with Zahui B is mental. She needs to focus. She needs to grow-up. If you watch the practice videos or read her tweets, Amanda is a goofball. That's fine, but she needs to learn to compartmentalize. You can be fun-loving off the court, but on the court you have to focus and be all business. That means doing things like bending your knees on defense and using footwork on offense. It takes extra effort, but it makes a huge difference.


I agree, with wright and Z both getting on in years that's why I suggested swords...Zahui needs to be consistent, however that's done I agree, we know she could be dominant when reined in, we saw it in flashes here and we saw it at Minnesota...I'd take that gamble if it fills cash's role as I just don't see Allen ready defensively to take that mantle with nothing but defensive 2's to back her up in case she falters...next year I think does need to be THE year...Charles in prime, Prince healthy but entering 30s...Zellous and Wright (if they keep both) on the back 9, Rogers if kept (and I think it'd take TOPLINE talent for me put into a package to trade unless she demands a trade. A Thomas is the lowest player I'd want for anything involving Rogers. Clark i'd want something back draftwise as well to give up Sugar (besides she doesn't fit there)) and 4 third year players...agree we need to give someone up to fill Cash's hole...sticking with guards and allen just doesn't seem like a winner to me...too many times we got schooled that way to keep doing what doesn't work today. Things just seem perfect this year (barring injury) to make the big move if we can.

We'll see what we'll do...but the one big adjustment is at 3...something Bill ignored for way too long because of his love of Cash's leadership. And really if we go in with allen as our 3 from what I saw in the regular season off the bench and what I DIDN'T see in the playoffs...I don't trust that she can be the full time answer YET (will say if you do think she's close you CAN go older at the 3...but I'd prefer someone to be there for at least 2 years)

as for pairings I'd prefer offense defense with Allen...not 2 shooters but I wouldn't cry over Ohea she has game, even if Allen legit beats her out in camp for the starter's role. But I think a defensive 2 that can yin and yang with Allen depending on what is needed could help both immensely.

again THREE IS THE MAGIC NUMBER

Only player I'd dump is Schimmel...she can play somewhere but she doesn't fit the system...just like Mitchell didn't fit the system...It happens...it was right to take the chance but she will never develop the D bill demands IMHO



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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 7:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Happycappie25 wrote:


Only player I'd dump is Schimmel


Yes, please. *drool*



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 7:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Viewed on their own, I wouldn't make any of these trades. Indeed, I wouldn't trade Kiah Stokes unless it was part of a (very unlikely) major roster transformation that would bring New York a center at least as good defensively as Stokes. And there aren't so many centers who can offer that.

The success of the Liberty in 2015 and 2016 has been built in important ways on defense and rebounding. In the last part of the season and in the playoff game against Phoenix, we got a good look at what it meant for the Liberty to play without Stokes or with Stokes barely having practiced, not being 100%, and playing limited minutes. It made a huge difference. Even if we assume that Zahui B will improve defensively next season (I do), she'd have to go a long way to make up for the loss of Stokes.


I agree. And I still also believe Kiah has some offensive upside. Bill said she didn't really work enough on her offensive game last offseason. I would like to see what happens once she does. Maybe she will still be the same offensive player. But she can shoot better than her FT % indicates and she is one of the league's quickest bigs.

On Diggins, no I would not trade Stokes for Diggins, just as I am sure Dallas would not trade Diggins for Stokes. It would necessitate a complete team transformation on the part of both teams. One that I do not think would work for either team. We saw how substandard the Libs were on defense without Kiah and Wright. While losing Wright was obviously a factor as well, it clearly demonstrated the value of Stokes.



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 7:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's gonna be a long eight months man. It will be interesting to see how they make their pieces fit. I know I am really curious if they will attempt to address the 3 spot with more size. That's easier said than done. The Shock title teams were built around a combo of defense and athleticism. Some of that was built around the flexibility provided by PP and Swin. Let's face it, there's not many players who can play the 3 and 4 spots with the excellence that Swin displayed in 2003. And it's a different league now. You look at teams like Phoenix, LA and Minnesota, and they all have post players who are extremely athletic. All three teams also have considerable length. The Libs are pretty long themselves, and have the athleticism to match when Kiah is on the floor. But you look at how those teams can provide ample size at the 3 spot, then you look at NY and it's a different story. Add in players like Griner and Fowles...honestly those types of matchup nightmares were fewer and further between when Detroit was winning titles. Can the Libs counter that more effectively next year? Time will tell.

And when you take into account the style of play that has won for Laimbeer, there's still some pieces to be added. And in that process, some subtraction. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out.



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 11:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm not sure I would do it (I love Sugar and like Swords) but

Rodgers and Swords to SA for #1 pick Deshields

SA gets a true center and Rodgers could start at SG with McBride at the SF spot, it makes SA small, but Jefferson, Rodgers and McBride pretty interesting perimeter who can 3 ball back into any game. You won't be able to sag or double to much in SA that is for sure

I think Laimbeer and Wright could work with Deshields, she is 6' 1" and super athletic, ok she struggles with her shot, but playing between Prince and Charles Diamond could be an interesting 3rd option.

Wright/Boyd
Prince/Zellous/Schimmel
Deshields/Allen
Charles/Bulgak/2nd round draft pick or free agent
Stokes/Zahui B.

pick up C. Little to be the 4th post, bring back Bulgak to be 5th post this might work

PS I don't wan t to trade Rodgers but keeping it real she is our only big piece that could get something valuable in return, not trying to get rid of her I just don't see anyone else who is going to get that big piece is returning, even a risky big piece like Deshields is going to cost us.


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PostPosted: 09/28/16 11:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
I'm not sure I would do it (I love Sugar and like Swords) but

Rodgers and Swords to SA for #1 pick Deshields

SA gets a true center and Rodgers could start at SG with McBride at the SF spot, it makes SA small, but Jefferson, Rodgers and McBride pretty interesting perimeter who can 3 ball back into any game. You won't be able to sag or double to much in SA that is for sure

I think Laimbeer and Wright could work with Deshields, she is 6' 1" and super athletic, ok she struggles with her shot, but playing between Prince and Charles Diamond could be an interesting 3rd option.

Wright/Boyd
Prince/Zellous/Schimmel
Deshields/Allen
Charles/Bulgak/2nd round draft pick or free agent
Stokes/Zahui B.

pick up C. Little to be the 4th post, bring back Bulgak to be 5th post this might work

PS I don't wan t to trade Rodgers but keeping it real she is our only big piece that could get something valuable in return, not trying to get rid of her I just don't see anyone else who is going to get that big piece is returning, even a risky big piece like Deshields is going to cost us.


Interesting ideas. I'm not sold on Deshields yet, honestly, and she doesn't do much to solve the Liberty's lack of outside shooting (especially if you're trading Rodgers for her). I do like Little for them though, an actual stretch 4 rather than Zahui masquerading as one could do this roster a lot of good.

But IMO all of this is moot if a) Prince can't return to pre-ACL injury form and b) Boyd can't take the next step and prove herself as a legitimate starting point guard. The Liberty have much bigger problems than 4th/5th post players if neither of these things come to fruition.



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Michelle89



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PostPosted: 09/29/16 2:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I thought this was a weak draft? So how the hell are you going to trade 2 starters of the 3rd team in the league for the number 1 pick who isn't a sure star..

I also saw a suggestion of the 3rd pick for Dolson. What the hell?



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PostPosted: 09/29/16 3:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
I thought this was a weak draft? So how the hell are you going to trade 2 starters of the 3rd team in the league for the number 1 pick who isn't a sure star..

I also saw a suggestion of the 3rd pick for Dolson. What the hell?


NY success isn't really a result of the starters, it is the result of depth, strong team defense, and superstar with a collection of role players that fit together well.

It would certainly be a risk for NY, if you think NY can get to a championship with the group it has with some internal improvement than no you don't do it, but if you think NY is pretty much getting the best out of its collection of decent pieces but isn't going to be able to get past the teams with more star talent you might be willing to take the risk if you think a #1 pick even in a weak draft might still have more potential than the current players you have and therefor could take you further. No team is giving up a #1 pick without getting a decent return. Jewel Loyd was a #1 pick in what was considered a weak draft but would some teams give up two starters to get her on their team based on where she could go, yes?

Rodgers is one of my favorite Liberty players and I look forward to her being on the team next season, but she is our only high value piece, and ATM we are deep at SG. Swords, again really like her, she is a legit 6' 6" but she has her limitations and while she is a starter Stokes averages more minutes off the bench, and if Zahui B. improves she will also eat into Swords minutes. Taking emotion out of it when it comes to trades you have to capitalize on your assets when they look to have the most value.

If you think Deshields is a taller R. Williams you don't do it, if you think she closer to the next McCoughtry you have to consider it.


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PostPosted: 09/29/16 5:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Happycappie25 wrote:


Only player I'd dump is Schimmel


Yes, please. *drool*


I get WHY you say that but I just don't think she'd be that good...especially not in Bill's defensive system...and even then I think we're staring at the WNBA's Jeff George. Has the talent, is loved for the talent, never actually lives up to the talent. I'll take the risk, especially since she's a bad fit here defensively if it means she's part of a package to fill the hole from swin or if she frees up space to sign a UFA that fills a need.



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PostPosted: 09/29/16 5:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:

I also saw a suggestion of the 3rd pick for Dolson. What the hell?


This was my trade proposal,and it was based on the hypothetical of washington drafting Coates with the #2 pick.Latta is 32 years old.Hartley is pregnant.Hill,Ruffin-Pratt and Cloud are all mid 30% fg shooters.If the mystics draft Coates with the 2nd pick,I could see Mike Thibault trading Dolson for the #3 pick then drafting Plum,Walker-Kimbrough or Jones.It's not out of the realm of possibility.On draft night 2014 Thibs traded Langhorne for Hartley.So the precedent has already been set.Lets not act like Dolson is some world beater.She averaged 9p/5r/1a/1b


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PostPosted: 09/29/16 6:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Decent to all star centers are not easy to come by. I think Dolson is a solid center in this league. And the combination of her and Meesseman will be their strength in the future.

I agree with you that they need a stronger guard though but they need someone with experience at that position IMO.
A rookie is not going to help them that much.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/29/16 10:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
I could see Mike Thibault trading Dolson for the #3 pick then drafting Plum, Walker-Kimbrough or Jones. It's not out of the realm of possibility.


6'5 players are rare. 6'5 players that survive the first three years of WNBA development (not to mention the UConn pedigree) are even rarer. Why start over with Coates? How do you know if she's much better than Dolson, or isn't another Ibiam, the last great SC center prospect? Thibault can be goofy at draft time, but hopefully he'll be more serious now that he has a #2 pick. He was happy being #2 (up from #4). Now if a bunch of players early declare (which has been the trend lately), Thibault should be sitting pretty. I say keep Dolson, unless better offers come up. There could be competing offers from a few teams like SEA or CHI.


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PostPosted: 09/29/16 10:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
Decent to all star centers are not easy to come by. I think Dolson is a solid center in this league. And the combination of her and Meesseman will be their strength in the future.

I agree with you that they need a stronger guard though but they need someone with experience at that position IMO.
A rookie is not going to help them that much.


Shades wrote:

6'5 players are rare. 6'5 players that survive the first three years of WNBA development (not to mention the UConn pedigree) are even rarer. Why start over with Coates? How do you know if she's much better than Dolson, or isn't another Ibiam, the last great SC center prospect? Thibault can be goofy at draft time, but hopefully he'll be more serious now that he has a #2 pick. He was happy being #2 (up from #4). Now if a bunch of players early declare (which has been the trend lately), Thibault should be sitting pretty. I say keep Dolson, unless better offers come up. There could be competing offers from a few teams like SEA or CHI.


No argument from me....Dolson would fit nicely on dallas.I prefer Dolson to Vaughn.


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PostPosted: 09/29/16 11:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm not sure how this turned into a WAS thread, but remember draft day in 2010 when Thibault (and it was clear HE was in charge of all player movement) traded the first and second round picks of the 2011 draft (nice draft) for Kelsey Griffin? Now that was pretty reckless. You can tell he was feeling pretty cocky and untouchable when he scored the #1 pick (Charles) from Minnesota in January of 2010. I wonder if Thibault learned from from the Griffin trade (she was pretty hype back then) or might he still be vulnerable to recklessness.


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PostPosted: 09/29/16 11:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
I'm not sure how this turned into a WAS thread, but remember draft day in 2010 when Thibault (and it was clear HE was in charge of all player movement) traded the first and second round picks of the 2011 draft (nice draft) for Kelsey Griffin? Now that was pretty reckless. You can tell he was feeling pretty cocky and untouchable when he scored the #1 pick (Charles) from Minnesota in January of 2010. I wonder if Thibault learned from from the Griffin trade (she was pretty hype back then) or might he still be vulnerable to recklessness.


Good point. If nothing else, we learned in the past few years that this is a very balanced league, and an injury or two here, a disappointing season there, and all of a sudden a team that looked like a lock for the playoffs is lottery bound. Or vice versa.

And the other X Factor is that you never really know who might emerge in the coming college season – for example, this one – who will suddenly look like a WNBA All-Star.



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PostPosted: 09/29/16 11:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Watching all these high-scoring playoff games where the winners are getting into the 100's or at least the 90's makes me wonder whether the Liberty can keep playing grind-it-out, defensive style basketball and still win a championship. Yes, you can win games playing that way during the regular season. The WNBA has a ridiculously short preseason, and most of the star players don't even show up until it's almost over. That means for much of the first month, offenses are out-of-sync and it helps the defensive-oriented teams. Throw in injuries or people sitting out like we had in 2015, and a system based on your opponent's failure to execute can work pretty well. But what if your opponent is at full strength and their game is flowing? Can you still win with subpar to average offense just by grinding on the defensive end? And what if you only play one defense, but the opposition has figured out how to beat it?

Just thinking out loud here. I hope our coaching staff isn't stuck in the last decade. Reeve has a similar philosophy to Laimbeer, but it looks like she has made tweaks and adjustments along the way. Having better talent obviously helps too. But sometimes the things I hear about "that's not who we are" or a Laimbeer team has to do this or that -- it makes me wonder if we're not hampered by self-imposed limitations, behavior based on a possibly faulty assumption that what worked in the past will work today. There's an anachronistic feel to this team. It makes me think of Hillary Clinton spending millions on TV ads while Donald Trump gets by using social media and free news coverage. Don't read that as a political statement -- it's an observation about change. Smile Beyond the talent issue, I just hope Liberty management is keeping an eye on league trends. I have similar concerns with the Knicks. There's a very retro backward-looking air about them under Phil Jackson. So, are we watching the application of tried and true methods or do we see people living in the past?


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PostPosted: 10/03/16 3:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I was thinking that too. Hopefully the coming year will be different in that we will have 3 healthy big scorers instead of 2. Whether that's Piph and Rodgers in tandem who knows? Those Detroit teams had many scorers, some of whom sacrificed their scoring to fill other roles. However, they were more a physical scoring team, if that makes sense.

But I totally agree with the basic premise. You are not winning by being a middle rung offensive team and upper end defensive team anymore. The league is too good offensively, and the officiating is far more in favor of offense than it was when Detroit was winning multiple titles. Every team in the league has multiple scorers now too. You can have the best defenders in the world and still give up 90 against a high scoring team fairly easily. With a healthy Stokes I think we'd have beaten Phoenix. But it's still entirely possible they'd have run up high 90's in points anyway. They rung up 100 on us in June with a healthier squad.

These two years have been a breath of fresh air for the organization, and I still think you need the right kind of players for a Laimbeer system to be successful. I think the difference now is in the point you've made. Could Laimbeer coach the Lynx to titles? Yes. The thing with a team like Minnesota is they're physical AND they have top level scoring. To win championships in the league now you gotta have both elite offense and defense. There is simply no other way. That's why I think one way or another the Libs have to get bigger at the 3 spot while also enhancing their athleticism at the position. To match up to Minnesota or LA or even Phoenix, that's the next step. The fact that it would fit a Laimbeer philosophy would sort of be a bonus. Luckily for NY, they have the best scoring and passing post in the league, so it makes sense that they use her within a framework that LFO has had success with in the past. I just think you don't want to ride post players in the fourth quarter of games. It's much easier to create on the perimeter than in the post late in games when D is swarming. To get closer to Minnesota in that regard, the 3 scorer thing is a necessity. Also Sugar is not really one to create her own shot. In that sense replacing her with a longer player who can would be a nice addition. If you can pull it off. They're not exactly readily available.



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PostPosted: 10/03/16 3:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It may not be coincidental that the four semifinalists were the top four teams in OER



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PostPosted: 10/03/16 3:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'd concur. Especially seeing the number of free throws teams were attempting. You take offense-oriented teams and have games called that way, the offensive talent is going to take over.

Not a criticism. Just an observation. I hated the rugby style of play in the early 2000s, exhibit A being game 3 of the 2001 ECF. The Liberty have to adjust accordingly. They got their chances at the foul line against Phoenix themselves. Phoenix, however, fully capitalized to the tune of 100% from the line. The Libs did not.



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PostPosted: 10/03/16 4:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I could see Camille Little as a platoon PF for close-out with Charles at Center. Have her as an O/D switch with Stokes. Little got stuck in the hole 'rastin' with Big Bigs too much at the end there at Seattle, yet had to chase some SFs out on the perimeter for the Sun. She worked at PF rather well, just ask Lauren Jackson.

Prince at Chicago variously had to play Point , back-up Point , Combo , Chucker , System , whatever came down the pike in the middle of a season. She would be better served at strictly Shooting Guard but she has the handles for some point duty. Boyd , Wright, and running the offense through Charles anyway, is more than enough complimentary handles. They can get away with Sugar and Prince out there so long as Wright or Charles is out there too.


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PostPosted: 10/03/16 6:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So if the Liberty need more offense, then whoever plays small forward needs to score. That didn't happen this year, and I don't see it happening with the players on the roster. Shavonte Zellous is not a scorer – she can do some things but she's not get a ring up 15 every night.

Maybe you can get enough from the triumvirate of Charles, Piph, and Rodgers, but it's hard to see how a Prince/Rogers backcourt is going to really work.

Bottom line: You win with talent, and New York is just a little short in the scoring talent department. Trader Bill needs to work his magic…



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PostPosted: 10/03/16 6:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Z is also better when she occasionally has the defense broken down for her. Something Indy had better players for than NY. I think Z is an important role player but I think the position needs not only more consistent scoring but more size. The elite teams in the league have it. The Liberty come up a bit short in that area for a team built around rebounding and defense.



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PostPosted: 10/03/16 9:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I haven't seen enough of some of the other draft options.

Would Nia Coffey be a fit for the Liberty at SF? She seems to be a decent scorer.

Right now she is projected in the middle of the first round. If Seattle wants a defensive big I could see them trading the #6 pick for Swords, and before people scoff, I was the only one who thought we could get a first round pick for A. Montgomery and we did, and Swords offers a little more to the right team, #6 might seem high for Swords but 6' 6" borderline starting centers don't grow on trees, and Seattle doesn't really need a scorer at the center position, so Swords would be a nice fit for them.


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PostPosted: 10/03/16 11:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
I haven't seen enough of some of the other draft options.

Would Nia Coffey be a fit for the Liberty at SF? She seems to be a decent scorer.

Right now she is projected in the middle of the first round. If Seattle wants a defensive big I could see them trading the #6 pick for Swords, and before people scoff, I was the only one who thought we could get a first round pick for A. Montgomery and we did, and Swords offers a little more to the right team, #6 might seem high for Swords but 6' 6" borderline starting centers don't grow on trees, and Seattle doesn't really need a scorer at the center position, so Swords would be a nice fit for them.


Swords would definitely be a good fit in Seattle. In addition to filling a height need, she would fit well with Stewie on the offensive end. Swords gets most of her points on layups. Stewie is an excellent passer who could handle high/low passing to Swords quite well. It's a realistic proposal. One that I could see Seattle wanting.



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PostPosted: 10/04/16 12:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:
I haven't seen enough of some of the other draft options.

Would Nia Coffey be a fit for the Liberty at SF? She seems to be a decent scorer.

Right now she is projected in the middle of the first round. If Seattle wants a defensive big I could see them trading the #6 pick for Swords, and before people scoff, I was the only one who thought we could get a first round pick for A. Montgomery and we did, and Swords offers a little more to the right team, #6 might seem high for Swords but 6' 6" borderline starting centers don't grow on trees, and Seattle doesn't really need a scorer at the center position, so Swords would be a nice fit for them.


Swords would definitely be a good fit in Seattle. In addition to filling a height need, she would fit well with Stewie on the offensive end. Swords gets most of her points on layups. Stewie is an excellent passer who could handle high/low passing to Swords quite well. It's a realistic proposal. One that I could see Seattle wanting.


I would be oke with that for sure. The 6th pick is not going to help this team right away. A big center that is pretty stable and is used to starting or playing big minutes is..



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PostPosted: 10/04/16 3:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Happycappie25 wrote:
Shades wrote:
Happycappie25 wrote:


Only player I'd dump is Schimmel


Yes, please. *drool*


I get WHY you say that but I just don't think she'd be that good...especially not in Bill's defensive system...and even then I think we're staring at the WNBA's Jeff George. Has the talent, is loved for the talent, never actually lives up to the talent. I'll take the risk, especially since she's a bad fit here defensively if it means she's part of a package to fill the hole from swin or if she frees up space to sign a UFA that fills a need.


Since you value Schimmel at $0,

Zahui + Schimmel for Clark

If SEA doesn't take that deal, they're crazy!


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PostPosted: 10/04/16 4:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Happycappie25 wrote:
Shades wrote:
Happycappie25 wrote:


Only player I'd dump is Schimmel


Yes, please. *drool*


I get WHY you say that but I just don't think she'd be that good...especially not in Bill's defensive system...and even then I think we're staring at the WNBA's Jeff George. Has the talent, is loved for the talent, never actually lives up to the talent. I'll take the risk, especially since she's a bad fit here defensively if it means she's part of a package to fill the hole from swin or if she frees up space to sign a UFA that fills a need.


Since you value Schimmel at $0,

Zahui + Schimmel for Clark

If SEA doesn't take that deal, they're crazy!


Nah i rather keep Clark. She and Bird are the leaders for this team. We already have one heavy weight in KML so that's enough. Jenna O'Hea is taking the offseason off so hopefully she can get healthy for next season but i dont see Boucek starting her. So we need our starting SF Clark and hopefully Jenna can back her up for decent minutes + some minutes at the 2



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PostPosted: 10/04/16 4:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Seattle is closest to Schimmel's Oregon fan base. She would more than pay for her own salary by filling the seats and sales of merchandise (something NYL fans are short-sighted about). And I believe Seattle is the only team with a nutritionalist, so that may prove fruitful.

I don't believe Zahui has come close to her potential although we've seen flashes. With somebody like Swords, you know what you're getting and you can't expect to get any more.


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PostPosted: 10/04/16 5:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I still think an even trade of Schimmel for O'Hea would benefit both teams.



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PostPosted: 10/04/16 6:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Seattle is closest to Schimmel's Oregon fan base. She would more than pay for her own salary by filling the seats and sales of merchandise (something NYL fans are short-sighted about). And I believe Seattle is the only team with a nutritionalist, so that may prove fruitful.


Pardon me for not remembering, but what are your business credentials again? If you're so good at business, why aren't you managing your ventures rather than spending so much time posting game day threads? And what is a nutritionalist? If you mean a nutritionist, Katie Smith has a masters degree in Medical Dietetics so she can provide advice to Liberty players as a coach, a former player, and a nutritionist.


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PostPosted: 10/04/16 6:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Clark is a nice player but she could not stay with Angel in the one and done game at all, and her size was exposed against the bigger, more athletic Angel. I respect her D, and understand that maybe nobody can guard Angel when she's playing that way, but not sure why she would even be considered that much of an upgrade over what we have. She might not even be an upgrade. She's 5'10 just like Zellous. She's a better 3 ball shooter, but Z creates her own shot better, so...

That's not what we need. If we are going to compete for a championship, we need size and scoring on the wing. I certainly wouldn't trade Zahui for her. I'd rather roll the dice on Allen developing enough to be more of a factor next year.



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PostPosted: 10/04/16 6:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hmm... that seemed like a personal slight. You don't appreciate the game day threads? Well, what else is new?


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PostPosted: 10/04/16 7:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Even though I suggested the Schimmel for O'hea trade somewhere part of me has faith that Schimmel is going to come back next season and be a contributing member of the team off the bench doing some shooting, some back up/back up PG duty and bringing some show-time.

I always believed both Schimmel and Zahui B. were investments for the future not fixes for 2016. This off-season will be a huge opportunity for Schimmel to get to the right place for her basketball career. My psychic powers tell me that BL probably likes her and would like nothing more than to be able to use her as part of the team. Earlier in the thread people were talking about offense even in her limited minutes Shoni was putting the ball in the basket, if she can upgrade her defense and speed she can contribute, fingers crossed, and if she didn't get the wake up call from last off-season and it doesn't work out we didn't lose much (I believe it will be the #22 pick in this upcoming draft.) Seattle would be a good place to trade her because of potential Box Office appeal, but I think both teams can afford to wait until next pre-season to make any moves involving Schimmel. I really want her to come back and kill it just to see the reaction.


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