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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 02/12/17 8:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Shades wrote:
What do you think of Alexis Prince of Baylor at #14? That's probably around where she should go. Two Princes, one team? Think of the promotional possibilities. Katie Smith is doing color on the Baylor game right now, and Prince is having a good game and a good season.


Prince is viable, but she's similar to Allen in that she's slender and a long range shooter. I think Liberty fans are looking for a complementary player who is stronger, grittier and more capable of getting physical both on offense and defense.


Agreed.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 02/12/17 9:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Shades wrote:
What do you think of Alexis Prince of Baylor at #14? That's probably around where she should go. Two Princes, one team? Think of the promotional possibilities. Katie Smith is doing color on the Baylor game right now, and Prince is having a good game and a good season.


Prince is viable, but she's similar to Allen in that she's slender and a long range shooter. I think Liberty fans are looking for a complementary player who is stronger, grittier and more capable of getting physical both on offense and defense.


Maybe you could trade for Currie if SAN picks up DeShields and she doesn't feel like being a mentor.

Rogers for Currie?



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Michelle89



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PostPosted: 02/13/17 5:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
root_thing wrote:
Shades wrote:
What do you think of Alexis Prince of Baylor at #14? That's probably around where she should go. Two Princes, one team? Think of the promotional possibilities. Katie Smith is doing color on the Baylor game right now, and Prince is having a good game and a good season.


Prince is viable, but she's similar to Allen in that she's slender and a long range shooter. I think Liberty fans are looking for a complementary player who is stronger, grittier and more capable of getting physical both on offense and defense.


Maybe you could trade for Currie if SAN picks up DeShields and she doesn't feel like being a mentor.

Rogers for Currie?


Laughing



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Shades



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PostPosted: 02/13/17 12:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

THE SHACOBIA BARBEE REPORT by Shades
Plays for Universitario de Ferrol in Spain
Listed at 179 cm which works out to be about 5'10
Appears to play SG or G/F
Plays most min on team at 35.5 mpg
Scores 12.3 pts in those 35.5 min. Kinda meh
Has a good 2P%, 3P% is meh
FT% is bad but at least she gets to the line, shows aggression (4 ftapg)
ato < 1
Plays with Penn St great, Maggie Lyon







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toad455



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PostPosted: 02/13/17 6:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

maybe Barbee is our saving grace at SF...



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 02/14/17 2:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I still think Barbee is on the outside looking in. She isn't bigger than Zellous or Wright, and she doesn't have the range of Allen. No matter how you lay out the pieces Barbee would need to jump over someone in the depth chart to be in a position to make it, and at least until a trade happens that means she needs to get past one of these players

Prince, Rodgers, Wright, Zellous, Allen, Boyd, Harltey

I'm not even sure with the different skills they bring to the table that Barbee would be ahead of Schimmel whose three point shot and ability to play at the PG spot might allow her to hold onto that 12th spot, though at the moment both are on the outside looking in. Then Factor in Barbeee is small for the three and if Burdick gets the 12th spot she might be seen as a sometime SF, that is even more competition for Barbee to beat out. If she had a killer three to go with her defense that would help but that doesn't seem to be the case. And this is before you add in the #14 pick who could end up being someone like Romero, or Weiss, or Jankoska who both have the long ball and PG skills, or Epps or Sykes who are probably similar or better at the same things Barbee is good at.

Yes there might be some trades involving the wings/guards ahead of her but unless those trades are bringing back a post, or are 2 for 1 the return in the trade should simply replace the current player on the depth chart ahead of her.

It is nothing personal, I wish her the best, but unless she is killing it in camp I don't see how she knocks off anyone on the list above. And while we need the SF spot if Schimmel comes back in shape she gives us something the other guards we have don't with her shooting, so if anyone is stealing a spot, I'm still rooting for Shoni.


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PostPosted: 02/14/17 7:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
I still think Barbee is on the outside looking in. She isn't bigger than Zellous or Wright, and she doesn't have the range of Allen. No matter how you lay out the pieces Barbee would need to jump over someone in the depth chart to be in a position to make it, and at least until a trade happens that means she needs to get past one of these players

Prince, Rodgers, Wright, Zellous, Allen, Boyd, Harltey

I'm not even sure with the different skills they bring to the table that Barbee would be ahead of Schimmel whose three point shot and ability to play at the PG spot might allow her to hold onto that 12th spot, though at the moment both are on the outside looking in. Then Factor in Barbeee is small for the three and if Burdick gets the 12th spot she might be seen as a sometime SF, that is even more competition for Barbee to beat out. If she had a killer three to go with her defense that would help but that doesn't seem to be the case. And this is before you add in the #14 pick who could end up being someone like Romero, or Weiss, or Jankoska who both have the long ball and PG skills, or Epps or Sykes who are probably similar or better at the same things Barbee is good at.

Yes there might be some trades involving the wings/guards ahead of her but unless those trades are bringing back a post, or are 2 for 1 the return in the trade should simply replace the current player on the depth chart ahead of her.

It is nothing personal, I wish her the best, but unless she is killing it in camp I don't see how she knocks off anyone on the list above. And while we need the SF spot if Schimmel comes back in shape she gives us something the other guards we have don't with her shooting, so if anyone is stealing a spot, I'm still rooting for Shoni.


not just that she'd have to be a massive stopper...Allen is our offensive 3 and more than likely the starter...we need a defensive 3 to back her up or even split minutes because we know Bill isn't fully sold on her D (but could be once the season starts) since he abandoned her in the Playoffs (and honestly we could have used a timely corner 3 when we were working our way back into the game in the 3rd quarter...I thought that was very telling.

Honestly I'd give Burdick more of a shot of making the roster as that 3...that said Barbee will get a long look...perhaps more than our pick...lets see how that works.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 02/14/17 10:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Latest Liberty overseas link
http://liberty.wnba.com/news/liberty-international-update-2-14/

Zahui had a 30 point game on 2/12



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 02/14/17 3:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Unless Barbee has suddenly improved her game a lot since college, I would be very surprised to see her on the final roster... That improvement of course made more difficult by the injury.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 02/14/17 7:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The one game I watched with Barbee in Spain, she was playing SF. Shacobia actively battled underneath for rebounds and seemed strong enough, but her lack of height was a problem. I didn't see any extraordinary jumping ability that would help her. Between Barbee and Burdick, I view Cierra as the more promising of the two. Burdick is only listed at 160 lbs, but some people are wiry strong and play bigger than their weight. Otherwise, we've talked about Mo Currie before. I don't want to overpay for her -- SAS only gave up a 2nd Round pick in a weak draft -- but we might need to unload a veteran to fit this under the cap. Richyyy had proposed Zellous for Currie awhile back. If Wright is actually returning, then that trade would make some sense. However, I have no idea what SAS is thinking these days -- new coach, new GM, very little history.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 02/15/17 10:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Some random thoughts. Now again, I'm not stating my opinion necessarily, I'm just thinking what the Liberty might do. Assuming that there's no major trade for a starting SF, I see there being two logical schools of thought:

1) Laimbeer follows the patterns of the philosophies he has historically shown. As such, that starting lineup would likely be Wright, Piph, Allen, Charles and Zahui B. I say that because Wright is a bigger guard, and she's really good at getting over screens and on-ball defense. As the first defender on the ball, those would be important skills. LFO has said in the past that he trusts Wright as the lead guard and he has often alluded to having a "second unit" that can also score. In this scenario, the offense is weaker on the first unit but you'd have a nice second unit keyed by Rodgers, Stokes, Boyd/Hartley and Zellous.

2) Laimbeer deviates from the strength/defense orientation to some extent and goes with a starting lineup of Piph, Sugar, Allen, Tina and Zahui B. In defense of this lineup, Laimbeer has been quoted as saying something to the effect of Wright pushes the ball up at a snail's pace. Piph probably wouldn't push it that much faster, but she would at least be a quicker threat to score. This lineup could be potent offensively if Piph can handle a lead guard role in the offense but you have to wonder about the defensive and rebounding aspects.

A few of my own thoughts. I believe Zahui is going to start because Vaughn is a logical enough 4 spot player (being that she has a reliable shot from 15-17 feet) that you don't need to have Zahui strictly be Tina's replacement anymore. Regarding the second lineup, I personally wouldn't mind it. But I'm not the coach so the more I think about it, the less I believe the second lineup is going to happen. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to use Wright as a backup small forward when it's questionable that her body can handle it. Also, when Wright has played with Prince, her A/TO has been way higher than when not playing with Prince. Furthermore, if Piph isn't with the team for training camp, I say there's no shot they're converting her to starting point guard. Laimbeer was slow to attempt it with Cappie for the same reason and Piph is even less of a PG than Cappie was.

So basically, the way I see the Liberty going is either school of thought #1 or some type of trade that clears up the fact that two of the three best players on the team play the same position. Not because it's my opinion of what they should do necessarily. Just that I think that when push comes to shove Laimbeer will follow his philosophy. It also doesn't seem to me that they are inclined to move Sugar, and I believe that there are some rules about her being traded within a certain time frame as a re-signed RFA. So....we'll see what it adds up to somehow. It's going to be interesting. It's an odd thing in that now with the addition of two players for Swords we have even more depth than we had before. Our bench is potentially very, very good and from 1-11 all the players are capable of contributing. There's a pretty good amount of talent on the roster. It's an unusual thing to wonder how such talent will be grouped. But that's the current state of the 2017 Liberty.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 02/15/17 11:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If there isn't major change I see Stokes as the new starter at Center, she is a strong compliment to Charles and has earned the minutes more the Zahui B. I see Zahui B. as the offensive weapon in the post off the bench, Zahui B will be on the floor anytime Charles is not, and seems like a nice compliment to Vaughn as a more physical player under the basket.

On the perimeter I'm think Zellous gets the nod at the SF spot if Laimbeer decides to start Prince and Rodgers, Zellous gives you that extra ball handler to compliment the lack of a true starting point, and seemed to run the offense last season more than Prince or Rodgers when she was on the floor. And Wright (who I'm back to wondering if she will be with the Liberty at all at this point) is a nice balancing vet playing between Boyd and Allen if they go with the second unit concept.


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PostPosted: 02/16/17 12:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Zahui B. has been hitting the occasional 3 while playing for Nadehzda. I'd be curious if this is something she'd really develop.


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PostPosted: 02/16/17 1:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Meanwhile, to offer the third path, my first guess would be that Vaughn will start at center. It's never made much sense that Stokes wasn't starting, but they seem to like bringing her off the bench, and Vaughn gives them a much more solid and physical defender alongside Charles to open games than AZB would. Zahui B might be better than she was, but her defense still wasn't anywhere near 'good' last year. Keeping her as Charles's backup who occasionally plays with her if she's rolling makes more sense to me.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 02/16/17 1:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nothing would surprise me, but my best guess is that Stokes will begin the season as our starter. I just think with multiple changes to the lineup, Bill will feel more comfortable having his best defender/second best rebounder on the floor to serve as an anchor. Remember, Kiah actually began the 2015 season as a starter. They switched to Swords because they needed more offense, but that was a line-up with defensive specialist Wright joined by rusty/gimpy Carson and Wiggins. It was really anemic. The current group has a lot more potential firepower if you start Rodgers, Prince, and Allen.

I don't consider Zellous to be a better ballhandler than Allen. Shavonte was just horrible when they used her at lead guard last season. Allen played some backup PG in Australia. Not saying she was good, but it was no different than Zellous -- just emergency duty. Bec handles the ball well enough for an SF. I think it's more important to have Allen's size on defense.

The unknown factor here is Hartley. To me, the only reason to make that three-way trade is if management sees some PG potential in Hartley. Obviously, she has the whole pregnancy thing to deal with, but if Bria is fit she could be an interesting option. She's fast like Boyd, has the best ability to create her own shot after Prince, and is historically a good defender -- although her DRtg was bad last season. Bria does need help with her PG skills. Living locally, one would expect her to arrive in camp early to work with T-Spoon and Isiah. Also, if Hartley is healthy, maybe she can achieve the shooting consistency that has eluded her so far as a pro.

This will still result in NY having a smallish backcourt, but if the Liberty weren't willing to play this way, then they shouldn't have accumulated so many 5-8/5-9 guards. That said, like most Liberty fans, I do think a trade is coming -- probably right before the draft.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 02/16/17 6:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Vaughn will start at center. Zahui B. played mostly PF last season, basically backing up Charles. Only time Zahui B. played center was when Stokes was injured & Swords was in foul trouble.



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PostPosted: 02/16/17 7:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Given Laimbeer's history of shuffling people when things haven't been going well for a few games, it'll probably be all of them at one point or another. Wink



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 02/16/17 11:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Last season Carolyn Swords was mainly the starter at center. But, with good reason, Kiah Stokes was the player usually out there in the fourth quarter. So whether Kia Vaughn or Kiah Stokes is the 2017 starter doesn't interest me all that much, any more than the starting lineup at other positions. What I think about is who will play the most minutes and where. And who will be out there at the end of the game. In my view, these are the crucial questions, not who is or isn't a starter.



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PostPosted: 02/16/17 2:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
Given Laimbeer's history of shuffling people when things haven't been going well for a few games, it'll probably be all of them at one point or another. Wink


Bob Lamm wrote:
Last season Carolyn Swords was mainly the starter at center. But, with good reason, Kiah Stokes was the player usually out there in the fourth quarter. So whether Kia Vaughn or Kiah Stokes is the 2017 starter doesn't interest me all that much, any more than the starting lineup at other positions. What I think about is who will play the most minutes and where. And who will be out there at the end of the game. In my view, these are the crucial questions, not who is or isn't a starter.


Laimbeer has gone as far as referring to his players as "buttons" to be pushed. If one option doesn't work, try another. Bill employs a deeper rotation than most coaches. However, for the last two seasons, it was pretty clear that the "starters" were a makeshift bunch being used out of necessity. Now that we're talking about younger players with the potential to be "real" starters, the nature of the discussion changes. I'm guessing that in a perfect world, like most coaches, Laimbeer would prefer a first unit comprised of his best players who play the most minutes.



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PostPosted: 02/16/17 3:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Laimbeer's title teams didn't feature heavy minutes from most of the starters. In 2003, only Swin Cash averaged 30+ minutes per game. In 2006 & 2008 only Deanna Nolan and Katie Smith did so. The 2008 Shock had nine players who played 300 or more regular season minutes and a 10th who had 297. 12 players averaged double digit minutes for that team, 10 of whom played in 16 or more games.



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PostPosted: 02/16/17 6:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I see AZB as a truer center than Vaughn and I think Laimbeer likes Stokes off the bench. I also think the physicality of AZB can be used to set a Laimbeer-style tone early. She's foul prone, we know this. If she gets 2 early, in comes Kiah.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 02/16/17 6:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Laimbeer's title teams didn't feature heavy minutes from most of the starters. In 2003, only Swin Cash averaged 30+ minutes per game. In 2006 & 2008 only Deanna Nolan and Katie Smith did so. The 2008 Shock had nine players who played 300 or more regular season minutes and a 10th who had 297. 12 players averaged double digit minutes for that team, 10 of whom played in 16 or more games.


Yes! That was my point about AZB starting. Just to set an early tone by running the floor and being physical. Not for big minutes, unless she earns them on a given night.



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 02/16/17 7:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I kinda think Vaughn starts as well, with Stokes backing her up and AZB playing the 4 behind Tina. Unless there are some big changes (not impossible) to her game I can't see why NY would start AZB. She brings energy, but also makes lots of mistakes and I think she's also more like 6'2" unless you count the hair height. But yeah, Bill will probably press lots of different buttons in different situations.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 02/16/17 7:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The idea that AZB is 6'2" is a fallacy. I sat no more than 10 feet away from her in DC. She was a little taller than Stokes. Not 6'5". But def not 6'2". She's one-two inches taller than Vaughn, whose listed height has been inflated for years.

Mind you, I'm stating my opinion of what I think the Liberty will do. Not what necessarily I would do. On a Laimbeer team, the physical element is why I'd see AZB starting. The starter isn't going to play that much anyway before Stokes comes off the bench for the majority of minutes.



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PostPosted: 02/16/17 7:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'll also go so far as to say, if Zahui is the fourth post on the depth chart again, it's something of a waste to her development. If that's the case, trade her in a package for something you'll actually use. Yes she's inexperienced and makes mistakes. But she's 250 pounds and runs the floor ridiculously well at that size. She's got enough talent to be a contributor someplace. If it's not in NY, then hey. We have other needs. Fill them.



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