RebKell's Junkie Boards

[J-Spoon]

[Shades]

I suppose you could take a "swing" at Alyssa Thomas, because you'd be dealing with Miller, but I find it hard to believe they'd deal her with Ogwumike likely out. They'll probably put Thomas at PF.

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Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned

[Michelle89]

[toad455]

No way Rodgers gets traded with Prince's health in question. I strongly believe she'll be starting at SG come May.

_________________
LET'S GO LIBERTY!!!!!!

Twitter: @TBRBWAY

[pilight]

[root_thing]

[Bob Lamm]

[NYL_WNBA_FAN]

Piph, as long as she is healthy (I believe in May 2017 she will be fine), is a better player than Rodgers, period. And she's a pretty good shooter in her own right. But she also can create her own shot and is a playmaker who helps other players get open shots. Not including the last two throwaway games of 2015, the Liberty were 17-5 with Prince. Rodgers is a terrific shooter, yes, and a solid player. But the Liberty are not a championship-caliber team, or all that close, with Rodgers as the second-best scorer on the team and that's not even open to debate. Besides a standstill 3 and defense, Piph is better at every other aspect of basketball, ball-handling, passing, shot creation, overall moves and scoring. Allen is also an excellent shooter, with to this point no counter moves for tight defense. Her one consistent move is one or two dribbles left followed by a jumper that nearly always misses when she shoots midrange off the dribble.

Now if you tell me that Rodgers is your third-best scorer and Allen is your fourth or fifth best, I can get with that line of thinking. Rodgers can be a third option on a championship-caliber ream. Allen still has untapped upside and Rodgers may too. What Piph gives you that Sugar or Allen never will, however, are the hops to create her own shot and finish consistently near the rim. Plus, they just extended Piph before last season ended, likely at the max. They probably didn't do it just to bring her off the bench.

So where does this leave us? I think the potential answers are very straightforward, though each is not simple. Realistically, I think there's only two options.

1) Piph and Rodgers play together in the backcourt. This means you have to figure out what to do with Wright and Boyd. But it gives you the 3 double-digit scorers you're going to need if you want to compete for a title. I'd be ok with Wright at SF but thinking back to what Bill said about her physical condition early last year, I don't know if she can handle the extra physicality she would have to deal with at the 3 spot.

2) You sign and trade Rodgers, possibly along with other assets, for a third big scorer at SF. And by big scorer that's exactly what I mean. You aren't winning a title without a third big scorer. No team has ever won a title with two double-digit scorers. That third scorer is what will open up the floor for the other two. Depending who the player is, it may not even matter all that much if it's a shooter or not. Angel McCoughtry opens up the floor for her teammates with penetrations. Granted that she is elite in that area. But still, the point remains what it is.

I wouldn't mind Christmas as a role player, but I wouldn't do it straight up for Sugar. And I wouldn't do it to make Christmas my team's third best scorer. Sugar is a better player than Christmas. And Christmas is not a creative enough offensive player to be used in that role. Now if you are telling me Christmas will be a role player you swing between the 2 and 3 spots off the bench I can get with that. While she scored well for Dallas last year, she doesn't fit the Libs' scheme all that well. She's not a slashing type who can score when the floor isn't spaced as wide as it is with Dallas with their high-tempo perimeter game. Her handle isn't very good. She's not a real creative scorer...which would be an issue with the way NY plays offense. Fewer touches early in the shot clock mean having to make more difficult shots if you get the ball later in the shot clock.

Alyssa Thomas is ok, but I feel like she is a player who only scores in a small variety of areas on the floor. I don't really love her defense either. She also isn't great at creating her own shot, and she can't shoot outside of 15 feet anyway. If I had to choose between Piph and Rodgers playing the 1 and 2 or trading Sugar for Thomas, I'd choose option 1 without so much as a second of hesitation. Rodgers is a more versatile offensive player than Thomas by a mile, she's better defensively and she has more upside.

But I do believe the Liberty are going to make a serious off-season run at drafting Diamond Deshields, and using their depth in order to attempt make it happen. While this is purely speculative, I think there's several reasons why the Libs will make an effort to go after her. And yes, I get that Tennessee basketball is down, I know DD has attitude questions and I know that she is raw.

But here's why I think the Libs will make a run at her:

-She's extremely athletic even by pro standards
-She would fit into their offensive scheme because she has ball-handling and passing skills
-She has the body-type to get bigger and stronger...wide shoulders and an upper body that should fill out further with age
-Laimbeer has had success with players who have had attitude questions

You look at these traits, and they all specify precisely what a Laimbeer-coached team is looking for. Furthermore, I think her college stats are misleading because her style of play is absolutely tailor-made for the wider-spaced pro game. You look at an Aerial Powers, who averaged 10 ppg in 19 mpg for Dallas. Then you look at Deshields. Powers has incredible hops and is a strong rebounder in addition to the scoring. Like Deshields, shooting isn't a primary strength. But DD is faster and a significantly better ball-handler and passer than Powers is right now.

Please note this does not mean I am saying the Liberty are going to acquire Diamond Deshields. What I am saying is this is exactly the type of player the Liberty need moving forward, when you look at the position need and the type of player in question. And they know it. I strongly, wholeheartedly believe they are going to make a major effort to acquire Deshields. One thing's for sure. They have quite a few young assets. Rodgers, Boyd, Allen, Zahui.

And they need a third dynamic player to go with Piph and Charles if they are to have any hope of competing for a title. You look at what LA and Minnesota bring to the table, and you have to say the Liberty need another dynamic and versatile player to get closer to that level. And they probably have the young assets to do it.

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The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.

[Shades]

Rodgers and Zahui for #1. Let's write this up.

Just think... you'd be getting #1 in 2017 for #10 in 2017 and a swap of third round picks in 2015 (I think). Quite a bargain.

SAN would get a decent post prospect plus another guard.

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Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned

[NYL_WNBA_FAN]

The one reservation I have about trading Zahui is that I don't like trading players before they reach their potential unless you get peak value. However, you have to give to get too.

How about Sugar, Zahui and NY 2018 #1 for SAS #1 and Danielle Robinson? The Libs would then have enormous flexibility to deal a guard, probably Boyd, for some post depth to fill Zahui's spot. Tina, Kiah and Swords wouldn't be enough.

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The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.

[NYL_WNBA_FAN]

[J-Spoon]

Wow root puts out a great argument for staying the course, and moving some of the youth (and shooters) into the starting line up as the main plan for improvement by spacing the floor better with the first unit and a vet bench to steady the ship, and I'm convinced. Then NYL_Wnba_Fan ups the ante on the boldest possible swing for the fences move (I've been contemplating/pushing) by offering our #2 option from last year and a young post who could blow up next season for Deshields (a player I love and think could be a superstar, but who others see as a problem, over rated, and possibly the biggest risk of a #1 pick since maybe LaToya Thomas) and I'm back at the reality of NY's situation which is, without another top talent star level player they'll never be more than good, and this kind of risky move might be the only way to accomplish getting next level talent, and that is a trade SA might really consider (I was trying to get it done with Rodgers and Swords). Which way to go, stay the course? Swing for the fences?

It brings me back to the same question I've had all off season, is the current roster good enough to win a championship if growth and health is maintained? I just don't know.

[NYL_WNBA_FAN]

Staying the course is only going to work if Piph and Rodgers share the backcourt. If that's the route the Libs choose, I'm ok with that. But that means you have to figure out what to do with Wright, Boyd and Zellous because your roster is going to be extremely crowded at the 1 and 2 positions. Having 3 consistent scorers is extremely important, so it's either get them both in there or make some moves. But I am also of the mindset that Piph will be ok by May, having shown flashes of her former self in September and being 17 months removed from her injury by the start of the 2017 season. Right now, she's still only at the 12 month mark. Full ACL recovery can take more in the 18 month range, If she's not healthier by February, maybe you assess the situation differently, but you're still on a slippery slope. To keep Rodgers you'll probably have to max her. You've already extended Piph, so that means you have a long-term commitment to her. If both players are extended and retained, you have to do it because both players will be starters, both now and beyond this year. If there's no chance that you want Piph as the long-term PG, then Rodgers has to go. The Libs were capped out early last season, and their only loss this year is Cash's less-than-max contract. I love Rodgers. But from a cap standpoint, it's cost-prohibitive to keep her along with Piph unless your plan is to start them both long-term. That's the bottom line.

I say this assuming Wright is still signed and not a free agent.

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The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.

[Shades]

I thought Allen was going to be the future for NYL. Everybody was so excited about her. Now if you already show signs that you want to bypass her as a starter, maybe she'll decide to move on. Hard to say though. She seems pretty easygoing.

I'm thinking DeShields is an overly ambition target before she even steps on the WNBA court. Like with Zahui, you'll probably have to hope she has a disappointing rookie year and then swoop in on the cheap.

You could probably get Holmes for cheaper, but why ATL would want to let her go.... I dunno.

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Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned

[root_thing]

I'm not necessarily wedded to the idea of staying the course, but I don't see better options that appear realistic IMHO. If Prince can play PG, that's fine. People probably don't remember, but I always thought at the beginning of 2015 that she'd end up at PG. I also said at the time that Rodgers played much better as a starter, and that the best guard combination NY could put on the floor was Prince-Rodgers. This was before Rodgers became the player she is today. However, I'm just not convinced Prince will be the same. Being medically healthy and appearing to be fit is not the same as being basketball ready. We saw that with Carson, who looked fine in her last two seasons with NY, but didn't play that way. Whether it's a lack of explosiveness, a lack of confidence in her knee or actual erosion of skill, she wasn't the same. Now, we've talked about how injuries affect the athletically-based player more than the skill-based player, and Prince might be more of the latter. Nonetheless, she's looking rocky at the moment, and I wouldn't be making any deals until I was more convinced of her ability to perform.

Regarding DeShields, I think she is most dominant and best used at SG where she has a size advantage. I'm not convinced she's going to blow people away at SF. That's before we even get to the stuff about motivation and attitude. As far as Laimbeer handling troubled players, I'm not sure who the apt comparison would be. Braxton, Humphrey, and Schimmel had weight and conditioning issues. Braxton produced sporadic success but was ultimately booted in her last season with Laimbeer. Bill got just enough out of Humphrey so that he could trade her at mid-season, and then Tasha barely lasted another year in the league after that. Schimmel is still a question mark. So, I don't see any long-term successes there. Who else? Pierson was a hothead who had trouble getting along with people, but she didn't lack motivation on the court. DeShields seems to be more of a diva, which in itself isn't necessarily a problem. McCoughtry is a diva, but she's a competitive and motivated one. The scary thing about DeShields is that she's taking underachievement so well -- both her own and the team's. Compare that with Angel who pretty much carried her Louisville squad into the NCAA finals (along with Jeff Walz the mad scientist).

While having 3 big scorers is certainly the way to go if you can get it, Indiana only had Catchings in 2012. That finals starting line-up was Catchings, Larkins, Zellous, January and Phillips. Douglas was injured, and so was her backup, Jeannette Pohlen. The press played up the Catch finally gets her championship story, but to me the real MVP of that series was Larkins. She had 43 boards in the 3 wins, seemingly doing all of the rebounding by herself for a tiny line-up. Zellous had 30 points in Indiana's second win, and Phillips added 18 in the clincher. January was able to shut-down Augustus in the last two wins of the series. This was a championship accomplished mostly by non-stars. I'm not denying that having three stars is a big advantage or the norm, I'm just pointing out that it's been done with a lot less.

[NYL_WNBA_FAN]

The difference between having Catchings as your top player and Charles is that Catchings was dictating the flow of the game from a standpoint of ball-handling and passing. She could play like a guard. Charles is an excellent passer, but she needs other players to get her the ball first. And then you also had players like January, Z and Larkins who tend to elevate their play in clutch situations.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your basic premise though. Having Piph at the point along with Rodgers and Allen is a lot of offense. However, anytime in the last 2 seasons that Cash and Wright weren't in the starting lineup, the team has gone from top 3 to below average. The wins and losses bear that out. Having lineups that don't include either player mean that the way the team wins games is going to have to be very different. Allen is going to have to rebound, play consistent defense and penetrate if she is going to be on the court consistently. Deshields may be too ambitious, but I'd be willing to bet internally that the Liberty are going to make her their number 1 off-season target. I don't think she will dominate at SF right from the start, but she'll be a solid starter there from day 1, with a body-type that can add muscle and grow into the position. Whether they can get her or not is a totally different matter. Maybe they can't and this whole discussion is pointless. In which case you're either using Sugar to get another player or you're keeping Piph and Sugar together. I think it's a lineup that can work and be successful, but I also think you're looking at a major leadership and chemistry transition. Boyd played fairly well in Wright's absence, but as a team, the Liberty didn't run offense as well as they did when Wright was the starter. So if Piph and Rodgers comprise the backcourt, you have a lot of decisions to make and a lot of moves that potentially alter the chemistry and the leadership structure of the team.

Also to be considered, Minnesota has size and strength on the wings along with a 6'6" force in the middle. LA has unparalleled length and athleticism, even though they don't dominate games with sheer size most of the time. To match up better with these teams, the Liberty have to feature more of one or the other. Since nobody in WNBA history matches Augustus and Maya in terms of size and strength on the wings, that leaves option number 2 as the most viable one. Whoever it is that they acquire should get them closer to that goal, if the idea is to legitimately upgrade the 3 spot.

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The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.

[toad455]

can we stop talking about trading Sugar? If Prince gets injured again, we only have Charles as a scorer. Even trading Sugar for an legit SF doesn't sit well with me. I think our best bet at a SF is in free agency.

_________________
LET'S GO LIBERTY!!!!!!

Twitter: @TBRBWAY

[NYL_WNBA_FAN]

If we keep Rodgers we probably aren't going to have cap space for a SF, unless I am missing something. Trust me, if the cap wasn't a consideration, I would not be pushing some of these potential moves so much.

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The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.

[toad455]

I believe Zellous was only under a one year deal. We let Zellous go and bring in a SF. That should settle our cap issue.

_________________
LET'S GO LIBERTY!!!!!!

Twitter: @TBRBWAY

[NYL_WNBA_FAN]

I had assumed it was longer. That would settle it I suppose. Is there a SF worthy of playing 25+ minutes who is attainable as a free agent? Is Christmas a free agent? If you could get her for nothing I would certainly be happy with that. As a fourth scorer she would fit in nicely. I just don't want her as a top-3 because I don't think she would average double digits in the Libs' offense. 4th best? I'll take that. Let her rebound, be physical and make open shots in her role.

Though I still wonder where these scenarios leave Wright and Boyd. Or how the Liberty feel about making Piph a PG moving forward. If you retain Rodgers, you aren't just making a one-year commitment to these scenarios. You're saying for the next several seasons that you expect Piph and Rodgers to be your backcourt. Unless Piph's extension is a shorter "show us you're healthy" type of situation. Even so, any commitment to Piph as a PG also equates to Boyd not having an opportunity to start moving forward.

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The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.

[NYL_WNBA_FAN]

Looking up Piph's stats from 2014-15 in Russia. 9.7 ppg, 3.3 apg. This year 7.9 ppg with a decent shooting percentage and 2.3 apg. She's almost 12 months removed from the ACL which is a little early yet. These numbers aren't that far removed from 2 years ago, and she is playing with Angel now which can make it tougher for any player to find her own shots.

9 months removed from the ACL in September she had 12 points in 16 minutes on 4-8 shooting in a playoff game. As long as she doesn't re-injure it, I think she'll be fine in May.

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The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.

[root_thing]

[przemoe]

Newsflash about two of your girls play(ed) in Poland:

Boyd just a week ago got thrown away from CCC Polkowice after just 3 games (lost all three by avg 19.3pts, 4-1 record before) - averaging 9.3ppg (8/34FG), 5as, 2.6to - dunno if that was that 23%FG or other issues (attitude?), but still it's not a typical thing to send home your starting PG like that.

Swords on the other hand is reigning in Gdynia, averaging 13.1pts, 11.9rb in TBLK.

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Regards,
Przemek

http://www.bigdynia.pl - Basket Gdynia

[Jet Jaguar]

[root_thing]

Yeah, I mentioned in one of my posts that Boyd wasn't shooting well and that she disappeared from the box score for the last two games. I'm not really concerned as long as she's healthy and her ATO is somewhere near 2, which it was (1.9). Maybe the team dumped her, maybe she quit -- who knows? It could be a bad system fit, a clash of personalities, financial issues or simple homesickness. Boyd was injured last winter, so this is her first time overseas. We already knew Brittany is up and down when it comes to making baskets. It's clearly the area where she needs improvement. While it would be nice if Boyd could develop a reliable jump-shot, right now I'd settle for her hitting lay-ups. She beats people off the dribble enough so that she could average 10 ppg just by making 50% of her lay-ups and 70% of free throws. Combine that with an ATO of 2 (2.1 for the last 19 games of 2016), plus the havoc she wreaks on defense, and I'd be happy to give her a lot more minutes -- starter or not.

Edit: OK, I guess I should've done my homework first. Boyd is at 48% for shots inside 5 ft, so it's better than I thought. What happens is she has a bunch of bad games and then a great one, which offsets the bad somewhat. Meanwhile, her accuracy beyond 5 ft is worse than I expected (26%). I guess I should hope she hits about two-thirds of her lay-ups.