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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 02/10/17 6:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There's still a disconnect somewhere in how a team can start three All-WNBA players, Clark who we all basically love as a role player, and a former all-star who hasn't dropped off that much in Langhorne, and still finish under .500. Something there wasn't as good as people perceived it to be last season. A crappy bench can only hurt you so much.



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Michelle89



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PostPosted: 02/10/17 6:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
There's still a disconnect somewhere in how a team can start three All-WNBA players, Clark who we all basically love as a role player, and a former all-star who hasn't dropped off that much in Langhorne, and still finish under .500. Something there wasn't as good as people perceived it to be last season. A crappy bench can only hurt you so much.


Langhorne averaged 9,5 pts last season. Thats a dropoff to me. Combine that with a bad offensive output from your bench and all the pressure falls on Stewart, Loyd and Bird to do all the heavy lifting on the offense.

But the biggest problem to me was the poor post defense. Playing Stewart and Langhorne together for most of the time just doesnt work on the defensive side. Langhorne is a very soft defender and her rebounding has dropped off. Tbh she might be one of the weakest defenders at the post (starting players) positions. She just doesnt put a body on opponents at all.

Having Swords off the bench allows Stewart to take more of a break on defense and have her defend PF's when Swords is in. She blocks out better then Langhorne and just takes up more space to protect the paint.

2nd biggest problem that the Storm had last season was turnovers. I think they averaged almost the most turnovers in the league? I have never seen so many passes into the crowd or to opponents. Like so many silly mistakes, lack of focus etc. Hopefully we will clean that up this season..



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Last edited by Michelle89 on 02/10/17 7:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
Nerd2



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PostPosted: 02/10/17 6:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
There's still a disconnect somewhere in how a team can start three All-WNBA players, Clark who we all basically love as a role player, and a former all-star who hasn't dropped off that much in Langhorne, and still finish under .500. Something there wasn't as good as people perceived it to be last season. A crappy bench can only hurt you so much.


Give me a break. Two thirds of the league finished around .500. It took half the year to really get all the pieces working together smoothly since two of those players had 1 year and 0 years in the league. Remember that they were not expected to make the playoffs and it took a 7-3 finish to the season to move them into the playoffs.


myrtle



Joined: 02 May 2008
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PostPosted: 02/10/17 7:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:


But the biggest problem to me was the poor post defense. Playing Stewart and Langhorne together for most of the time just doesnt work on the defensive side. Langhorne is a very soft defender and her rebounding has dropped off. Tbh she might be one of the weakest defenders at the post (starting players) positions. She just doesnt put a body on opponents at all.



Agree with this. the post defense was definitely a big weakness.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 02/10/17 8:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:


But the biggest problem to me was the poor post defense. Playing Stewart and Langhorne together for most of the time just doesnt work on the defensive side. Langhorne is a very soft defender and her rebounding has dropped off. Tbh she might be one of the weakest defenders at the post (starting players) positions. She just doesnt put a body on opponents at all.



Agree with this. the post defense was definitely a big weakness.


Langhorne isn't a center. It was surprising when Seattle resigned her.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 02/10/17 8:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:


But the biggest problem to me was the poor post defense. Playing Stewart and Langhorne together for most of the time just doesnt work on the defensive side. Langhorne is a very soft defender and her rebounding has dropped off. Tbh she might be one of the weakest defenders at the post (starting players) positions. She just doesnt put a body on opponents at all.



Agree with this. the post defense was definitely a big weakness.

Stewart's pretty good defensively, better than either Meesseman or Delle Donne.



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 02/10/17 9:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
myrtle wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:


But the biggest problem to me was the poor post defense. Playing Stewart and Langhorne together for most of the time just doesnt work on the defensive side. Langhorne is a very soft defender and her rebounding has dropped off. Tbh she might be one of the weakest defenders at the post (starting players) positions. She just doesnt put a body on opponents at all.



Agree with this. the post defense was definitely a big weakness.

Stewart's pretty good defensively, better than either Meesseman or Delle Donne.


true. but definitely not a banger...which is what they have lacked - a starting banger center.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 02/10/17 10:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
Shades wrote:
myrtle wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:


But the biggest problem to me was the poor post defense. Playing Stewart and Langhorne together for most of the time just doesnt work on the defensive side. Langhorne is a very soft defender and her rebounding has dropped off. Tbh she might be one of the weakest defenders at the post (starting players) positions. She just doesnt put a body on opponents at all.



Agree with this. the post defense was definitely a big weakness.

Stewart's pretty good defensively, better than either Meesseman or Delle Donne.


true. but definitely not a banger...which is what they have lacked - a starting banger center.


I would probably switch it around and start Swords alongside Stewart, similar to how it worked in NY. Let Swords do the rim protection and banging, let Stewart do the scoring and defend the smaller of the two posts. Bring Langhorne in for Stewart to continue the scoring at the PF spot, and/or bring Langhorne in for Swords with Stewart on the floor when the other team is smaller, or playing their second string center.


Nerd2



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PostPosted: 02/10/17 10:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
myrtle wrote:
Shades wrote:
myrtle wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:


But the biggest problem to me was the poor post defense. Playing Stewart and Langhorne together for most of the time just doesnt work on the defensive side. Langhorne is a very soft defender and her rebounding has dropped off. Tbh she might be one of the weakest defenders at the post (starting players) positions. She just doesnt put a body on opponents at all.



Agree with this. the post defense was definitely a big weakness.

Stewart's pretty good defensively, better than either Meesseman or Delle Donne.


true. but definitely not a banger...which is what they have lacked - a starting banger center.


I would probably switch it around and start Swords alongside Stewart, similar to how it worked in NY. Let Swords do the rim protection and banging, let Stewart do the scoring and defend the smaller of the two posts. Bring Langhorne in for Stewart to continue the scoring at the PF spot, and/or bring Langhorne in for Swords with Stewart on the floor when the other team is smaller, or playing their second string center.


Don't forget Taku.


Michelle89



Joined: 17 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: 02/11/17 4:33 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:
myrtle wrote:
Shades wrote:
myrtle wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:


But the biggest problem to me was the poor post defense. Playing Stewart and Langhorne together for most of the time just doesnt work on the defensive side. Langhorne is a very soft defender and her rebounding has dropped off. Tbh she might be one of the weakest defenders at the post (starting players) positions. She just doesnt put a body on opponents at all.



Agree with this. the post defense was definitely a big weakness.

Stewart's pretty good defensively, better than either Meesseman or Delle Donne.


true. but definitely not a banger...which is what they have lacked - a starting banger center.


I would probably switch it around and start Swords alongside Stewart, similar to how it worked in NY. Let Swords do the rim protection and banging, let Stewart do the scoring and defend the smaller of the two posts. Bring Langhorne in for Stewart to continue the scoring at the PF spot, and/or bring Langhorne in for Swords with Stewart on the floor when the other team is smaller, or playing their second string center.


Don't forget Taku.


Yeah thats why i think they are gonna keep starting Langhorne and have Swords and Taku off the bench. But with Swords at center they can keep Langhorne s minutes down IMO 20-25 min



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Nerd2



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PostPosted: 02/11/17 4:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:


Yeah thats why i think they are gonna keep starting Langhorne and have Swords and Taku off the bench. But with Swords at center they can keep Langhorne s minutes down IMO 20-25 min


I would be mad as hell if all we had to show for that trade was a player who does not protect Stewart from bruises in the paint. Fans already think we got fleeced in the Wright-for-Monty trade. If Swords doesn't get minutes the grumbling will start again.


Rachel_1511



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PostPosted: 02/12/17 7:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Going to be interesting to see how Whitcomb's minutes effect O'Hea's ... while Jenna might get the more vet status to begin with, I think ultimately, unless she takes her game to another level, Sami will be bumping her down the bench, as she is, IMHO, faster and more creative. Though their games are quite similar - so it will be a nice headache for the coaches to have!


Nerd2



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PostPosted: 02/12/17 8:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Rachel_1511 wrote:
Going to be interesting to see how Whitcomb's minutes effect O'Hea's ... while Jenna might get the more vet status to begin with, I think ultimately, unless she takes her game to another level, Sami will be bumping her down the bench, as she is, IMHO, faster and more creative. Though their games are quite similar - so it will be a nice headache for the coaches to have!


Jenna practically got no minutes already as they used KML instead. Jenna became more of a defensive specialist. It'll be interesting to see how Sami can defend.


Rachel_1511



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PostPosted: 02/12/17 8:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:
Jenna practically got no minutes already as they used KML instead. Jenna became more of a defensive specialist. It'll be interesting to see how Sami can defend.


Ohh ok thanks, good points, and that changes things a bit then! not as direct competition as I imagined then!
From the (limited in person) I have seen, not in defensive specialist category, but solid enough! Perth as a team are big on the full court pressure at times, so certainly up there for hussle and high energy ... leading the league in steals too! Smile


Michelle89



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PostPosted: 02/13/17 5:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:
Rachel_1511 wrote:
Going to be interesting to see how Whitcomb's minutes effect O'Hea's ... while Jenna might get the more vet status to begin with, I think ultimately, unless she takes her game to another level, Sami will be bumping her down the bench, as she is, IMHO, faster and more creative. Though their games are quite similar - so it will be a nice headache for the coaches to have!


Jenna practically got no minutes already as they used KML instead. Jenna became more of a defensive specialist. It'll be interesting to see how Sami can defend.


I hope to see a healthy Jenna back in the rotation as a backup to Alysha Clark(SF spot). When Sue goes to the bench, have Loyd bring up the ball and let Sami and KML fight for minutes at that backup SG position



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Luuuc
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PostPosted: 02/13/17 5:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
Nerd2 wrote:
Rachel_1511 wrote:
Going to be interesting to see how Whitcomb's minutes effect O'Hea's ... while Jenna might get the more vet status to begin with, I think ultimately, unless she takes her game to another level, Sami will be bumping her down the bench, as she is, IMHO, faster and more creative. Though their games are quite similar - so it will be a nice headache for the coaches to have!


Jenna practically got no minutes already as they used KML instead. Jenna became more of a defensive specialist. It'll be interesting to see how Sami can defend.


I hope to see a healthy Jenna back in the rotation as a backup to Alysha Clark(SF spot). When Sue goes to the bench, have Loyd bring up the ball and let Sami and KML fight for minutes at that backup SG position


Yes, Whitcomb and O'Hea are definitely not competing for the same minutes. Sami is strictly a guard. She can defend though, don't worry about that. Put her on the floor and just wait for what should be EASY D!



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Nerd2



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PostPosted: 02/13/17 3:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
Nerd2 wrote:
Rachel_1511 wrote:
Going to be interesting to see how Whitcomb's minutes effect O'Hea's ... while Jenna might get the more vet status to begin with, I think ultimately, unless she takes her game to another level, Sami will be bumping her down the bench, as she is, IMHO, faster and more creative. Though their games are quite similar - so it will be a nice headache for the coaches to have!


Jenna practically got no minutes already as they used KML instead. Jenna became more of a defensive specialist. It'll be interesting to see how Sami can defend.


I hope to see a healthy Jenna back in the rotation as a backup to Alysha Clark(SF spot). When Sue goes to the bench, have Loyd bring up the ball and let Sami and KML fight for minutes at that backup SG position


Really hoping this is what we get as well. I think it's 50-50 as to whether Abby Bishop will choose to come over and if she doesn't perhaps Greene will fit there.


Rachel_1511



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PostPosted: 02/15/17 7:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Thanks all, some good points and food for thought!

O'Hea as a back up to Clark ... I just don't know where O'Hea is injury or form wise -- but if she can do that, all power to her!


canadaball



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PostPosted: 02/19/17 12:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
There's still a disconnect somewhere in how a team can start three All-WNBA players, Clark who we all basically love as a role player, and a former all-star who hasn't dropped off that much in Langhorne, and still finish under .500. Something there wasn't as good as people perceived it to be last season. A crappy bench can only hurt you so much.


Ever since the memorable (?disgraceful) 2015 tank, I have watched Seattle closely, and am quite happy that despite 3 All Stars, the team sucks. The management is good at losing games to get the most lottery balls; not so good at putting together a winning team. Last year's team had 3 major weaknesses: (1) lack of athleticism (especially Clarke and Langhorne) which led to poor rebounding and defense; (2) No effective guards past Bird and Loyd; (3) the worst bench in league characterized by a bunch of players with no speed who cannot jump. Seattle desperately needs blue collar players who will do the dirty work. The Clarke story is wonderful, but she does not have the skill set to play 25-30 minutes at the 3 (with no one behind her to boot). Clarke works so hard, and plays smart but she is way overmatched against the better small forwards. This smart, hustling kid just does not jump.
Carolyn Swords seems like a good pickup to give the team more size in the paint, but when u need major minutes from Clarke, Quinn (would not be on any other roster) and KML (aka "Stumpy") the team is destined for mediocrity despite the presence of 3 of the top 20 players in the league.
Do not forget that last year's team was 100% healthy all year (when so many opponents were devastated by injury), yet still finished below .500. Given the ticking clock on Bird, (at 35 she had best year ever, but who knows about 36?) it is far more likely this team is on the way down, rather than becoming a title contender.


Nerd2



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PostPosted: 02/19/17 1:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

canadaball wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
There's still a disconnect somewhere in how a team can start three All-WNBA players, Clark who we all basically love as a role player, and a former all-star who hasn't dropped off that much in Langhorne, and still finish under .500. Something there wasn't as good as people perceived it to be last season. A crappy bench can only hurt you so much.


Ever since the memorable (?disgraceful) 2015 tank, I have watched Seattle closely, and am quite happy that despite 3 All Stars, the team sucks. The management is good at losing games to get the most lottery balls; not so good at putting together a winning team. Last year's team had 3 major weaknesses: (1) lack of athleticism (especially Clarke and Langhorne) which led to poor rebounding and defense; (2) No effective guards past Bird and Loyd; (3) the worst bench in league characterized by a bunch of players with no speed who cannot jump. Seattle desperately needs blue collar players who will do the dirty work. The Clarke story is wonderful, but she does not have the skill set to play 25-30 minutes at the 3 (with no one behind her to boot). Clarke works so hard, and plays smart but she is way overmatched against the better small forwards. This smart, hustling kid just does not jump.
Carolyn Swords seems like a good pickup to give the team more size in the paint, but when u need major minutes from Clarke, Quinn (would not be on any other roster) and KML (aka "Stumpy") the team is destined for mediocrity despite the presence of 3 of the top 20 players in the league.
Do not forget that last year's team was 100% healthy all year (when so many opponents were devastated by injury), yet still finished below .500. Given the ticking clock on Bird, (at 35 she had best year ever, but who knows about 36?) it is far more likely this team is on the way down, rather than becoming a title contender.


I did not find what they did to be disgraceful. They needed to get rid of Camille Little and Tanisha Wright, two players who were nasty as heck to a good portion of the fans and unwilling to do what it took to bring along younger players. And I will say it again: Sue Bird would have been G-O-N-E if it hadn't been for what they did in 2015. Storm were old. They needed to get young. That was a painful process.

The team decided to rebuild. They said it would take three years. They played all their players the vast majority of the season and only sat the starters the last couple of games after they had been eliminated. You consider that "tanking" but I don't. Certainly not the Lynx who basically had Maya not even make the trip for their last game. And not the Stars who had Moriah AND Kayla AND DRob all sitting that last game.

There were twelve teams. 3 of them finished above .500. And one who did blew it in their first playoff game against the lowest seed. Phoenix was ALSO 100% healthy, had the people back from its 2014 title run and actually ended up worse than the Storm.


tfan



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PostPosted: 02/19/17 5:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:

I did not find what they did to be disgraceful. They needed to get rid of Camille Little and Tanisha Wright, two players who were nasty as heck to a good portion of the fans.


How were they nasty to fans?


Michelle89



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PostPosted: 02/19/17 5:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Nerd2 wrote:

I did not find what they did to be disgraceful. They needed to get rid of Camille Little and Tanisha Wright, two players who were nasty as heck to a good portion of the fans.


How were they nasty to fans?


Yesw i want to know aswell. I never heard any bad things about those 2 at all. Loved them both on the team. 2 players that gave it their absolute all every minute that they were on the floor.



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Nerd2



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PostPosted: 02/19/17 6:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Nerd2 wrote:

I did not find what they did to be disgraceful. They needed to get rid of Camille Little and Tanisha Wright, two players who were nasty as heck to a good portion of the fans.


How were they nasty to fans?


Both of them didn't really like the fan meet and greets and were sometimes rather short with fans. Tanisha was heard to say to Ashley Robinson how she couldn't understand why she ever wanted to talk to fans. And any autograph signing was grudging. They always gave their all on the court for sure but between them and LJ's total shyness they were somewhat unapproachable.


myrtle



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PostPosted: 02/19/17 11:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Langhorne is undersized to play the 5 and doesn't have the skill to play the 4. They have tried to remedy it with Swords. Swords can't guard quickness but Lang can and Lang can't guard size ...so the addition should help if they are used in the right circumstances, but neither of them - nor Stewie - can guard bruisers so that will remain a problem.

I don't think Clark is the problem. Yeah, she's not as good as Maya or Angel, but who is? You can't have an allstar at every position and she fulfills her role much better than most role players. I actually think they underutilize her offense. Of the three shooters, she had the least attempts but second best (behind Birdie) percentage. At 39% she is way better than Stewie (34%) or Loyd (30%) (and BTW, better than KML, the designated 3 shooter, as well). Why have Loyd hoisting all those threes? Use her for what she is good at - slashing and mid-range jumpers. So... it seems to me they need to better utilize what they have, including the allstars. For that matter, I thought Stewie settled for the three shot too often as well. She needs to shoot it enough, and well enough, for teams to have to guard her out there, but 2 (or 3 at most) a game should be her max.

But you do need some bench help. Was O'Hea injured? I always think she is better than what she showed last year. Tak is an interesting backup for Stewie but essentially has no defense. KML can be effective if left wide open, which some teams continue to do. Anybody know what is up with Monica Wright? Is she just done? She was a player who looked to have promise before the injury. And they still need some kind of banger inside - if for nothing else to go in and get some fouls. I don't remember Green as being a banger. (?) And of course a backup PG to give Birdie a rest. No, Loyd is not a PG. Quinn is a sweetheart, but a marginal, at best, PG.

JMO, of course, no insider information.



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canadaball



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PostPosted: 02/19/17 1:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:
canadaball wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
There's still a disconnect somewhere in how a team can start three All-WNBA players, Clark who we all basically love as a role player, and a former all-star who hasn't dropped off that much in Langhorne, and still finish under .500. Something there wasn't as good as people perceived it to be last season. A crappy bench can only hurt you so much.


Ever since the memorable (?disgraceful) 2015 tank, I have watched Seattle closely, and am quite happy that despite 3 All Stars, the team sucks. The management is good at losing games to get the most lottery balls; not so good at putting together a winning team. Last year's team had 3 major weaknesses: (1) lack of athleticism (especially Clarke and Langhorne) which led to poor rebounding and defense; (2) No effective guards past Bird and Loyd; (3) the worst bench in league characterized by a bunch of players with no speed who cannot jump. Seattle desperately needs blue collar players who will do the dirty work. The Clarke story is wonderful, but she does not have the skill set to play 25-30 minutes at the 3 (with no one behind her to boot). Clarke works so hard, and plays smart but she is way overmatched against the better small forwards. This smart, hustling kid just does not jump.
Carolyn Swords seems like a good pickup to give the team more size in the paint, but when u need major minutes from Clarke, Quinn (would not be on any other roster) and KML (aka "Stumpy") the team is destined for mediocrity despite the presence of 3 of the top 20 players in the league.
Do not forget that last year's team was 100% healthy all year (when so many opponents were devastated by injury), yet still finished below .500. Given the ticking clock on Bird, (at 35 she had best year ever, but who knows about 36?) it is far more likely this team is on the way down, rather than becoming a title contender.


I did not find what they did to be disgraceful. They needed to get rid of Camille Little and Tanisha Wright, two players who were nasty as heck to a good portion of the fans and unwilling to do what it took to bring along younger players. And I will say it again: Sue Bird would have been G-O-N-E if it hadn't been for what they did in 2015. Storm were old. They needed to get young. That was a painful process.

The team decided to rebuild. They said it would take three years. They played all their players the vast majority of the season and only sat the starters the last couple of games after they had been eliminated. You consider that "tanking" but I don't. Certainly not the Lynx who basically had Maya not even make the trip for their last game. And not the Stars who had Moriah AND Kayla AND DRob all sitting that last game.

There were twelve teams. 3 of them finished above .500. And one who did blew it in their first playoff game against the lowest seed. Phoenix was ALSO 100% healthy, had the people back from its 2014 title run and actually ended up worse than the Storm.


There are several inaccuracies here. Little, and, especially, Tanisha Wright are just the type players that the current roster needs to be title contenders. In 2015, Seattle most certainly did not just sit "the starters the last couple of games". Sue Bird, in particular was held out of the final 6 games (the box score kept listing the reason as "rest"). I wondered what they would do for the last game (hard to rest for the off season), but they did switch to "coach's decision". Do not compare resting a star like Maya at the end of regular season when playoff position is clinched to the Storm shenanigans. In the case of SA, you are way off base. Jefferson was not on team in 2015. McBride and DRob had legitimate injuries; in fact, in that last game SA was down 9 at the half; in perfect position to get the pole position for Stewie. For some unknown reason, lame duck coach Hughes chose to play his starters the entire 3rd quarter while Seattle, true to their total tank philosophy, only used their bottom 5 players.
I neglected to list another Storm weakness. The team lacks any real muscle, and might be softest roster in league. No bangers here.


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