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myt
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jammerbirdi
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 Posted: 07/11/16 8:44 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Yes, black people are far more likely to be the victims of violent crime than other ethnic groups. Yes, black people are far more likely than others to be arrested and convicted of crimes. And yes, black people are far more likely to be confronted by police than anyone else. I cannot fathom how any of this is news to you. |
...fatal police shootings make up a much larger proportion of white and Hispanic homicide deaths than black homicide deaths. According to the Post database, in 2015 officers killed 662 whites and Hispanics, and 258 blacks. (The overwhelming majority of all those police-shooting victims were attacking the officer, often with a gun.) Using the 2014 homicide numbers as an approximation of 2015s, those 662 white and Hispanic victims of police shootings would make up 12% of all white and Hispanic homicide deaths. That is three times the proportion of black deaths that result from police shootings.
Your response perplexes me. What about this?
Police officersof all racesare also disproportionately endangered by black assailants. Over the past decade, according to FBI data, 40% of cop killers have been black. Officers are killed by blacks at a rate 2.5 times higher than the rate at which blacks are killed by police.
And why the funky tone? What am I doing wrong here?_________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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myt
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jammerbirdi
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pilight
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| Posted: 07/12/16 7:25 am ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Yes, black people are far more likely to be the victims of violent crime than other ethnic groups. Yes, black people are far more likely than others to be arrested and convicted of crimes. And yes, black people are far more likely to be confronted by police than anyone else. I cannot fathom how any of this is news to you. |
...fatal police shootings make up a much larger proportion of white and Hispanic homicide deaths than black homicide deaths. According to the Post database, in 2015 officers killed 662 whites and Hispanics, and 258 blacks. (The overwhelming majority of all those police-shooting victims were attacking the officer, often with a gun.) Using the 2014 homicide numbers as an approximation of 2015s, those 662 white and Hispanic victims of police shootings would make up 12% of all white and Hispanic homicide deaths. That is three times the proportion of black deaths that result from police shootings.
Your response perplexes me. What about this?
Police officersof all racesare also disproportionately endangered by black assailants. Over the past decade, according to FBI data, 40% of cop killers have been black. Officers are killed by blacks at a rate 2.5 times higher than the rate at which blacks are killed by police.
And why the funky tone? What am I doing wrong here? |
Trying to teach you remedial statistics is getting tiresome.
Police caused deaths make up a smaller proportion of black homicides than they do homicides of other races. This is an irrelevant comparison. The rate at which blacks are killed by non-police has no bearing on the rate at which they are killed by police. All it demonstrates is that blacks are disproportionately likely to be the victims of violent crime. If anything, that represents a failure by police forces to adequately protect black people from violent criminals.
Officers are killed by blacks at a rate 2.5 times higher than blacks are killed by officers. Here we suffer from a lack of context. Try this fill in the blank question: Officers are killed by people at a rate ____ times higher/lower than people are killed by officers. We don't know whether that 2.5 number is higher, lower, or the same as other races.
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myt
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| Posted: 07/12/16 7:53 am ::: |
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Michelle Alexander: Locked Out of the American Dream
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| After civil rights lawyer Michelle Alexander published her book The New Jim Crow in 2010 on our dehumanizing system of incarceration, she ignited a national conversation about justice in America and sparked a movement. In her book, Alexander explores how the war on drugs, "get-tough" sentencing policies and racism has created a caste system similar to that of our segregationist past. |
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myt
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| Posted: 07/12/16 7:59 am ::: |
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If the Catholic church said, only 2% of the priests molested children but they don't rid themselves of those individuals (and for years they didn't) they taint and build distrust within the communities in which they serve.
It doesn't matter that the 98 percent didn't "do it"; They became complicit when they allowed it to continue.
They represent "Word of God" to these communities so what does that say to their parish when they won't rid themselves of the unjust?
Police officers represent the first interaction with the justice system in the communities they server. What does it say when they won't rid themselves of the unjust?
Justice != (JustUS OR Unjust)_________________
| SuziQ wrote: |
| ima say this only once, and I'm never gonna say it again. Parker's damn good. |
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 07/12/16 9:02 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Yes, black people are far more likely to be the victims of violent crime than other ethnic groups. Yes, black people are far more likely than others to be arrested and convicted of crimes. And yes, black people are far more likely to be confronted by police than anyone else. I cannot fathom how any of this is news to you. |
...fatal police shootings make up a much larger proportion of white and Hispanic homicide deaths than black homicide deaths. According to the Post database, in 2015 officers killed 662 whites and Hispanics, and 258 blacks. (The overwhelming majority of all those police-shooting victims were attacking the officer, often with a gun.) Using the 2014 homicide numbers as an approximation of 2015s, those 662 white and Hispanic victims of police shootings would make up 12% of all white and Hispanic homicide deaths. That is three times the proportion of black deaths that result from police shootings.
Your response perplexes me. What about this?
Police officersof all racesare also disproportionately endangered by black assailants. Over the past decade, according to FBI data, 40% of cop killers have been black. Officers are killed by blacks at a rate 2.5 times higher than the rate at which blacks are killed by police.
And why the funky tone? What am I doing wrong here? |
Trying to teach you remedial statistics is getting tiresome.
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Thank you for the 1400 percent increase in your average key strokes per post. Greatly appreciated!_________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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luvDhoops
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| Posted: 07/12/16 1:40 pm ::: |
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I left this board a lonnnng time ago. I only logged in today because I saw where the Minnesota Lynx had the Black Lives Matter tees on and the police walked out and I was anxious to see what this community might have to say about it. Then I ran across this thread.
Theres an incredible amount of arrogance present to continually dismiss the grievances that the majority of a group of people have pled for generations to seep into the American consciousness. Literally generation after generation. Muhammad Ali, a man who just last month everyone from Faux News to other conservative outlets were praising calling an American Hero, the same man who if he were alive and still had his physical capacities wouldve been in the forefront of the Black Lives Matter movement. But of course, hes been silent for years now and a silent, non political Ali is palatable, so hes fine.
The issue of police harassment in black neighborhoods has been the subject of black expressions from the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and 2000s. Everyone from Marvin Gaye to Michael Jackson, to Public Enemy to Kendrick Lamar. Its spanned generations. There has to be an amazing amount of obtuseness present to say generations of people of color are just lying and overly emotional on one single issue. Its kind of amazing that for a number of my white associates, it took Donald Trump being nominated and the recordings of thousands of U.S. citizens cheering and celebrating his open bigotry for them to finally say wow, theres lots of racism still in this country, when people of color have been saying that exact thing for decades only to get a virtual pat on the head like a patronizing there, there little ones, calm down. I get it. Its the same thing done to women and the LGBT community generation after generation when they voice their complaints about often clandestine bigotry and discrimination hidden in plain sight. I guess thats why I thought if any place on earth would get it itd be this space.
Someone mentioned something about the Chicken and Egg and the Ferguson Effect. A couple weeks ago on my own Facebook page, I posted a report that came out about how terrorism had increased by 4500% ever since we began our War on Terror. Thats four thousand, five hundred freakin percent. Places like Iraq had never suffered a single suicide bombing before we went in to fight terrorism. Since then, Iraq has had a whopping 2,000 suicide bombings. Pakistan and of course Syria, all the same results. Creating the problem where the problem never existed.
Then I thought about the U.S. and our War on Drugs which began under Nixon and extended through Regan etc. etc. and how that war has ONLY played out in minority neighborhoods and how that war didnt stop drugs or drug abuse in this country. All it did was incarcerate thousands of black men, removing the capital from a community and began an ongoing cycle of poverty > poor education > crime > jail > poverty > poor education > crime > jail. Rinse and repeat. Generation after generation. And in essence sets up a permanent police state in the poor black neighborhoods. Sort of the same way, well be in Iraq and Afghanistan and Middle Eastern affairs for generations to come.
Theres a certain level of disregard present, for people to be able to show you the statistics of how Native Americans, Black Americans and Latino Americans (essentially all of the brown and black groups) are all disproportionately murdered by police at higher percentage rates even when White Americans comprise 70% of the U.S. population. To have someone see and hear all of this and still walk away with well, it must be something just wrong with all of those other people, is rather astounding. It wouldnt be surprising in other settings, but here, yes.
Im not really gonna stick around here. But I will say that theres a great quote from Martin Luther King Jr., that tons of conservatives and veiled racists love to omit when discussing the man. Thats where he says Riots (violence) is the language of the unheard. I think of the decades those in Middle Eastern nations have complained about U.S. occupancy, interference and backing of Israel in their conflicts and how with each generation of that not being addressed and us doubling down on our policies there, the language of the unheard grew more violent and more violent until were where we are now. We live in a country of 320 million citizens, where there are 300 million guns in circulation and its easier to get a gun than it is to buy cigarettes in many places. A country of a generation of disillusioned and desensitized to extreme violence and a number of extremist groups ready to exploit that. You do not want to continue to ignore and marginalize the experiences of these people. This could all go extremely bad very quickly with devastating effects for all of us.
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jammerbirdi
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| Posted: 07/12/16 3:02 pm ::: |
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So happy to see you back but we DISAGREE in this space. It isn't owned by one viewpoint even though it is the predominate viewpoint of the people who post here. I'm sure your comments are directed at me. My passionate opinions on this issue encompass everything from the outrage which I've always had at the unjustified killing of innocent citizens to acknowledgement that the police have an extremely dangerous job to the disgust at the tactics of BLM to the horror of children and black teens being killed in black neighborhoods by other blacks. It's all fucked up. It's not going to end well. It's going to end with cops killing more black people to restore order and bigger prisons. That's how this is going to end. The ONLY answer that exists takes generations and it involves transforming the education system and the prospects of future generations of black Americans. That's it. The larger horror here is always that brought to us as a society by criminals, murderers, drug dealers, and gang bangers. The police are paid to get in between the killers in black neighborhoods and their MANY many victims to track down killers and arrest them and to prevent when possible the proliferation of criminal activity. The job is extremely dangerous and requires aggression and aggressive tactics. And on and on it goes. "911, what's your emergency?" is how a lot of the most fraught interactions between black citizens and the police begins. You want the police to be your buddies if you live in a black high-crime area? They're not going to do that. They're a hammer. Criminal activity is a nail. It's ugly. The alternative, however, is chaos. It's third world murder rates. We do SUCH a disservice to everyone who lives in those neighborhoods by being unable to make the places where they live safe. A safe place to raise children. I'm angry that a black child was shot outside a liquor store this past weekend here in LA. I want a hammer to pound the mother fucker who did that into the ground. So welcome back. You can have the place._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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luvDhoops
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| Posted: 07/12/16 3:28 pm ::: |
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The "hammer"....
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| So happy to see you back but we DISAGREE in this space. It isn't owned by one viewpoint even though it is the predominate viewpoint of the people who post here. I'm sure your comments are directed at me. My passionate opinions on this issue encompass everything from the outrage which I've always had at the unjustified killing of innocent citizens to acknowledgement that the police have an extremely dangerous job to the disgust at the tactics of BLM to the horror of children and black teens being killed in black neighborhoods by other blacks. It's all fucked up. It's not going to end well. It's going to end with cops killing more black people to restore order and bigger prisons. That's how this is going to end. The ONLY answer that exists takes generations and it involves transforming the education system and the prospects of future generations of black Americans. That's it. The larger horror here is always that brought to us as a society by criminals, murderers, drug dealers, and gang bangers. The police are paid to get in between the killers in black neighborhoods and their MANY many victims to track down killers and arrest them and to prevent when possible the proliferation of criminal activity. The job is extremely dangerous and requires aggression and aggressive tactics. And on and on it goes. "911, what's your emergency?" is how a lot of the most fraught interactions between black citizens and the police begins. You want the police to be your buddies if you live in a black high-crime area? They're not going to do that. They're a hammer. Criminal activity is a nail. It's ugly. The alternative, however, is chaos. It's third world murder rates. We do SUCH a disservice to everyone who lives in those neighborhoods by being unable to make the places where they live safe. A safe place to raise children. I'm angry that a black child was shot outside a liquor store this past weekend here in LA. I want a hammer to pound the mother fucker who did that into the ground. So welcome back. You can have the place. |
I honestly don't think you read anything I said.
| Quote: |
Someone mentioned something about the Chicken and Egg and the Ferguson Effect. A couple weeks ago on my own Facebook page, I posted a report that came out about how terrorism had increased by 4500% ever since we began our War on Terror. Thats four thousand, five hundred freakin percent. Places like Iraq had never suffered a single suicide bombing before we went in to fight terrorism. Since then, Iraq has had a whopping 2,000 suicide bombings. Pakistan and of course Syria, all the same results. Creating the problem where the problem never existed.
Then I thought about the U.S. and our War on Drugs which began under Nixon and extended through Regan etc. etc. and how that war has ONLY played out in minority neighborhoods and how that war didnt stop drugs or drug abuse in this country. All it did was incarcerate thousands of black men, removing the capital from a community and began an ongoing cycle of poverty > poor education > crime > jail > poverty > poor education > crime > jail. Rinse and repeat. Generation after generation. And in essence sets up a permanent police state in the poor black neighborhoods. Sort of the same way, well be in Iraq and Afghanistan and Middle Eastern affairs for generations to come. |
The U.S. hasn't lacked for examples in which it's used "the hammer" in world history, only to see how that approach has failed more times than it's won. All you do by not listening to the people, not taking a nuanced approach and just going in because you can with the biggest gun, biggest, baton and biggest voice is build more anger. People are telling the police and community what it needs. But all we get is "we need MORE policing" "MORE occupation". Great. Then don't be surprised when that doesn't go how you had in mind.
Meanwhile, Gov. of NC just signed into law that police bodycameras and dashboard cameras are no longer a matter for public record.
Enjoy your indifference.
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jammerbirdi
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| Posted: 07/12/16 3:43 pm ::: |
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| luvDhoops wrote: |
Enjoy your indifference. |
That's me alright. The personification of indifference. And don't I enjoy it?
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mercfan3
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norwester
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| Posted: 07/12/16 5:14 pm ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Yes, black people are far more likely to be the victims of violent crime than other ethnic groups. Yes, black people are far more likely than others to be arrested and convicted of crimes. And yes, black people are far more likely to be confronted by police than anyone else. I cannot fathom how any of this is news to you. |
...fatal police shootings make up a much larger proportion of white and Hispanic homicide deaths than black homicide deaths. According to the Post database, in 2015 officers killed 662 whites and Hispanics, and 258 blacks. (The overwhelming majority of all those police-shooting victims were attacking the officer, often with a gun.) Using the 2014 homicide numbers as an approximation of 2015s, those 662 white and Hispanic victims of police shootings would make up 12% of all white and Hispanic homicide deaths. That is three times the proportion of black deaths that result from police shootings.
Your response perplexes me. What about this?
Police officersof all racesare also disproportionately endangered by black assailants. Over the past decade, according to FBI data, 40% of cop killers have been black. Officers are killed by blacks at a rate 2.5 times higher than the rate at which blacks are killed by police.
And why the funky tone? What am I doing wrong here? |
Yeah, I'm with pilight. These statistics aren't very instructive or damning. There's no context. What does "rate" mean? It sounds like a very suspicious number to me.
*EXAMPLE; NUMBERS ARE NOT MEANT TO BE ACCURATE*:
Let's say in 100 confrontations between police and black citizens, 20 black citizens were killed by police. And in 3 out of 4 confrontations in which police were killed, the killer was black.  The rate at which blacks kill police is now almost 4x that at which police kill blacks!
That was just to illustrate how numbers can be skewed, and statistics twisted. They seem to mean something, but they actually don't. And it's a disturbing trend I'm seeing in the media-representing-the-establishment in a sort of knee jerk reaction to the Black Lives Matter and similar movements.
Similarly, the proportion paragraph..fatal police shootings accounting for more white and Hispanic deaths. Let's take the 662 whites and Hispanics killed, and 258 blacks killed last year. The author concludes that is 12% of the non-black homicides, whereas it's only 4% of the black homicides. Clearly the numbers are skewed by the number of black homicides per year. But that's pretty much the only conclusion I could draw, in my mind. I'm not a statistician, but I have some knowledge.
I could look at those same numbers, and conclude that, by population, blacks are "dying by cop" at a rate of more than double that of whites and Hispanics. Which tells an entirely different story!  As an aside, I think it's weird to group white and Hispanic victims together statistically, but that may be because of the demographic overlap.
I will admit that there is a dire problem with black-on-black crime in many of our major cities. LA is one of those areas, so perhaps that's where some of your perspective comes from, jammer, with that as an area of concern.
And I think you have a point that the police that have to go in and patrol those areas do have a view of minorities, specifically black minorities, that skew their perceptions.
But you seem to think that the solution to the problem is to lessen black on black crime, and that will lower the rate of black "death by cop", that one solution will lead to another, and meanwhile the deaths are horrible, but understandable.
And the majority of the rest of the opinions on this thread seem more of the mind that these are two separate issues. That police would kill more black citizens even in the absence of high rates of black on black crime.
I don't know enough about the distribution of cops killing blacks to know whether it's concentrated in areas where black on black crime is high, to know whether your point of view has more merit. But I feel like a lot of the phrases that you've used to explain your point have (probably inadvertently) mirrored those used by anti-black and other racist organizations, and that's certainly why I've reacted strongly to what you've written.
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justintyme
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pilight
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norwester
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| Posted: 07/13/16 12:06 am ::: |
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Interesting
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scullyfu
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| Posted: 07/13/16 8:47 am ::: |
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i fail to see anything nefarious in this separation. they did it with Palin, too. it is how they explain it, i believe.
btw, isn't there some FCC rule that if you give coverage to one candidate you need to give the other equal time and access? this may be a premature reading of the rule since he's not yet the veep candidate.
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norwester
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justintyme
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| Posted: 11/16/16 6:07 pm ::: |
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Officer Who Shot Philando Castile Charged With Manslaughter
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“No reasonable officer — knowing, seeing and hearing what Officer Yanez did at the time — would have used deadly force under these circumstances,” the Ramsey County attorney, John J. Choi, said.
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justintyme
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| Posted: 06/16/17 3:23 pm ::: |
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Officer found not guilty in the killing of Philando Castile.
Travesty of justice. If he can legally be allowed to kill a citizen under those circumstances, then I can't think of any circumstances where an officer could/would be held accountable. This should scare the crap out of everyone.
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GlennMacGrady
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| Posted: 06/16/17 6:10 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
Officer found not guilty in the killing of Philando Castile.
Travesty of justice. If he can legally be allowed to kill a citizen under those circumstances, then I can't think of any circumstances where an officer could/would be held accountable. This should scare the crap out of everyone. |
This was a routine self-defense case, although it involved a police officer who had legitimately pulled over a driver, who was by all accounts clearly stoned on marijuana.
In this case, the legal jury issue was whether the shooter (the policeman) had a reasonable belief and fear that a gun was being pulled on him. There was in fact a gun in the driver's pocket, which the policeman could see. The driver in fact reached for his pocket. The policeman then had to make an instantaneous decision. If he believed a gun was being drawn on him, he is entitled under self-defense law and police procedures to respond with equivalent force.
As Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes famously described the law of self-defense in a 1921 Supreme Court decision: “Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife. Therefore, in this Court, at least, it is not a condition of immunity that one in that situation should pause to consider whether a reasonable man might not think it possible to fly with safety or to disable his assailant rather than to kill him.”
The jury, which included two blacks, heard testimony that the policeman acted reasonably under the circumstances, used reasonable self-defense force, and unanimously acquitted the policeman.
There is nothing to fear from this routine application of settled law. The case got a lot of attention only because the victim's girlfriend narrated a self-serving video after the shooting had already occurred.
What we should fear is politicized or fame-seeking prosecutors who overreach in charges, and politicians, such as the Minnesota governor in this case, who make unsupported statements about racial animus before any evidence is even gathered.
Civics lesson: If you have a gun on your person when accosted by a police officer, you don't reach into your pockets. You immediately inform the officer that you have the gun before you reach anywhere and follow the police directions as to how to remove it. |
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I got unreasonably happy at a screen name appearing on a forum when I saw you posted. 