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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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 Posted: 01/16/16 4:54 pm ::: At midseason, which teams are the biggest disappointments? |
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I won't try to rank them but to start I'll throw out for consideration in no particular order
Oklahoma
Nebraska
Cal
Tennessee
Duke
LSU
Dayton
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NoDakSt
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 4929
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| Posted: 01/16/16 6:32 pm ::: |
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Duke
Tennessee
Cal
But Duke definitely
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 01/16/16 6:45 pm ::: |
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In the mids:
Marist
Princeton
Dayton
and sort of Gonzaga, who certainly isn't the dominant force in conference this year.
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Lillian Hidgepork
Joined: 26 Feb 2012
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Location: Down South
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| Posted: 01/18/16 11:32 pm ::: |
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1. Tennessee
2. Duke
3. Tennessee
4. Duke
5. Tie between Duke and Tennessee
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FollowtheCardinalRule
Joined: 12 Oct 2011
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Location: Denver
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| Posted: 01/18/16 11:54 pm ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
In the mids:
Marist
Princeton
Dayton
and sort of Gonzaga, who certainly isn't the dominant force in conference this year. |
Marist for sure, Princeton went and lost to Penn of all the teams. Did they not get the memo that you're not supposed to lose to your arch rival?
I'd also add to that I'm disappointed in the following
--Seton Hall went and lost three straight in conference.
--Liberty after giving Ohio State fits, isn't unbeaten in their conference.
--Middle Tennessee is definitely having a down year.
--Siena's quest to knock off the traditional powers in the MAAC took a huge blow with a loss to Rider.
--A year removed from being the class of the Missouri Valley with a win over Ohio State, Wichita State is 0-6 in conference play, and 3-14 overall. That's a rapid demise.
--California. Hello? Where are you? 1-5 in Pac-12 play is atrocious from the only program apart from Stanford to make a final four in the Pac-12 in recent years.
--Did anyone notice that the Jackrabbits lost to their arch rivals, and are no longer perfect in Summit League play? South Dakota reigns supreme in the Mount Rushmore State.
--Kenyon College lost to our arch rivals Denison 46-44 after beating DePauw--a team that has terrorized the NCAC for years.
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PickledGinger
Joined: 04 Oct 2013
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| Posted: 01/18/16 11:58 pm ::: |
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I still don't understand why people were expecting Cal to be so improved after losing 2 WNBA players to graduation. Slightly surprised by the losses to Arizona and Oregon, but they are soooo young.
Duke though...so much talent and no results. McCallie will not survuve missing the tournament, and shouldn't. She's had 9 seasons now and has never come close to replicating the elite status Duke enjoyed under Goestinkors.
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FS02
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 01/19/16 12:30 am ::: |
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| PickledGinger wrote: |
| I still don't understand why people were expecting Cal to be so improved after losing 2 WNBA players to graduation. Slightly surprised by the losses to Arizona and Oregon, but they are soooo young. |
People were expecting a program that's been on an upward trajectory for the last 8 years or so to continue that trend. It's so easy to call that, but obviously, sometimes it happens, and sometimes it doesn't. Everyone is trying to get better.
They lost two great players--but often when a program is really clicking that sort of thing seems not to matter. I still think it's too early to bury Cal for this year.
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greatgator
Joined: 20 Dec 2012
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| Posted: 01/19/16 7:46 am ::: |
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| PickledGinger wrote: |
Duke though...so much talent and no results. McCallie will not survuve missing the tournament, and shouldn't. She's had 9 seasons now and has never come close to replicating the elite status Duke enjoyed under Goestinkors. |
McCallie's contract runs through the 2018-2019 season.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 01/19/16 8:46 am ::: |
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| PickledGinger wrote: |
Duke though...so much talent and no results. McCallie will not survuve missing the tournament, and shouldn't. She's had 9 seasons now and has never come close to replicating the elite status Duke enjoyed under Goestinkors. |
Her NCAA tournament finishes have been 3rd round, 2nd round, 4th round, 4th round, 4th round, 4th round, 2nd round, 3rd round. Which is an average of round "3.25" over 8 years. Over her last 8 years Goestenkors had an average of round 4 (that is, she averaged getting to the Elite Eight). Is averaging a finish better than the Sweet Sixteen really "not even coming close" to averaging an Elite Eight?
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 01/19/16 10:29 am ::: |
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| FS02 wrote: |
| PickledGinger wrote: |
| I still don't understand why people were expecting Cal to be so improved after losing 2 WNBA players to graduation. Slightly surprised by the losses to Arizona and Oregon, but they are soooo young. |
People were expecting a program that's been on an upward trajectory for the last 8 years or so to continue that trend. It's so easy to call that, but obviously, sometimes it happens, and sometimes it doesn't. Everyone is trying to get better.
They lost two great players--but often when a program is really clicking that sort of thing seems not to matter. I still think it's too early to bury Cal for this year. |
The other issue at Cal is that two guards they were counting on -- junior Mercedes Jefflo as a starter and freshman Bre Cavanaugh as a reserve -- are no longer with the team. Jefflo was kicked off for unknown reasons and Cavanaugh got a concussion (by walking into a pole on campus), went home to New Jersey and now has transferred to Rutgers.
Both moves happened during the fall, and the Bears are desperately thin in the backcourt.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 01/19/16 11:04 am ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| PickledGinger wrote: |
Duke though...so much talent and no results. McCallie will not survuve missing the tournament, and shouldn't. She's had 9 seasons now and has never come close to replicating the elite status Duke enjoyed under Goestinkors. |
Her NCAA tournament finishes have been 3rd round, 2nd round, 4th round, 4th round, 4th round, 4th round, 2nd round, 3rd round. Which is an average of round "3.25" over 8 years. Over her last 8 years Goestenkors had an average of round 4 (that is, she averaged getting to the Elite Eight). Is averaging a finish better than the Sweet Sixteen really "not even coming close" to averaging an Elite Eight? |
And then when you consider a lot of her best players can't stay healthy, it's kinda hard to live up to those high expectations.
Duke is really young this year. Amber Henson is their oldest player, but she has dealt with a knee injury since arriving at Duke, undergoing six surgeries.
Junior Oderah Chidom is just now working her way back after being out a year with injury. http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=210594303&KEY=
The only senior (not counting Henson) is Mercedes Riggs, not a prominent player.
They have 6 freshmen: Gorecki, Salvadores, Primm, Suggs, Lambert, and Belton (a redshirt who only played 8 games last year before ACL..... another injury). These freshmen are mostly highly vaunted, but they're still freshmen and mostly guards. They need time to learn to play together. Everybody can't be the 2006 Maryland team.
Duke's Big Two is Stevens and Greenwell, both just sophomores. What I noticed about both of these players listening to the coach's radio show is that they are both really naturally reserved to the point of painfully so, not your great leadership types at this point. So you got this situation where your two top players aren't great leaders and then you have a bunch of freshmen. The team lacks on court leadership and experience.
So what I see a lot with the "disappointment" of teams is expectations that are too high which stems from a lack of awareness.
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Fighting Artichoke
Joined: 12 Dec 2012
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| Posted: 01/19/16 2:47 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| PickledGinger wrote: |
Duke though...so much talent and no results. McCallie will not survuve missing the tournament, and shouldn't. She's had 9 seasons now and has never come close to replicating the elite status Duke enjoyed under Goestinkors. |
Her NCAA tournament finishes have been 3rd round, 2nd round, 4th round, 4th round, 4th round, 4th round, 2nd round, 3rd round. Which is an average of round "3.25" over 8 years. Over her last 8 years Goestenkors had an average of round 4 (that is, she averaged getting to the Elite Eight). Is averaging a finish better than the Sweet Sixteen really "not even coming close" to averaging an Elite Eight? |
And then when you consider a lot of her best players can't stay healthy, it's kinda hard to live up to those high expectations.
Duke is really young this year. Amber Henson is their oldest player, but she has dealt with a knee injury since arriving at Duke, undergoing six surgeries.
Junior Oderah Chidom is just now working her way back after being out a year with injury. http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=210594303&KEY=
The only senior (not counting Henson) is Mercedes Riggs, not a prominent player.
They have 6 freshmen: Gorecki, Salvadores, Primm, Suggs, Lambert, and Belton (a redshirt who only played 8 games last year before ACL..... another injury). These freshmen are mostly highly vaunted, but they're still freshmen and mostly guards. They need time to learn to play together. Everybody can't be the 2006 Maryland team.
Duke's Big Two is Stevens and Greenwell, both just sophomores. What I noticed about both of these players listening to the coach's radio show is that they are both really naturally reserved to the point of painfully so, not your great leadership types at this point. So you got this situation where your two top players aren't great leaders and then you have a bunch of freshmen. The team lacks on court leadership and experience.
So what I see a lot with the "disappointment" of teams is expectations that are too high which stems from a lack of awareness. |
Being disappointed in Duke's performance seems very reasonable to me. Now you might want to categorize that as a lack of awareness by the posters, but even YOU thought that Duke's preseason ranking was too low.
http://boards.rebkell.net/viewtopic.php?t=85969 See the 4th post down:
"Notre Dame is a little too high. I'd put them at #6.
Duke is too low. They should be flirting with Top 10.
They're finally respecting Ohio St."
To date, Duke has not been flirting with the Top 10. (And ND at 3 looks pretty good, too.)
Last edited by Fighting Artichoke on 01/19/16 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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colt13
Joined: 25 Sep 2009
Posts: 616
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| Posted: 01/19/16 3:05 pm ::: |
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| FollowtheCardinalRule wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
In the mids:
Marist
Princeton
Dayton
and sort of Gonzaga, who certainly isn't the dominant force in conference this year. |
Marist for sure, Princeton went and lost to Penn of all the teams. Did they not get the memo that you're not supposed to lose to your arch rival?
I'd also add to that I'm disappointed in the following
--Seton Hall went and lost three straight in conference.
--Liberty after giving Ohio State fits, isn't unbeaten in their conference.
--Middle Tennessee is definitely having a down year.
--Siena's quest to knock off the traditional powers in the MAAC took a huge blow with a loss to Rider.
--A year removed from being the class of the Missouri Valley with a win over Ohio State, Wichita State is 0-6 in conference play, and 3-14 overall. That's a rapid demise.
--California. Hello? Where are you? 1-5 in Pac-12 play is atrocious from the only program apart from Stanford to make a final four in the Pac-12 in recent years.
--Did anyone notice that the Jackrabbits lost to their arch rivals, and are no longer perfect in Summit League play? South Dakota reigns supreme in the Mount Rushmore State.
--Kenyon College lost to our arch rivals Denison 46-44 after beating DePauw--a team that has terrorized the NCAC for years. |
I would take Liberty and SDSU off of this list. Liberty had a bad loss to Presbyterian, but still should come out of the conference and give a major a scare. Plus Rinniger is supposed to be back in Feb.
I am so high on the Summit that right now, I would pick a team to be in the Final Four.....of the WNIT. South Dakota and South Dakota State are good enough for the big dance. IUPUI has been a surprise, and despite the record, Omaha looks like they have a future-if Lange doesn't get poached for a bigger job.
Minor disappointment is FSU, as Bulgak seems to come up small in every game I watch. The other minor one is LSU. Didn't have high expectations, but they look worse than expected.
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PickledGinger
Joined: 04 Oct 2013
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| Posted: 01/19/16 3:31 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| PickledGinger wrote: |
Duke though...so much talent and no results. McCallie will not survuve missing the tournament, and shouldn't. She's had 9 seasons now and has never come close to replicating the elite status Duke enjoyed under Goestinkors. |
Her NCAA tournament finishes have been 3rd round, 2nd round, 4th round, 4th round, 4th round, 4th round, 2nd round, 3rd round. Which is an average of round "3.25" over 8 years. Over her last 8 years Goestenkors had an average of round 4 (that is, she averaged getting to the Elite Eight). Is averaging a finish better than the Sweet Sixteen really "not even coming close" to averaging an Elite Eight? |
Considering Goestinkors had 3 Final Four appearances during that time (and another the year before), yes it is that big of a difference to me. Their recruiting is still on point but she can't seem to coach up to her player's potential, IMO.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7841
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 01/19/16 4:17 pm ::: |
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| colt13 wrote: |
| FollowtheCardinalRule wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
In the mids:
Marist
Princeton
Dayton
and sort of Gonzaga, who certainly isn't the dominant force in conference this year. |
Marist for sure, Princeton went and lost to Penn of all the teams. Did they not get the memo that you're not supposed to lose to your arch rival?
I'd also add to that I'm disappointed in the following
--Seton Hall went and lost three straight in conference.
--Liberty after giving Ohio State fits, isn't unbeaten in their conference.
--Middle Tennessee is definitely having a down year.
--Siena's quest to knock off the traditional powers in the MAAC took a huge blow with a loss to Rider.
--A year removed from being the class of the Missouri Valley with a win over Ohio State, Wichita State is 0-6 in conference play, and 3-14 overall. That's a rapid demise.
--California. Hello? Where are you? 1-5 in Pac-12 play is atrocious from the only program apart from Stanford to make a final four in the Pac-12 in recent years.
--Did anyone notice that the Jackrabbits lost to their arch rivals, and are no longer perfect in Summit League play? South Dakota reigns supreme in the Mount Rushmore State.
--Kenyon College lost to our arch rivals Denison 46-44 after beating DePauw--a team that has terrorized the NCAC for years. |
I would take Liberty and SDSU off of this list. Liberty had a bad loss to Presbyterian, but still should come out of the conference and give a major a scare. Plus Rinniger is supposed to be back in Feb.
I am so high on the Summit that right now, I would pick a team to be in the Final Four.....of the WNIT. South Dakota and South Dakota State are good enough for the big dance. IUPUI has been a surprise, and despite the record, Omaha looks like they have a future-if Lange doesn't get poached for a bigger job.
Minor disappointment is FSU, as Bulgak seems to come up small in every game I watch. The other minor one is LSU. Didn't have high expectations, but they look worse than expected. |
Liberty is definitely not all that. They came up here to JMU and the Dukes handled them with ease (and JMU is not quite as good this year as they have been, although they're still pretty good).
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7372
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 01/21/16 7:53 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| PickledGinger wrote: |
Duke though...so much talent and no results. McCallie will not survuve missing the tournament, and shouldn't. She's had 9 seasons now and has never come close to replicating the elite status Duke enjoyed under Goestinkors. |
Her NCAA tournament finishes have been 3rd round, 2nd round, 4th round, 4th round, 4th round, 4th round, 2nd round, 3rd round. Which is an average of round "3.25" over 8 years. Over her last 8 years Goestenkors had an average of round 4 (that is, she averaged getting to the Elite Eight). Is averaging a finish better than the Sweet Sixteen really "not even coming close" to averaging an Elite Eight? |
And then when you consider a lot of her best players can't stay healthy, it's kinda hard to live up to those high expectations.
Duke is really young this year. Amber Henson is their oldest player, but she has dealt with a knee injury since arriving at Duke, undergoing six surgeries.
Junior Oderah Chidom is just now working her way back after being out a year with injury. http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=210594303&KEY=
The only senior (not counting Henson) is Mercedes Riggs, not a prominent player.
They have 6 freshmen: Gorecki, Salvadores, Primm, Suggs, Lambert, and Belton (a redshirt who only played 8 games last year before ACL..... another injury). These freshmen are mostly highly vaunted, but they're still freshmen and mostly guards. They need time to learn to play together. Everybody can't be the 2006 Maryland team.
Duke's Big Two is Stevens and Greenwell, both just sophomores. What I noticed about both of these players listening to the coach's radio show is that they are both really naturally reserved to the point of painfully so, not your great leadership types at this point. So you got this situation where your two top players aren't great leaders and then you have a bunch of freshmen. The team lacks on court leadership and experience.
So what I see a lot with the "disappointment" of teams is expectations that are too high which stems from a lack of awareness. |
Holy "pretzel twisting" Batman! McCallie will say ANYTHING to make losses the fault of the players instead of herself. But this is a new one - the top players are too reserved? Seriously? Some coaches can bring out the best in their players. Losing coaches bring out the worst in their players.
I dare you to compare injuries during Coach G's years at Texas vs McCallie's years at Duke. Did Coach G whine about injuries when Texas underachieved? NO - Coach G left money on the table and left the program. Coach G and Texas had no chemistry. Coach G has bounced back and women's basketball is now benefitting again from her expertise and class - as an asst coach in the WNBA and as a commentator. She's one of the best color commentators in the business because she can dissect what's happening and explain it during dead balls.
And what's happening with Texas now -they're back in the top 10. If coach McCallie had the tiniest speck of class, she'd leave the program instead of constantly whining about how the players, the injuries, the NCAA selection committee (or anyone/anything she can think of) are to blame for her losses.
It should be crystal clear to anyone with half a brain cell devoted to following women's basketball that Duke will only return to the top 10 (or even the top 25) when McCallie is no longer in charge of this program. But, then, this is the woman who thought that leaving the Mich St program - right after signing a contract extension - was "good for women's basketball." What kind of egomaniac even thinks that way, let alone says it out loud?
Decent people accept responsibility and do the right thing.
And you can check the attendance trajectory and quickly discover I am far from alone in not wanting to watch a team coached by McCallie. The 2006 team (& coach G) will be at the game Sunday. You could sell tickets to sit with that team and coach and charge triple/quadruple the price and still get higher attendance than they can at a regular game. If that's not the highest attendance for the season, it will be 100% due to icy roads or the 2006 team being unable to get here due to the snowy weather. If Coach G is there, I'll be there. If she can't get here, I won't bother going to the game. It really is that simple for me and plenty of others.
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PlayBally'all
Joined: 17 Oct 2013
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| Posted: 01/21/16 11:41 pm ::: |
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LSU and Duke.................
LSU is pathetic.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 01/21/16 11:55 pm ::: |
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| PlayBally'all wrote: |
LSU and Duke.................
LSU is pathetic. |
Has LSU EVER finished dead last in the SEC? They might do it this year.
Amazing thing is that there's a thread on VolNation about who should replace Holly, and there are quite a few people who still want Nikki. Say what? Is the "anybody who played or worked for Pat" so strong as to overcome all rational thought?
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 01/22/16 10:30 am ::: |
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As far as I can tell with a brief search, Duke's recruiting class for 2016 is Leonna Odom from Chaminade, a very talented player who's gone to a couple high schools and is not known for consistent effort.
If that's the case, it doesn't appear that Duke is primed to take a leap forward, great or otherwise, next year. Which leads to the question: How long is McCallie's contract? Would the Duke administration be willing to eat some of it? Or is a change really needed?
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greatgator
Joined: 20 Dec 2012
Posts: 142
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| Posted: 01/22/16 10:50 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| How long is McCallie's contract? |
McCallie's contract extends through the 2018-2019 season.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 63770
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| Posted: 01/22/16 11:54 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
As far as I can tell with a brief search, Duke's recruiting class for 2016 is Leonna Odom from Chaminade, a very talented player who's gone to a couple high schools and is not known for consistent effort.
If that's the case, it doesn't appear that Duke is primed to take a leap forward, great or otherwise, next year. Which leads to the question: How long is McCallie's contract? Would the Duke administration be willing to eat some of it? Or is a change really needed? |
You think the answer for Duke is more and better youth? They had 5 true freshmen on this year's team plus a redshirt freshman.
You also seem to be forgetting about Lexie Brown in next year's equation, which should help with Duke's lack of on court leadership. She should be already assimilated with the team by the start of the season. She'll be a key player for Duke. I see definite improvement in next year's club.
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Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 01/22/16 11:56 am ::: |
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| PickledGinger wrote: |
| Their recruiting is still on point but she can't seem to coach up to her player's potential, IMO. |
If I get the time I am gonna try and look at the different draft positions of Geostenkors and McCallies players. Just looking at the top 3 of Geostenkors - Beard #2, Currie #3 and Harding #1, I don't think McCallie's players can match that. I think her highest was last year with Elizabeth Williams at #4.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 01/22/16 12:13 pm ::: |
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| greatgator wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| How long is McCallie's contract? |
McCallie's contract extends through the 2018-2019 season. |
Duke's athletic director is Kevin White. He was previously AD at Notre Dame until he got pushed out the door. Most ND fans consider him one of if not the worst AD in the history of the school. He gave FB coach Bob Davie an undeserved contract extension and then fired him a year later at great expense. He hired George O'Leary without vetting him and fired him a week later. He hired the incompetent Ty Willingham. He hired Charlie Weis and then gave him a completely undeserved extravagant ten year contract extension a year before he was fired. As a result of that idiocy Notre Dame had to pay Weis $19 million over six years after he was fired. The payments finally ended just last month. He nearly destroyed the flagship football program at ND. Jack Swarbrick had a long list of White-created messes to clean up when he took over, starting with firing Weis.
I wouldn't count on White to make any good decisions regarding McCallie or about hiring her successor.
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PickledGinger
Joined: 04 Oct 2013
Posts: 1365
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| Posted: 01/22/16 3:45 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
| You also seem to be forgetting about Lexie Brown in next year's equation, which should help with Duke's lack of on court leadership. She should be already assimilated with the team by the start of the season. She'll be a key player for Duke. I see definite improvement in next year's club. |
Let's not forget Duke's recent history of attrition, though. Yes, they add Brown, but who gets driven away? They already lost Kendall Cooper this season, and I have a hard time believing that all 5 of those Freshmen guards stay. What happens if Duke bottoms out this season and Stevens or Greenwell decide to try for greener pastures? If it happened with Alexis Jones it could happen again.
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PickledGinger
Joined: 04 Oct 2013
Posts: 1365
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| Posted: 01/22/16 3:53 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| PickledGinger wrote: |
| Their recruiting is still on point but she can't seem to coach up to her player's potential, IMO. |
If I get the time I am gonna try and look at the different draft positions of Geostenkors and McCallies players. Just looking at the top 3 of Geostenkors - Beard #2, Currie #3 and Harding #1, I don't think McCallie's players can match that. I think her highest was last year with Elizabeth Williams at #4. |
True, however of those 4, Williams was the highest ranked recruit coming out of high school (in fact if I remember correctly Beard was in like the Mid 30s). Which implies to me that Goestinkors was also better at developing her players. Heck, Williams' freshman year was probably the best of her career at Duke, and very little was done to improve her game thereafter. If it's possible, she may have actually regressed as a player under McCallie.
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