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Martha McSally headed to Senate after all!

 
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PUmatty



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 12/18/18 6:16 pm    ::: Martha McSally headed to Senate after all! Reply Reply with quote

The state of Arizona has spoken and they said with their votes that they don't want her in the Senate. That doesn't matter, because ... Republicans hate democracy.


tfan



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PostPosted: 12/18/18 6:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

She had the most votes for Arizona Senator in 2018 of anyone available for the position. Who would they have picked that would have been a better following of democracy?


2Old4Title9



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PostPosted: 12/18/18 6:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

But it could have been so much worse.



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 12/18/18 7:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
She had the most votes for Arizona Senator in 2018 of anyone available for the position. Who would they have picked that would have been a better following of democracy?


Anyone the state hadn't just explicitly said they didn't want?


tfan



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PostPosted: 12/18/18 7:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
tfan wrote:
She had the most votes for Arizona Senator in 2018 of anyone available for the position. Who would they have picked that would have been a better following of democracy?


Anyone the state hadn't just explicitly said they didn't want?


I disagree with the idea that if you lose an election the voters have said that they "explicitly didn't want you", as it isn't a yes/no vote. If that is the case then wouldn't it follow Hillary Clinton should not have run for President in 2016 because in 2008 the primary voters showed that they explicitly didn't want Hillary Clinton to be president? McSally had 47.6% of the votes. It would only require a small portion of the people who chose Sinema to have an opinion of "McSally would be OK, but I prefer Sinema" in order for "explicitly don't want" to be false.




Last edited by tfan on 12/18/18 7:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 12/18/18 7:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
tfan wrote:
She had the most votes for Arizona Senator in 2018 of anyone available for the position. Who would they have picked that would have been a better following of democracy?


Anyone the state hadn't just explicitly said they didn't want?

Is that what they said? Or did they just say that they did want Sinema? Do we actually know how she would have faired against another random candidate?

This was an extremely close race. As far as "democracy" is served, the outcome is rather reasonable. McCain was also elected by a sizable majority in his last election and I have a hard time seeing them choosing someone of a similar ideological background to finish his term as being "anti-democratic ".



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 12/18/18 7:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I just couldn't disagree with either of you more.

In a democracy, voters have one way to speak. And a month ago, voters in Arizona spoke. Now, what they said is being disregarded and the person they choose to not get that job is getting it anyway. A month later.

How can that be anything other than disregarding the will of the voters?

I know Republicans are disregarding the will of voters in more extreme ways (Michigan, Wisconsin, North Carolina, etc., etc.), but that doesn't make that any less what is happening here. It is one more step in the Republican party's wholesale rejection of democracy.


justintyme



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PostPosted: 12/18/18 9:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

But they are not disregarding the voters? The person for whom 1.19 million people voted (Sinema) is headed to Washington for a 6 year term won via that 2018 election.

None of those votes are being ignored. She is not having her seat taken from her.

On a separate issue there is the 1.35 million voters who voted for John McCain in 2016 for a 6 year term. Due to his death, someone needs to fill his seat until the special election in 2020. I would argue that the most democratic way to honor those initial 1.35 million voters would be to replace him with someone that his family supports and that shares an ideological worldview with him. And since someone has to fill that seat until 2020, why not pick the person who 1.13 million Arizonans voted for in the last elections. That seems the most democratic outcome possible.

All that an election tells us is that out of two candidates, the voters prefered one over the other. It does not mean they reject that candidate in perpetuity. And seeing as though McSally actually won the Republican Primary, and it's a Republican seat we are talking about here, there is evidence to suggest that she would be the most desirable Republican to the voters for that seat.



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2Old4Title9



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PostPosted: 12/19/18 12:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Speaking as an Arizona voter who had a terrible time deciding between Sinema and McSally, I am glad McSally has been appointed. Like it or not, the Arizona Constitution says that when a senator leaves office before the end of his term, the Governor shall appoint a replacement of the same party to finish out that term. McSally was initially declared the winner of Jeff Flake's seat, only to have the tables turn as votes continued to be counted. McSally will finish McCain's term, then she will either run again or not. Another quirk we have is that the Secretary of State is next in line for the Governor's office if he leaves. In our case, that would be Democrat Katie Hobbs.



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Howee



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PostPosted: 12/19/18 3:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
I just couldn't disagree with either of you more.

In a democracy, voters have one way to speak. And a month ago, voters in Arizona spoke. Now, what they said is being disregarded and the person they choose to not get that job is getting it anyway. A month later.

How can that be anything other than disregarding the will of the voters?

I know Republicans are disregarding the will of voters in more extreme ways (Michigan, Wisconsin, North Carolina, etc., etc.), but that doesn't make that any less what is happening here. It is one more step in the Republican party's wholesale rejection of democracy.


Hmmm. I can't see all of this from the same Binary Option perspective. I mean, MANY people DID want McSally, tho not a majority. Just cuz she lost to Sinema, doesn't mean she can't be appointed a judge or some other position of public service forever and ever.

To me, things like the voter suppression in Georgia, or the GOP tactics in WI and MI are far more egregious. NOTHING, however, tops the way Hillary won more votes than Donald, but....here we are. Shocked

Our democracy is certainly flawed, but at least we can still gripe about it in public. (For now Razz )



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cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 12/19/18 6:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
I just couldn't disagree with either of you more.

In a democracy, voters have one way to speak. And a month ago, voters in Arizona spoke. Now, what they said is being disregarded and the person they choose to not get that job is getting it anyway. A month later.

How can that be anything other than disregarding the will of the voters?

I know Republicans are disregarding the will of voters in more extreme ways (Michigan, Wisconsin, North Carolina, etc., etc.), but that doesn't make that any less what is happening here. It is one more step in the Republican party's wholesale rejection of democracy.


Hmmm. I can't see all of this from the same Binary Option perspective. I mean, MANY people DID want McSally, tho not a majority. Just cuz she lost to Sinema, doesn't mean she can't be appointed a judge or some other position of public service forever and ever.

To me, things like the voter suppression in Georgia, or the GOP tactics in WI and MI are far more egregious. NOTHING, however, tops the way Hillary won more votes than Donald, but....here we are. Shocked

Our democracy is certainly flawed, but at least we can still gripe about it in public. (For now Razz )


amen.



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