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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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 Posted: 06/21/16 9:57 pm ::: |
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| Randy wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
| Again, I think Allen will get minutes. Defense is what holds back Schimmel, Zahui B, Bulgak, and even Swords when she gets yanked. Allen looked physically fine when I saw her at the end of February/beginning of March. She should be able to defend OK. Then, her offense is whatever it is. Bill said that the team ran out of gas last season. He used a rotation of 10 (Allen injured, AWT mostly DNP) for the majority of the season, then 9 while Prince and Boyd were out. Lately this season, he has primarily used 8. Shoni and Amanda play very few minutes, and Adut barely gets off the bench. So, if his players burned out last season, they're surely going to do the same this year unless he redistributes the minutes. I expect Allen to take the rotation to at least nine. |
All this makes sense. I'm hoping you're right about Allen. The recent eight-player rotation seems worrisome in terms of likely burnout. |
There is the month long break - for everyone except Charles (and maybe Allen?). |
That's true, but beginning tomorrow the Liberty have 14 games in a month.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 06/21/16 9:59 pm ::: |
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| Allen says she's still in the running for the Opals.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 06/21/16 10:14 pm ::: |
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| Randy wrote: |
There is the month long break - for everyone except Charles (and maybe Allen?). |
Charles is the player we're most worried about. Her minutes have gone up from 31.0 mpg last season to 34.6, and it seems to be more lately.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 06/21/16 10:48 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
There is the month long break - for everyone except Charles (and maybe Allen?). |
Charles is the player we're most worried about. Her minutes have gone up from 31.0 mpg last season to 34.6, and it seems to be more lately. |
Yes. To put it another way, Minnesota won a road game today against a team that was 11-0 even though Maya Moore played only 19 minutes and scored only 8 points. Does any Liberty fan want to contemplate our chances in a big game if Tina Charles scores only 8 points? I don't. Keeping Charles healthy, making sure she's not burned out--these are crucial.
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Youth Coach
Joined: 23 Mar 2008
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| Posted: 06/22/16 6:00 am ::: |
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| Plain and simple, I'm happy to see Rebecca Allen back on the team and hope that she will make some prime contributions. |
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UofDel_Alum
Joined: 10 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 06/23/16 7:23 am ::: |
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| After watching yesterdays game with Atlanta, I was amazed how good and powerful the Liberty were under the basket. I do not know the stats but just watching the game you see the players worked very hard for rebounds and scoring under the basket. The Liberty has the team and you can put hard hats on this team on how hard they play under the basket. To me this sounds like a Bill Laimbeer characteristic.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 06/23/16 8:44 am ::: |
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| I'm pulling back from my prediction that Allen will be part of the regular rotation. Before other posters mentioned it, I wasn't aware that the Liberty have such a tightly packed schedule through to the Olympic break. There isn't a lot of time to practice, and without practice time it's hard to work in a new player. That also applies to anyone else, if any, that the team might acquire before the break. Looking at the new players they already tried to blend in, the young ones -- Schimmel, Zahui B, Bulgak -- still aren't productive. In fact, Shoni and Amanda look worse now than when they arrived. It's like they're caught in between -- not playing free and easy in their old style, but also unsure of what to do under the Liberty system. So, they look tentative, and when they find themselves in a bad position they panic. As far as the veterans go, Zellous looked really bad for 4 games before finally adjusting. Harding did seem to perform okay from the beginning despite no training camp (her jump shot notwithstanding). However, Lindsey has played for so many teams both here and overseas that she's probably seen every system imaginable. Not sure how Allen fits in. She's only 23, but this is Bec's 4th pro team and she has also been on the Opals. She benefits from having been with the Liberty briefly last season, so she has knowledge of their systems. Nonetheless, it's one thing to know the theory and another to mesh well with teammates. That usually takes actual time together on the floor. If there aren't enough practices, do you risk trying to integrate Allen during real games?
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Shades
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| Posted: 06/23/16 9:08 am ::: |
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| I keep thinking back to that game against the Sparks, and how it would have been nice to have Allen's length guarding Toliver on her dagger three point shot. I doubt Toliver would have had such a clean look. Just small things like that can contribute. I know the Liberty are looking for somebody other than Charles and Rodgers to be a major contributor on offense, but I doubt that'll be Allen.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 06/23/16 12:18 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
| I keep thinking back to that game against the Sparks, and how it would have been nice to have Allen's length guarding Toliver on her dagger three point shot. I doubt Toliver would have had such a clean look. Just small things like that can contribute. I know the Liberty are looking for somebody other than Charles and Rodgers to be a major contributor on offense, but I doubt that'll be Allen. |
Good point, but it would've also helped if Rodgers didn't give Toliver so much room. Sugar played it like a regular possession when she should've been in Toliver's face. If Kristie wants to drive, let her. The only thing that hurts you there is a three.
But I agree if Allen can fit into the team concept her presence will be helpful. We saw it when Swin came back. Just having the extra length and the experience of playing forward really helps over using converted guards. Allen will block a shot, tip passes, grab an extra rebound or two -- add maybe 3-4 positive plays each game that can make the difference between winning and losing.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 06/23/16 1:45 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| There isn't a lot of time to practice, and without practice time it's hard to work in a new player. That also applies to anyone else, if any, that the team might acquire before the break. Looking at the new players they already tried to blend in, the young ones -- Schimmel, Zahui B, Bulgak -- still aren't productive. In fact, Shoni and Amanda look worse now than when they arrived. It's like they're caught in between -- not playing free and easy in their old style, but also unsure of what to do under the Liberty system. So, they look tentative, and when they find themselves in a bad position they panic. |
Yes, I was noticing this too, especially with Shoni. It's like she purposely passes up open shots to try to pass and then those forced passes turn into turnovers.
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 06/23/16 3:18 pm ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
| There isn't a lot of time to practice, and without practice time it's hard to work in a new player. That also applies to anyone else, if any, that the team might acquire before the break. Looking at the new players they already tried to blend in, the young ones -- Schimmel, Zahui B, Bulgak -- still aren't productive. In fact, Shoni and Amanda look worse now than when they arrived. It's like they're caught in between -- not playing free and easy in their old style, but also unsure of what to do under the Liberty system. So, they look tentative, and when they find themselves in a bad position they panic. |
Yes, I was noticing this too, especially with Shoni. It's like she purposely passes up open shots to try to pass and then those forced passes turn into turnovers. |
While I hope both start to get more minutes I' not concerned with Schimmel or Zahui B. this season. They will both have the long break as a make or break time. I'm sure the Liberty will be practicing and really focusing on getting the young players in a position to succeed over the Olympic break. I'm still very excited for both players and think we'll see more out of them by the end of the season.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 06/23/16 3:23 pm ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
| There isn't a lot of time to practice, and without practice time it's hard to work in a new player. That also applies to anyone else, if any, that the team might acquire before the break. Looking at the new players they already tried to blend in, the young ones -- Schimmel, Zahui B, Bulgak -- still aren't productive. In fact, Shoni and Amanda look worse now than when they arrived. It's like they're caught in between -- not playing free and easy in their old style, but also unsure of what to do under the Liberty system. So, they look tentative, and when they find themselves in a bad position they panic. |
Yes, I was noticing this too, especially with Shoni. It's like she purposely passes up open shots to try to pass and then those forced passes turn into turnovers. |
In my view, part of the problem is that both Zahui B and Schimmel are out there only for rather short and occasional spurts on the floor. That surely contributes to each player feeling tentative. If Laimbeer believes that either player or both can actually help the team, then I believe he needs to play her/them more often and more consistently and see what happens. Yes, it could possibly contribute to a couple of Liberty losses. But how else can we see if they can genuinely help the team this year?
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 06/23/16 8:08 pm ::: |
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I think both players would be able to get minutes in spite of being tentative if only either played better defense...and in AZB's case also if she functioned better within the offense.
LFO said a few weeks back that Shoni is learning how to be disciplined on offense after coming from a less disciplined Atlanta system, and that defense would dictate more minutes. As it is if she is giving opponents layups and wide open jumpers, this isn't the team for her. It won't be until that area improves to where she isn't a total liability.
In AZB's case she has an annoying propensity to commit fouls at an alarming rate. I think Bill would live with offensive mistakes if she was a difference maker on defense. I mean, she is a difference maker. It's just not usually in favor of the Liberty right now.
Honestly, giving either player more minutes might help on offense, but it isn't going to help much where it matters most. On defense. If both players are killing you on defense, it's probably not going to do wonders for their confidence or their long-term development anyway. I'm more in support of playing them when they are ready to legitimately contribute. Laimbeer is very good at developing players. He will know when they are ready.
Given that, I think the best bet is to get Allen up to speed so that Swin can relieve Tina at times, and Z can provide more support for Sugar. That way you have a nice balance of minutes. At least we know Allen can defend. We also know that she was a quick learner last year. I see no reason why that would be different this time around.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 06/23/16 8:40 pm ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
I think both players would be able to get minutes in spite of being tentative if only either played better defense...and in AZB's case also if she functioned better within the offense.
LFO said a few weeks back that Shoni is learning how to be disciplined on offense after coming from a less disciplined Atlanta system, and that defense would dictate more minutes. As it is if she is giving opponents layups and wide open jumpers, this isn't the team for her. It won't be until that area improves to where she isn't a total liability.
In AZB's case she has an annoying propensity to commit fouls at an alarming rate. I think Bill would live with offensive mistakes if she was a difference maker on defense. I mean, she is a difference maker. It's just not usually in favor of the Liberty right now.
Honestly, giving either player more minutes might help on offense, but it isn't going to help much where it matters most. On defense. If both players are killing you on defense, it's probably not going to do wonders for their confidence or their long-term development anyway. I'm more in support of playing them when they are ready to legitimately contribute. Laimbeer is very good at developing players. He will know when they are ready.
Given that, I think the best bet is to get Allen up to speed so that Swin can relieve Tina at times, and Z can provide more support for Sugar. That way you have a nice balance of minutes. At least we know Allen can defend. We also know that she was a quick learner last year. I see no reason why that would be different this time around. |
The problem is that it really hurts the team--especially with all those games coming before the Olympic break--to have an eight-player rotation. (And not so many minutes from either Swords or Boyd.) We can hope that Allen will help, but there's no guarantee that Laimbeer can get Allen "up to speed" any more quickly than he's gotten Schimmel, Zahui B, or Bulgak up to speed.
And even if Laimbeer can get Allen up to speed quickly, New York will still be carrying three players who are contributing very little.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 06/23/16 10:02 pm ::: |
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Those are all valid points. We know for sure that Allen has one built-in advantage over those other players in that she has the physical tools to immediately play defense and be a plus from that standpoint.
From the little I saw, I also thought Allen was a disciplined WNBA player. Which still leaves complete uncertainty as to exactly what she can offer offensively. But we know LFO will give minutes to players who show defensive aptitude and offensive discipline even if their offensive productivity is limited. Since she has at least one of the traits he is looking for, that should get her on the court. If she consistently demonstrates discipline she can stay there and be a definitive part of the rotation...eventually.
Let's hope Boyd can step forward soon too. When she is playing her game she can get points in bunches. Having a player to do that off the bench would help in so many ways. Among other things it would take pressure off of Tina to be that fourth quarter focal point. Last year Boyd stepped up big in the fourth quarter of some games and flat out won us the Phoenix game. If she can return to that form, that would be an immense difference maker for the Libs right now. It would give them an alternative to having to grind their way to wins every night. Of course, Boyd has borne little resemblance to last year's version. We now know that a second surgery was performed to repair her wrist. What we don't know is how much it is affecting her. But it certainly seems to have at least played a part in her struggles.
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myrtle
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| Posted: 06/25/16 2:33 pm ::: |
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| Just a comment. Whenever I see the Lib play one thing that always stands out is just how ugly Tina's shot is - weird coming out of her hands and weird rotation. So I find myself going 'no, no, no, don't take that shot....oh, good shot' because it actually goes in so often. It's like a minor miracle.
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miller40
Joined: 29 Jun 2006
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| Posted: 06/30/16 1:08 pm ::: |
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| When is Tina Charles expected back from her nose surgery?
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Shades
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| Posted: 06/30/16 1:18 pm ::: |
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| miller40 wrote: |
| When is Tina Charles expected back from her nose surgery? |
Possibly Friday
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 06/30/16 1:21 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
| miller40 wrote: |
| When is Tina Charles expected back from her nose surgery? |
Possibly Friday |
should be Friday. she just had swelling from the surgery.
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miller40
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| Posted: 06/30/16 2:10 pm ::: |
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| Thanks Shades and toad455!
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 07/07/16 9:51 pm ::: |
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| Given the way that the Liberty began this season and the way Minnesota began, it's incredible that New York is now only two games behind the Lynx for second place! I don't expect the Liberty to finish ahead of Minnesota, but it certainly would be wonderful to get the second seed.
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Bob Lamm
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toad455
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| Posted: 07/11/16 3:42 pm ::: |
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Wanted to post this here instead of the 7/10 game thread. The problem the Liberty have is where does Prince fit in when she comes back. Back-up to Rodgers? Do they go small with Boyd-Rodgers-Prince? Does this move Allen to the end of the bench? And what about next season? Prince starts at SF? At PG? Would it just be easier to trade Prince this off season? Prince for Danielle Robinson?
PG: Robinson/Boyd
SG: Rodgers/Wright/Shimmel
SF: Allen/Zellous
PF: Charles/Zahui B./Bulgak
C: Swords/Stokes
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root_thing
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Bob Lamm
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