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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: 08/08/15 11:47 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
They pay income taxes too.
Employers have to withhold taxes and FICA and pay the employer FICA share. The employees provide phony or stolen numbers. This has been going on for decades. I don't understand your problem. Indeed it's been an issue in Congress during debates over immigration reform over whether illegals being allowed to become legal should get credit for the SS taxes they've paid.
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The problems are obvious if someone doesn't believe in open borders.
One problem is the assumption that an employer hiring illegals is doing it unknowingly and just blindly taking invalid social security numbers and passing it on to the government who sees that it is invalid and does nothing.
The majority of people employing illegals know they are illegal. That is specifically why they are hiring them. They don't want to have to pay minimum/market wage or pay unemployment insurance or worry about unlawful termination lawsuits. And they do want workers who have less opportunities elsewhere making them less likely to leave. So there are going to be plenty of illegals who are paid in cash.
And if it was legal to employ illegals as long as you get fraudulent SSNs and send in their appropriate payroll deductions then that would mean every company in America could save payroll money - from General Motors on down. And I don't believe it is legal. I saw a piece once where they were busting Chipotle for employing illegals and they interviewed one of the illegals and he said he had gotten a job at another fast food chain. But if Chipotle just had to make payroll deductions into fraudulent SSN#s, why did their illegals have to leave?
And what does that say about the federal government if they get payroll deductions for an invalid or wrong social security number and do nothing? Why do we have immigration laws if they are not going to be enforced? Just open the borders.
And then we have the concept that the social security administration is allegedly tracking the payments that go into fraudulent SSN #s so they can later pay those people money if Congress so decides?
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Plus the Obama administration has issued real SS numbers to hundreds of thousands of illegals. |
He does love the illegals and also the H1-Bs. That is, by the way, one reason why Carly Fiorina should be disqualified from a presidential run - she was a big proponent of H1-Bs and increasing their numbers (although that is typical of CEOs who benefit from an over-supply of labor).
Last edited by tfan on 08/08/15 11:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 08/08/15 11:52 pm ::: |
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| *duplicate*
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 08/09/15 12:09 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
The loss in 2002 was due to the merger with Compaq. |
Which she engineered, was an idiotic deal, and nearly ruined the Company.
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It didn't nearly ruin the company as the financials show.
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During her tenure HP fell well behind chief rivals Dell and IBM. Wall Street didn't think much of her company and HP consistently traded for lower multiples than similar companies. And she couldn't get along with her board or anyone else. |
What did they fall "way behind" in? Sales continued to increase. Did they fall way behind in technology in 5 years? What was the radical difference in technology between an HP machine and an IBM or Dell machine in 2005?
Not getting along with the board is an issue as a president would have to deal with Congress.
I think you could give any politician 4 Pinocchio's.
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Is she your sister or something? You're sure going out of your way to strain to defend the indefensible, |
You said, for example, that Fiorina nearly bankrupt HP. I am not defending something indefensible when I counter that, because the annual report shows that HP was not even losing money, let alone near bankrupcty. I am just trying to reel things in. Move from black or white, to grey.
I would never vote for Fiorina as I see from her Wikipedia article that she is an uber advocate of worker importation and job exportation, going so far as to advocate for them in front of Congress.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 08/09/15 1:21 am ::: |
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| p_d_swanson wrote: |
| I always enjoy Jammer's Tom-Friedman-talks-to-cab-driver anecdotes about how the world really works... |
Just checking in now and again from out here in the sea of how the world really works._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/09/15 7:37 am ::: |
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| sambista wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| sambista wrote: |
| as an aside, as much as some of us have always loved hillary, i'm afraid she's a victim of poor timing. it feels like this election has already slipped away from her. too late, too much baggage, embraced more by who she has been than who she will be in america's future. and joe biden and crew know it. |
I find it hard to believe that Joe Biden (73 years old on election day) or Bernie Sanders (75 years old on election day) represent our future. |
i don't think he does, but he does know that hillary's in trouble, and he's got nothing to lose. |
He's done nothing to indicate that he's getting ready to run. (The New York Times boomlet a little while back notably did not mention anyone actually doing anything to facilitate a run.) I think the only scenario in which we see Biden is if Hillary has a major scandal and her support collapses by, say, mid-March.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 08/09/15 7:52 am ::: |
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| beknighted wrote: |
| sambista wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| sambista wrote: |
| as an aside, as much as some of us have always loved hillary, i'm afraid she's a victim of poor timing. it feels like this election has already slipped away from her. too late, too much baggage, embraced more by who she has been than who she will be in america's future. and joe biden and crew know it. |
I find it hard to believe that Joe Biden (73 years old on election day) or Bernie Sanders (75 years old on election day) represent our future. |
i don't think he does, but he does know that hillary's in trouble, and he's got nothing to lose. |
He's done nothing to indicate that he's getting ready to run. (The New York Times boomlet a little while back notably did not mention anyone actually doing anything to facilitate a run.) I think the only scenario in which we see Biden is if Hillary has a major scandal and her support collapses by, say, mid-March. |
After Super Tuesday? What a mess that would be.
The New Hampshire primary is six months from today.
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scullyfu
Joined: 01 Jan 2006
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| Posted: 08/09/15 8:07 am ::: |
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ARTBEST23 wrote:
"It's interesting that even Trump who wants to spend some obscene amount on a 1900 mile long Berlin Wall in the Southwestern US doesn't talk about how he'd deal with the many millions already here."
Trump has on more than one occasion said he will make the Mexican government pay for it and they'll be happy to do it!
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 08/09/15 9:33 am ::: |
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Tfan, I don't know if you're just arguing for the sake if arguing or what, but my view on Fiorina's reign at HP is hardly unique. As Business Insider recently wrote:
Carly Fiorina is looking for donors to help fund a run for 2016 GOP presidential nomination, she told Fox News on Sunday.
She's hoping to win votes based on her achievements in the world of business.
There's only one problem with that: her biggest achievement, becoming the first woman to run Hewlett-Packard, is widely regarded as a disaster.
Or as CNNMoney wrote:
Fiorina tried to jump-start the company's growth in the PC market by acquiring rival Compaq in 2002 for $19 billion.
That deal is now considered one of the worst in the history of the tech sector. And HP wound up laying off 30,000 workers during her nearly six-year tenure.
By the time of Fiorina's ouster in February 2005, HP's stock had lost nearly half its value. The tech-heavy Nasdaq index had fallen 27% during the same time frame.
Or as Wonkette wrote:
Now, yr Wonkette is a very pro-woman empire, and we definitely think that Fiorina probably DID have some hurdles to jump, being the first woman in that kind of position. But that doesnt mean she didnt ALSO suck. . . .
In 1999 when she arrived at the company, HP had $42 billion in sales and $3.1 billion in net earnings. When she left in 2005, HP had $87 billion in sales but only $2.4 billion in earnings.
By the way, HP's stock price jumped 7% upon the announcement of her firing -- a big "good riddance" cheer by the market.
http://www.businessinsider.com/carly-fiorina-presidential-ambitions-follow-a-terrible-record-at-hp-2015-3
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 08/09/15 9:43 am ::: |
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BTW, when Fiorina unsuccesssfuly ran for the Senate in 2010, Arianna Packard wrote:
I know a little bit about Carly Fiorina, having watched her almost destroy the company my grandfather founded."
Her words.
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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Location: Lost in D.C.
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| Posted: 08/09/15 11:46 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
| sambista wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| sambista wrote: |
| as an aside, as much as some of us have always loved hillary, i'm afraid she's a victim of poor timing. it feels like this election has already slipped away from her. too late, too much baggage, embraced more by who she has been than who she will be in america's future. and joe biden and crew know it. |
I find it hard to believe that Joe Biden (73 years old on election day) or Bernie Sanders (75 years old on election day) represent our future. |
i don't think he does, but he does know that hillary's in trouble, and he's got nothing to lose. |
He's done nothing to indicate that he's getting ready to run. (The New York Times boomlet a little while back notably did not mention anyone actually doing anything to facilitate a run.) I think the only scenario in which we see Biden is if Hillary has a major scandal and her support collapses by, say, mid-March. |
After Super Tuesday? What a mess that would be.
The New Hampshire primary is six months from today. |
It would be a complete mess. My presumption is that this scenario involves her withdrawing and Biden essentially getting all of her delegates.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 08/09/15 12:24 pm ::: |
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| beknighted wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
| sambista wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| sambista wrote: |
| as an aside, as much as some of us have always loved hillary, i'm afraid she's a victim of poor timing. it feels like this election has already slipped away from her. too late, too much baggage, embraced more by who she has been than who she will be in america's future. and joe biden and crew know it. |
I find it hard to believe that Joe Biden (73 years old on election day) or Bernie Sanders (75 years old on election day) represent our future. |
i don't think he does, but he does know that hillary's in trouble, and he's got nothing to lose. |
He's done nothing to indicate that he's getting ready to run. (The New York Times boomlet a little while back notably did not mention anyone actually doing anything to facilitate a run.) I think the only scenario in which we see Biden is if Hillary has a major scandal and her support collapses by, say, mid-March. |
After Super Tuesday? What a mess that would be.
The New Hampshire primary is six months from today. |
It would be a complete mess. My presumption is that this scenario involves her withdrawing and Biden essentially getting all of her delegates. |
I could see a scenario where the email flap or something else appears to all other viewers to have irreperably damaged Clinton but she stubbornly stays in and Biden decides that she may be hurting the party's Nov chances and that the opening is too big to pass up.
Not that I think that will happen, but I don't think she necessarily has to agree to withdraw for him to jump in.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 08/09/15 1:12 pm ::: |
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NBC post-debate poll of Republican voters today:
Trump 23%
Cruz 13%
Carson 11%
Fiorina 8%
Rubio 8%
Bush 7%
Walker 7%
This bodes well for Cruz, especially if one assumes that Trump, Carson and Fiorina (the true Muad'Dib) ultimately crash. |
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 08/09/15 1:36 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
NBC post-debate poll of Republican voters today:
Trump 23%
Cruz 13%
Carson 11%
Fiorina 8%
Rubio 8%
Bush 7%
Walker 7%
This bodes well for Cruz, especially if one assumes that Trump, Carson and Fiorina (the true Muad'Dib) ultimately crash. |
How seriously can anyone take a poll that has Trump, Cruz, Carson and Fiorina as 1-4?
I don't the GOP is actually THAT screwed.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 08/09/15 1:39 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
NBC post-debate poll of Republican voters today:
Trump 23%
Cruz 13%
Carson 11%
Fiorina 8%
Rubio 8%
Bush 7%
Walker 7%
This bodes well for Cruz, especially if one assumes that Trump, Carson and Fiorina (the true Muad'Dib) ultimately crash. |
How seriously can anyone take a poll that has Trump, Cruz, Carson and Fiorina as 1-4?
I don't the GOP is actually THAT screwed. |
Eight years ago this week Rudy Giuliani was leading the GOP polls with Fred Thompson closing fast. You may recall thay they combined to win zero primaries.
It's way too early to pay much attention to polls.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 08/09/15 1:42 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
NBC post-debate poll of Republican voters today:
Trump 23%
Cruz 13%
Carson 11%
Fiorina 8%
Rubio 8%
Bush 7%
Walker 7%
This bodes well for Cruz, especially if one assumes that Trump, Carson and Fiorina (the true Muad'Dib) ultimately crash. |
How seriously can anyone take a poll that has Trump, Cruz, Carson and Fiorina as 1-4?
I don't the GOP is actually THAT screwed. |
Eight years ago this week Rudy Giuliani was leading the GOP polls with Fred Thompson closing fast. You may recall thay they combined to win zero primaries.
It's way too early to pay much attention to polls. |
Agreed, except they're being used to limit access to the debates, which makes them more significant than they should be.
Wasn't the Pizza King leading the polls early four years ago?
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 08/09/15 1:46 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
NBC post-debate poll of Republican voters today:
Trump 23%
Cruz 13%
Carson 11%
Fiorina 8%
Rubio 8%
Bush 7%
Walker 7%
This bodes well for Cruz, especially if one assumes that Trump, Carson and Fiorina (the true Muad'Dib) ultimately crash. |
How seriously can anyone take a poll that has Trump, Cruz, Carson and Fiorina as 1-4?
I don't the GOP is actually THAT screwed. |
Eight years ago this week Rudy Giuliani was leading the GOP polls with Fred Thompson closing fast. You may recall thay they combined to win zero primaries.
It's way too early to pay much attention to polls. |
Agreed, except they're being used to limit access to the debates, which makes them more significant than they should be.
Wasn't the Pizza King leading the polls early four years ago? |
Cain led the polls as late as November.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 08/09/15 1:54 pm ::: |
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Did they have debates this early in 2008? I don't recall. The race ended up being non-competitive, McCain winning easily.
More post-debate polls will come out this week. I'm interested in the dynamics. The NBC poll seems to show Trump holding place (not hurt by the debate), Cruz and Fiorina moving up, and Walker and Bush moving down. |
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 08/09/15 2:02 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Did they have debates this early in 2008? I don't recall. |
They started several months earlier in that cycle. There were three debates before the beginning of August.
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Last edited by pilight on 08/09/15 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
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| Posted: 08/09/15 2:02 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
NBC post-debate poll of Republican voters today:
Trump 23%
Cruz 13%
Carson 11%
Fiorina 8%
Rubio 8%
Bush 7%
Walker 7%
This bodes well for Cruz, especially if one assumes that Trump, Carson and Fiorina (the true Muad'Dib) ultimately crash. |
How seriously can anyone take a poll that has Trump, Cruz, Carson and Fiorina as 1-4?
I don't the GOP is actually THAT screwed. |
Eight years ago this week Rudy Giuliani was leading the GOP polls with Fred Thompson closing fast. You may recall thay they combined to win zero primaries.
It's way too early to pay much attention to polls. |
Agreed, except they're being used to limit access to the debates, which makes them more significant than they should be.
Wasn't the Pizza King leading the polls early four years ago? |
Yeah, this is also the time of the year were people choose their fantasy candidate. For instance, if you polled me right now I would say Bernie Sanders because he matches my political ideology so well. However, I will almost certainly vote for Hillary in the primaries, as I don't think Sanders can win a gereral election and the idea of a Republican president scares the ever living shit out of me (especially with a Republican legislature--last thing we need is another Scalia on SCOTUS).
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 08/09/15 2:16 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Did they have debates this early in 2008? I don't recall. The race ended up being non-competitive, McCain winning easily.
More post-debate polls will come out this week. I'm interested in the dynamics. The NBC poll seems to show Trump holding place (not hurt by the debate), Cruz and Fiorina moving up, and Walker and Bush moving down. |
I'm far more sceptical about Carson's and Fiorina's huge jumps and Bush's and Walker's huge drops than I am about Trump holding place.
What was this NBC poll's methodology? Was this an internet poll?
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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Location: Heisenberg
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| Posted: 08/09/15 5:53 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Did they have debates this early in 2008? I don't recall. The race ended up being non-competitive, McCain winning easily.
More post-debate polls will come out this week. I'm interested in the dynamics. The NBC poll seems to show Trump holding place (not hurt by the debate), Cruz and Fiorina moving up, and Walker and Bush moving down. |
I'm far more sceptical about Carson's and Fiorina's huge jumps and Bush's and Walker's huge drops than I am about Trump holding place.
What was this NBC poll's methodology? Was this an internet poll? |
http://www.pdf.investintech.com/preview/33f7458c-3ec9-11e5-9555-002590d31986/index.html |
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 08/09/15 6:16 pm ::: |
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"The NBC News Online Survey was conducted online by SurveyMonkey August 7-8, 2015 among a national sample of 3,551 adults aged 18 and over. Respondents for this non-probability survey were selected from the nearly three million people who take surveys on the SurveyMonkey platform each day.
Well that explains a lot.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 08/09/15 9:50 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
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Let's have some context of the entire stock market from 1999 to 2005, the years of Fiorina's tenure at HP, where she was the first outside CEO and the first female CEO.
From 1990 to 1999 there was a bull market, sometimes called the dotcom or technology bubble. A strong bear market began in 1999 or 2000. The market was further driven down by the events of September 11, 2001. Then, in 2002 the dotcom (or internet) bubble burst, causing a severe market crash worldwide. Many big companies went bankrupt during this period, such as Enron. Other internet giants such as Amazon, Yahoo and Ebay suffered big declines in stock value but survived.
This chart show the precipitous crash in S&P 500 P/E ratios from 1999 to 2003, followed by a weak and flat recovery, followed by another sharp decline.
HP under Fiorina's leadership actually grew aggressively in revenue, doubling from 1999 to 2005. Net income was essentially flat over the period. Some financial metrics improved (patents) while others became worse (debt).
Here's a business analysis of HP from 1999 to 2011 by Stanford University. The Compaq merger, in retrospect, hurt HP during Fiorina's tenure. It sparked proxy fights and public disputes between the board and major stockholders. Ultimately, the board approved the merger unanimously and the shareholders approved it by a margin of 51% to 49%. There were a lot of sailors in the merger boat with Fiorina.
Many, if not most, mergers turn out to be disappointments in business, and HP-Compaq was one of them. Fiorina disagreed on strategic principles with the board on the business direction for HP after the merger disappointment, and so they let her go with severance. That's just "business as usual" for many, if not most, CEO's.
How and why Fiorina exited from HP is the least relevant aspect of her business career, to me. Her glass-shattering, rocket ship rise from a real estate secretary to CEO of the world's then-largest technology company at age 45 bespeaks prodigious skills as creative team builder, communicator, and managerial superstar in a global business enterprise. Those are rare skills, which we haven't had in a President since Ronald Reagan -- if then. |
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 08/09/15 10:17 pm ::: |
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Statistician Nate Silver has a post where he shows how limited Trump's support is right now.. He is leading in first choice votes, but is also the candidate with the most unfavorable votes. The number of people who view him favorably is below 7 other candidates. His net favorable percentage (%view favorable minus %view unfavorably) is only 13th of all the candidates.
Silver also has another post where he talks about how bad of a tactic it is for Trump to go after someone at FoxNews. Republicans can handle going after another media outlet, or even sitting Republicans, but 80% of them have a good impression of FoxNews.
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