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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 11/24/14 5:36 pm    ::: Ferguson Grand Jury Decision Reply Reply with quote

Coming later today. Can't venture a guess as to what the decision will be or, honestly, what the right decision is in this case.

I've lost track of the details of the incident. I know two shots were fired inside the SUV. That indicates to me, at least, that the big out-of-control bully from the convenience store video may have tried to indeed engage the officer inside the police vehicle. I'm not sure if I heard this correct... but I seem to remember hearing that the two shots actually STRUCK inside the vehicle. If that's true then that kid tried to take the cops gun and the cop was shooting to save his own life.

And after that, after a guy would come physically into your police vehicle for any reason, you can pretty much wipe the slate clean for that officer's subsequent actions. In my opinion. Once anyone engages in the level of violence with a police officer that reaches him or her trying to take your weapon that person must be stopped... IMO... even if it means shooting him unarmed in the street. If he is continuing to refuse to comply with your instructions. At that point, I want MY police to assume this guy has to be stopped and not allowed to remain at large. Anyway.

But as I said, even those bullets did not hit inside the car but were from the inside to outside the vehicle... it still... taken with what we know about the Mr. Brown and given his friend's account that says Michael Brown was 'pulled' into the SUV (something I just don't believe for a second) I would say the truth is that kid did try to get that cops gun from him. Anyway.

I bailed on the other thread in terms of having any outrage over the shooting the second I saw the convenience store video. That showed me who Michael Brown was and once I saw that I became VERY inclined to believe that his encounter with a police officer ending his being shot to death 20 minutes or so later was on him. There may have been mistakes made by the officer. But my thinking was that this was a big waste of time as a landmark civil rights moment. People were full of shit, again, etc.

We shall all know soon what the grand jury has decided.



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beknighted



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 6:49 pm    ::: Re: Ferguson Grand Jury Decision Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Coming later today. Can't venture a guess as to what the decision will be or, honestly, what the right decision is in this case.

I've lost track of the details of the incident. I know two shots were fired inside the SUV. That indicates to me, at least, that the big out-of-control bully from the convenience store video may have tried to indeed engage the officer inside the police vehicle. I'm not sure if I heard this correct... but I seem to remember hearing that the two shots actually STRUCK inside the vehicle. If that's true then that kid tried to take the cops gun and the cop was shooting to save his own life.

And after that, after a guy would come physically into your police vehicle for any reason, you can pretty much wipe the slate clean for that officer's subsequent actions. In my opinion. Once anyone engages in the level of violence with a police officer that reaches him or her trying to take your weapon that person must be stopped... IMO... even if it means shooting him unarmed in the street. If he is continuing to refuse to comply with your instructions. At that point, I want MY police to assume this guy has to be stopped and not allowed to remain at large. Anyway.

But as I said, even those bullets did not hit inside the car but were from the inside to outside the vehicle... it still... taken with what we know about the Mr. Brown and given his friend's account that says Michael Brown was 'pulled' into the SUV (something I just don't believe for a second) I would say the truth is that kid did try to get that cops gun from him. Anyway.

I bailed on the other thread in terms of having any outrage over the shooting the second I saw the convenience store video. That showed me who Michael Brown was and once I saw that I became VERY inclined to believe that his encounter with a police officer ending his being shot to death 20 minutes or so later was on him. There may have been mistakes made by the officer. But my thinking was that this was a big waste of time as a landmark civil rights moment. People were full of shit, again, etc.

We shall all know soon what the grand jury has decided.


My very strong opinion on this is that there are only about 50 (maybe 100, tops) people who know enough about what actually happened to have an opinion on what happened. CN freakin N has a poll up in which it asked people whether Wilson should be indicted and it just makes me want to scream. (Apparently, the results are racially divided. Tell me something I didn't know already.)

But one point: If you assume a sequence of events that includes Wilson shooting and wounding Brown, essentially disabling him, and the killing shot came either at some distance or some time after the other shots, then, no, you can't "wipe the slate clean" for those subsequent actions. It's not much different than if you shoot an intruder in your house, and that person is lying on the floor bleeding, and then you walk up and shoot him in the head. The first shots are justified; the last one is murder.

I'm not saying that's what happened here - I know I don't know - and I'm not saying you could prove it unless there's a video nobody knows about out there. I'm just saying that even if Brown did attack Wilson, there are circumstances in which it not only would be murder as a matter of law, but also would be a morally reprehensible act deserving of punishment.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 7:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Essentially disabling him? You're saying you don't know what happened and of course we don't... but that's the kind of predicate assumption (sorry, I don't know how else to put it) that people build on. And I'm not saying I haven't done it I'm just saying that you kind of lose me after that because I don't know that Michael Brown was ever essentially disabled until he was lying on that pavement... BUT... AND... beknighted.... I DO know that most often that's not considered the end of the threat by police officers... by a mile... not until the cuffs are on is that suspect in custody and under control.

So... a COP... who is excited, scared shitless, etc... who as already been attacked in his own vehicle by a really big dude who tried to take his gun... shots fired... I don't think that cop is going to assume that THAT guy is not a threat to him as long as he is moving.

I'm not a cop. I don't really like cops and I'd like to see a revolution in police procedures for dealing with citizens in the field. But if I were a cop and a guy came through the window of my vehicle trying to get my gun and shots were fired and then when I got out of the vehicle that guy didn't do an immediate face plant or follow instructions but continued to present a threat (which anything other than complete compliance to my instructions would indicate) I can't say I wouldn't have shot him until he went down and was no longer a threat. I wouldn't let the dude get away. I would consider (in my non-cop thinking) him to be an active deadly threat to me and to the public and to other officers who MUST be apprehended or stopped.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 7:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Washington Post is reporting that a half a dozen black eyewitnesses testified before the grand jury whose testimony was consistent with Officer Wilson's account of the incident.



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cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 11/24/14 7:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Indict him and let him tell his side of the story on the witness stand.

This drawn-out drama is bullshit.

As it is often said, "you can indict a ham sandwich". (although, i've never actually heard w/ what charge).



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 7:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
Indict him and let him tell his side of the story on the witness stand.

This drawn-out drama is bullshit.

As it is often said, "you can indict a ham sandwich". (although, i've never actually heard w/ what charge).


Deliciousness in a restricted diet zone.

I know what to charge a fucking ham sandwich with. Twisted Evil


Wink



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 9:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Smile


Ok, get to the damn decision for crissakes!



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pilight



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 9:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The cop is the only one armed and he should be trained in how to handle these situations. It is his responsibility to de-escalate things.



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Ex-Ref



Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: 11/24/14 9:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm thinking that it has to go to trial. Like was said earlier, get everything out in the open and let the grand jurors off the hook.


Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 9:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ex-Ref wrote:
I'm thinking that it has to go to trial. Like was said earlier, get everything out in the open and let the grand jurors off the hook.


WOW!!!!!!!!! Just saw the results.


cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 9:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

surprise surprise



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Genero36



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 9:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Trayvon Martin...Michael Brown...let the extinction of the black male continue. I see my life isn't worth a damn, but then I been knew that.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 9:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bullet struck inside drivers side door at a downward angle. That means that Michael Brown was a violent criminal who fought a cop inside his vehicle and tried to take his gun. Michael Brown stinks as a civil rights lightening rod.



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
Genero36



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 9:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Well Black Boys in America, you can't stand at your door holding a wallet, you can't wear a hood. you can't wear a white tee, You Just Can't.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 9:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
The cop is the only one armed and he should be trained in how to handle these situations. It is his responsibility to de-escalate things.


De-escalate what? An argument? A disagreement? lol. Oh that cops could de-escalate violent criminals who are on the rampage.



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
Genero36



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 9:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ABC News ‏@ABC 3h3 hours ago NEW: Michael Brown's family: "We are profoundly disappointed that the killer of our child will not face the consequence of his actions."


Genero36



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 9:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
surprise surprise


I hate how he thinks he needs to reprimand everyone because we "might not like the outcome." WTF, how dare you? Now he thinks he's a civil rights leader, I can't y'all.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 9:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Genero36 wrote:
Well Black Boys in America, you can't stand at your door holding a wallet, you can't wear a hood. you can't wear a white tee, You Just Can't.


I think you're right. The reason that is the case, however, is because people have long lumped everything into everything else. Guilty by the color of skin. Just as you're doing in attaching this stuff to the fact that, in my opinion, what seems like a heroic cop wasn't indicted for stopping a violent criminal. You're saying he's guilty because he's white and a cop. JMO.



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Genero36



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 9:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This report is basically a trial against Mike Brown. He never stood a chance. It's sad. From the moment that shop footage was released i could tell where it was heading. They vilified him and made it seem like he deserved to die. They did the SAME thing to Trayvon.

I'm sad right now. He chased after him and mowed him down and no charges?

I remember when they used to shoot you in the leg to stop you. Now they just shoot to kill.

Mike Brown isn't the first, and he won't be the last. This will happen year after year after year.


Genero36



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 9:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This mealy-mouthed MF came out and in depth dragged the witnesses for Michael Brown but when asked about the jury breakdown he has nothing to say?

Bullshit.


Genero36



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 9:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jelani cobb ‏@jelani9 6s7 seconds ago
Heard gunshots near police station. #Fergsuon


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 9:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Genero36 wrote:
This report is basically a trial against Mike Brown. He never stood a chance. It's sad. From the moment that shop footage was released i could tell where it was heading. They vilified him and made it seem like he deserved to die. They did the SAME thing to Trayvon.

I'm sad right now. He chased after him and mowed him down and no charges?

I remember when they used to shoot you in the leg to stop you. Now they just shoot to kill.

Mike Brown isn't the first, and he won't be the last. This will happen year after year after year.


Well what do you think of the store footage? What do you see? We know now that that officer, contrary to what we'd been told earlier, had TWICE heard of the convenience store theft, what was stolen, and had heard a description of the suspects and their clothing. All before he encountered Michael Brown. He also REPORTED seeing cigarillos in his hand.

DA is stating that all the witnessess who said that Michael Brown was charging at the officer when he was shot were ALL African American.

What if this is a good cop and a hero?



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
beknighted



Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 11/24/14 9:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Essentially disabling him? You're saying you don't know what happened and of course we don't... but that's the kind of predicate assumption (sorry, I don't know how else to put it) that people build on. And I'm not saying I haven't done it I'm just saying that you kind of lose me after that because I don't know that Michael Brown was ever essentially disabled until he was lying on that pavement... BUT... AND... beknighted.... I DO know that most often that's not considered the end of the threat by police officers... by a mile... not until the cuffs are on is that suspect in custody and under control.

So... a COP... who is excited, scared shitless, etc... who as already been attacked in his own vehicle by a really big dude who tried to take his gun... shots fired... I don't think that cop is going to assume that THAT guy is not a threat to him as long as he is moving.

I'm not a cop. I don't really like cops and I'd like to see a revolution in police procedures for dealing with citizens in the field. But if I were a cop and a guy came through the window of my vehicle trying to get my gun and shots were fired and then when I got out of the vehicle that guy didn't do an immediate face plant or follow instructions but continued to present a threat (which anything other than complete compliance to my instructions would indicate) I can't say I wouldn't have shot him until he went down and was no longer a threat. I wouldn't let the dude get away. I would consider (in my non-cop thinking) him to be an active deadly threat to me and to the public and to other officers who MUST be apprehended or stopped.


First, I'll quote pilight here:

plight wrote:
The cop is the only one armed and he should be trained in how to handle these situations. It is his responsibility to de-escalate things.


This is correct. Police are *supposed* to be trained that way. Lately, they're not (or at least they act like they're not), and that's a problem.

Second, I think I was pretty clear that I was positing a *hypothetical* scenario, which was no more or less hypothetical than your comment about "anything other than complete compliance."

On a somewhat different topic, I did not watch the performance of the DA, but from what I've read, he really couldn't have done much more to inflame passion in the Ferguson community. He spent an awful lot of time essentially saying that witnesses lied to the grand jury, for instance. That's not going to go over very well with some people.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 10:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Genero36 wrote:
Well Black Boys in America, you can't stand at your door holding a wallet, you can't wear a hood. you can't wear a white tee, You Just Can't.


Did this officer kill Michael Brown for wearing a hood? For wearing a white tee? For holding a wallet?

No. Michael Brown, a suspect (and the actual perpetrator) in a strong-arm robbery, DID climb into a police vehicle and fought with this officer inside his own vehicle.

Again, so what I think you're doing is taking all these other situations and saying this white cop in THIS unique situation is guilty of murder, BECAUSE he is white, and a cop, and Michael Brown was black.



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Last edited by jammerbirdi on 11/24/14 10:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: 11/24/14 10:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

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