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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 05/24/14 7:07 am    ::: Another Mass Shooting Reply Reply with quote

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/24/shooting-california-santa-barbara/9532405/


Getting a little tired of this. Crying or Very sad


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 05/24/14 1:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Honestly, when you think you've seen it all, comes something like this. You'll know what I'm talking about before long.

Just to tell you about how the story broke last night here in LA… I guess the shooting took place at around 9:30. On both the 10 and 11 PM newscasts there was just scant information. Drive-by shooting near the school at SB. One dead. Not much else. Wake up this morning to find out 7 people are dead.

Pathetic coverage of the story on television both locally and nationally. MSNBC, a cable news channel, is all in on the Pope. CNN, as of like 10 AM this morning, still had no name or the video of the shooter, which I watched in my bed, knowing both his name and who his parents were, by 7:45 AM. They also were only able to show a couple of cell phone images and a cell phone video of the sheriff's press conference last night.

Local TV is, of course, all Saturday morning kids shows and cartoons. Dare not interrupt any of that or the station won't get their lucrative kids programming commercial money.

Really extraordinary story though. Rich, erudite, spoiled to the point of displaying a Roman emperor's son's level of narcissism… with a little Dick Dastardly thrown in… can't get any love from the girls and, at 22 is a virgin, certainly not by preference, and he decides he's going to make them all pay by going out and shooting some blonde girls and maybe some guys who he thinks are getting all the good stuff.

He posted a video made the day before the shooting threatening to do this and why… it's in a way hard to take seriously at times… and that's probably the most important take away in the entire story… watch the guy…. listen to who he is, how he talks and thinks… because I wouldn't have pegged him to be the kind of person to actually murder six people and end his own life as well.



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
Richard 77



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PostPosted: 05/24/14 3:31 pm    ::: Re: Another Mass Shooting Reply Reply with quote

One would think someone would remove his Facebook page by this time.

He certainly wasn't an ugly boy by any means. If girls weren't attracted to him, it makes me wonder what his personality was really like or how he treated girls in the first place.

But you're only 22 years old. So what if you're a virgin, if that's what you're obsessing about constantly, that's not what being a human being is all about. If you live to be a virgin all your life, so what? It will never be the end of the world because you stay one, even if it's not of your own choice. Everyone has to live with rejection on a daily basis and most learn how to deal with that rejection. Shooting people is not an answer for your shortcomings or the situation you're in.

This boy obviously had no faith in those around him, or that things would get better in the future. There are people in this world who are worse off in life than this boy, and they don't go around killing others. They cope the best they can and keep hoping things will get better one day. Faith. It's a good word to believe in.

I agree with the narcissism aspect of the boy's character, his FB page is full of selfies.



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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 05/24/14 5:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

His Facebook page is creepy. And this transcript of his movie...wow. How did nobody know this guy had issues?



http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-transcript-ucsb-shootings-video-20140524-story.html


Luuuc



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PostPosted: 05/24/14 6:22 pm    ::: Re: Another Mass Shooting Reply Reply with quote

shyguy1701 wrote:
He certainly wasn't an ugly boy by any means. If girls weren't attracted to him, it makes me wonder what his personality was really like or how he treated girls in the first place.

When you consider that he killed a bunch of people, that kinda tells you what his personality was like!
Girls are remarkably perceptive at times. If you're an "I'm gonna go postal" type of person, they can sometimes pick up on that Wink



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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 05/24/14 7:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

OK, apparently his family did say something to the cops.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/24/shooting-california-santa-barbara/9532405/


sambista



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PostPosted: 05/26/14 6:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

poor, sick fcuk. you wonder if ANYTHING woulda stopped this guy. the shrink may have known that something would ignite his everyday fcukupedness, but what then? the only thing i did wonder about is whether sheriff's deputies are suitably trained to assess someone's mental state. (that's a rhetorical question.) but even if hotch and crew had met and profiled him, what then? they couldn't tail the guy for three years.

that laugh of his in the video - chilling. what word would you use for that? i guess that's your reference to dick dastardly, jammer. chilling.

yeah, i'd say the women he encountered possessed some special radar, unless he was in the habit of saying completely inappropriate things.



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TonyL222



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PostPosted: 05/27/14 6:19 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Why do our laws permit someone currently under mental care to buy guns?

That seems to be a common trait among several of the most recent mass shooters, if I'm not mistaken.


sambista



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PostPosted: 05/27/14 6:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

TonyL222 wrote:
Why do our laws permit someone currently under mental care to buy guns?

That seems to be a common trait among several of the most recent mass shooters, if I'm not mistaken.


yeah, seems there's always a shrink in the picture somewhere. and where's the national database that would tell the second gunshop that this guy had just bought a gun somewhere else? i'm not up on gun laws, and this is probably perfectly legal, but checks and checkpoints, please!

this is a really good read:

The rampage in Southern California that left six people dead last week has set off an anguished conversation about sexual violence that has reverberated around the country.
nytimes.com

Quote:
For many women here, the attacks were like a nightmare caricature of the safety concerns they deal with regularly on a campus where a high-profile gang rape recently prompted widespread concerns about safety and where an outsize reputation for alcohol-fueled parties led some to wonder if the beachside campus culture in any way played into the violence.

In dozens of interviews, women voiced concerns about incessantly hearing jokes about rape or what physical features make a woman desirable. At some parties, several women said, their buttocks have been grabbed at the entry door.



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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 05/27/14 9:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

TonyL222 wrote:
Why do our laws permit someone currently under mental care to buy guns?

That seems to be a common trait among several of the most recent mass shooters, if I'm not mistaken.


There's a part of me that agrees with you. Really, there is.

But then there's the part that says that HIPAA laws won't permit that to happen. I can't imagine any doctor would easily give up their patient list. And if they do, people would just stop going to get needed help. We'll never know how many of these shootings have been prevented because people got the help they needed before going off the deep end.

Also, half of the (murdered) victims were stabbed to death.




Last edited by Ex-Ref on 05/27/14 9:50 am; edited 1 time in total
PUmatty



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PostPosted: 05/27/14 9:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

TonyL222 wrote:
Why do our laws permit someone currently under mental care to buy guns?

That seems to be a common trait among several of the most recent mass shooters, if I'm not mistaken.


Part of the issue is how you define "under mental health care." Most people who see mental health professionals are not doing so because they are dangerous, just as most people who see physical doctors are not doing so because they have terminal illnesses.


TonyL222



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PostPosted: 05/27/14 11:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
TonyL222 wrote:
Why do our laws permit someone currently under mental care to buy guns?

That seems to be a common trait among several of the most recent mass shooters, if I'm not mistaken.


Part of the issue is how you define "under mental health care." Most people who see mental health professionals are not doing so because they are dangerous, just as most people who see physical doctors are not doing so because they have terminal illnesses.


Understood. But being under the care of a mental health professional should not in and of itself determine whether you are fit to own/purchase a good - but it should be a flag that more scrutiny is required.

In addition, this kid bought an arsenal at different locations and there is no database to link the multiple purchases would could have been a flag. again people are under more scrutiny to get a driver's license than to purchase a gun.

People have a right to have guns. But there should be some reasonable controls, IMO.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 05/27/14 11:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Being in the care of a mental health professional should preclude you from being able to purchase a firearm. I think we should start with that.



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 05/27/14 12:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Being in the care of a mental health professional should preclude you from being able to purchase a firearm. I think we should start with that.


How are you defining "care of a mental health professional"?


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 05/27/14 12:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Good article, sambista, I'd just read it before coming here. But there have been a lot of fascinating pieces written about the 'splash' the shooting has made in the broader culture of women, feminism, this heretofore unknown by me thing called PUA 'communities' online and I guess offline as well (PUA = Pick Up Artists, Rolling Eyes ) men's rights groups, both of the latter being safe havens apparently for outrageously misogynistic attitudes and behavior.

Such complicated stuff. No matter who you are, it's very difficult living in everyone else's world. I'm so very opinionated on this (and so many other) subjects but it's come to make less and less sense to enter the fray. No matter what you have to say or how well you say it you're just one tiny voice in what is now such a large spectrum of opinions. A person's experience, intellect, quality of thought, at this point it's almost all no more than a statistical point on a continuum.

Not quite that yet, but thinking along those lines is even the entire feminist response to this, which has been amazingly well articulated on Twitter, in The New Yorker, Salon, the New York Times and (quite controversially) in the Wasington Post.

Because if you take all of that together and add it up, when this is all over so few women in this country will have read any of it. These more vocal women, the more serious, enlightened, concerned, ideological, have to live in the same world with all of those women who are none of those things and so often quite the opposite.

They have to live not only with the idiot guys who themselves have to live in a sexually repressed country that nonetheless titilates the male population in high-definition while criminalizing and stigmatizing certain private behavior between consenting adults, which is an outrageously unhealthy reality, but these more serious women also have to live in the same world with their many millions of sisters who dress and make themselves up and comport themsleves almost entirely for the purpose of attracting the attention of men.

If those women are not just desperate for any man, and many are, they're desperate for a doctor or a hedge fund manager or a guy twice their age who lives a lifestyle they're never going to achieve any other way but through their attractiveness.

Well I've gone an done it anyway. Rolling Eyes



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 05/27/14 12:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Being in the care of a mental health professional should preclude you from being able to purchase a firearm. I think we should start with that.


How are you defining "care of a mental health professional"?


A check box on a form.



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
justintyme



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PostPosted: 05/27/14 12:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Being in the care of a mental health professional should preclude you from being able to purchase a firearm. I think we should start with that.


How are you defining "care of a mental health professional"?

Exactly. Under a broad definition, a rape victim who went to see a professional to try and sort through what had happened to them would not be able to purchase a firearm?

Or how about someone, like me, who has ADHD and has to see a "mental health professional" to get his medication?

Or how about the millions upon millions of people who see someone for mild depression?

One of the big problems with making a blanket policy is that it will discourage people from actively seeking help with their mental health. There is already enough of a social stigma that has to be overcome, to add new overt consequences would be dangerous.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 05/27/14 1:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

No law or change in existing requirements should be without nuance. And in the context of this hyper-politicized national battleground that exists with this issue, no law would be.

Remember we are talking about the ability to buy and possess a firearm, an item that it is up for serious and perpetual debate between reasonable people as to whether anyone should have a right to purchase or possess one.

I'm not really getting the concern that people who need mental health care would not seek it out because of a concern that they would lose their right to purchase firearms. I'm not getting that as a serious concern.

Given a person's history of confirmed treatment for any of a group of mental or emotional or even social behavior disorders (to be determined by someone not named or otherwise known as 'jammer', 'the jammer', 'jammerino', etc.) we as a society should deny those certain persons the ability to purchase and possess firearms. As I said, we should start with that.

I'm not going to write the law here this morning or subdivide the qualifying or disqualifying diagnosis or treatments etc. That's an unreasonable expectation of a citizen who is expressing a desire to take guns out of the hands of people who clearly should not have them.



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
norwester



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PostPosted: 05/27/14 1:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Being in the care of a mental health professional should preclude you from being able to purchase a firearm. I think we should start with that.


How are you defining "care of a mental health professional"?

Exactly. Under a broad definition, a rape victim who went to see a professional to try and sort through what had happened to them would not be able to purchase a firearm?

Or how about someone, like me, who has ADHD and has to see a "mental health professional" to get his medication?

Or how about the millions upon millions of people who see someone for mild depression?

One of the big problems with making a blanket policy is that it will discourage people from actively seeking help with their mental health. There is already enough of a social stigma that has to be overcome, to add new overt consequences would be dangerous.

I totally agree with this and also the things PUmatty was saying about the issue. There does not seem to be a clear way to draw the kind of line you're trying to draw here.

But as an aside, and forgive my ignorance, aren't psychologists required to report it somehow if a patient becomes a danger to themselves or others? I could be way off base, but I thought I'd remembered hearing that. If so, though, to whom do they report this? And what's the procedure then? If it's local police, do they do a search for registered weapons? Not that it's hard to legally have an unregistered weapon.

And a lot of these possible "solutions" that have to do with preventing purchase of a firearm in some way are impossible because of previous attempts to take away people's weapons throughout history, but certainly in the history of this country. It makes people paranoid. People don't want to be on a register somewhere as being shown to have a gun, or at least don't register all of their weapons, so that they can't all be taken away. And it's a legitimate push back, in my opinion.

So we find ourselves stuck in a quandary.



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norwester



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PostPosted: 05/27/14 1:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Anyway, the more interesting part of this story to me, rather than the tired gun control aspect, is the misogyny inherent in this kid's rants, and the shades of rape culture (i.e. a culture that normalizes harrassing women, or thinking of them as objects to be possessed or conquered).

I've read some really interesting articles, and some frightening responses from those corners of the internet jammer points out (men's rights, etc.). I was going to say "darker" corners of the internet, but are they really? There's a certain tolerance in this country for how men treat women. There is behavior that is seen as "normal" versus programmed. Even jammer refers to it in context that seems to be along the lines of "well, what do we expect?"

I wonder that too, but I wonder it in the context of why aren't we more conscious of what we try to do to mitigate poor behavior. Why are there tons of seminars for female freshman and how to protect themselves, but there aren't the same types of information readily available teaching young men that women are as important as individuals as men are, and where the lines are of acceptable behavior? A women shouldn't have to fake a boyfriend in a bar to get rid of an unwanted suitor, because the man recognizes the claim of another man more than that of a woman to her own body and agency. This is something both men and women are aware of, but I wonder how conscious they are of it...it certainly can't change without discussion.

There are a lot of issues here. I'd like to see more done to address the mental health aspect, and more tools for families who worry their members are going to do something. But again, I always worry about the line, and go to the place of some poor gay kid getting involuntarily committed in a conservative district, and that gives me pause every time.



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TonyL222



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PostPosted: 05/27/14 1:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Being in the care of a mental health professional should preclude you from being able to purchase a firearm. I think we should start with that.


How are you defining "care of a mental health professional"?

Exactly. Under a broad definition, a rape victim who went to see a professional to try and sort through what had happened to them would not be able to purchase a firearm?

Or how about someone, like me, who has ADHD and has to see a "mental health professional" to get his medication?

Or how about the millions upon millions of people who see someone for mild depression?

One of the big problems with making a blanket policy is that it will discourage people from actively seeking help with their mental health. There is already enough of a social stigma that has to be overcome, to add new overt consequences would be dangerous.


As I alluded to, it would only be a "flag". The mental health provider would then be contacted and asked only to state/check whether he/she believed the individual could pose a threat to him/her self or others. In your examples, the answer is likely to be "no" and the purchase could proceed. Would make the process longer, but so what?

I don't own a gun - but I personally would have no reservation about my gun ownership being registered. What is the big fu##in' deal!!???

An yes, mental/mental/spiritual professionals are okay to report those they believe to be a danger to themselves and/or to others. But we see how that is working. We can't keep doing nothing because of how hard it may be. Start with SOMETHING and refine it over time.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 05/27/14 2:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yes, many many aspects to this story, many that have just been beaten into the ground where it appears they will stay until the next time.

In the entire breadth and width of this matter, from the event to the responses to it in all circles, only one thing, one solitary element of this whole thing is not like the others. It alone is a force of nature. A biological compulsion. Like hunger or the need to make potty. That thing which is not like the others is male sexual desire. Writ large? Uh... how does half the world's population work for you?

One of the women interviewed in the New York Times article, a student at UCSB, is a feminist studies major. The writers at Salon, the New Yorker, and I'm sure in many other places, including on Twitter, identify themselves as feminist writers. From that perspective, what they see and what they focus on are ideological reasons for this shooters actions, and how they were a seemingly Inevitable outgrowth of the misogyny, hatred towards women, and sense of entitlement over women's bodies, that they feel exists within much of the male population.

And they're not really wrong about what they're saying. I think one of the things that so many of us have a hard time wrapping our minds around is the sheer numbers that we are talking about when we talk about these things. Because now we're talking about everybody. Hundreds of millions of people in this country alone. All swaths, cultures, groups, economic levels, everyone.

I'm afraid that the actual debate that this situation has created, if it is a debate, maybe it's better to think of it as a discussion, is occurring within such a small sliver of the population.

But before there was this shooting, the discussion that has followed it, the eye opening to the fringe (we can only hope) of losers who hate women because they won't have sex with them ... you have heard me say here over and over again through the years that we're a sexually repressed country filled with men and boys who are extremely frustrated sexually and that we all (not just women) live with the damage that situation creates.

Hyper sexualized media and, if you live somehwere like a college town on the coast of California, thousands of living breathing half-naked sexual objects moving all around you, and yet absolulty no actual outlet for that biological desire.

This is but one really weird and extraordinarily violent outcome. Rapes. Abductions. Assaults. Molestations. Peeping toms and hidden cameras. Subway gropings. I'm sure I'm leaving out scores of other horrors.



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norwester



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PostPosted: 05/27/14 2:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

But if it was just a compulsion due to things being hypersexualized, why do these things still happen in countries where women are required to be covered from head to toe at all times? Like certain Muslim countries. Is this a part of your sexual repression argument?

I have no doubt that there's tons of sexual repression in this country. We seem to have a weird relationship with it, which is also probably part of the homophobia that holds on, in my opinion. But boiling it down to only sexual repression/desire forgets the power element of the equation. Where it doesn't matter what a woman is wearing, she's seen as an object to exert your will over.

Apart from sexual repression, there's a notion that men (particularly white men born as white men) are losing their rights. I guess this comes from a perceived erosion of privilege? But I think it makes certain population segments lash out. And when you couple that (or equate it?) with mental disease? Maybe everyone but white men should be allowed to own weapons. Wink



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 05/27/14 8:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't want to come off with attitude… believe me I don't… but I just want to say that it's painful, especially when there's an emotionally and politically charged incident, to have to straighten out one's own opinion after it seems to have been fed through a Randomizer or something. It's just a couple of small paragraphs and sentences and I know there's no ill will or intent.

But I'm looking at this response, norwester, and I'm estimating that it could take me an hour (that I don't have) to clarify what I've said from how it has been repackaged. But they're my thoughts and if I don't do that work… then this alternative reading of my opinion on this incredibly delicate matter becomes an unquestioned part of the record.

norwester wrote:
But if it was just a compulsion due to things being hypersexualized….


So. I didn't say anything was 'just a compulsion DUE to things being hypersexualized.' And what Is the 'it' that you're referring to as 'just a compulsion' in this incident? The shooting? OMG. This guy was a megalomaniacal misfit and the product of a uniquely entitled West Coast Hollywood culture that allowed him to develop this dangerously narcissistic perspective. He's a poster boy for entitlement yes but we can't ever forget that he is above all other things a mass murderer who killed four men and two women and by all accounts could be seen smiling while he did it. As was discussed in I think the most controversial Washington Post article, he's like an awkward amalgam of movie villains from this current era of big budget comic book adaptations.

norwester wrote:
why do these things still happen in countries where women are required to be covered from head to toe at all times? Like certain Muslim countries. Is this a part of your sexual repression argument?


Why do WHAT 'things still happen in countries where women are required to be covered from head to toe at all times'? College campus mass shootings by megalomaniac hard ons from privileged backgrounds? I don't think those things happen in Muslim countries at all but I could be wrong and I just choose not to respond to what goes on in those countries or to accept that it's been incorporated into, yes, I guess I own it now, my sexual repression argument.

The point I was trying to make which I probably didn't do a good job of, was that there are a lot of things going on here. But of all those things, there is one thing that is different from all the other things. Different in that it is a basic biological need that is, as I've said before, more akin to hunger and the need to go to the bathroom than it is to emotional illnesses or intellectual or ideological hatred or the need to have power or dominance or anything else like that.

So you have this force of nature. Universal. Half of the human race is under the power of this force of nature. And then you have all this stuff that is honestly the RESPONSE of many cultures and societies on this planet TO this force of nature that is male sexual desire. They cover women head to toe in Muslim countries. Even in this country many religions dictate modest dress for women. You have ALL these stories coming out in the wake of this shooting of young women and ALL that they do to try to mitigate their risk of falling victim to sexually aggressive males … what did the one say in the NYTimes, saying 'no' is but the beginning of the negotiation. Give fake phone numbers instead of just turning a guy down, and on and on.

We have vice squads and activities of those elements to keep prostitution under control. Groups that try to keep strip joints out of their neighborhoods. Vice that go into strip joints undercover to make sure lap dances are just that and no more. Without any of that, what would happen? We all know what would happen. There would be traffic problems on city streets as men by the thousands hit the 'tracks' where they could find prostitutes every single night of the week. Strip joints would be whore houses and they would need larger parking lots.

norwester wrote:
I have no doubt that there's tons of sexual repression in this country. We seem to have a weird relationship with it, which is also probably part of the homophobia that holds on, in my opinion. But boiling it down to only sexual repression/desire forgets the power element of the equation. Where it doesn't matter what a woman is wearing, she's seen as an object to exert your will over.


I ain't boiled 'nuthing (I still don't know what that thing is we're talking about) down to some other thing. Didn't even go into the kitchen. There has been a tremendous outpouring from serious women that focuses an emphasis on the larger cultural and ideological forces at work in society that they seem to feel fosters and bolsters the Eliot Rodgers and I am supportive of their anger and their fighting back and that they are choosing to focus on all this hateful sick bullshit that really is out there. Can we attach that to my username here? Because that too is my opinion.

What they are not doing, however, is appreciating (bad word choice probably) or at least not adequately representing (I guess they don't really need to or sould be expected to) or attributing Rodgers being who he was, linking it strongly enough, to his long term sexual frustrations and desperation. Rodgers himself was unambiguous and very convincing in at least that bit of self-diagnosis and self-awareness. His frustrated sexual desires were as much a part of who he was and ended up being as anything else in his story.

Those sexual frustrations, the aching need for intimacy (he said all he ever wanted to do was love women) inside that otherwise sick fuck is a universal human condition. Men want intimacy. If we're heterosexual we want it with women and that is an extremely strong emotional compulsion that goes hand in hand with basic sexual needs.

You mention the power thing. That's an overblown, in my opinion, ideological perspective and one that seeks to apply some social psychological answer to why men sexually attack women. We've had this argument many times before here I can't do it again. Men do what they do because they want to have (make) sex with someone and they aren't going to take no for an answer. The might often have developed a shit load of hostility because the hot girls or any other girls don't want them and they might even have gone ideological themselves in their hostility. Justifying it and attaching all this anti-women shit to it and that inevitably becomes a central focus of women's groups and feminists and psychologists, etc. But one day these men, CRIMINALS, realize that they are, in fact, more physically powerful than these women who elude them so they decide either as a hobby or in the moment of opportunity to TAKE what they want. It looks like a power trip. It looks like hatred of women which it probably by that time has morphed into. But all of it exists in the first place due to basic sexual compulsions that are going unsatisfied.

A hard-on tells the truth. And you can quote me on that. You don't call up an erection as a soldier in your war against women. Not at any age. It's way more like a problem that has to be solved. It starts way down in your toes and it has at some time or another half the population of the planet earth banging their heads against a wall or trying to fuck their sofas. Anyway. I digress. 'Cool'

norwester wrote:
Apart from sexual repression, there's a notion that men (particularly white men born as white men) are losing their rights. I guess this comes from a perceived erosion of privilege? But I think it makes certain population segments lash out. And when you couple that (or equate it?) with mental disease? Maybe everyone but white men should be allowed to own weapons.


I don't have answers. I don't believe there are answers. Partial solutions. Yes, maybe. There are things that could have prevented this incident. Different things might have prevented other incidents. But here's the thing. If you try to over think all this and calculate society's solutions based on each and every incident, you're never going to get anything done.

So let's start right here. Let two or more consenting adults do whatever they want (in terms of sexuality, intimacy, etc.) whenever they want, however they meet, in private, without fear of the law. Give people that freedom. Shut the fuck up about prostitution, legalizing it, uh… controlling it, taxing it, etc. Just decriminalize it and stay the hell out of people's private business. Take any laws (and law enforcement) off the books that intrudes or infringes upon the ability of adults to meet, talk to each other, go where they want to go together and do whatever it is they want to do.

Use laws and law enforcement to prevent people from turning women out. Trafficking, pimping, etc.

I just want to say, hey, I DO love me some norwester. But please, anybody reading this thread, read my own words, they are certainly controversial enough and difficult to defend on their own. Please don't take or make interpretations of them at face value (that I don't even understand) and expect me to answer to those as well. Because this took WAY longer than an hour.



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beknighted



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PostPosted: 05/27/14 8:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Mental health professionals do have a duty to act when they conclude that the person under their care is a danger to others. (The specific incident that created that duty was in California, if memory serves me correctly.) That's a pretty high bar, though - if someone says "Sometimes I just wish I could shoot the people who are causing my problems," as opposed to "I've bought a gun and I'm going to get that guy tomorrow," there probably is no duty to act.

I think one reason the bar is high is to avoid discouraging people from getting help, which is as it should be. Also, we don't want to mess with the doctor/therapist-patient privilege any more than the minimum necessary.


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PostPosted: 05/27/14 9:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Kristen Mann (former UC Santa Barbara Gauchos player), tweeted:

Quote:
Kristen Mann ‏@dreamingtree44 · May 24
Thoughts & prayers 2 those involved in the Isla Vista shooting last night. Thinking of my fellow Gauchos! 🙏



And from Kayte Christensen's Twitter page:



Crying or Very sad


norwester



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PostPosted: 05/28/14 10:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Sorry, jammer, I wasn't trying to attack you. I got that you're pro-feminist backlash (or however we want to describe it). It's just that some of your phrasing about men wanting to have sex mirrors or mimics some of those who try to disparage the backlash, or justify the violent actions of men, so perhaps you struck a chord with me. Confused

Meanwhile, we're in total agreement about what two consenting adults should be able to do in privacy. I don't know why we care so much in this country. Prohibition has not been shown to be a useful tool for combatting what people will do anyway...as you've said there are certain biological urges that cannot be denied.

I think a lot of this "morality" screws up a bunch of stuff. I mean, I brought up gay marriage. Frankly I don't know why we care about plural marriage. Some man or woman wants more than one wife or husband? Or a husband and wife? Big deal!

We should also legalize drugs, in my opinion, though that's kind of a tangent.

But maybe not. I wish we could get away from the whole criminal/morality/incarceration thrust to our legal system, and put that money into coming at it from a mental health/mental disease perspective. But I guess that's too hard to tackle? Meanwhile, we'll continue to have incidents like this.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 05/28/14 6:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

norwester wrote:
Sorry, jammer, I wasn't trying to attack you. I got that you're pro-feminist backlash (or however we want to describe it). It's just that some of your phrasing about men wanting to have sex mirrors or mimics some of those who try to disparage the backlash, or justify the violent actions of men, so perhaps you struck a chord with me. Confused


That's cool. Explanation there is I think when the issues on either side (not implying there is a 'side' to the story for a mass murderer) are often universal… men need sex… women should be safe in their lives… that just espousing anything at all along those lines can put some aspect of a person's position in agreement with aspects of either group's thoughts.

This has, like so many of the latest dust ups, been an education and so my opinions on some things are evolving as I learn more about what's actually going on in our world.

For instance, I had no idea there was something called PUAs and PUA (Pickup Artists) communities online. I saw advertisements promising to help a guy pick up any girl or make any girl want to have sex with you instantly… but I see advertisements promising nine inch ding dongs. I don't take them seriously and I never imagined that enough guys had clicked on those ads and had become wannabe practitioners of 'game' to have formed actual online communities … uh… like OURS. Message boards, etc.

Now I've clicked on a Salon article and had my eyeballs popped again. There's apparently other online communities made up of something called Incels. Short for involuntary celibates. Shocked

Everything to follow is copied and pasted from the article.

Arrow

In a recent post on Love-shy.com, a forum for the dateless and sexless, the man wrote, “I am seriously thinking about just getting a gun and shooting everything up,” he said. “I fantasize about it everyday … that’s how fucked up my mind is.” The truly “fucked up” thing is that this isn’t another newly discovered online posting from Elliot Rodger, the 22-year-old who went on a shooting rampage Friday, killing six people. These are just the words of yet another angry man on the Internet expressing rage at society — especially women — over his own celibacy.

The poster continued, “I think if I do end up going on a mass shooting spree it will be due to the mental damage/stress from being isolated from meaningful human contact for too long. If/when that ever happens, can I really be blamed for murder if I’ve lost my mental faculties to judge right from wrong?” He goes on to say of the infamous mass murderers of recent years, “Quite a lot of those shooters weren’t crazy.”

To be sure, this poster isn’t representative of male virgins, just as Elliot Rodger isn’t the spokesperson for all men who identify as “involuntarily celibate” (“incels” for short). But sympathy for Rodger, and strikingly similar ideologies, are disturbingly common in the online communities for “love-shy” and incel men. PUA Hate, the site where Rodger shared his resentment about being a self-described incel has been taken down amid the current media frenzy, but plenty of similar sites remain.

http://www.salon.com/2014/05/27/inside_the_terrifying_twisted_online_world_of_involuntary_celibates/



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Richard 77



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PostPosted: 05/29/14 5:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I read the article. Still feeling no sympathy for men (or women) who are involuntary celibate. "It's somebody else's fault I'm celibate..." seems to be the running mantra in the debate. What do they mean, "meaningful relationship?" Don't they have family? Don't they have friends? Don't they have co-workers? Meaningful relationships don't necessarily include sexual activity. But they're so twisted with the idea that they're not getting sex on a regular or daily basis it has convoluted their thought process and stupidly makes them believe (opinion) that revenge through violence is their only way they can restore their prowess and self-respect. A lot of hooey on their part (opinion).

I know what its like to be involuntary celibate. I found a lot of better things to do than obsess over it.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 05/29/14 5:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

http://jezebel.com/lessons-from-a-day-spent-with-the-ucsb-shooters-awful-f-1582884301

Quote:
why can't i fuck a virgin 16-18 year old. i am entitled to this



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PostPosted: 05/29/14 7:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
http://jezebel.com/lessons-from-a-day-spent-with-the-ucsb-shooters-awful-f-1582884301

Quote:
why can't i fuck a virgin 16-18 year old. i am entitled to this


I can't read that shit, pilight. I tried. It's like my eyes (or something) can't focus on it. I'm having a hard time sorting it out as someone's real thoughts. I've heard the feminists who have been reacting to this shooting using the word 'entitled' in saying that this shooter and like-minded sexually frustrated and misogynistic young men feel they are 'entitled' to women's bodies… and honestly I thought they were simply appropriating the word to help advance their (mostly) valid points. But to see some fucked up dude actually use the word himself in saying he's entitled to have sex with a young girl?

I'm just having a hard time. This isn't about individuals. Something BIG has happened to a LOT of people. We've been warning for almost two decades that computers and the internet was eroding the part of life that involves human interaction. Has that actually snuck up on us all in the form of vast swaths of the population wanting to put women in cages? Because it's like a pathogen was introduced into society. These guys are a huge block, it SEEMS. Like they're all locked in a virtual prison camp together united in their isolation from female companionship and DOOMED to permanently stay there.

Or is it really just a small fringe group that is being given all this attention at this time because of the shooting and the reactions to it?

When I got my first HD TV and signal… and I saw the HD shows and commercials… and it's only gotten more and more universal… I'm sure I said it here but if I didn't I sure have been saying to anyone else who would listen… this is a new level of stimulation and there's got to be just a shitload of men out there who aren't handling it very well. Even the color of clothes and skin now in the photography. Close-ups. Incredibly attractive and alluring and seductive images of women whose looks stand up to HD scrutiny. I could FEEL a difference myself watching TV. I told mrs jammer that (something like) if there are scruffy sex offenders out there in the high desert watching the same shit we're watching… they're cutting off their ankle monitors.

So you combine that level of visual stimulation with guys who grew up attached to their computers who have no ability to relate to or BE a companion to a young woman, drop all of that into a country where sex is impossible to get on an at need basis for those guys and where being horny and on the prowl is tantamount to criminal or at least creepy behavior… it's a bad situation to say the least.

But I don't get the group derangement where they're talking about this controlled sex utopia or that they're entitled to sex with young girls. Shocked



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pilight



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PostPosted: 05/29/14 7:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Actually, jammer, I think you have the role of the internet backwards. Lots of young men go through a phase where they feel like these guys. In the past they've (almost) always grown out of it because they haven't been able to articulate it for fear of social stigma. Now they've found other like minded dolts online and they reinforce each other's misguided sense of misogyny.

Really, though, you're on the right track when you say...

Quote:
Or is it really just a small fringe group that is being given all this attention at this time because of the shooting and the reactions to it?


The sensationalism of the media makes it seem far worse than it really is. Remember 20 years ago when they were all caught up in the fear of "superpredators"? How we were in for a massive increase in violent crime? Instead, violent crime rates fell off a cliff in the late 90's and are now at historically low levels.



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PostPosted: 05/29/14 8:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't know. I think it could be a little of this and a whole lot of that. Maybe, hopefully, not so many of these guys but my fear is that there are a lot. Swaths.

It also just occurred to me that that Rodger might have chosen this school for the Isla Vista social life which is apparently famous for hooking up with SoCal coeds. If he went there for that purpose and found himself perpetually spurned by the women there…



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
sambista



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PostPosted: 05/29/14 9:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

meanwhile, in another part of the world . . .

Utah high school slammed for secretly Photoshopping yearbook photos to make girls less sexy



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Howee



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PostPosted: 05/29/14 11:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Actually, jammer, I think you have the role of the internet backwards. Lots of young men go through a phase where they feel like these guys. In the past they've (almost) always grown out of it because they haven't been able to articulate it for fear of social stigma. Now they've found other like minded dolts online and they reinforce each other's misguided sense of misogyny.

Really, though, you're on the right track when you say...

Quote:
Or is it really just a small fringe group that is being given all this attention at this time because of the shooting and the reactions to it?


The sensationalism of the media makes it seem far worse than it really is. Remember 20 years ago when they were all caught up in the fear of "superpredators"? How we were in for a massive increase in violent crime? Instead, violent crime rates fell off a cliff in the late 90's and are now at historically low levels.


Can something like this incident *seem* more terrible than it really is?? I mean, yes, it really IS quite terrible. But I get your point, pilight, and couldn't agree more. Maybe it's more accurate to say it seems more PREVALENT than it really is (instead of using the word "terrible"). As horrific as the event was, and as disgusting as that website's 'revelations' are, it is an extraordinarily small percentage of our population that operates this way, though the highlighted media attention makes it feel like it's inevitable in every town and city across the nation.

I still say the only surprising thing is that incidents like this (and Aurora and Sandy Hook, ad nauseum) don't happen MORE often, given the sheer numbers of weapons and crazies wandering freely in our land. The Dark-Hearted have always been among us, but nowadays, they have commanded far more of our attention.



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norwester



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PostPosted: 05/30/14 12:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Your Princess Is in Another Castle: Misogyny, Entitlement, and Nerds

Another article on media and culture and perhaps how misogyny endures, or thoughts of entitlement that arise are reinforced? But most disturbingly (because it's real) how accepted as normal certain behaviors are, to the point that they aren't critiqued by the larger part of either women or men.
Quote:
I’ve heard and seen the stories that those of you who followed the #YesAllWomen hashtag on Twitter have seen—women getting groped at cons, women getting vicious insults flung at them online, women getting stalked by creeps in college and told they should be “flattered.” I’ve heard Elliot Rodger’s voice before. I was expecting his manifesto to be incomprehensible madness—hoping for it to be—but it wasn’t. It’s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto, except for the part about mass murder.

I chose this quote, and bolded the last part, because there's another discussion going on about media in this whole thing, and it's about how when a white male does a shooting everyone automatically cries "mental illness" in a way we do not see when a male of other religious or genetic backgrounds perform similar attrocities. It's easy to define this act as mental illness, but is it actually mental illness, or just a form of extemism?
Quote:
And yet. When this story broke, the initial mainstream coverage only talked about “mental illness,” not misogyny, a line that people are now fervently exhorting us to stick to even after the manifesto’s contents were revealed. Yet another high-profile tech CEO resignation ensued when the co-founder of Rap Genius decided Rodger’s manifesto was a hilarious joke.



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sambista



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PostPosted: 06/02/14 3:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

just finished reading a piece about this kid's troubled past, and this photo of him is more chilling than anything. little wonder women had a special sense about him. it's in those eyes, like he's not of this world, that some key marbles are missing or cracked.




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norwester



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PostPosted: 06/02/14 6:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ted Talk about Violence Against Women

It focuses on violence and the seeds of violence in male peer culture, and what the speaker calls the "bystander" approach, where a bystander is anyone not the victim or the abuser. He talks about how men not speaking up and calling their peers out, or those in power not calling their subordinates out, for sexist remarks like they might for racist remarks, is a failure of leadership.

It was an interesting male perspective, just briefly touching on male culture, and how those in power (let's say "white males" for one example) sort of erase the existence of other groups by automatically assuming "women's issues" or "race issues" or "gender issues" or "sexuality" as not applying to them. And therefore they don't have to listen or address it.

I thought it was worth a watch.



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sambista



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PostPosted: 06/02/14 8:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

that was pretty nice. not as powerful as the writer/presenter intimated, maybe because i'm fortunate to be surrounded by mostly enlightened people who are NOT bystanders. but it was interesting seeing the "cognitive structure" of our social mindset represented on paper. that was the thing that was new and different for me.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 06/04/14 10:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
But I don't get the group derangement where they're talking about this controlled sex utopia or that they're entitled to sex with young girls. Shocked


It is the #1 reason admitted rapists commit that crime internationally:

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS2214-109X(13)70069-X/abstract

Quote:
sexual entitlement 73·3%



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PostPosted: 06/04/14 12:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Would you agree that there is a difference between the reason someone wants to do something, and the reason that they ultimately go through with it? Insert that thinking here. And attitudes towards women around the world are so horribly backwards it's hard to associate them with attitudes of American college kids. But I guess it could be an influencing factor. The more you teach them about the plight of women around the world, I guess, the more unpredictable the reaction might be in certain twisted minds.



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
pilight



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PostPosted: 04/27/18 1:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Saint Elliot Rodger and the 'Incels' Who Canonize Him

https://jezebel.com/saint-elliot-rodger-and-the-incels-who-canonize-him-1825567815

Quote:
Alek Minassian cited Elliot Rodger as a kind of hero before he drove a rented van onto a busy Toronto sidewalk, killing 10 people on Monday. “All hail the Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger!” Minassian wrote in a now-deleted Facebook post.



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