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pilight



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PostPosted: 10/03/13 7:42 pm    ::: Awards by draft class Reply Reply with quote



2004 becomes only the second class to reach double digit 1st team All WNBA mentions, following 2001.

2008 and 2005 each pick up a 1st team All Defense nod to move into a tie for second all time with 1998. 2001 is far, far ahead of the pack here. 2004 is racking up 2nd team All Defense mentions, now up to eight, also behind only 2001.

2009 grabs a third MIP, tying them for first all time with 2001.

2012 is still shut out of All WNBA mentions, joining 2005 and 2007.

2001 snags a third Perrot award, moving them into a tie with 1998 and 2003 for second All Time behind 1999.



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PostPosted: 10/03/13 7:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

are we to deduce from this information that 2001 was the best ever (so far) draft class in the history of the WNBA? kinda makes you wonder what went wrong after that...



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PostPosted: 10/03/13 8:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LilyJadeRose wrote:
are we to deduce from this information that 2001 was the best ever (so far) draft class in the history of the WNBA? kinda makes you wonder what went wrong after that...


2001 and 1999 are the top two. The incredible depth of the 1999 class doesn't show as much here. 2001 was surely the best draft at the top. No class is likely to match 1999's All Star appearances.

There were no All Defense teams until 2005, putting the older classes at a disadvantage. 2001 might very well have put those total completely out of reach if the awards had existed earlier. 6th woman is even worse, not existing until 2007. MIP was first awarded in 2000.



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PostPosted: 10/03/13 8:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think another thing this excellent chart shows (great work, as usual, pilight) is that the talent flows in cycles, not in a steady stream.

There are up years and down years, and in terms of this year's draft, the strength at the top should make it an up year. I'm not as convinced about next year in terms of elite players, though I like the depth.



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PostPosted: 10/03/13 8:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Props to the originals, who success on that chart is carried by Leslie, Cooper & Swoopes. I'd take those three over anyone.


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PostPosted: 10/03/13 8:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

...and great job, as usual Pilight.


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PostPosted: 10/04/13 3:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

To some extent, the originals have a natural advantage; by definition, they had no earlier classes to compete against, so for the first few years, they were going to dominate the awards because there were only a handful of rookies to compete against. The 2001 class, meanwhile, is absurd -- Penny Taylor was the 11th pick, and it's not like there were any real busts ahead of her. The only players in the top 11 not to make an all-star team were the Miller twins and Sveta Abrosimova, and all three of them had, at worst, solid careers.



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PostPosted: 10/04/13 12:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

JKFecke wrote:
To some extent, the originals have a natural advantage; by definition, they had no earlier classes to compete against, so for the first few years, they were going to dominate the awards because there were only a handful of rookies to compete against. The 2001 class, meanwhile, is absurd -- Penny Taylor was the 11th pick, and it's not like there were any real busts ahead of her. The only players in the top 11 not to make an all-star team were the Miller twins and Sveta Abrosimova, and all three of them had, at worst, solid careers.


Leslie and Swoopes won multiple MVP and DPOY awards from 2001 -

So, they competed against anyone in their way and won.


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PostPosted: 10/04/13 1:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nice job pilight.

This table shows what I expected. As WNBA is growing older it becomes
difficult for rookies to win annual awards other than rookie of the year.
Soon we will see it difficult for rookies to make starting lineups on a full
time basis.

Now, if the WNBA were to add teams it will be necessary for the new
teams have the ability to draft players from existing teams. Otherwise
the new teams will be terrible and will not be competitive.

Like the pic of the dog pilight.


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PostPosted: 10/04/13 3:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

UofDel_Alum wrote:
Like the pic of the dog pilight.


He was a great pet



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PostPosted: 10/04/13 10:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Great work pilight, as ever!

I think we should keep in mind that many of "the originals" had been pro players for a few years before their entry into the WNBA. The experience and confidence they gained from playing in Europe and elsewhere cannot be underestimated. There wasn't a pro game learning curve that we've seen with many draftees since.
As I look over the chart, it seems like maybe there are a few less than fantastic draft classes, but most have representation on the all-star team, and all defensive 1st & 2nd teams.
For the rest of the draft classes, I believe all is not lost; there is still time to garner awards and accolades, as games are maturing and playing time increases.

cheers!
ster


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PostPosted: 10/04/13 10:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

i wonder,

what other awards should be given at the end of the season that aren't now?
what awards shouldn't be given, once you really think about it?



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PostPosted: 10/04/13 10:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LilyJadeRose wrote:
i wonder,

what other awards should be given at the end of the season that aren't now?
what awards shouldn't be given, once you really think about it?


I don't think there is any need for a defensive second team or for a rookie team.


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PostPosted: 10/04/13 11:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

UofDel_Alum wrote:
Like the pic of the dog pilight.


Whenever a new team enters the WNBA an expansion draft a held, but there are rules that prohibit the new team from drafting big time players, in 2008 each teams could protect up to 6 players, the Dream could select one player from each team based on the list they submitted, and they had the option of selecting one unrestricted free agent who they could core. As has been seen in the past, with the Dream and with the Sky as they are the more recent expansion teams, just picking players from a current team doesn't mean anything unless they can pick up a big time player, but with teams allowed to protect up to 6 players, it's not like the new team will be getting a player they could build a team around, or even a solid core of players to make them competitive immediately.



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PostPosted: 10/04/13 11:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ster II wrote:
Great work pilight, as ever!

I think we should keep in mind that many of "the originals" had been pro players for a few years before their entry into the WNBA. The experience and confidence they gained from playing in Europe and elsewhere cannot be underestimated. There wasn't a pro game learning curve that we've seen with many draftees since.
As I look over the chart, it seems like maybe there are a few less than fantastic draft classes, but most have representation on the all-star team, and all defensive 1st & 2nd teams.
For the rest of the draft classes, I believe all is not lost; there is still time to garner awards and accolades, as games are maturing and playing time increases.

cheers!
ster


I can understand that argument for a draft class that has been in the WNBA 3 or less years, but I'm not sure you could use that argument for a draft class like say 2000 or 2003, yes going into the WNBA they players were mainly rookies, and had no experience going into the WNBA, but since they entered the WNBA and played overseas for a few years that argument wouldn't make any sense. For the class of 2003, in 2003, 2004, 2005 that would make perfect sense, but in 2013, that doesn't make as much sense.



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PostPosted: 10/04/13 11:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
LilyJadeRose wrote:
i wonder,

what other awards should be given at the end of the season that aren't now?
what awards shouldn't be given, once you really think about it?


I don't think there is any need for a defensive second team or for a rookie team.


I agree about the Defensive 2nd team, I think it should just be the best 5 defenders but I kind of like the rookie team, I think it rewards rookies for having a solid season, especially since they are coming into the league straight out of college (for the most part), but I don't think it should be more than 5 players, unless of a time of course.



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PostPosted: 10/05/13 8:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ster II wrote:
As I look over the chart, it seems like maybe there are a few less than fantastic draft classes, but most have representation on the all-star team, and all defensive 1st & 2nd teams.
For the rest of the draft classes, I believe all is not lost; there is still time to garner awards and accolades, as games are maturing and playing time increases.


There is one draft class and one set of awards each season. It follows, therefore, that the average draft class will win one each of MVP, DPY, MIP, 6OY, Perrot, and Finals MVP plus five each of All WNBA 1st, All WNBA 2nd, All Defense 1st, and All Defense 2nd. As for All Star games, we get those in about 2/3 of our seasons and there are 22 roster spots each time, so the average draft class will get about 15. A draft like 2001, which has exceeded expectations (sometimes by enormous margins) in 10 of the 11 categories, has to be considered a great draft. One like 2004, which has exceeded expectations in four and met them in two others is a good draft.



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PostPosted: 10/06/13 2:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
ster II wrote:
As I look over the chart, it seems like maybe there are a few less than fantastic draft classes, but most have representation on the all-star team, and all defensive 1st & 2nd teams.
For the rest of the draft classes, I believe all is not lost; there is still time to garner awards and accolades, as games are maturing and playing time increases.


There is one draft class and one set of awards each season. It follows, therefore, that the average draft class will win one each of MVP, DPY, MIP, 6OY, Perrot, and Finals MVP plus five each of All WNBA 1st, All WNBA 2nd, All Defense 1st, and All Defense 2nd. As for All Star games, we get those in about 2/3 of our seasons and there are 22 roster spots each time, so the average draft class will get about 15. A draft like 2001, which has exceeded expectations (sometimes by enormous margins) in 10 of the 11 categories, has to be considered a great draft. One like 2004, which has exceeded
expectations in four and met them in two others is a good draft.



I get how there's one draft class each year and one set of awards per year but I'm having a hard time understanding how and why, "It follow, therefore, that the average draft class will win one each of ... " Really??! Where's that written? Does that happen in other sports? Happen in the NBA? Just wondering...


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PostPosted: 10/06/13 3:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ster II wrote:
pilight wrote:
ster II wrote:
As I look over the chart, it seems like maybe there are a few less than fantastic draft classes, but most have representation on the all-star team, and all defensive 1st & 2nd teams.
For the rest of the draft classes, I believe all is not lost; there is still time to garner awards and accolades, as games are maturing and playing time increases.


There is one draft class and one set of awards each season. It follows, therefore, that the average draft class will win one each of MVP, DPY, MIP, 6OY, Perrot, and Finals MVP plus five each of All WNBA 1st, All WNBA 2nd, All Defense 1st, and All Defense 2nd. As for All Star games, we get those in about 2/3 of our seasons and there are 22 roster spots each time, so the average draft class will get about 15. A draft like 2001, which has exceeded expectations (sometimes by enormous margins) in 10 of the 11 categories, has to be considered a great draft. One like 2004, which has exceeded
expectations in four and met them in two others is a good draft.



I get how there's one draft class each year and one set of awards per year but I'm having a hard time understanding how and why, "It follow, therefore, that the average draft class will win one each of ... " Really??! Where's that written? Does that happen in other sports? Happen in the NBA? Just wondering...

It's just raw maths. One draft class and one set of awards per year, so the average has to be one each (for awards that have existed since the beginning, obviously). Some will obviously win more than others, but the mean average has to end up as one.



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PostPosted: 10/06/13 9:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I believe experience, playing ability, hard work, and perhaps being fortunate to be drafted by a team on the rise, goes into if one receives a year-end award, all-star nod, or a team honor. I see no correlation that a given draft class "should" garner x amount of honors. It really depends on the draft. You can see in the NBA how many of the same players become all-stars year after year, and a small circle of players are chosen for individual honors. An interesting exercise might be to see in each draft class, how many draftees made a team? How many did not? How do those #s change year 2,3,4, etc. for example, in year x, 28 players were drafted. Of those, 16 made rosters. How many draftees played in the w in year 2,3,4,etc.

ster


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PostPosted: 10/06/13 10:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ster II wrote:
An interesting exercise might be to see in each draft class, how many draftees made a team? How many did not? How do those #s change year 2,3,4, etc. for example, in year x, 28 players were drafted. Of those, 16 made rosters. How many draftees played in the w in year 2,3,4,etc.

ster


Pilight does something similar to that, he post those numbers periodically throughout the season.

Here is the thread where he last posted that info. (the most recent info is at the bottom, he started the thread in 2011)

http://boards.rebkell.net/viewtopic.php?t=67463&highlight=draft



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PostPosted: 10/06/13 11:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ster II wrote:
I see no correlation that a given draft class "should" garner x amount of honors.


Nobody is saying that. Pilight and Richyyy are pointing out that if you add up the total number of, say, MVP awards given in the history of the league, and divide by the number of draft classes, the result will be exactly one. Same for MIP, DPOY, and so forth. For All-WNBA first team it will be 5. And so on. The mean says nothing about how the data are distributed.


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PostPosted: 09/13/14 9:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote



The class of 2005 gets two on the first team All Defense to move all alone into second place!

2012 gets an All WNBA nod, leaving 2005, 2007, and 2014 as the only classes to have none.

2013 gets an All Defense nod, leaving 1997, 2000, and 2014 as the only classes with none. The awards didn't exist until 2005, putting those early classes at a disadvantage.

2001 has no All WNBA team members for the first time since their rookie season.



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PostPosted: 10/17/15 12:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote



Notes

The class of 2009 gets two on the first team All Defense to move all alone into second place!

1999 gets yet another Perrot award, continuing their domination. This might be the final award for that incredible class.

2001 scrapes out one more All WNBA slot. Their total of 31 appears unbreakable.

2013 is the first class to have all of its top three picks get a first team All WNBA slot.



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PostPosted: 10/17/15 3:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:


2001 scrapes out one more All WNBA slot. Their total of 31 appears unbreakable.



2001 has also had five different players (Jackson, Catchings, Nolan, Douglas, and Taylor) who all made All WNBA first team. That also seems pretty unlikely to happen again.


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PostPosted: 10/18/15 11:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:

2001 has also had five different players (Jackson, Catchings, Nolan, Douglas, and Taylor) who all made All WNBA first team. That also seems pretty unlikely to happen again.

Delle Donne, Diggins, Griner, Meesseman and Bentley/Bone all making 1st team at some point in their career seems within the realms of posssiblity.



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PostPosted: 10/22/16 8:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

2016 update




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PostPosted: 10/09/17 12:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

2017 Update




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PostPosted: 10/09/17 4:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight, do you happen to have the tally of which Class has the most rings?
Thinking 2004 has to be at/near the top on the backs of Brunson, Whalen & Taurasi alone Question



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 5:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

MNfan22 wrote:
pilight, do you happen to have the tally of which Class has the most rings?
Thinking 2004 has to be at/near the top on the backs of Brunson, Whalen & Taurasi alone Question


23 2004
21 1999
21 2001
15 1998
12 2000
12 2005
11 2002
11 2008
11 2011
9 1997
9 2006
9 2009
6 2003
6 2007
6 2010
5 2014
4 2012
3 2013
3 2016
2 2015
2 2017

The originals (players from 1997 who were not drafted) have 33
1997 includes both the regular draft and the elite draft



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 9:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
MNfan22 wrote:
pilight, do you happen to have the tally of which Class has the most rings?
Thinking 2004 has to be at/near the top on the backs of Brunson, Whalen & Taurasi alone Question


11 2011


I count 12 for the Class of 2011
Here is my breakdown
Moore 4
Harris 2
Wright 2
Christmas 1
Jarry 1
Lavender 1
Pohlen 1



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 10:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
pilight wrote:
MNfan22 wrote:
pilight, do you happen to have the tally of which Class has the most rings?
Thinking 2004 has to be at/near the top on the backs of Brunson, Whalen & Taurasi alone Question


11 2011


I count 12 for the Class of 2011
Here is my breakdown
Moore 4
Harris 2
Wright 2
Christmas 1
Jarry 1
Lavender 1
Pohlen 1


Ewelyna Kobryn has the other one. She was an undrafted rookie in 2011 and won a title with the 2014 Mercury.



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PostPosted: 10/10/17 1:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Shades wrote:
pilight wrote:
MNfan22 wrote:
pilight, do you happen to have the tally of which Class has the most rings?
Thinking 2004 has to be at/near the top on the backs of Brunson, Whalen & Taurasi alone Question


11 2011


I count 12 for the Class of 2011
Here is my breakdown
Moore 4
Harris 2
Wright 2
Christmas 1
Jarry 1
Lavender 1
Pohlen 1


Ewelyna Kobryn has the other one. She was an undrafted rookie in 2011 and won a title with the 2014 Mercury.


Oh crap. Wright is from 2010.

I'm not sure what would be the point of adding free agents who could be signed any year. The point should be seeing how draft classes do.



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PostPosted: 10/10/17 9:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
2017 Update



The USA numbers for 2001 are particularly impressive when you consider that the number does not include the international play of a World Champion MVP or the possible GOAT.


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PostPosted: 10/10/17 9:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
I'm not sure what would be the point of adding free agents who could be signed any year. The point should be seeing how draft classes do.


It's the easiest way to account for them



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