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Terra1969
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
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 Posted: 08/17/13 3:45 pm ::: Russia's anti-gay law.... |
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| I wonder if openly gay WNBA players and closeted players will continue to play for Russian teams? OR will they opt out and play for other counties?
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 08/17/13 4:09 pm ::: |
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Many have already signed to play there in the upcoming offseason. Peters, Bonner, G.Johnson, T.Johnson, Toliver, Charles, Augustus, Dupree, Ogwumike, Brunson, Whalen, Prince, Nolan, Bird, Taurasi and Parker are all on their way to various teams.
It's hard to blame them - there just aren't that many places to go to be well paid to play women's basketball - but it could be really awkward at times. Hopefully it won't be dangerous or result in any problems with the authorities at any point. |
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/17/13 4:24 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
Many have already signed to play there in the upcoming offseason. Peters, Bonner, G.Johnson, T.Johnson, Toliver, Charles, Augustus, Dupree, Ogwumike, Brunson, Whalen, Prince, Nolan, Bird, Taurasi and Parker are all on their way to various teams.
It's hard to blame them - there just aren't that many places to go to be well paid to play women's basketball - but it could be really awkward at times. Hopefully it won't be dangerous or result in any problems with the authorities at any point. |
I can think of a whole bunch of problems off the top of my head. I certainly hope Seimone's not planning on bringing her fiancee. Or mentioning her existence.
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Terra1969
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| Posted: 08/17/13 5:01 pm ::: |
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| Or Brunson....those who live their fighting for gay rights are being treated horribly
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MuneravenMN
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| Posted: 08/17/13 5:12 pm ::: |
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| Honestly, I wouldn't go. Some things are more important than money when you have enough money to feed your family and be safe.
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Terra1969
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| Posted: 08/17/13 5:15 pm ::: |
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| Or taking a stance against an unfair law..
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010
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| Posted: 08/17/13 6:48 pm ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
Many have already signed to play there in the upcoming offseason. Peters, Bonner, G.Johnson, T.Johnson, Toliver, Charles, Augustus, Dupree, Ogwumike, Brunson, Whalen, Prince, Nolan, Bird, Taurasi and Parker are all on their way to various teams.
It's hard to blame them - there just aren't that many places to go to be well paid to play women's basketball - but it could be really awkward at times. Hopefully it won't be dangerous or result in any problems with the authorities at any point. |
I can think of a whole bunch of problems off the top of my head. I certainly hope Seimone's not planning on bringing her fiancee. Or mentioning her existence. |
I doubt the teams are making a problem out of it. Off the court and in public places is a whole other issue though
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 08/17/13 7:39 pm ::: |
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| What's happening in Russia is hideous and very distressing. And it could be downright dangerous for ANY women's basketball player from the U.S. Certainly possible that bigots in Russia might target any of these women as being gay, whether it's true or not.
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PhoenixxLily
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| Posted: 08/17/13 8:22 pm ::: |
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i expressed my opinion in this thread already: http://boards.rebkell.net/viewtopic.php?t=76921
but i can do it again (there is also a lovely rebuttal from Barrister15)
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and forget a contract. there are ways out of them. all wnba players currently playing on russian teams should end their contracts and look to other countries. they are prized commodities so they should have no trouble finding a team. none of them are safe whether they are gay or not. the way this law is written... they want total suppression along with persecution. you can't even speak positively of any person gay, lesbian, or other. what's missed is that the "positive" speak doesn't necessarily mean about gays or their rights specifically. how often do we see american politicians turn something someone says into meaning something completely different? it's not hard to do and is done all the time, and the Russian government has perfected the art. the potential for scapegoating and example making is too high. we've seen russia do this before.
if someone wants to make a point, all it would take to set off a very awkward international incident between the US and Russia would be, for example, if Becky Hammond praised Seimone Augustus on her game play. (no idea if Becky still plays in Russia but still.) if someone has an axe to grind they make that a huge deal. and with the vaugeness of the written law simply saying something positive about a gay person could be grounds to imprison them... if you stretch your explanation far enough. and it's not hard to do. "well, obviously the american was taunting us and making another point. this is what she was actually saying".
i say they all should get out now. |
i'd also like to add that the U.S. reaction to Russia's law is weird, awkward, and feels insincere in general. we can barely do the right thing ourselves |
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coffy73
Joined: 24 Sep 2009
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| Posted: 08/17/13 9:09 pm ::: |
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| I just dont see a lot of pro athletes trying to make waves when it affects their money. The same could be said about China, but many are still choosing to play there and ignoring the plight of human/animal rights in that country. It's like many athletes are just about playing and that's it; it would surprise me if a lot of them do take a stand in Russia.
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JACKOWACKO
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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| Posted: 08/17/13 9:38 pm ::: |
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| Money talks... inner-feelings walk.
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GEF34
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| Posted: 08/17/13 9:42 pm ::: |
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| coffy73 wrote: |
| I just dont see a lot of pro athletes trying to make waves when it affects their money. The same could be said about China, but many are still choosing to play there and ignoring the plight of human/animal rights in that country. It's like many athletes are just about playing and that's it; it would surprise me if a lot of them do take a stand in Russia. |
I agree to an extent, I'm sure there are some athletes who don't "care" in the sense that they are going to make waves, but they may have inner feelings about it that they share with their friends/family/etc. But I think it may cause some athletes to think twice about wanting to play in Russia. And if it's some lesser known athletes, who just decide to sign in Turkey instead of Russia and don't say that is why no one is going to know, nor would people question the move or think that is why they chose to play in Turkey.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 08/17/13 9:53 pm ::: |
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| coffy73 wrote: |
| I just dont see a lot of pro athletes trying to make waves when it affects their money. The same could be said about China, but many are still choosing to play there and ignoring the plight of human/animal rights in that country. It's like many athletes are just about playing and that's it; it would surprise me if a lot of them do take a stand in Russia. |
The analogy to China makes no sense. Yes, there are many athletes--and non-athletes--who don't care about the human rights of some group of people that they're not part of. So U.S. athletes playing in China may not care about how the Chinese government treats its citizens.
But we're talking here about women's basketball players and THEIR OWN human rights as well as their concern or lack of concern regarding the rights of people in Russia. Some of these women's basketball players are openly gay. Some are closeted. Some are heterosexual but support LGBT rights. And, in my view, every one of them is now taking a serious risk by playing in Russia because bigots on the street who see tall women who look like basketball players--many of them African American--are going to assume that these players are lesbians, whether it happens to be accurate or not.
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PhoenixxLily
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| Posted: 08/17/13 10:15 pm ::: |
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Bob Lamm makes a point. and if some shit does go down, do you really think the U.S. is going to step in at all let alone willingly? yes Obama has been a great asset and help with LGBT rights, but he's only got so much political capital on the matter and with so many other fires burning, badly, i'm not so sure. that's why you've seen the Obama administration, seemingly, drag its feet on certain issues. not enough political capital and too many other fires burning at the same time.
the conversation about this is going to get really awkward really fast as far as the U.S. goes. (we already saw this in Africa, but as it's Africa and no one gives a damn anyway it was easy to ignore and skate past. definitely can't ignore and skate past Russia) it really depends on who implodes first. us or them.
i know there's money involved and pride and opportunity to play, career etc... but still. personally, though i'd have a higher stake in the matter than some, if it were me i'd find a way out of my contract. find a non russian country or just stay in America. money doesn't out weigh a potentially embarrassing international incident/political scapegoating |
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coffy73
Joined: 24 Sep 2009
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| Posted: 08/17/13 10:20 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| coffy73 wrote: |
| I just dont see a lot of pro athletes trying to make waves when it affects their money. The same could be said about China, but many are still choosing to play there and ignoring the plight of human/animal rights in that country. It's like many athletes are just about playing and that's it; it would surprise me if a lot of them do take a stand in Russia. |
The analogy to China makes no sense. Yes, there are many athletes--and non-athletes--who don't care about the human rights of some group of people that they're not part of. So U.S. athletes playing in China may not care about how the Chinese government treats its citizens.
But we're talking here about women's basketball players and THEIR OWN human rights as well as their concern or lack of concern regarding the rights of people in Russia. Some of these women's basketball players are openly gay. Some are closeted. Some are heterosexual but support LGBT rights. And, in my view, every one of them is now taking a serious risk by playing in Russia because bigots on the street who see tall women who look like basketball players--many of them African American--are going to assume that these players are lesbians, whether it happens to be accurate or not. |
Why does it not make sense regarding China? Human rights is human rights and some of China's own people can't stand up and fight back against what they see as wrong and inhumane treatment. That's worth fighting for as well. As for Russia, it has a big nationalist/far right problem, so much so that many non-white residents like visiting students, immigrants have been beaten/harassed/murdered and this has been going on for a long time now. Not to mention the 'Pussy Riot' issue, which would cause me to think twice about playing in Russia.
I'm just saying many athletes ignore political/sensitive issues and just play and collect their money. I don't see any of these women forgoing those big paychecks to make a point and besides, they're probbly gonna be well protected and guarded when walking the streets of Russia, unlike the poor gay russian citizens.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 08/17/13 10:26 pm ::: |
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| coffy73 wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| coffy73 wrote: |
| I just dont see a lot of pro athletes trying to make waves when it affects their money. The same could be said about China, but many are still choosing to play there and ignoring the plight of human/animal rights in that country. It's like many athletes are just about playing and that's it; it would surprise me if a lot of them do take a stand in Russia. |
The analogy to China makes no sense. Yes, there are many athletes--and non-athletes--who don't care about the human rights of some group of people that they're not part of. So U.S. athletes playing in China may not care about how the Chinese government treats its citizens.
But we're talking here about women's basketball players and THEIR OWN human rights as well as their concern or lack of concern regarding the rights of people in Russia. Some of these women's basketball players are openly gay. Some are closeted. Some are heterosexual but support LGBT rights. And, in my view, every one of them is now taking a serious risk by playing in Russia because bigots on the street who see tall women who look like basketball players--many of them African American--are going to assume that these players are lesbians, whether it happens to be accurate or not. |
Why does it not make sense regarding China? Human rights is human rights and some of China's own people can't stand up and fight back against what they see as wrong and inhumane treatment. That's worth fighting for as well. As for Russia, it has a big nationalist/far right problem, so much so that many non-white residents like visiting students, immigrants have been beaten/harassed/murdered and this has been going on for a long time now. Not to mention the 'Pussy Riot' issue, which would cause me to think twice about playing in Russia.
I'm just saying many athletes ignore political/sensitive issues and just play and collect their money. I don't see any of these women forgoing those big paychecks to make a point and besides, they're probbly gonna be well protected and guarded when walking the streets of Russia, unlike the poor gay russian citizens. |
It's very simple. "Human rights is human rights." No, that's wrong. There are lots of people who don't care about OTHER PEOPLE'S human rights but who DO care about their own. That may not be entirely admirable, but it's the truth.
It's not "making a point" when it's YOUR OWN human rights. Or your own safety. (You keep ignoring the basic issue of safety: women basketball players in Russia--whether gay or straight--will now face greatly increased risk on the streets.)
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PhoenixxLily
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| Posted: 08/17/13 10:59 pm ::: |
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gay or straight, Russia is not a very safe place right now if you don't agree with the government's line.
i think it's unfair to say a player doesn't care if they choose to still play in russia. the government isn't the same as the people they come into contact with on a daily basis while playing in russia. so there are more reasons other than money for a person to still play. i think the risk is too high but to each their own.
and it's a lot to ask a person to stick their necks out and put their safety and well being in jeopardy even if it's the "right thing to do". it doesn't mean they don't care or want a favorable outcome. it's alot to ask for and very well may be too much. honor the courage when people do, but don't call them cowards when they don't. it's tough and dangerous and there are no easy or simple answers. |
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Rock Hard
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
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| Posted: 08/17/13 11:49 pm ::: |
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| I know that this is an old but it is better to be safe than sorry. Gays and lesbian people are attacked in the USA every year and our country has laws to protect all citizens. When a law is written that does not protect a specific segment of your country it gives bigots carte blanche to do whatever their twisted minds tell them to do.
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coffy73
Joined: 24 Sep 2009
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| Posted: 08/17/13 11:57 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| coffy73 wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| coffy73 wrote: |
| I just dont see a lot of pro athletes trying to make waves when it affects their money. The same could be said about China, but many are still choosing to play there and ignoring the plight of human/animal rights in that country. It's like many athletes are just about playing and that's it; it would surprise me if a lot of them do take a stand in Russia. |
The analogy to China makes no sense. Yes, there are many athletes--and non-athletes--who don't care about the human rights of some group of people that they're not part of. So U.S. athletes playing in China may not care about how the Chinese government treats its citizens.
But we're talking here about women's basketball players and THEIR OWN human rights as well as their concern or lack of concern regarding the rights of people in Russia. Some of these women's basketball players are openly gay. Some are closeted. Some are heterosexual but support LGBT rights. And, in my view, every one of them is now taking a serious risk by playing in Russia because bigots on the street who see tall women who look like basketball players--many of them African American--are going to assume that these players are lesbians, whether it happens to be accurate or not. |
Why does it not make sense regarding China? Human rights is human rights and some of China's own people can't stand up and fight back against what they see as wrong and inhumane treatment. That's worth fighting for as well. As for Russia, it has a big nationalist/far right problem, so much so that many non-white residents like visiting students, immigrants have been beaten/harassed/murdered and this has been going on for a long time now. Not to mention the 'Pussy Riot' issue, which would cause me to think twice about playing in Russia.
I'm just saying many athletes ignore political/sensitive issues and just play and collect their money. I don't see any of these women forgoing those big paychecks to make a point and besides, they're probbly gonna be well protected and guarded when walking the streets of Russia, unlike the poor gay russian citizens. |
It's very simple. "Human rights is human rights." No, that's wrong. There are lots of people who don't care about OTHER PEOPLE'S human rights but who DO care about their own. That may not be entirely admirable, but it's the truth.
It's not "making a point" when it's YOUR OWN human rights. Or your own safety. (You keep ignoring the basic issue of safety: women basketball players in Russia--whether gay or straight--will now face greatly increased risk on the streets.) |
The non-white players and visitors to Russia have also been dealing with increased risk on the streets, but that hasn't bothered any of those players in Russia yet. I think that's a big problem too and I think this newer gay issue is just another thing for them to be aware of but not something that's gonna be in the way of their livelihood. It's not that they don't care, I'm sure they do, it's just a pro vs. con thing when it comes to making the big bucks.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 08/18/13 12:20 am ::: |
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| coffy73 wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| coffy73 wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| coffy73 wrote: |
| I just dont see a lot of pro athletes trying to make waves when it affects their money. The same could be said about China, but many are still choosing to play there and ignoring the plight of human/animal rights in that country. It's like many athletes are just about playing and that's it; it would surprise me if a lot of them do take a stand in Russia. |
The analogy to China makes no sense. Yes, there are many athletes--and non-athletes--who don't care about the human rights of some group of people that they're not part of. So U.S. athletes playing in China may not care about how the Chinese government treats its citizens.
But we're talking here about women's basketball players and THEIR OWN human rights as well as their concern or lack of concern regarding the rights of people in Russia. Some of these women's basketball players are openly gay. Some are closeted. Some are heterosexual but support LGBT rights. And, in my view, every one of them is now taking a serious risk by playing in Russia because bigots on the street who see tall women who look like basketball players--many of them African American--are going to assume that these players are lesbians, whether it happens to be accurate or not. |
Why does it not make sense regarding China? Human rights is human rights and some of China's own people can't stand up and fight back against what they see as wrong and inhumane treatment. That's worth fighting for as well. As for Russia, it has a big nationalist/far right problem, so much so that many non-white residents like visiting students, immigrants have been beaten/harassed/murdered and this has been going on for a long time now. Not to mention the 'Pussy Riot' issue, which would cause me to think twice about playing in Russia.
I'm just saying many athletes ignore political/sensitive issues and just play and collect their money. I don't see any of these women forgoing those big paychecks to make a point and besides, they're probbly gonna be well protected and guarded when walking the streets of Russia, unlike the poor gay russian citizens. |
It's very simple. "Human rights is human rights." No, that's wrong. There are lots of people who don't care about OTHER PEOPLE'S human rights but who DO care about their own. That may not be entirely admirable, but it's the truth.
It's not "making a point" when it's YOUR OWN human rights. Or your own safety. (You keep ignoring the basic issue of safety: women basketball players in Russia--whether gay or straight--will now face greatly increased risk on the streets.) |
The non-white players and visitors to Russia have also been dealing with increased risk on the streets, but that hasn't bothered any of those players in Russia yet. I think that's a big problem too and I think this newer gay issue is just another thing for them to be aware of but not something that's gonna be in the way of their livelihood. It's not that they don't care, I'm sure they do, it's just a pro vs. con thing when it comes to making the big bucks. |
How exactly do you know that bigotry on the streets "... hasn't bothered any of those players in Russia yet"? Are you a close friend of all of these players? Have you done lots of off-the-record interviews where you feel sure the players have been honest with you? Or is it because they haven't made any public statements talking about distressing incidents? (When, in fact, they may have been pressured by their teams to keep silent.)
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RedEqualsLuck
Joined: 28 May 2005
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| Posted: 08/18/13 1:09 am ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
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The non-white players and visitors to Russia have also been dealing with increased risk on the streets, but that hasn't bothered any of those players in Russia yet. |
Did I miss where there was a new law passed by Russia banning advocating for the rights of folks with non-white skin?
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 08/18/13 2:40 am ::: |
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| RedEqualsLuck wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
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The non-white players and visitors to Russia have also been dealing with increased risk on the streets, but that hasn't bothered any of those players in Russia yet. |
Did I miss where there was a new law passed by Russia banning advocating for the rights of folks with non-white skin? |
Something very wrong here. The sentence quoted above beginning "The non-white players and visitors to Russia...." was NOT written by me. In fact, I specifically criticized that view in a statement just above.
I stand by every word that I myself wrote in this discussion. But that quote is NOT mine.
Bob Lamm
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UofDel_Alum
Joined: 10 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 08/18/13 8:13 am ::: |
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| This issue is just beginning and is only going to get worse for the Russian political figures. Just yesterday two women Russian olympic 4 x 100 runners kissed after receiving their gold medals. They said it was in response to Russian laws. I hope and pray they will be unharmed when they go back to Russia.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 08/18/13 10:07 am ::: |
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| UofDel_Alum wrote: |
| This issue is just beginning and is only going to get worse for the Russian political figures. Just yesterday two women Russian olympic 4 x 100 runners kissed after receiving their gold medals. They said it was in response to Russian laws. I hope and pray they will be unharmed when they go back to Russia. |
Very brave of these Russian track stars to take a stand in the public eye. There are many news stories about this. Here's one:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/08/18/russia-gay-law-controversy-athletes-kiss.html
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patsweetpat
Joined: 14 Jul 2010
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| Posted: 08/18/13 10:59 am ::: |
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| The WNBA stars who travel to Russia are employed by extremely wealthy and powerful magnates, many of whom have strong connections in the government (those players' own salaries, incidentally, are subsidized by the Russian government). And those players are, in large part, sheltered and protected by those powerful employers. So I think these WNBA stars will find themselves in far, far, far less danger (vis a vis this law) than your average, disempowered Russian dissident or activist.
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