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LaLafan
Joined: 10 Sep 2012
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 Posted: 10/05/12 9:24 pm ::: I missed the LA v MINNY game |
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| Why was Nneka on the bench for much of the game? I saw Anosike had 12 minutes. WHY on earth would that ever make sense? Unless Nneka was injured which I have not heard.
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jammerbirdi
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LaLafan
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| Posted: 10/05/12 9:48 pm ::: |
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| I still think you have to go with your best players and simply tell them to play better. Bringing Nicky off the bench for me in a final is just about as random as activating Sheryl Swoopes out retirement. It's the western conference finals. You ride the horses that got you there - and that definitely was not your bench which is last in the league in every category that matters (and if there was a position behind last, LA's bench would be there)
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jammerbirdi
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| Posted: 10/05/12 9:56 pm ::: |
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| Personally, I agree. But Anosike actually didn't play too badly. Seriously. I don't know how she ends up playing that much this early in this important of a series... but... it could have been much worse if she too had been a disaster. And we don't definitively know really what facilitated her getting so many minutes. I think when the coach sees Nneka struggling or not being successful out there she has a tendency to pull her maybe to prevent Nneka to start feeding into the idea that she's playing bad. Let her regroup on the bench.
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LaLafan
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| Posted: 10/05/12 10:01 pm ::: |
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| Thanks for the update. Sometimes players struggle but then are able to pick it up. Nneka struggled at Stanford on occasions but she was able to do other things to contribute. THen again, Ross has benched Nneka before for absolutely no reason. Ross is probably one that goes with her "gut" despite it making any sense. I suppose if Anosike played, that means Candace had to go out and guard Maya Moore for a stretch which is sounds bad on paper. Candace can't guard Maya outside on the perimeter.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 10/05/12 10:16 pm ::: |
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| LaLafan wrote: |
| I suppose if Anosike played, that means Candace had to go out and guard Maya Moore for a stretch which is sounds bad on paper. Candace can't guard Maya outside on the perimeter. |
That would be part of why Maya shot 5-5 in the fourth quarter.
As to your original question, honestly LA were just getting their asses handed to them in the second quarter and start of the third. So Ross started searching around for anything that would work. And the lineup that finally started getting somewhere was one without Nneka in it, so her minutes ended up shorter than usual. Honestly don't think there was much more to it than that.
But 2 rebounds in 23 minutes isn't exactly demanding more time on the floor, either. |
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LaLafan
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| Posted: 10/06/12 12:00 am ::: |
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| And I guess my point is that Ross has searched all year on that bench. There is noone on that bench. You will not win a game this year or any other year against a team like Minny with Anosike logging more than a couple of minutes. You can only beat Minny with Nneka and Candace doing alot of good things. Ross needs to get into Nneka's face, the leader Candace Parker needs to get in her grill, Delisha Milton Jones needs to pull her aside, and you straighten her out, but I think Nneka's earned the benefit of the doubt. We went through a stretch where Parker had games where she looked to be sleepwalking but Parker still got the benefit of the doubt.
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jammerbirdi
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| Posted: 10/06/12 12:12 am ::: |
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| LaLafan wrote: |
| And I guess my point is that Ross has searched all year on that bench. There is noone on that bench. You will not win a game this year or any other year against a team like Minny with Anosike logging more than a couple of minutes. You can only beat Minny with Nneka and Candace doing alot of good things. Ross needs to get into Nneka's face, the leader Candace Parker needs to get in her grill, Delisha Milton Jones needs to pull her aside, and you straighten her out, but I think Nneka's earned the benefit of the doubt. We went through a stretch where Parker had games where she looked to be sleepwalking but Parker still got the benefit of the doubt. |
Well, again, I hear you on Nneka. That's a player I'd want out there 40 minutes unless I was up by double digits. I do think the coach is more protective of Nneka as a rookie than she is doubting her or punishing her for mistakes or lack of effort or anything like that. I think she wants to yank Nneka before Nneka can get into the mindset that she's having a bad game.
Lamenting LA's bench, which is a great pastime around here, with the talent on that ball club... existing in a league where many teams can't put even five first-rate starters out there, let alone superstars and Olympic gold medalists, it's not something I get so much. I mean, it's not like it's someones FAULT. lol. At least in my opinion. It's not like the NBA where they have 30 teams with 15 practicing players and the infinite possibiliites for personnel changes and choices that creates, plus the D-League and oh yeah, a zillion high schools to keep an eye on, etc. Not to mention the months of time during the actual season to evaluate your team and take stock of what's out there make your choices and plans and execute them all before the trade deadline that comes 3 plus months into the season.
This is this coach's first season, too. First season with the GM also. Anyway. Eventually you come up against something bigger and better than what you have at this point in time. Not saying the Sparks can't win their next two games. They can win this. They're going to have to shoot lights out and make the Candace to Nneka connection work. Defend the perimeter.
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ClayK
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| Posted: 10/06/12 11:41 am ::: |
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As a coach, it's always a tough call when one of your better players is struggling in a big game. Do you stick with them and hope they'll get it together? That's easier to do if you're winning or hanging in there, but if you're starting to fall behind, it's difficult to just sit there and watch the same five that are getting you in a hole dig it even deeper.
So as someone noted, you try your first sub, and see if she can pick up the pace a little. Things get worse -- so you can put the starter back in, or give someone else a shot. And Anosike comes in and plays well (three of six from the field, four rebounds in 12:38 (Ogwumike had two in 22:49), one assist (Nneka had none) and one turnover (Nneka had two)).
If Anosike struggles, then Nneka goes right back in, but it's not as if Anosike is a completely horrible basketball player. At her best, she's fine, and she was pretty close to her best -- and Nneka was pretty close to her worst.
But it's always a tough call, one way or another. Sometimes as a coach you feel you need to do something, anything, rather than just watch a game slip away -- and maybe it would actually be better to do nothing. In the end, though, you never really know ...
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LaLafan
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| Posted: 10/06/12 12:02 pm ::: |
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I hear you and in some ways, I am at a disadvantage and probably completely wrong because I've only seen the first quarter and a half. And as soon as I saw Candace and Anosike out there and candace having to come all the way out on the perimeter against Maya Moore, the Sparks can't win that way and I would think that would be obvious to Coach Ross. Yes, the Sparks have to score but they have to stop Minny from scoring, too.
It's like they kept trying that on ball pick and roll with Tolliver as if something was going to work out eventually. No, it's not going to work out. It didn't work out during the season when Tulsa hard doubled on that pick and roll against Tolliver, when Minny hard doubled on that pick and roll and it won't work out now in the Western Conference finals. And the Sparks knew it was coming, Tolliver knew it was coming and she did was she always does, make horrible decisions. I haven't seen the entire game but in the first quarter and a half, they seem content with the same results. No adjustments for something they knew was going to happen, and something that Tolliver struggles mightily with and has struggled throughout the season. There are so many other options available than running on ball pick and rolls with Tolliver. She is your leading scorer and you have to find other ways for her to get her shot off.
I really think this is LA's last shot for awhile. You have a banged up Whalen. You have Griner coming into not only the league but the Western Conference to join forces with Taurasi and Taylor. Everyone has a better bench than they do (even Tulsa). Parker's knees and overall health are on the clock. Milton-Jones is on the clock. This is the year if they want to do it. There should hopefully be a greater sense of urgency within the organization. LA will not sniff a Western Conference final in the next few years unless they get another Parker-like #1 pick in the next two seasons.
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ClayK
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| Posted: 10/06/12 12:38 pm ::: |
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Good points about strategic adjustments on the pick-and-roll -- but the biggest problem I see is that Minnesota is the better team. They have more talent, and more time in the same system.
Coaches can only do so much, especially in their first year. After three years, it's a lot easier to say "OK, we're adjusting our basic pick-and-roll in these two subtle ways" and the players can do it. In the first year, often the players are still trying to really get settled in the basic motion. (Yes, these are professionals, but there's also no real training camp and not much practice time.)
And again, position by position, Minnesota is overall just better -- and usually the better team wins.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 10/06/12 2:19 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| Coaches can only do so much, especially in their first year. After three years, it's a lot easier to say "OK, we're adjusting our basic pick-and-roll in these two subtle ways" and the players can do it. In the first year, often the players are still trying to really get settled in the basic motion. (Yes, these are professionals, but there's also no real training camp and not much practice time.) |
But when the main adjustment is "stop fecking running it", that should be pretty easy to get across  . |
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jammerbirdi
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| Posted: 10/06/12 2:24 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
Good points about strategic adjustments on the pick-and-roll -- but the biggest problem I see is that Minnesota is the better team. They have more talent, and more time in the same system.
Coaches can only do so much, especially in their first year. After three years, it's a lot easier to say "OK, we're adjusting our basic pick-and-roll in these two subtle ways" and the players can do it. In the first year, often the players are still trying to really get settled in the basic motion. (Yes, these are professionals, but there's also no real training camp and not much practice time.)
And again, position by position, Minnesota is overall just better -- and usually the better team wins. |
This is the whole thing in a nutshell.
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myrtle
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| Posted: 10/06/12 7:55 pm ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
Well, again, I hear you on Nneka. That's a player I'd want out there 40 minutes unless I was up by double digits. I do think the coach is more protective of Nneka as a rookie than she is doubting her or punishing her for mistakes or lack of effort or anything like that. I think she wants to yank Nneka before Nneka can get into the mindset that she's having a bad game.
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I don't think Nneka had any illusion about whether or not she had a bad game. They, as a team, need to figure out how to avoid a repeat. And they need her on the floor. But Anosike may have earned first off the post bench from her performance. She gave quite a gutsy performance.
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jammerbirdi
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| Posted: 10/06/12 8:06 pm ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
Well, again, I hear you on Nneka. That's a player I'd want out there 40 minutes unless I was up by double digits. I do think the coach is more protective of Nneka as a rookie than she is doubting her or punishing her for mistakes or lack of effort or anything like that. I think she wants to yank Nneka before Nneka can get into the mindset that she's having a bad game.
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I don't think Nneka had any illusion about whether or not she had a bad game. They, as a team, need to figure out how to avoid a repeat. And they need her on the floor. But Anosike may have earned first off the post bench from her performance. She gave quite a gutsy performance. |
Honestly, I think it's too deep in the playoffs to expect that you can drop Anosike into the game for extended minutes and it result in a win on that night. Lavender has been the first post off the bench almost all season and she's their best hope for a non-starting post contributing double figures scoring or anything like what is needed to actually pull off a win against a tremendous WNBA champion like the Lynx. The Sparks will need all these pieces firing on all cylinders in order to even be in the game in the fourth quarter.
Nneka's a rookie. This coach is going to look at her as a rookie no matter that she was the first round pic or the ROY. If she's having a bad game, she's likely to get her out of there and hope Nneka can figure it out so she's available at crunch time. As opposed to letting her get frustrated out on the floor, and let's just say the Lynx could frustrate a cement wall, and get herself into foul trouble etc., which could severely impact her availability or effectiveness late in the game.
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ClayK
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| Posted: 10/06/12 8:51 pm ::: |
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I wouldn't change the rotation at this point, either. It's like Anosike had her good game, and that's fine, but there was a reason she played behind Davenport.
And there's also the comfort issue: The team is much more used to Davenport, what she does, where she wants the ball, etc., than it is to Anosike.
Then again, look at Erlana Larkins.
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Shades
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| Posted: 10/06/12 8:58 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
I wouldn't change the rotation at this point, either. It's like Anosike had her good game, and that's fine, but there was a reason she played behind Davenport.
And there's also the comfort issue: The team is much more used to Davenport, what she does, where she wants the ball, etc., than it is to Anosike.
Then again, look at Erlana Larkins. |
You must be looking at Larkins and thinking about her, cuz Davenport plays for the Fever.
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ChicagoAnnie
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| Posted: 10/06/12 9:05 pm ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
Well, again, I hear you on Nneka. That's a player I'd want out there 40 minutes unless I was up by double digits. I do think the coach is more protective of Nneka as a rookie than she is doubting her or punishing her for mistakes or lack of effort or anything like that. I think she wants to yank Nneka before Nneka can get into the mindset that she's having a bad game.
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I don't think Nneka had any illusion about whether or not she had a bad game. They, as a team, need to figure out how to avoid a repeat. And they need her on the floor. But Anosike may have earned first off the post bench from her performance. She gave quite a gutsy performance. |
anosike's offense is terrible, but i agree, she was gritty on the boards, and getting after loose balls. i'd put her in before Lavender at this point, whom I'm really down on. She's not aggressive AT ALL, and her hands are buttery.
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ChicagoAnnie
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PUmatty
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ClayK
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| Posted: 10/06/12 10:37 pm ::: |
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| ChicagoAnnie wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
I wouldn't change the rotation at this point, either. It's like Anosike had her good game, and that's fine, but there was a reason she played behind Davenport.
And there's also the comfort issue: The team is much more used to Davenport, what she does, where she wants the ball, etc., than it is to Anosike.
Then again, look at Erlana Larkins. |
LA and Indiana pull off a trade Friday night?
(just teasing ya  ) |
No worries ... I didn't make myself very clear, but the point I was aiming at, however erratically, was that Indiana made the adjustment to Larkins very smoothly.
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LaLafan
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| Posted: 10/06/12 11:34 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
Good points about strategic adjustments on the pick-and-roll -- but the biggest problem I see is that Minnesota is the better team. They have more talent, and more time in the same system.
Coaches can only do so much, especially in their first year. After three years, it's a lot easier to say "OK, we're adjusting our basic pick-and-roll in these two subtle ways" and the players can do it. In the first year, often the players are still trying to really get settled in the basic motion. (Yes, these are professionals, but there's also no real training camp and not much practice time.)
And again, position by position, Minnesota is overall just better -- and usually the better team wins. |
I hear you but these are professionals who have been running pick and rolls all their natural born basketball life. It was happening before the Olympic break (where Tolliver was getting the hard doubles), you mean in the months since then, they couldn't find one adjustment/counter-play in their playbook? These ladies faced plenty of teams throughout their career that hard doubled. For those who watched the NCAAs, I believe Ogwumike played one such team 6 months or so ago in South Carolina. Did Stanford run on-ball pick and rolls in that game with their freshman point guard? Maybe once for a quick pick, slip screen but they ran more hand-offs than anything. And they didn't need a full season to know that you can't run on-ball screens in a traditional way for teams that hard double on every pick and roll. Maybe while Ogwumike is collecting pine over on the bench, she can slip Coach Ross some plays.
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Tally24
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| Posted: 10/07/12 12:52 am ::: |
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| LaLafan wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
Good points about strategic adjustments on the pick-and-roll -- but the biggest problem I see is that Minnesota is the better team. They have more talent, and more time in the same system.
Coaches can only do so much, especially in their first year. After three years, it's a lot easier to say "OK, we're adjusting our basic pick-and-roll in these two subtle ways" and the players can do it. In the first year, often the players are still trying to really get settled in the basic motion. (Yes, these are professionals, but there's also no real training camp and not much practice time.)
And again, position by position, Minnesota is overall just better -- and usually the better team wins. |
I hear you but these are professionals who have been running pick and rolls all their natural born basketball life. It was happening before the Olympic break (where Tolliver was getting the hard doubles), you mean in the months since then, they couldn't find one adjustment/counter-play in their playbook? These ladies faced plenty of teams throughout their career that hard doubled. For those who watched the NCAAs, I believe Ogwumike played one such team 6 months or so ago in South Carolina. Did Stanford run on-ball pick and rolls in that game with their freshman point guard? Maybe once for a quick pick, slip screen but they ran more hand-offs than anything. And they didn't need a full season to know that you can't run on-ball screens in a traditional way for teams that hard double on every pick and roll. Maybe while Ogwumike is collecting pine over on the bench, she can slip Coach Ross some plays. |
If Jantel, when in, could hold onto a pass, it wouldn't be that effective |
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ClayK
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| Posted: 10/07/12 11:07 am ::: |
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| Quote: |
| I hear you but these are professionals who have been running pick and rolls all their natural born basketball life. It was happening before the Olympic break (where Tolliver was getting the hard doubles), you mean in the months since then, they couldn't find one adjustment/counter-play in their playbook? These ladies faced plenty of teams throughout their career that hard doubled. For those who watched the NCAAs, I believe Ogwumike played one such team 6 months or so ago in South Carolina. Did Stanford run on-ball pick and rolls in that game with their freshman point guard? Maybe once for a quick pick, slip screen but they ran more hand-offs than anything. And they didn't need a full season to know that you can't run on-ball screens in a traditional way for teams that hard double on every pick and roll. Maybe while Ogwumike is collecting pine over on the bench, she can slip Coach Ross some plays. |
One would think women have run the pick-and-roll all their life, but ...
I coach in high school and early on I noticed that very few teams run much pick-and-roll, and since it's such a staple of the game, I decided to start using it.
The first thing I realized was that the lack of pickup basketball makes a huge difference in teaching the pick-and-roll. Guys play pickup all the time, from two-on-two to five-on-five, and they pick-and-roll constantly. If they don't learn how to run it or defend it, they lose, and they watch other guys play.
Girls never play pickup. They only practice and play in organized games and, as mentioned, few teams use the pick-and-roll much. One reason is that it's a lot harder to teach than you expect because girls are so unused to it.
So when you say Nneka saw the pick-and-roll against a college team, that well might be the only time (OK, one of the few times) she really had to deal with the pick-and-roll. She didn't use it at Stanford on offense (for reasons that escape me), as Tara and almost all college coaches prefer screens off the ball and Tara especially loves the high-low (for good reason, given her talent.)
All of this is a long way of saying that the pick-and-roll is not something girls learn, or have played all their lives. In fact, it's so foreign to them at the high school level that it's pretty much all my high school teams do, and
teams really struggle to defend it.
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LaLafan
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| Posted: 10/09/12 12:12 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I hear you but these are professionals who have been running pick and rolls all their natural born basketball life. It was happening before the Olympic break (where Tolliver was getting the hard doubles), you mean in the months since then, they couldn't find one adjustment/counter-play in their playbook? These ladies faced plenty of teams throughout their career that hard doubled. For those who watched the NCAAs, I believe Ogwumike played one such team 6 months or so ago in South Carolina. Did Stanford run on-ball pick and rolls in that game with their freshman point guard? Maybe once for a quick pick, slip screen but they ran more hand-offs than anything. And they didn't need a full season to know that you can't run on-ball screens in a traditional way for teams that hard double on every pick and roll. Maybe while Ogwumike is collecting pine over on the bench, she can slip Coach Ross some plays. |
One would think women have run the pick-and-roll all their life, but ...
I coach in high school and early on I noticed that very few teams run much pick-and-roll, and since it's such a staple of the game, I decided to start using it.
The first thing I realized was that the lack of pickup basketball makes a huge difference in teaching the pick-and-roll. Guys play pickup all the time, from two-on-two to five-on-five, and they pick-and-roll constantly. If they don't learn how to run it or defend it, they lose, and they watch other guys play.
Girls never play pickup. They only practice and play in organized games and, as mentioned, few teams use the pick-and-roll much. One reason is that it's a lot harder to teach than you expect because girls are so unused to it.
So when you say Nneka saw the pick-and-roll against a college team, that well might be the only time (OK, one of the few times) she really had to deal with the pick-and-roll. She didn't use it at Stanford on offense (for reasons that escape me), as Tara and almost all college coaches prefer screens off the ball and Tara especially loves the high-low (for good reason, given her talent.)
All of this is a long way of saying that the pick-and-roll is not something girls learn, or have played all their lives. In fact, it's so foreign to them at the high school level that it's pretty much all my high school teams do, and
teams really struggle to defend it. |
It's true Tara hasn't traditionally run pick and roll but she had no choice this year with her freshman point guard. She changed the offense up significantly to take advantage of the guard's strength in penetrating to the basket. So yes, Stanford played alot more pick and roll this year than they had in probably the previous ten years combined. And when they encountered a team that defended the PnR with hard doubles, they knew there were other options (even an inexperienced PnR team)
It would be appropriate that LA's last play was an on-ball pick and roll into a hard double (with the wrong player at that).  Why not go directly to the basket and draw a foul? Shouldn't everything be going to the rim with that amount of time on the clock? Why not get the ball in your best player's hand? Why not post Parker up again and again against Brunson until Brunson got that fifth foul (starting with the end of the 3rd quarter)? Why was Parker on the perimeter so much (I know, she did that all year and you can hardly fault her in this game as she showed up big time). Basketball is most beautiful when teams/players understand its simplicity
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