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Carol Anne
Joined: 09 Apr 2005
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 Posted: 08/04/12 7:22 am ::: |
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Celine Dumerc deserves attention, especially after yesterday's game.
LONDON (Reuters) - France's Celine Dumerc broke British hearts on Friday with a three-pointer to force overtime and another with under a second remaining for an 80-77 win that deprived the hosts a maiden Olympic women's basketball victory.
The French captain's two miracle threes kept France unbeaten atop Group B at 4-0 and Britain winless after wrenching losses to Australia, Canada and Russia that had the Olympic Basketball Arena fans roaring but deflated in the end. ...
http://ca.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idCABRE87218Z20120803
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ClayK
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| Posted: 08/04/12 12:01 pm ::: |
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| Dumerc made some big plays, no question, but I don't know how good a defender she is ... and I also wonder what would happen if a quicker player forced her to use her right hand. The British just let her dribble left twice, and it beat them. I wonder if Dumerc would be able to do that against Lindsay Harding, say, or even Shannon Bobbitt.
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Michelle89
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| Posted: 08/04/12 2:51 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| Dumerc made some big plays, no question, but I don't know how good a defender she is ... and I also wonder what would happen if a quicker player forced her to use her right hand. The British just let her dribble left twice, and it beat them. I wonder if Dumerc would be able to do that against Lindsay Harding, say, or even Shannon Bobbitt. |
She has played against good guards in the Euroleague
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vanyogan
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| Posted: 08/04/12 2:51 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| Dumerc made some big plays, no question, but I don't know how good a defender she is ... and I also wonder what would happen if a quicker player forced her to use her right hand. The British just let her dribble left twice, and it beat them. I wonder if Dumerc would be able to do that against Lindsay Harding, say, or even Shannon Bobbitt. |
I also wonder if she could take the punishment. WNBA teams love to beat on smallish size guards, Sammi can take it, can Dumerc? |
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Michelle89
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Richyyy
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| Posted: 08/04/12 7:47 pm ::: |
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| Also, given the number of point guards in the WNBA who are rubbish defensively, I find it hard to make defense a big issue with PGs. Seems like most points in the WNBA are considered bad defensively - she'd just join the group. |
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Shades
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Carol Anne
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Chilly1948
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
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| Posted: 08/05/12 1:15 pm ::: |
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| JohnyK wrote: |
| Cute thread, but, honestly, most of the top international (talking mainly about Europeans) players don't give a fuck about WNBA, they'd rather play for their NT and rest for a month or two or take the summer off altogether. |
That only makes sense (to a star athlete), if you already believe you can't compete in the WNBA. Athletes that believe they are the best, want to compete against the best. That's part of what makes them stars.
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bballfan2005
Joined: 22 Aug 2005
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| Posted: 08/05/12 1:30 pm ::: |
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| Chilly1948 wrote: |
| JohnyK wrote: |
| Cute thread, but, honestly, most of the top international (talking mainly about Europeans) players don't give a fuck about WNBA, they'd rather play for their NT and rest for a month or two or take the summer off altogether. |
That only makes sense (to a star athlete), if you already believe you can't compete in the WNBA. Athletes that believe they are the best, want to compete against the best. That's part of what makes them stars. |
A good European PG will face the likes of Sue Bird, Lindsay Whalen, and Becky Hammon (at least one of the three) in Euroleague play or Russian League play annually and get paid more than $36,500 to do so. I don't think they're missing much by not having to face the likes of Renee Montgomery, Courtney Vandersloot, Temeka Johnson, or Kristi Toliver on a nightly basis. This isn't like the NBA/Euroleague men, where a guy like Pablo Prigioini wouldn't have faced Chris Paul, Rajon Rondo, or Deron Williams in Euroleague play but will in the NBA.
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Chilly1948
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| Posted: 08/06/12 3:04 pm ::: |
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| bballfan2005 wrote: |
| Chilly1948 wrote: |
| JohnyK wrote: |
| Cute thread, but, honestly, most of the top international (talking mainly about Europeans) players don't give a fuck about WNBA, they'd rather play for their NT and rest for a month or two or take the summer off altogether. |
That only makes sense (to a star athlete), if you already believe you can't compete in the WNBA. Athletes that believe they are the best, want to compete against the best. That's part of what makes them stars. |
A good European PG will face the likes of Sue Bird, Lindsay Whalen, and Becky Hammon (at least one of the three) in Euroleague play or Russian League play annually and get paid more than $36,500 to do so. I don't think they're missing much by not having to face the likes of Renee Montgomery, Courtney Vandersloot, Temeka Johnson, or Kristi Toliver on a nightly basis. This isn't like the NBA/Euroleague men, where a guy like Pablo Prigioini wouldn't have faced Chris Paul, Rajon Rondo, or Deron Williams in Euroleague play but will in the NBA. |
Two things: first, playing a WNBA-caliber superstar once or twice per season is not comparable to facing one or more in virtually every game; second, it's not just the caliber of the superstars, but the superior talent throughout the lineup which differentiates the WNBA from the foreign leagues. I would match Courtney Vandersloot, Temeka Johnson, Kristi Toliver, plus a dozen more, against your European stars. I say again; if you think you're the best, or want to become the best, you want to play the best, regardless of pay disparity.
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Shades
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| Posted: 08/06/12 4:12 pm ::: |
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| Chilly1948 wrote: |
| I say again; if you think you're the best, or want to become the best, you want to play the best, regardless of pay disparity. |
That appears to be what Cambage is doing
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JACKOWACKO
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| Posted: 08/06/12 4:41 pm ::: |
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And it seems alot of teams don't have guards who can break the USA's full-court press effectively enough. Too many turnovers.
The full court press by USA almost seems unfair. Geno is absolutely killing it with his pressure. The other countries are pretty much begging for mercy after the constant stream of fresh legs that come in and out.
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bballfan2005
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| Posted: 08/06/12 4:50 pm ::: |
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| Chilly1948 wrote: |
| Two things: first, playing a WNBA-caliber superstar once or twice per season is not comparable to facing one or more in virtually every game; |
As far as PGs go, Bird and Whalen are considered the best. If you play for an Eastern Conference team, you're facing them a combined four times a season. If your team plays in the same group as them in Euroleague and happens to draw them in the knockout round, you could face one of them at least four times. Tell me what I'm missing. Who are these other superstar WNBA PGs that are absent from the equation?
Every position in this league isn't deep. The center position in this league is trash, which is why you see some PFs manning the paint. PG depth is horrible because there are so many PGs who cannot defend the position nor can they run teams (which is why you see SGs shifting over to man the position--even after they've been out of competitive basketball for two years). Team USA has all the quality non-injured SFs in this league (Catchings, McCoughtry, Moore, and Cash). PF is probably the deepest position in the league at the moment. Even Washington has a quality player at that spot.
| Quote: |
| second, it's not just the caliber of the superstars, but the superior talent throughout the lineup which differentiates the WNBA from the foreign leagues. |
While that is true (the WNBA offers better talent), there is at least one Euroleague team that would easily defeat Tulsa, Washington, and perhaps a few other WNBA teams.
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| I would match Courtney Vandersloot, Temeka Johnson, Kristi Toliver, plus a dozen more, against your European stars. |
Good for you, then. I would say that playing against those flawed players would not have an appreciable impact on my game if I'm already an international star. Not sure how playing against a bunch of turnover-prone guards will help in terms of career development, but to each his own.
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| I say again; if you think you're the best, or want to become the best, you want to play the best, regardless of pay disparity. |
You're repeating the same thing over and over again. You think the talent in this league is superior to that faced by Europeans. Okay. Why would that in and of itself be enough to draw a star from her Euroleague team to the WNBA if she's going to (1) make far less money than she's making in Europe, (2) have to contend with the cultural difference between her European country and the US (and skip her NT commitments), and (3) compete for an award that hasn't stopped teams in the league's past from folding? Where is the real incentive in playing in this league? For personal pride? To prove that they can "do it"? So what? This isn't the NBA. The prestige isn't there. Sorry, but it's not. For a European star, playing in this league would not be a practical decision. It's not a matter of not being competitive enough--it's a matter of not wanting to do something that makes no sense to them whatsoever.
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bballfan2005
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| Posted: 08/06/12 4:51 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
| Chilly1948 wrote: |
| I say again; if you think you're the best, or want to become the best, you want to play the best, regardless of pay disparity. |
That appears to be what Cambage is doing |
Cambage is 21 (young), a natural English speaker, and is 6-8 and mobile. Tell me how many Europeans can lay claim to that set of characteristics.
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ClayK
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| Posted: 08/06/12 5:19 pm ::: |
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Again, just to make it clear: Dumerc could definitely play in the WNBA and would start for several teams.
But I still don't know how she would do defensively -- would she be in the top half or the bottom half? -- and I wonder if she would consistently be able to go left against quicker defenders.
Not a knock on Dumerc, just questions that the Olympics haven't really answered, and probably won't.
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bballfan2005
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| Posted: 08/06/12 5:24 pm ::: |
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I'm not a Dumerc fan to say the least (she has no right hand and can't defend her own shadow), but she could play in this league. I don't think she's a starter, but she's at least a quality back-up on a good team and perhaps a starter on a bad team. I mean, could she be any worse than what Washington has now?
That said, why would she come over? What's the incentive? To say she did? If she's not going to make a huge difference, what's the use in bringing her over? You're certainly not going to build around her, so what's the point in having her adjust to a role she's not accustomed to playing?
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Shades
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| Posted: 08/06/12 5:44 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
Again, just to make it clear: Dumerc could definitely play in the WNBA and would start for several teams.
But I still don't know how she would do defensively -- would she be in the top half or the bottom half? -- and I wonder if she would consistently be able to go left against quicker defenders.
Not a knock on Dumerc, just questions that the Olympics haven't really answered, and probably won't. |
Can you answer this? What would the russian national team be like without Becky Hammon?
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Chilly1948
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| Posted: 08/07/12 3:04 pm ::: |
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| bballfan2005 wrote: |
As far as PGs go, Bird and Whalen are considered the best. If you play for an Eastern Conference team, you're facing them a combined four times a season. If your team plays in the same group as them in Euroleague and happens to draw them in the knockout round, you could face one of them at least four times. Tell me what I'm missing. Who are these other superstar WNBA PGs that are absent from the equation?
Every position in this league isn't deep. The center position in this league is trash, which is why you see some PFs manning the paint. PG depth is horrible because there are so many PGs who cannot defend the position nor can they run teams (which is why you see SGs shifting over to man the position--even after they've been out of competitive basketball for two years). Team USA has all the quality non-injured SFs in this league (Catchings, McCoughtry, Moore, and Cash). PF is probably the deepest position in the league at the moment. Even Washington has a quality player at that spot. |
It seems to me the error you are making is evaluating the challenge foreign players will face in the WNBA based on the challenge the best WNBA players face. The point guards you feel cannot defend their positions would find it relatively easy to defend these foreign players; put another way, the foreign players would find it much more challenging playing even mediocre WNBA players than the players they face day to day in foreign leagues. That is true for every position, though foreign posts would tend to pose their own challenges for WNBA players.
| bballfan2005 wrote: |
| While that is true (the WNBA offers better talent), there is at least one Euroleague team that would easily defeat Tulsa, Washington, and perhaps a few other WNBA teams. |
What team would that be, excluding their WNBA imports? I sincerely doubt it.
| bballfan2005 wrote: |
I would say that playing against those flawed players would not have an appreciable impact on my game if I'm already an international star. Not sure how playing against a bunch of turnover-prone guards will help in terms of career development, but to each his own...
You think the talent in this league is superior to that faced by Europeans. Okay. Why would that in and of itself be enough to draw a star from her Euroleague team to the WNBA if she's going to (1) make far less money than she's making in Europe, (2) have to contend with the cultural difference between her European country and the US (and skip her NT commitments), and (3) compete for an award that hasn't stopped teams in the league's past from folding? Where is the real incentive in playing in this league? For personal pride? To prove that they can "do it"? So what? This isn't the NBA. The prestige isn't there. Sorry, but it's not. For a European star, playing in this league would not be a practical decision. It's not a matter of not being competitive enough--it's a matter of not wanting to do something that makes no sense to them whatsoever. |
Why try to make a WNBA team? To get better; to be able to command more money in the Euroleague, or anywhere else; to help bring the skill level of your national team to the level of being able to compete with the US national team, without importing American players. These were the reasons, I believe, that Loren Jackson chose, in 2008, to continue to play in the WNBA rather than join her national team to prepare for the Olympics that year. It seems obvious to me, but apparently it isn't.
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bballfan2005
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| Posted: 08/07/12 3:37 pm ::: |
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| Chilly1948 wrote: |
| It seems to me the error you are making is evaluating the challenge foreign players will face in the WNBA based on the challenge the best WNBA players face. |
How am I making an error? Because I don't agree with you? Cute.
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| The point guards you feel cannot defend their positions would find it relatively easy to defend these foreign players; |
You don't know this for certain; this is your opinion (that is not based on anything substantial). Let me ask you this--have you ever even seen some of these players play in Europe? I've seen Toliver, Montgomery, Vandersloot, etc. play overseas. They are just as bad defensively as they are in this league--and they're not always facing Bird/Whalen types, either.
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| put another way, the foreign players would find it much more challenging playing even mediocre WNBA players than the players they face day to day in foreign leagues. |
Again, that is not the case if you actually watch both Euroleague games and WNBA games. The mediocre players you reference aren't exactly big-time stars in the better leagues. Mediocre or worse players dominate in leagues like Israel, but Israel is not a top European league.
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| That is true for every position, though foreign posts would tend to pose their own challenges for WNBA players. |
No, it really isn't. If you're a top European PF, you will have a chance to face top American PFs multiple times in Euroleague play and, depending on which league you play in, domestic league play (e.g. Turkey or Russia).
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| bballfan2005 wrote: |
| While that is true (the WNBA offers better talent), there is at least one Euroleague team that would easily defeat Tulsa, Washington, and perhaps a few other WNBA teams. |
What team would that be, excluding their WNBA imports? I sincerely doubt it. |
You're missing the point. I said that it wouldn't be beneficial for a player in her 30s to play in the WNBA because she's facing good enough competition in her own country and is making a hell of a lot more than she'd make as a "rookie" in the WNBA. That competition includes WNBA players. Euroleague men want to play in the NBA because they want to face the top-end NBA talent like LeBron or Chris Paul, and those players do not play in Euroleague. If you're a talented Russian woman playing in Russia and you want to face Taurasi, you will have multiple opportunities to do so without having to leave national borders.
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| Why try to make a WNBA team? To get better; |
How much better can an established player get? A player typically peaks around 27/28, so playing in the WNBA isn't going to help them much if they're already in their 30s.
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| to be able to command more money in the Euroleague, or anywhere else; |
They already make enough money in Euroleague or anywhere else BECAUSE THEY ARE ALREADY ESTABLISHED PLAYERS.
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| to help bring the skill level of your national team to the level of being able to compete with the US national team, without importing American players. |
Again, they have the opportunity to face these players and play on the same team with some of these American players on their home continent--without having to adjust to huge differences in culture. They face WNBA talent where they are.
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| These were the reasons, I believe, that Loren Jackson chose, in 2008, to continue to play in the WNBA rather than join her national team to prepare for the Olympics that year. |
And Lauren Jackson has won how many Olympic gold medals in her career?
I guess it didn't work, did it?
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| It seems obvious to me, but apparently it isn't. |
It seems to me that you don't know what you're trying to argue anymore. You began by challenging their "star" status, saying that the best want to compete against the best. But, as I pointed out, they're already facing the best at their respective positions in their own competitions, so why is it that they have to face our mediocre American talent? You suggested, "To get better." They're already STARS! So what is it that you're trying to argue? That the WNBA is a better league overall? Of course it is. What I'm telling you is that it doesn't matter to these players because they're already established, are already getting paid well, and are already facing good talent in their Euroleague competition. They're comfortable. They don't need the WNBA to get where they need to go because they're already there.
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GEF34
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| Posted: 08/07/12 3:44 pm ::: |
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| Chilly1948 wrote: |
Why try to make a WNBA team? To get better; to be able to command more money in the Euroleague, or anywhere else; to help bring the skill level of your national team to the level of being able to compete with the US national team, without importing American players. These were the reasons, I believe, that Loren Jackson chose, in 2008, to continue to play in the WNBA rather than join her national team to prepare for the Olympics that year. It seems obvious to me, but apparently it isn't. |
I have a serious question, you say they should play in the WNBA so they can make their national team better, but how could they help their national team if they aren't playing on it because they are playing in the WNBA. If most of the times they play with their national teams is during the WNBA season wouldn't it defeat the purpose of playing in the WNBA to improve their national teams. Or do you think just playing in the WNBA for one year will do it? And as seen with Spain there isn't a guarantee a team will get to the World Championships or Olympics, will these players risk skipping those tournaments to get experience playing against the WNBA players to prepare for the Olympics.
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Chilly1948
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| Posted: 08/07/12 4:12 pm ::: |
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No, I don't think you made an error because you disagree with me. I think the error in your argument is logical, as I infer your argument from your examples, and I stated what I understood the flaw in your argument to be. If I have misunderstood your argument, please forgive me.
Your point about the performance of WNBA players in foreign leagues is interesting. My random review of the performance of WNBA players in foreign leagues suggests that they usually perform better 'over there'.
I haven't forgotten the point I was trying to make, but if you have, let me restate it: The WNBA provides, from top to bottom, a higher level of competition than the various foreign leagues, and a player, from any country, who wants, for whatever reason, to play against the best competition will try to play in the WNBA. Your 'established foreign stars' may not care to do that: they have a comfortable life, and are adored by their local fans. The fact that they and their fellow national stars get humiliated by the US every two years is of little import to them - but they are not the athletes I'm talking about.
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bballfan2005
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| Posted: 08/07/12 5:25 pm ::: |
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| Chilly1948 wrote: |
| No, I don't think you made an error because you disagree with me. I think the error in your argument is logical, as I infer your argument from your examples, and I stated what I understood the flaw in your argument to be. If I have misunderstood your argument, please forgive me. |
I think your problem is that you're assuming that I'm saying something that I haven't said and would not say. I don't think the talent in Europe is on par with that of the WNBA top to bottom. What I'm saying is that some players in Europe are at a point in their careers where they're already able to face the best of the best at their positions at home and don't need to make the trek to America every summer to face the best of the best AND the rest. Celine Dumerc isn't going to improve her game by facing the likes of Kristi Toliver, Courtney Vandersloot, Renee Montgomery, or Temeka Johnson on a nightly basis--not when she's faced Sue Bird and Lindsay Whalen MULTIPLE times already. Playing in the WNBA wouldn't drastically improve a player like her. She is what she is--and the same can be said for an overwhelming majority of the current European stars. They are finished products.
Women's basketball is unique in that it affords players an opportunity to play year-round. So the best of the best go overseas and play in those competitions. All athletes want to face the best. What I'm trying to figure out is why you feel that an established player stands to gain something substantial from facing mid-level talent. The WNBA only has that to offer ahead of European leagues--talent concentration. You may play on TV a handful of times out of four months. So why would an established Euro want to play in this league and why would it make sense? For Americans, it is worth the risk because it's their home league. Do you think players like Parker and Taurasi would bend over backwards to play in the WNBA if they were European (and had the same talent they currently have) rather than American? With what they make overseas, I highly doubt it.
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| Your point about the performance of WNBA players in foreign leagues is interesting. My random review of the performance of WNBA players in foreign leagues suggests that they usually perform better 'over there'. |
Once again I ask you--how many of these games are you watching? Because I have no clue how you'd come to that conclusion unless you're just eyeing the box scores.
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| I haven't forgotten the point I was trying to make, but if you have, let me restate it: The WNBA provides, from top to bottom, a higher level of competition than the various foreign leagues, and a player, from any country, who wants, for whatever reason, to play against the best competition will try to play in the WNBA. |
I know what your point is. I'm saying to you that it doesn't matter to these players, for very simple and obvious reasons. I've said this multiple times now. They have the money and the recognition. They also have the opportunity to face top-end American talent annually. Just because they don't jump at the opportunity to face the likes of Shannon Bobbitt one night and Briann January the next doesn't mean that they aren't stars nor does it mean that they aren't competitive. It means they don't see a need to spend four months in a foreign land on a team they know nothing about for a mere fraction of what they earn at home.
The WNBA has the advantage in talent. What it doesn't have is the lofty reputation that the NBA enjoys. You won't get rich playing in the WNBA. You'll barely be seen or recognized except by die-hard fans. Also, the WNBA isn't the only place where you'd face top-flight talent at your position. Yes, your affiliation with the league can help you gain a few $$. But if you're a European who's already making good money over there, you don't need the league to help you earn more. Your play with those Euroleague teams will help you with that.
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| Your 'established foreign stars' may not care to do that: they have a comfortable life, and are adored by their local fans. |
And what's wrong with that?
Also, why do you refer to them as "your established foreign stars"? Just because I can see things from their POV and you obviously can't?
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| The fact that they and their fellow national stars get humiliated by the US every two years is of little import to them - but they are not the athletes I'm talking about. |
Okay, fine. NOW you want to talk about the younger players from these countries. How do you go about getting them to come over? Surely they'd want to represent their respective national teams, which is achieved by summer appearances in NT activities. What league do you think plays in the summertime? The WNBA. How can a young, unestablished player choose between the two? If she isn't established in Europe but wants to play here, there is no guarantee that she'll make a roster (and in fact she probably won't). If she does make a team, there's no guarantee that she'll play. You don't get better by just sitting on a bench in a foreign land. You have to play. If she makes her country's senior NT and actually plays, then she'll have a chance to grow her game and her name.
I'm not even sure why you used Lauren Jackson as an example. First, Lauren is Australian, and Australia isn't a country that has had much difficulty qualifying for the Olympics. Thus, she can afford to play in the WNBA during the non-Olympic, non-WC years because her team will qualify without her. Second, Jackson came over here to play before the huge surge in interest in year-round play. She wasn't making the big European bucks right away. Finally, Lauren Jackson is a once-in-a-lifetime type talent. Has the WNBA helped her in her development? Sure. But there's a chance that she was always going to be a top-flight talent.
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ClayK
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| Posted: 08/08/12 10:21 am ::: |
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There are many ways to be the best, and for some athletes, resting for a couple months a year puts them on that path. Not only does it allow them to physically build strength and recover, it also allows them to mentally recharge their batteries.
And let's not forget how much of a grind the WNBA is. The schedule is much more demanding than in Europe, with much more travel, and coaches demand a lot more effort, especially on defense. At some level, your job is supposed to be enjoyable, and if the WNBA is a whole lot of work for a decent amount of money -- but in a foreign country where you don't understand the language and never feel at home -- I can see why you wouldn't want to do it.
America isn't necessarily the promised land, and some people just aren't that interested in spending time here. Some people are, and that's great, but I don't see any huge benefit for established European players to come over. I also am not convinced it makes sense for a young player to annoy her national federation by skipping national team commitments to come either (do you think Erin Phillips would have liked to play in the Olympics?), though she could leverage her European income with a couple strong WNBA seasons.
Finally, to return to an earlier point, it's a lot easier to play in the WNBA if you speak English because life in America is going to be much smoother, and that's why I think we see more Australians than Europeans.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 63759
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| Posted: 08/08/12 10:51 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
There are many ways to be the best, and for some athletes, resting for a couple months a year puts them on that path. Not only does it allow them to physically build strength and recover, it also allows them to mentally recharge their batteries.
And let's not forget how much of a grind the WNBA is. The schedule is much more demanding than in Europe, with much more travel, and coaches demand a lot more effort, especially on defense. At some level, your job is supposed to be enjoyable, and if the WNBA is a whole lot of work for a decent amount of money -- but in a foreign country where you don't understand the language and never feel at home -- I can see why you wouldn't want to do it.
America isn't necessarily the promised land, and some people just aren't that interested in spending time here. Some people are, and that's great, but I don't see any huge benefit for established European players to come over. I also am not convinced it makes sense for a young player to annoy her national federation by skipping national team commitments to come either (do you think Erin Phillips would have liked to play in the Olympics?), though she could leverage her European income with a couple strong WNBA seasons.
Finally, to return to an earlier point, it's a lot easier to play in the WNBA if you speak English because life in America is going to be much smoother, and that's why I think we see more Australians than Europeans. |
From what I have experienced, it seems like most europeans learn english as a second language early on. I'm not sure what's happening that some don't, like that Spanish player the Lynx had in training camp this year.
As far as players making more money in europe (or china), nobody's ever really explained why that is or why it is guaranteed to stay that way. It seems like they have a less sustainable business model than the wnba. Whatever happened to the the club maya was just on? Seems like it just disappeared without much thought of the implications or whether it will be a future trend. Is it just a bunch of glen taylors over in europe owning teams just for an expensive hobby?
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Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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