| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
mavcarter
#NATC
Joined: 02 Sep 2010
Posts: 5935
Location: Chicago
Back to top |
|
jlight
Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 2516
Location: minny
Back to top |
|
mavcarter
#NATC
Joined: 02 Sep 2010
Posts: 5935
Location: Chicago
Back to top |
|
NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 14097
Back to top |
|
jap
Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 7924
Back to top |
|
jlight
Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 2516
Location: minny
Back to top |
 Posted: 08/11/15 10:01 am ::: |
Reply  |
|
| damn ya'll trashed maya.. where was shades?
_________________
#DosLynx
#mayaclinic
"It's not necessarily about out-working the person across from me. It's out-working that voice inside me that says, "I'm too tired. I don't feel like doing it. I can settle." - Maya Moore.
|
|
jlight
Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 2516
Location: minny
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/11/15 10:03 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| whitedudeluvswnba wrote: |
Even while both were at Uconn, I always thought Tina was the better player. The Huskies won 2 national championships because of Tina Charles, not because of Moore. Moore just helped them to win, but Tina was the main factor. When Uconn lost Tina to graduation, Uconn lost the national championship.
And yes Geno was harder on Tina, but that is because Tina went to Uconn and told him right from the start that she wanted to become the best center in the country and told Geno to help her become that. Which he did, and which she did. Geno was hard on her at times, but Tina wanted that, to push her to her extremes because she wanted to be the best.
If Tina went to another college, I highly doubt she'd be the dominate player she is today. Geno did the same thing to Charde, because he believed she could be a superstar. Charde just didn't respond to it, and that is why she's playing off Minnesota's bench, getting barely any playing time, and doing pretty much nothing with the time she gets.
Geno was hard on Maya a lot of times too. Just not as much, because he didn't have to be. The one thing he was on her about all the time was that she never drives to the basket enough. He stated that when she drives to the basket, no one in the country can stop her, except to foul her, which get's the other teams best player into foul trouble. Maya never listened because she hates contact.
And now in the WNBA, she's still not driving to the basket. If Maya want's to be a true WNBA superstar, she needs to start doing what Geno always wanted her to do.
Tina listened to Geno, and that is one of the reason's she's the player she is today.
I was a lot happier to get Tina Charles on my Sun team than if they would have gotten Maya Moore. Maya's a good WNBA player, but Tina's a great WNBA player. There's a big difference. I don't think Maya will ever be a real superstar until she stops relying on far out jump shots. Just like Lindsay Whalen drives to the rim, Maya needs to do the same because like Whalen, no one would be able to stop Maya from scoring layups. |
bhahahahahhaha
_________________
#DosLynx
#mayaclinic
"It's not necessarily about out-working the person across from me. It's out-working that voice inside me that says, "I'm too tired. I don't feel like doing it. I can settle." - Maya Moore.
|
|
jlight
Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 2516
Location: minny
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/11/15 10:07 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| Diana3Taurasi wrote: |
| bballfan2005 wrote: |
| jap wrote: |
| As much as I like Maya, she cannot handle the rock like even CP3, much less your typical guard. Despite her athletics, that lack places limitations on her ability to take players off the dribble or create her own shot. |
Back in March, it was psheehy who said that Candace Parker was better than Maya Moore (comparing their senior years in college based on his metrics--which I can't explain). Needless to say, that didn't settle well with the pro-UConn types on here. Now, I really don't think it's up for debate anymore.
So wherever you are, Patrick (hope you're okay), I'd like to give you your props on that call. |
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that Candace's game translates to the pros much better than Maya's game does. My bro was a big Maya fan in college and he always said that she's going to end up being the best player to ever play. I've only watched a handful of UCONN games, but I immediately knew that Tina was going to be a better player than Maya and that UCONN wasn't going to win a championship being led by Maya. I was also surprised by Diana saying that Maya will go down as the GOAT by the time she retires. I do think Maya has superstar potential, but I definitely don't think she has GOAT potential. |
DT knows
_________________
#DosLynx
#mayaclinic
"It's not necessarily about out-working the person across from me. It's out-working that voice inside me that says, "I'm too tired. I don't feel like doing it. I can settle." - Maya Moore.
|
|
root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 7365
Location: Underground
Back to top |
|
justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
Back to top |
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66909
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/11/15 11:26 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| I stand by everything I said in this thread.
_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
|
|
NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 14097
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/11/15 12:13 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| pilight wrote: |
| I stand by everything I said in this thread. |
Which is fair. You talked about what you thought of each player in college mainly.
In terms of looking at pro performance, it's amazing what a few years can do for a player.
Though I will say, seeing Tina every game now, she deserves a lot of credit for being able to really carry the scoring load on a team that only has one other double-digit scorer. She did similarly with the Sun in 2012 when they won 25 games while giving significant minutes to Greene and Griffin.
_________________
The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
|
|
Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010
Posts: 16464
Location: Holland
Back to top |
|
NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 14097
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/11/15 12:59 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Michelle89 wrote: |
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| I stand by everything I said in this thread. |
Which is fair. You talked about what you thought of each player in college mainly.
In terms of looking at pro performance, it's amazing what a few years can do for a player.
Though I will say, seeing Tina every game now, she deserves a lot of credit for being able to really carry the scoring load on a team that only has one other double-digit scorer. She did similarly with the Sun in 2012 when they won 25 games while giving significant minutes to Greene and Griffin. |
In 2012 she shot 50% from the field. This year she is shooting a pretty ugly 43% from the field for a post wich is the 2nd lowest of her career.
Im i really the only one that isnt this impressed with Tina Charles   |
You're way too hung up on her FG %. She has received double and triple-teams almost every time she touches the ball (especially when Prince was out, a little less so now) because teams will gladly attempt to see other players shoot. What other player in the league draws this much defensive attention? The answer is none. She's playing excellent defense this year and the team as a whole is 14-6. As great as their defense is, she's far and away the primary reason they are a winning team, and it's largely because of her that other players on the team get open shots. And since Prince returned, she's shooting 50% from the field anyway. Not to mention she is one of the better passing posts in the league. And she is at a career high of 4.9 FTA per game. Even if her FG % isn't as high as we would like, she is also finding other ways to get scoring opportunities.
If they were just a mediocre team I could more understand your reasoning. But she's the reason they're not. That says something. I've always been big on stats, but I have also been bigger on a player's influence to a team's ability to win. How they fit in offensively and defensively, how they execute their role, how their presence affects the way other players on the team are defended. It's pretty unquestionable that her influence on the team's ability to win is huge.
_________________
The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
Last edited by NYL_WNBA_FAN on 08/11/15 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
sigur3
Joined: 18 Jun 2013
Posts: 6191
Location: Chicago-ish
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/11/15 1:22 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| jlight wrote: |
| damn ya'll trashed maya.. where was shades? |
Probably banned for trolling.
|
|
kojthiabkuv
Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1860
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/11/15 2:41 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| MAYA #FTW
|
|
Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010
Posts: 16464
Location: Holland
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/11/15 4:44 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| Michelle89 wrote: |
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| I stand by everything I said in this thread. |
Which is fair. You talked about what you thought of each player in college mainly.
In terms of looking at pro performance, it's amazing what a few years can do for a player.
Though I will say, seeing Tina every game now, she deserves a lot of credit for being able to really carry the scoring load on a team that only has one other double-digit scorer. She did similarly with the Sun in 2012 when they won 25 games while giving significant minutes to Greene and Griffin. |
In 2012 she shot 50% from the field. This year she is shooting a pretty ugly 43% from the field for a post wich is the 2nd lowest of her career.
Im i really the only one that isnt this impressed with Tina Charles |
You're way too hung up on her FG %. She has received double and triple-teams almost every time she touches the ball (especially when Prince was out, a little less so now) because teams will gladly attempt to see other players shoot. What other player in the league draws this much defensive attention? The answer is none. She's playing excellent defense this year and the team as a whole is 14-6. As great as their defense is, she's far and away the primary reason they are a winning team, and it's largely because of her that other players on the team get open shots. And since Prince returned, she's shooting 50% from the field anyway. Not to mention she is one of the better passing posts in the league. And she is at a career high of 4.9 FTA per game. Even if her FG % isn't as high as we would like, she is also finding other ways to get scoring opportunities.
If they were just a mediocre team I could more understand your reasoning. But she's the reason they're not. That says something. I've always been big on stats, but I have also been bigger on a player's influence to a team's ability to win. How they fit in offensively and defensively, how they execute their role, how their presence affects the way other players on the team are defended. It's pretty unquestionable that her influence on the team's ability to win is huge. |
Ive got a simple answer for you. Elena Delle Donne. Her fieldgoal percentage is 48% and she is a shooter. Let that sink in for a while. I wouldnt be suprised if 75% of her shots are from outside. No other good postplayer is averaging such a bad fieldgoalpercentage. Out of the 29 listed centers, her FG% is 23rd. Yes Charles gets a lot of attention but that doesnt mean that she gets a free pass to keep shooting bricks from the outside.
You can say what you want but fieldgoalpercentage is one of the most important stats in basketball. In the WNBA you can win a Player Of the Week award with a bad fieldgoalpercentage but you are certainly not going to win an MVP award with it..
_________________
"Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
|
|
NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 14097
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/11/15 4:52 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I have two answers for you.
LJ's career FG % was .460. Playing the same position Charles does now. Volume scorers sometimes have lower percentages. Langhorne's FG % is 55% or so. Does that make her a better player than Charles? If not then I'm not understanding your argument.
Charles is the best player on a team with a .700 winning percentage. It's not an accident.
As for the EDD comparison, she's playing with a much better offensive team. There's more weapons to work with.
_________________
The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
|
|
Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010
Posts: 16464
Location: Holland
Back to top |
|
NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 14097
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/11/15 5:21 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I never said she was having an MVP season so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Charles' FG % is up from 37 to 43 in a matter of weeks. Let's see where she's at when the season ends.
I'm not saying she's more valuable than MM or EDD, but if you're not impressed with one player singlehandedly carrying a team on offense when they're 14-6, that's on you.
In the MVP race, Charles is at best a distant third or fourth depending on where Griner is viewed. I personally don't care. Her value to this team in winning is extremely high. That's all that I care about.
_________________
The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
|
|
Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010
Posts: 16464
Location: Holland
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/11/15 5:36 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
I never said she was having an MVP season so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Charles' FG % is up from 37 to 43 in a matter of weeks. Let's see where she's at when the season ends.
I'm not saying she's more valuable than MM or EDD, but if you're not impressed with one player singlehandedly carrying a team on offense when they're 14-6, that's on you.
In the MVP race, Charles is at best a distant third or fourth depending on where Griner is viewed. I personally don't care. Her value to this team in winning is extremely high. That's all that I care about. |
| Quote: |
| She did similarly with the Sun in 2012 when they won 25 games while giving significant minutes to Greene and Griffin. |
You are saying that her MVP season that she had in 2012 is similar to what she is doing now. So kind of implying that she is having a MVP season or maybe that's me reading it wrong.
_________________
"Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
|
|
myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 32335
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/11/15 5:54 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Bottom line IMO: Tina is a very good player who could be even better if she A) didn't think of herself as a good outside shooter and therefore spent more time in the paint; or B) got a shooting coach to work with her and spent a lot of time becoming a better outside shooter. It's like she hits just enough of them to make her think it's ok.
She is not the only post player with this illness (see Sancho Lyttle for another prime exhibit). I'm not sure if it's an ego thing or what. Do their coaches encourage this stupid behavior or do they do it in spite of what the coaches tell them. As an aside, personally I found all the post players heaving up threes at the all star game ridiculous. Do it on the playground if you must do it, but not in public. It just helps the perception that girls can't shoot.
_________________
For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
|
|
NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 14097
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/11/15 8:23 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Michelle89 wrote: |
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
I never said she was having an MVP season so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Charles' FG % is up from 37 to 43 in a matter of weeks. Let's see where she's at when the season ends.
I'm not saying she's more valuable than MM or EDD, but if you're not impressed with one player singlehandedly carrying a team on offense when they're 14-6, that's on you.
In the MVP race, Charles is at best a distant third or fourth depending on where Griner is viewed. I personally don't care. Her value to this team in winning is extremely high. That's all that I care about. |
| Quote: |
| She did similarly with the Sun in 2012 when they won 25 games while giving significant minutes to Greene and Griffin. |
You are saying that her MVP season that she had in 2012 is similar to what she is doing now. So kind of implying that she is having a MVP season or maybe that's me reading it wrong. |
It's you reading it wrong. I'm not saying her stats are similar. I'm saying her effect on the team is.
_________________
The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
|
|
NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 14097
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/11/15 8:28 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| myrtle wrote: |
Bottom line IMO: Tina is a very good player who could be even better if she A) didn't think of herself as a good outside shooter and therefore spent more time in the paint; or B) got a shooting coach to work with her and spent a lot of time becoming a better outside shooter. It's like she hits just enough of them to make her think it's ok.
She is not the only post player with this illness (see Sancho Lyttle for another prime exhibit). I'm not sure if it's an ego thing or what. Do their coaches encourage this stupid behavior or do they do it in spite of what the coaches tell them. As an aside, personally I found all the post players heaving up threes at the all star game ridiculous. Do it on the playground if you must do it, but not in public. It just helps the perception that girls can't shoot. |
Laimbeer freely admits they are encouraging her to shoot more. She's been a better outside shooter in past years as per PD's stats. But having her outside means more screen and roll with Piph, who's a very effective pick and roll player. It also means better spacing for others to penetrate. If she shot bricks from outside every year I would follow this line of thinking. But this is an unusually down year for her shooting from outside. Also you can't post a big up on every play. They'd wear down. And above all else they're winning using this approach. As long as that happens it works for me.
Even when they post her she winds up in that short corner a lot. Which from my understanding of triangle/low post offense is exactly where you want a post to be in order to be a passing threat vs a double team. Hence her career high assists average at this time. But I find passing to be a very under appreciated trait in general.
_________________
The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
|
|
RP
Joined: 17 Jul 2010
Posts: 1299
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/11/15 8:51 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Her career TS% is below the league average over the same period, and it's not an insignificant difference.
The only other star that is remotely applicable to is McCoughtry, and Atlanta has consistently had issues building a championship-level offense around her.
Yes, you may be able to go 15-6 on the strength of your defense, opponents missing stars, and no games against the league's best team, but it's impossible to win a championship with a first option who shoots that poorly.
|
|
|
|
You can better compare LJ to EDD because both take more outside shots(including 3pointers) then postups and they both have a good outside shot which Charles just doesnt have. And they still have a better FG% then Charles and are also volume scorers. So that argument doesnt really count.