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vanyogan



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PostPosted: 04/20/10 5:38 pm    ::: MP3s Why Don't We Talk About Illegal Downloads Anymore? Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
We're no longer dealing with broke kids who buy records, and download what they can't afford. We're talking about hordes of illegal consumers--a Jupiter Research study found that most illegal file sharers do not buy music--who think nothing of downloading all their music for free. And a cultural environment that's less hostile to them than label bosses. Why aren't the people turning out at Record Store Day more upset about this? Why isn't the conversation less about the missteps of major labels, and more about what can be done to curb illegal downloading?

http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/reverb/2010/04/why_dont_we_talk_about_illegal.php


Something for nothing is a false idea. Music is already suffering IMO.



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myt



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PostPosted: 04/20/10 8:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This whole issue could of/should of been handled better by the music industry. Instead of suing customers and fighting the new method of distribution media, they should have embraced it.

With video streaming it will be interesting to see how the movie industry handles it Confused



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pilight



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PostPosted: 04/20/10 8:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The music industry went overboard, suing for millions against teenagers whose crimes were akin to shoplifting, and it backfired into a PR nightmare from which they still haven't recovered.



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PostPosted: 04/20/10 8:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
The music industry went overboard, suing for millions against teenagers whose crimes were akin to shoplifting, and it backfired into a PR nightmare from which they still haven't recovered.


So, if the penalty for shoplifting is too high, then it is OK then, just steal peoples hard earned work?



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pilight



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PostPosted: 04/20/10 8:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

vanyogan wrote:
pilight wrote:
The music industry went overboard, suing for millions against teenagers whose crimes were akin to shoplifting, and it backfired into a PR nightmare from which they still haven't recovered.


So, if the penalty for shoplifting is too high, then it is OK then, just steal peoples hard earned work?


The penalty for shoplifting isn't and shouldn't be millions of dollars in restitution.

It's always been legal to copy records and give them away, which is essentially what's happening. Anybody who's made a tape for someone has done it. How that translates into the new media is anyone's guess. Copyright law is going to have to undergo a complete overhaul.

I'd guess, however, that the labels are overstating the problem. Note that the author uses US figures for album sales but international figures for illegal downloads. Also...

Quote:
We're no longer dealing with broke kids who buy records, and download what they can't afford. We're talking about hordes of illegal consumers--a Jupiter Research study found that most illegal file sharers do not buy music--who think nothing of downloading all their music for free.


...is no change at all. People who downloaded new music illegally have always been unwilling to pay. The only difference is that there are a few more these days.

Back in the Napster days, many people used it to find scarce and out-of-print stuff that wasn't available anywhere else. My dad used it to find a ton of old Perry Como songs that weren't available commercially.



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vanyogan



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PostPosted: 04/20/10 8:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
vanyogan wrote:
pilight wrote:
The music industry went overboard, suing for millions against teenagers whose crimes were akin to shoplifting, and it backfired into a PR nightmare from which they still haven't recovered.


So, if the penalty for shoplifting is too high, then it is OK then, just steal peoples hard earned work?


The penalty for shoplifting isn't and shouldn't be millions of dollars in restitution.

It's always been legal to copy records and give them away, which is essentially what's happening. Anybody who's made a tape for someone has done it. How that translates into the new media is anyone's guess. Copyright law is going to have to undergo a complete overhaul.

I'd guess, however, that the labels are overstating the problem. Note that the author uses US figures for album sales but international figures for illegal downloads. Also...

Quote:
We're no longer dealing with broke kids who buy records, and download what they can't afford. We're talking about hordes of illegal consumers--a Jupiter Research study found that most illegal file sharers do not buy music--who think nothing of downloading all their music for free.


...is no change at all. People who downloaded new music illegally have always been unwilling to pay. The only difference is that there are a few more these days.

Back in the Napster days, many people used it to find scarce and out-of-print stuff that wasn't available anywhere else. My dad used it to find a ton of old Perry Como songs that weren't available commercially.


That's BS and you know it Pilight. File copying, copy a cassette. Big difference between copying 1 to 1, and copying 1 to 50,000, File sharing.

Whatever. Folks who don't get this one, well they just won't get it...



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pilight



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PostPosted: 04/20/10 9:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

vanyogan wrote:
pilight wrote:
vanyogan wrote:
pilight wrote:
The music industry went overboard, suing for millions against teenagers whose crimes were akin to shoplifting, and it backfired into a PR nightmare from which they still haven't recovered.


So, if the penalty for shoplifting is too high, then it is OK then, just steal peoples hard earned work?


The penalty for shoplifting isn't and shouldn't be millions of dollars in restitution.

It's always been legal to copy records and give them away, which is essentially what's happening. Anybody who's made a tape for someone has done it. How that translates into the new media is anyone's guess. Copyright law is going to have to undergo a complete overhaul.

I'd guess, however, that the labels are overstating the problem. Note that the author uses US figures for album sales but international figures for illegal downloads. Also...

Quote:
We're no longer dealing with broke kids who buy records, and download what they can't afford. We're talking about hordes of illegal consumers--a Jupiter Research study found that most illegal file sharers do not buy music--who think nothing of downloading all their music for free.


...is no change at all. People who downloaded new music illegally have always been unwilling to pay. The only difference is that there are a few more these days.

Back in the Napster days, many people used it to find scarce and out-of-print stuff that wasn't available anywhere else. My dad used it to find a ton of old Perry Como songs that weren't available commercially.


That's BS and you know it Pilight. File copying, copy a cassette. Big difference between copying 1 to 1, and copying 1 to 50,000, File sharing.

Whatever. Folks who don't get this one, well they just won't get it...


I agree that it's a problem, but I don't think the answer is as cut and dried as you make it out to be.



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vanyogan



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PostPosted: 04/20/10 10:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
vanyogan wrote:
pilight wrote:
vanyogan wrote:
pilight wrote:
The music industry went overboard, suing for millions against teenagers whose crimes were akin to shoplifting, and it backfired into a PR nightmare from which they still haven't recovered.


So, if the penalty for shoplifting is too high, then it is OK then, just steal peoples hard earned work?


The penalty for shoplifting isn't and shouldn't be millions of dollars in restitution.

It's always been legal to copy records and give them away, which is essentially what's happening. Anybody who's made a tape for someone has done it. How that translates into the new media is anyone's guess. Copyright law is going to have to undergo a complete overhaul.

I'd guess, however, that the labels are overstating the problem. Note that the author uses US figures for album sales but international figures for illegal downloads. Also...

Quote:
We're no longer dealing with broke kids who buy records, and download what they can't afford. We're talking about hordes of illegal consumers--a Jupiter Research study found that most illegal file sharers do not buy music--who think nothing of downloading all their music for free.


...is no change at all. People who downloaded new music illegally have always been unwilling to pay. The only difference is that there are a few more these days.

Back in the Napster days, many people used it to find scarce and out-of-print stuff that wasn't available anywhere else. My dad used it to find a ton of old Perry Como songs that weren't available commercially.


That's BS and you know it Pilight. File copying, copy a cassette. Big difference between copying 1 to 1, and copying 1 to 50,000, File sharing.

Whatever. Folks who don't get this one, well they just won't get it...


I agree that it's a problem, but I don't think the answer is as cut and dried as you make it out to be.


You can buy about any major song you want for a dollar a song download. You used to have to buy an album to get one song you like. That's the point, there are no excuses for stealing music anymore. A dollar a song is fair.



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Ottie



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PostPosted: 04/20/10 10:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

vanyogan wrote:


You can buy about any major song you want for a dollar a song download. You used to have to buy an album to get one song you like. That's the point, there are no excuses for stealing music anymore. A dollar a song is fair.


I agree, and hence, I can't remember the last time I got a free song. I'm happy to pay the price to download songs now. Hey, even cds at the shops aren't as bad as they used to be. Prices used to be a complete rort. But I think things have evened out as a result. But the meme of big music corporations that we shouldn't give a crap about stealing from them is still out there, and the music industry did nothing to quell that though based on their previous price rorting and their reaction to illegal downloads.


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PostPosted: 04/20/10 10:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

When I was a child, I used to set with my radio and record all of my favorite songs with a cassette. Now I record from youtube..

You can't blame someone for going and getting things for free, particularly college kids who owe more money then they can even comprehend.

I know it probably hurts the industry, but morally it doesn't bother me.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 04/20/10 10:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

vanyogan wrote:
You can buy about any major song you want for a dollar a song download. You used to have to buy an album to get one song you like. That's the point, there are no excuses for stealing music anymore. A dollar a song is fair.


Sure, but that's not stopping people from downloading for free. I don't know how that's going to be solved.



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PostPosted: 04/21/10 2:19 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I admit that at one time I downloaded a lot of songs. However, I did download songs from many cd's and cassettes that I had bought and had lost or given away in all my moves. Also, many of the songs were on 45's 78's and albums that my older brothers or Mom had bought. I do admit that I downloaded more than I or my family had bought. I think I thought everyone was doing it. I wish I had not done it. Now, I buy my songs from itunes just because I am set-up to buy there. At Amazon.com, someone tried to use my account so they closed it and I did not try to reopen.

Anyway, itunes is going up. Some songs are $l.29. If anyone considers someplace really good for music downloading, please let me know, even if they are $1.29. I would just like another site.

There is that thing about being able to find old songs. I wanted Green Door which was popular in the 50's and my oldest brother had. I am not sure I would have found that anywhere but on a file-sharing site.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 04/21/10 3:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Think about this folks. This is a plea for people to concern themselves with the plight of one half of the most despicably evil businesses the world has ever known: The Hollywood Entertainment Empire. The whiner asks WHY... why doesn't anyone talk about infringement issues any more. lol!

"This demonization of major labels has had an adverse effect on the entire industry and is, according to Barsuk Record co-founder Josh Rosenfeld, "driving people to feel like it's an ethically pure act to take the music without paying for it."

They are fucking demons. And as a whole, in effect, if not in the eyes of the law, they constitute a monopoly.

What's sad is how, once again, people FAR removed from the battle get sidetracked into this riding haughtily on an argument about the ethics of downloading music on the internet.



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bridgehere



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PostPosted: 04/21/10 5:33 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Think about this folks. This is a plea for people to concern themselves with the plight of one half of the most despicably evil businesses the world has ever known: The Hollywood Entertainment Empire. The whiner asks WHY... why doesn't anyone talk about infringement issues any more. lol!

"This demonization of major labels has had an adverse effect on the entire industry and is, according to Barsuk Record co-founder Josh Rosenfeld, "driving people to feel like it's an ethically pure act to take the music without paying for it."

They are fucking demons. And as a whole, in effect, if not in the eyes of the law, they constitute a monopoly.

What's sad is how, once again, people FAR removed from the battle get sidetracked into this riding haughtily on an argument about the ethics of downloading music on the internet.


Stealing is stealing it doesn't matter whom you steal from, plus this affects artists and writers, often people who are not making boatloads of money.


Luuuc
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PostPosted: 04/21/10 6:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'll admit it: I steal music regularly.
Do I feel bad about it? No, not even slightly.
Thanks to file sharing I get to listen to a way larger variety of music than I otherwise could. As a direct result, these days I spend more on legally purchased than I ever have.

Am I happier as a result of this arrangement? Hell yes. I'm happy to spend more on music if I can find enough of it that I think justifies a purchase.

Is the music industry better off as a result of this arrangement? Absolutely. They get more of my money now as a direct result.

It's win-win as far as I'm concerned.



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PostPosted: 04/21/10 8:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I took all my cd's and ripped them to my mp3.

If I really like an album, I don't pay for the download but do buy the cd off ebay for a lot less and then rip it. Not sure where all that falls into this conversation.

The fines are outrageous, yet I understand the music industry or anyone else on the internet when things are just taken.

I've had it happen numerous times with my History of Women's Basketball. I've seen people take my entire sites and publish iit under theirs. It is a compliment in one way, but irks me in another.

So I actually talked to a copyright lawyer about getting some language to put on my sites. Not that anyone is making money off my stuff. I have seen a great increase in people asking if they can use it for projects, etc, which is great.

Yet on things that could make money someday, I go a step further. Like my videos on a the All American Red Heads. not only do I watermark them, I also imbed a ghost in every single one as well as pictures. I would be very pissed if someone took my Red Heads photos reprinted and sold them (I've had that happen) so I recanned everything at low resolution and watermarked.

The internet provides great services but also challenges.

The music industry went way overboard with fines. Yet trying to protect what is intellectually there's is within reason.



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caune



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PostPosted: 04/21/10 8:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
vanyogan wrote:
You can buy about any major song you want for a dollar a song download. You used to have to buy an album to get one song you like. That's the point, there are no excuses for stealing music anymore. A dollar a song is fair.


Sure, but that's not stopping people from downloading for free. I don't know how that's going to be solved.


Geesh Pilight, where did you get that pic of Cappie? That is one f'd up dress she is wearing Laughing



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PostPosted: 04/21/10 9:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

caune wrote:
pilight wrote:
vanyogan wrote:
You can buy about any major song you want for a dollar a song download. You used to have to buy an album to get one song you like. That's the point, there are no excuses for stealing music anymore. A dollar a song is fair.


Sure, but that's not stopping people from downloading for free. I don't know how that's going to be solved.


Geesh Pilight, where did you get that pic of Cappie? That is one f'd up dress she is wearing Laughing


Yeah, it isn't very flattering to her ... uhh ... anything



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PostPosted: 04/21/10 9:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bridgehere wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Think about this folks. This is a plea for people to concern themselves with the plight of one half of the most despicably evil businesses the world has ever known: The Hollywood Entertainment Empire. The whiner asks WHY... why doesn't anyone talk about infringement issues any more. lol!

"This demonization of major labels has had an adverse effect on the entire industry and is, according to Barsuk Record co-founder Josh Rosenfeld, "driving people to feel like it's an ethically pure act to take the music without paying for it."

They are fucking demons. And as a whole, in effect, if not in the eyes of the law, they constitute a monopoly.

What's sad is how, once again, people FAR removed from the battle get sidetracked into this riding haughtily on an argument about the ethics of downloading music on the internet.


Stealing is stealing it doesn't matter whom you steal from, plus this affects artists and writers, often people who are not making boatloads of money.


this is, sadly, the perspective from which good people enter this discussion. stealing is stealing, there's no arguing with that, I'm gonna park my butt comfortably down on this simple fact and ignore this entire world and and the infinitely complex realities and history and ramifications for society of this incredibly exploitive and destructive force that is the Hollywood music industry. what's to talk about here? stealing is stealing, there it is. end of story. thank you very much. easiest debate you've ever won on Rebkells. congratulations.



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bridgehere



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PostPosted: 04/21/10 10:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
bridgehere wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Think about this folks. This is a plea for people to concern themselves with the plight of one half of the most despicably evil businesses the world has ever known: The Hollywood Entertainment Empire. The whiner asks WHY... why doesn't anyone talk about infringement issues any more. lol!

"This demonization of major labels has had an adverse effect on the entire industry and is, according to Barsuk Record co-founder Josh Rosenfeld, "driving people to feel like it's an ethically pure act to take the music without paying for it."

They are fucking demons. And as a whole, in effect, if not in the eyes of the law, they constitute a monopoly.

What's sad is how, once again, people FAR removed from the battle get sidetracked into this riding haughtily on an argument about the ethics of downloading music on the internet.


Stealing is stealing it doesn't matter whom you steal from, plus this affects artists and writers, often people who are not making boatloads of money.


this is, sadly, the perspective from which good people enter this discussion. stealing is stealing, there's no arguing with that, I'm gonna park my butt comfortably down on this simple fact and ignore this entire world and and the infinitely complex realities and history and ramifications for society of this incredibly exploitive and destructive force that is the Hollywood music industry. what's to talk about here? stealing is stealing, there it is. end of story. thank you very much. easiest debate you've ever won on Rebkells. congratulations.


Nah, I have won easier ones. You also ignored the fact that I said it affects writers and artists, people who are often not making boatloads of money.


vanyogan



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PostPosted: 04/21/10 11:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
bridgehere wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Think about this folks. This is a plea for people to concern themselves with the plight of one half of the most despicably evil businesses the world has ever known: The Hollywood Entertainment Empire. The whiner asks WHY... why doesn't anyone talk about infringement issues any more. lol!

"This demonization of major labels has had an adverse effect on the entire industry and is, according to Barsuk Record co-founder Josh Rosenfeld, "driving people to feel like it's an ethically pure act to take the music without paying for it."

They are fucking demons. And as a whole, in effect, if not in the eyes of the law, they constitute a monopoly.

What's sad is how, once again, people FAR removed from the battle get sidetracked into this riding haughtily on an argument about the ethics of downloading music on the internet.


Stealing is stealing it doesn't matter whom you steal from, plus this affects artists and writers, often people who are not making boatloads of money.


this is, sadly, the perspective from which good people enter this discussion. stealing is stealing, there's no arguing with that, I'm gonna park my butt comfortably down on this simple fact and ignore this entire world and and the infinitely complex realities and history and ramifications for society of this incredibly exploitive and destructive force that is the Hollywood music industry. what's to talk about here? stealing is stealing, there it is. end of story. thank you very much. easiest debate you've ever won on Rebkells. congratulations.


Hollywood music industry. Look at sales, do the math? Geez, get off your business is evil high horse and just do the frigg'n math. A platinum CD is how much revenue today? 10 - 20 million max, less all the middlemen, promotion, travel, and bling. Music companies have employees too.

That ain't a very big frigg'n pie jammer? I've been following this band Gloriana, they have toured w/Swift for a year now, they just now started traveling with a bass and drummer.

BTW, you want to hear a cool song? Gloriana time to let me go.

http://www.cmt.com/videos/studio-330-sessions/gloriana/458329/time-to-let-me-go.jhtml

The CD version is good, not over produced. It has a bit of jazz to it.



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Last edited by vanyogan on 04/21/10 11:21 am; edited 1 time in total
pilight



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PostPosted: 04/21/10 11:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

caune wrote:
pilight wrote:
vanyogan wrote:
You can buy about any major song you want for a dollar a song download. You used to have to buy an album to get one song you like. That's the point, there are no excuses for stealing music anymore. A dollar a song is fair.


Sure, but that's not stopping people from downloading for free. I don't know how that's going to be solved.


Geesh Pilight, where did you get that pic of Cappie? That is one f'd up dress she is wearing Laughing


It's from the Red Dress Show for the American Heart Association in October 2008.



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PostPosted: 04/21/10 11:33 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bridgehere wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
bridgehere wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Think about this folks. This is a plea for people to concern themselves with the plight of one half of the most despicably evil businesses the world has ever known: The Hollywood Entertainment Empire. The whiner asks WHY... why doesn't anyone talk about infringement issues any more. lol!

"This demonization of major labels has had an adverse effect on the entire industry and is, according to Barsuk Record co-founder Josh Rosenfeld, "driving people to feel like it's an ethically pure act to take the music without paying for it."

They are fucking demons. And as a whole, in effect, if not in the eyes of the law, they constitute a monopoly.

What's sad is how, once again, people FAR removed from the battle get sidetracked into this riding haughtily on an argument about the ethics of downloading music on the internet.


Stealing is stealing it doesn't matter whom you steal from, plus this affects artists and writers, often people who are not making boatloads of money.


this is, sadly, the perspective from which good people enter this discussion. stealing is stealing, there's no arguing with that, I'm gonna park my butt comfortably down on this simple fact and ignore this entire world and and the infinitely complex realities and history and ramifications for society of this incredibly exploitive and destructive force that is the Hollywood music industry. what's to talk about here? stealing is stealing, there it is. end of story. thank you very much. easiest debate you've ever won on Rebkells. congratulations.


Nah, I have won easier ones. You also ignored the fact that I said it affects writers and artists, people who are often not making boatloads of money.


I ignored it because it's a little naive. Sorry. That's the truth.

Believe it or not, this stuff can be very much tied into my rants the other day in the immigration threads. In terms of how we don't equip our young people to understand the world that they live in. We try to create Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz. It works sometimes, and those people are pretty much screwed unless they have some cynic next to them to keep them grounded in reality, or it fails miserably but confusedly and erratically most times, and often results in creating angry reactionaries.

The idea that downloading music is stealing and this is a valid example of the fact that "stealing is wrong" and that the ARTISTs and writers and musicians and singers are SCREWED when people download and that THIS somehow represents the business model that is the Hollywood music industry... where do I even start? I don't mean to go on the offense but my thoughts are... how old is this person? where do they hail from? what do they know?

Are you as old as me? (52 and a half) Do you live in Los Angeles? New York? (remember the days where the movies accurately portrayed the bright eyed and bushy haired innocents from the midwest arriving off the train in New York City and SHIT WOULD JUST START HAPPENING? lol!)

Do you know anything about how the music business or Hollywood operates? Don't take this the wrong way but I don't think you do.



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PostPosted: 04/21/10 8:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bridgehere wrote:
You also ignored the fact that I said it affects writers and artists, people who are often not making boatloads of money.


Well in the music industry most successful artists make a huge bulk of their money touring. Most don't own their masters and more often than not they don't make much money on the CD/download. If you really want to support an artist go see them on tour.

I can't feel sorry for the music industry when it milked profits by raising prices on CDs when the price for making the physical product was declining. Again, they shot themselves in the foot by making their customers enemies Confused

I would prefer the cost of downloads be based on the size of the file with lower quality versions being cheaper.



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PostPosted: 04/21/10 9:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I feel the same way! Then again, most of the shit I downloaded I already have, so I've already given the record companies my money! I have the stacks of CD's to prove it too! I feel not an ounce of shame for downloading my music!



Quote:
[quote="Luuuc"]I'll admit it: I steal music regularly.
Do I feel bad about it? No, not even slightly.
Thanks to file sharing I get to listen to a way larger variety of music than I otherwise could. As a direct result, these days I spend more on legally purchased than I ever have.



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Since this "FUCK this 'signature is too long' bullshit!!!" is no longer applicable, I'm gonna have to get creative - just not right now. Oh, GO LIBERTY!!!! Wink
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