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KeiraNY
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FudPucked
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KeiraNY
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VandyWhit
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 Posted: 07/29/05 10:03 am ::: |
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Not that I have a dog in the fight, but I'm just generally interested in why coaches do the things they do.
After listening to Coyle's postgame comments (thanks for the heads up on that, btw) on the msgnetwork.com and looking at the play-by-play for the game, here's my take on it.
At halftime, NY held a 10-point lead. When asked, what happened, Coyle's main point was the Connecticut zone. She said it took "us" a while to figure out what worked against it. She's obviously referring to the first part of the second half, when the Sun caught up. At 14:13 a basket by Douglas tied the game:
(14:13) [CON 39-39] Douglas Jump Shot: Made (11 PTS) Assist: Whalen (4 AST)
(13:40) [NYL] Team Turnover: 24 Second Violation ( TO)
(13:40) [NYL] Team Timeout: Regular
(13:40) [NYL] Johnson Substitution replaced by Thorn
(13:21) [CON 41-39] Jones Hook Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: McWilliams-Franklin (
(12:54) [NYL 42-41] Thorn Jump Shot: Made (7 PTS) Assist: Christon (6 AST)
Right afterwards, NY had a shot clock violation. Coyle called time out. During that timeout, Thorn went in for Johnson. Less than a minute later, she hit a 3-pointer on an assist from Christon to put NY back in the lead.
Altogether, I think that means that Coyle wasn't happy with how Johnson was playing against the zone (for whatever reason) and put Thorn in as a "zone buster." Since Thorn immediately responded with a 3, she stayed in. I thought the comment about "needing somebody different" in there referred specifically to this situation in the second half, where NYL had lost the lead and struggled against CT's zone, not a general comment about who would play in the next game.
As to whether it was the right decision, who knows. However, if you look at the facts . . . NY lost the lead spectacularly BEFORE Thorn went in, Thorn's basket stopped the bleeding and from there on the teams played toe-to-toe. "What ifs" can drive you crazy, but in terms of what actually happened, I think it's hard to put too much of the blame for the loss on Coyle's decision to put Thorn in the game.
If somebody really wanted to understand that decision and evaluate it, I think the two keys would be (1) breaking down the shot clock violation just before Coyle took VJ out, and (2) looking at the different defenses that CT used. From her comments, it sounded like CT hadn't been in the zone the whole game, but when they started the 2nd half with it, it threw NY off. I honestly don't remember whether that's what happened or not. Then the other question is how CT reacted defensively after Thorn went in.
Maybe after looking at it that way, the decision would still seem just as much a bonehead decision as some of you think it was, but if anybody wanted to make a fair and serious evaluation, I think it'd be worth looking at.
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VandyWhit
Joined: 27 May 2005
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| Posted: 07/29/05 10:04 am ::: |
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| Double post! Sorry!
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KeiraNY
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thesixthwoman
Joined: 25 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 07/29/05 11:47 am ::: |
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| VandyWhit wrote: |
Not that I have a dog in the fight, but I'm just generally interested in why coaches do the things they do.
After listening to Coyle's postgame comments (thanks for the heads up on that, btw) on the msgnetwork.com and looking at the play-by-play for the game, here's my take on it.
At halftime, NY held a 10-point lead. When asked, what happened, Coyle's main point was the Connecticut zone. She said it took "us" a while to figure out what worked against it. She's obviously referring to the first part of the second half, when the Sun caught up. At 14:13 a basket by Douglas tied the game:
(14:13) [CON 39-39] Douglas Jump Shot: Made (11 PTS) Assist: Whalen (4 AST)
(13:40) [NYL] Team Turnover: 24 Second Violation ( TO)
(13:40) [NYL] Team Timeout: Regular
(13:40) [NYL] Johnson Substitution replaced by Thorn
(13:21) [CON 41-39] Jones Hook Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: McWilliams-Franklin (
(12:54) [NYL 42-41] Thorn Jump Shot: Made (7 PTS) Assist: Christon (6 AST)
Right afterwards, NY had a shot clock violation. Coyle called time out. During that timeout, Thorn went in for Johnson. Less than a minute later, she hit a 3-pointer on an assist from Christon to put NY back in the lead.
Altogether, I think that means that Coyle wasn't happy with how Johnson was playing against the zone (for whatever reason) and put Thorn in as a "zone buster." Since Thorn immediately responded with a 3, she stayed in. I thought the comment about "needing somebody different" in there referred specifically to this situation in the second half, where NYL had lost the lead and struggled against CT's zone, not a general comment about who would play in the next game.
As to whether it was the right decision, who knows. However, if you look at the facts . . . NY lost the lead spectacularly BEFORE Thorn went in, Thorn's basket stopped the bleeding and from there on the teams played toe-to-toe. "What ifs" can drive you crazy, but in terms of what actually happened, I think it's hard to put too much of the blame for the loss on Coyle's decision to put Thorn in the game.
If somebody really wanted to understand that decision and evaluate it, I think the two keys would be (1) breaking down the shot clock violation just before Coyle took VJ out, and (2) looking at the different defenses that CT used. From her comments, it sounded like CT hadn't been in the zone the whole game, but when they started the 2nd half with it, it threw NY off. I honestly don't remember whether that's what happened or not. Then the other question is how CT reacted defensively after Thorn went in.
Maybe after looking at it that way, the decision would still seem just as much a bonehead decision as some of you think it was, but if anybody wanted to make a fair and serious evaluation, I think it'd be worth looking at. |
regarding Erin Thorn - when she missed those first 3 shots, i was thinking, 'crap, you're a shooter, if you can't land them, get the F out of the game.' but then she DID land them (what, 3 3-pointers?) and so my guess is it's that simple as to why she stayed in the game. she was producing in the way they expect her to. i seriously doubt patty expects thorn's defense to be as good as VJ's, unless she is smoking something, so i don't know if we should give her as much "analytical" credit as Vandy is (good post, Vandy!) to me, they put Erin in to hit some threes, and she hit some threes, so they kept her in.
CT is a stronger team than we are. Unfortunate, but true. Can we beat them? Sure. Obviously - - we have. But will we dominate the record against them this year? Doubtful, unless we're all playing our very best bball FOR 40 MINUTES, and that is hard for ANY team, and apparently, particularly hard for NY (what else is new?)
another thought - maybe VJ was tired? erin is about 10 years younger, i think, and VJ played a lot of minutes the night before, right?
i don't want to complain about ann wauters, because overall she's doing really, really well and i'm thrilled with her progress, but when the ball was stolen from her in the final minute of the game, she barely got up off the floor, and if you watch the tape, she had a chance to fight to get it back - it will still right near her on our side of the floor, not passed yet; she could have tried to tip it back out of CT's (ashja jones'?) hands...maybe fought for a jump ball, but she just laid there, defeated-like. where's the hunger? can you see swoopes -- or even becky -- doing that? she needs to work on that.
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thesixthwoman
Joined: 25 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 07/29/05 11:49 am ::: |
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| oops. double post.
Last edited by thesixthwoman on 07/29/05 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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sambista
Joined: 25 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 07/29/05 11:49 am ::: |
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| vandywhit, you offer a good scenario, but did vj not contribute to that 10-point lead? she had a 3pointer, a rebound, 2 assist, a steal . . . my first reaction to patty's comments was that something happened - maybe an attitude, ill-advised words - that prompted patty to bench vj, and patty just couldn't think fast enough or cleverly enough to come up with a cover story (or foolishly wasn't anticipating the question, or all of the above). i could be way off, but that was my reaction.
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herrade
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 07/29/05 12:53 pm ::: |
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| sebibb wrote: |
| my first reaction to patty's comments was that something happened - maybe an attitude, ill-advised words - that prompted patty to bench vj |
bibb, that was my feeling too. sitting there watching all this go down, my first thought was: crystal and vj mutinied, and patty is asserting her authority.
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dtsnms
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Admiral_Needa
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 07/29/05 1:03 pm ::: |
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| VandyWhit wrote: |
Not that I have a dog in the fight, but I'm just generally interested in why coaches do the things they do.
After listening to Coyle's postgame comments (thanks for the heads up on that, btw) on the msgnetwork.com and looking at the play-by-play for the game, here's my take on it.
At halftime, NY held a 10-point lead. When asked, what happened, Coyle's main point was the Connecticut zone. She said it took "us" a while to figure out what worked against it. She's obviously referring to the first part of the second half, when the Sun caught up. At 14:13 a basket by Douglas tied the game:
(14:13) [CON 39-39] Douglas Jump Shot: Made (11 PTS) Assist: Whalen (4 AST)
(13:40) [NYL] Team Turnover: 24 Second Violation ( TO)
(13:40) [NYL] Team Timeout: Regular
(13:40) [NYL] Johnson Substitution replaced by Thorn
(13:21) [CON 41-39] Jones Hook Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: McWilliams-Franklin (
(12:54) [NYL 42-41] Thorn Jump Shot: Made (7 PTS) Assist: Christon (6 AST)
Right afterwards, NY had a shot clock violation. Coyle called time out. During that timeout, Thorn went in for Johnson. Less than a minute later, she hit a 3-pointer on an assist from Christon to put NY back in the lead.
Altogether, I think that means that Coyle wasn't happy with how Johnson was playing against the zone (for whatever reason) and put Thorn in as a "zone buster." Since Thorn immediately responded with a 3, she stayed in. I thought the comment about "needing somebody different" in there referred specifically to this situation in the second half, where NYL had lost the lead and struggled against CT's zone, not a general comment about who would play in the next game.
As to whether it was the right decision, who knows. However, if you look at the facts . . . NY lost the lead spectacularly BEFORE Thorn went in, Thorn's basket stopped the bleeding and from there on the teams played toe-to-toe. "What ifs" can drive you crazy, but in terms of what actually happened, I think it's hard to put too much of the blame for the loss on Coyle's decision to put Thorn in the game.
If somebody really wanted to understand that decision and evaluate it, I think the two keys would be (1) breaking down the shot clock violation just before Coyle took VJ out, and (2) looking at the different defenses that CT used. From her comments, it sounded like CT hadn't been in the zone the whole game, but when they started the 2nd half with it, it threw NY off. I honestly don't remember whether that's what happened or not. Then the other question is how CT reacted defensively after Thorn went in.
Maybe after looking at it that way, the decision would still seem just as much a bonehead decision as some of you think it was, but if anybody wanted to make a fair and serious evaluation, I think it'd be worth looking at. |
That's what it looked like to me... that and they needed somebody to rest some starters.. but of course, hindsight is 20-20...
BTW, how was Faith & Family Night? 
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VandyWhit
Joined: 27 May 2005
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| Posted: 07/29/05 1:10 pm ::: |
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| Quote: |
| vandywhit, you offer a good scenario, but did vj not contribute to that 10-point lead? she had a 3pointer, a rebound, 2 assist, a steal . . . my first reaction to patty's comments was that something happened - maybe an attitude, ill-advised words - that prompted patty to bench vj, and patty just couldn't think fast enough or cleverly enough to come up with a cover story (or foolishly wasn't anticipating the question, or all of the above). i could be way off, but that was my reaction. |
Yeah, that definitely could have been part of it. It wouldn't have been the first tme something like that happened in that kind of a situation. Given the facts of the situation, it's possible that Coyle thought that VJ carried a big share of the responsibility for the shot clock violation and said something about it, VJ responded, and Coyle reacted. Just speculation, but it certainly seems plausible to me.
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bigsportzbabe
Joined: 21 Apr 2005
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| Posted: 07/29/05 1:10 pm ::: |
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| CT is a stronger team than we are. Unfortunate, but true. |
Tara, you of all people.....are you giving up on the Libs already...
CT has better coaching....but a stronger team....not yet
NY was on the road, on the back end of a backtoback, without their BEST DEFENSIVE starter and the SUN won by 3points
I congratulate the Sun and their fans on the victory, and the fact that their team hung in to bring it home
But at the same time, I should hope that the SUN have been put on notice that NY is not to be taken lightly, and might present the biggest obstacle to their making it to the finals this year.
Of course NY`s biggest obstacle is the asshole they have for a coach, and getting to the playoffs in spite of her.
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Senility Prayer: God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference. Amen.
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liveitup!
Joined: 25 Apr 2005
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| Posted: 07/29/05 1:45 pm ::: |
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| A few observations to add to this thread (fuel to the fire?).....for all those minutes that Crystal and VJ were sitting, they were together, as far down the bench from the coaches as possible, and din't look "tired" to me......as for Faith and Family Night it was (thankfully!) decidedly low-key....a video thing during a time-out with some Sun players talking about what their family means to them....Sweet Adelines group singing "One day you're gonna want me for your girl" at half-time.....
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KeiraNY
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