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Admiral_Needa
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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 Posted: 12/27/04 8:33 pm ::: Lindsay Whalen is Grounded & Calls Going to Conn a Bless |
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"Lindsay is such a grounded person," Gophers coach Pam Borton said.
Though she found it difficult to be so far from her family, Whalen got over her disappointment in a day and embraced the idea of playing in a state that adores its women's hoops. |
Interesting... 
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| "I had no intention of trading her," said Thibault, putting to rest the idea that the Sun would have considered any predraft deal with the Lynx. "Our coaching staff absolutely believes in her and wants to build the team around her. We're selling her as a winner, and people around here have adopted her big-time." |
As I originally thought... all that trade talk was just to see how far Minnesota would go. And that maybe they could have gotten something ridiculous for Lindsay, hence the Katie Smith talk 
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Hutchinson remains her refuge, said Whalen's mother, Kathy. And boyfriend Ben Greve, a senior on the Gophers golf team, is protective of Lindsay's privacy while understanding her role as a public icon.
Whalen's big indulgence was buying a video-game console.
http://www.startribune.com/stories/512/5154848.html |
I wonder if the protective Ben asked to put that little piece of info in the paper, lol...
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MNfan22
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 12/27/04 10:10 pm ::: Re: Lindsay Whalen is Grounded & Calls Going to Conn a B |
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As our dear admiral has played the old cut & paste gm, here is the link to the whole article to read for yourselves.
http://www.startribune.com/stories/512/5154848.html
Its an excellent read.
As was mentioned in another post somewhere Lindsay was named sportsperson of the year by both the Minneapolis Star Trib & St Paul Pioneer Press. Its the first time a female has had the honor for the Trib not sure about the Press. Listening to some of the columnist on radio the vote wasn't even close.
While I don't expect the rest of the country to really understand the depth of her place in Minnesota sports history, for women basketball & women's sports in general at this point in time, I must say there are no exaggerations when it comes to the impact of her 4yrs of basketball at the Univ of Minnesota. She's truly been something special.
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dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 12/28/04 9:51 am ::: |
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| Admiral, Mike T said from day one he was never trading her. It was the Minnesota and other press that reported the "hold up" attempts. Mike has been adamant that she would have been his choice at number two even.
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womens_hoops
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 12/28/04 11:24 am ::: |
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| dtsnms wrote: |
| Admiral, Mike T said from day one he was never trading her. It was the Minnesota and other press that reported the "hold up" attempts. Mike has been adamant that she would have been his choice at number two even. |
what are you talking about?
The Lynx and the Sun had trade discussions for the week leading up to the draft. A few days before, Thibault told the Courant that they were talking about trades, but that it would have to wait till draft day, because he wanted to see who was still available with Minnesota's 6 and 7 picks.
Then, they had more talks on draft day, the Lynx made an offer, but the Sun said they wouldn't do it unless they got four starters.
Thibault told Pam Schmid that he was open to a trade, but that it was the Lynx's fault no deal got done, because the Lynx hadn't made "anything that resembles a good trade offer."
He gave the same line to the Courant. According to Thibault, it was the Lynx who wouldn't "step up."
Those are both direct quotes straight from the horse's mouth. Go look them up, and read all of the articles between April 10 and 19th in the Star Trib, the Pioneer Press, and the Courant.
(Incidentally, Thibault also told the Courant prior to the draft that if Charlotte went with Hayden or Ohlde, he might take Powell over Whalen.)
Thibault only because "adamant" that Whalen was his #2 choice (behind Taurasi) and that he'd never trade her weeks and months later.
If he never considered trading her, why didn't he just say that at the time? Why tell the papers that it was Minnesota's fault for not getting a deal done?
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dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 12/28/04 11:26 am ::: |
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Considering he told me in N.O. he was taking Whalen, the rest was posturing. Think what you want.
Oh, and I think if they stepped up with Katie Smith, that's different. That's more likely what he meant. He was not going to trade that pick for another pick, period, unless it was Diana.
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womens_hoops
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 12/28/04 11:40 am ::: |
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| dtsnms wrote: |
Considering he told me in N.O. he was taking Whalen, the rest was posturing. Think what you want.
Oh, and I think if they stepped up with Katie Smith, that's different. That's more likely what he meant. He was not going to trade that pick for another pick, period, unless it was Diana. |
they never asked for Katie Smith. They asked for the two picks plus two other starters, which was too much, and the Lynx wouldn't do it.
Posturing?
How 'bout just being an asshole? He knew the situation in Minnesota. He knew how there were thousands of fans here who were clamoring for Whalen, flooding the Lynx front office with calls and letters.
The Lynx told the fans: listen, we want to get Whalen, but we can't give up the whole team to do it. We'll try our best, but if it doesn't work out, we hope you'll support us anyway.
Thibault tells the Minnesota fans: your team lied to you. They didn't even really try, they didn't step up, they didn't make a serious offer. (Which led to more than a few season ticket cancellations, tons more phone calls and letters, columns in the MN papers trashing the team, that stupid website calling for a boycott, etc.)
Who exactly was he "posturing" to by saying that? By that time, it was clear that no trade was going to happen. What did he or the Sun have to gain, especially if he never would have traded Lindsay anyway? Maybe he was just trying to sink another franchise, figuring there'd be a little less competition?
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dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 12/28/04 11:52 am ::: |
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Oh please...you've got your opinion set in stone. I'm not continuing this fight. This is ridiculous. You blame him for not giving Minnesota their true rightful rookie star. Instead you end up with two monster posts, and it's still not good enough to make you happy.
Hope you can somehow get Janel; I'd hate to see more crying. Happy new year.
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womens_hoops
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 12/28/04 12:13 pm ::: |
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| dtsnms wrote: |
Oh please...you've got your opinion set in stone. I'm not continuing this fight. This is ridiculous. You blame him for not giving Minnesota their true rightful rookie star. Instead you end up with two monster posts, and it's still not good enough to make you happy.
Hope you can somehow get Janel; I'd hate to see more crying. Happy new year. |
I don't blame him for not giving us Whalen. If he wanted to keep her, that's fine with me. We offered 6 and 7 plus either Darling or Williams. They wanted all four.
They didn't think 3 players was enough; we thought 4 players was too much. It's a reasonable disagreement. I don't blame him or Sienko for disagreeing with SMS about Whalen's value, and I don't blame SMS for sticking to her guns. Considering how well Ohlde did this year, it's arguable that even the 3 player deal would have been too much.
I only blame Thibault for one thing: gratuitously trashing the Lynx in the press after the trade fell through. Kicking a vulnerable franchise when it was down... for no good reason.
Compare what he did to what Sulka did. All along, he said: I'm sorry Connecticut (and fans), we're keeping Taurasi, it's not the Sun's fault, we're just not gonna do it.
If Thibault had said that and kept Whalen, I'd have no problem.
Compare what he did to what Lacey did. Charlotte was actually closer to accepting the 6-7-Darling deal, but in the final week, they decided they really wanted Powell (probably a mistake, in retrospect). When the press asked them about it, they simply said: we really wanted Powell, and we decided not to do a deal, and beyond that, we won't comment publicly about trade talks.
If Thibault had said that and kept Whalen, I'd have no problem.
All it takes is a little bit of class and a little bit of discretion. He showed neither at the time.
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dtsnms
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| Posted: 12/28/04 12:18 pm ::: |
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out of curiosity, how are you so sure about what Minnesota said vs. what CT said? I don't doubt either side, I'm just not sure who is telling the truth or if there was a general misunderstanding as to what was offered.
Not just you, but I've noticed over the last year that a lot of people have assumed that the offer of the four was the real offer. I've never understood why that was treated as ironclad. If it was not, then could you blame Mike for criticizing Minnesota after all they did was blast CT?
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4ever_bball_fan
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
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| Posted: 12/28/04 12:21 pm ::: |
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Here's a clue for women's basketball fans in Minnesota: if Katie Smith plays in last years playoffs, Seattle is done in the first round. Add to that the fact that Seattle's guards had to deal with Amber Jacobs instead of Kristi Harrower, and you see my point.
True, that is playing "what-if" poker and one can always win at that game, but I, for one, am looking forward to what Coach McConnell-Serio does with her Twin Towers in 2005. I don't think any team can defend against Ohlde and Hayden if they get their timing and knowledge of each other's games down. I frankly don't even see a need for McCarville in that line up. Are you going to get rid of Tamika Williams or Svet?
It is good for the league to have enough great talent to spread around. Lindsay is good for Minnesota...thanks for sharing her with the rest of us.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 12/28/04 12:29 pm ::: |
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| womens_hoops wrote: |
| He knew the situation in Minnesota. He knew how there were thousands of fans here who were clamoring for Whalen, flooding the Lynx front office with calls and letters. |
Are you sure? If you "don't expect the rest of the country to really understand the depth of her place in Minnesota sports history", why expect Thibault to understand it? Perhaps he thought it was more normal level of homerism.
As it turned out, not having Whalen didn't hurt the Lynx that much at the box office. Their attendance was up about 4%.
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Alepp03
Joined: 25 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 12/28/04 12:37 pm ::: |
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If I remember correctly, SMS wasn't exactly sold on Whalen. With lineups their team was likely to use, Katie Smith was the 2 guard, and SMS didn't see Whalen, a potential backup to T Edwards as worth the whole freaking front line of Tamika and the two rookies.
Thibault saw Whalen as the final piece to his puzzle. After trading Pee Wee, I seriously doubt he had any intention of picking Powell as his new PG. Thibault at the same time, wasn't dumb enough to not listen to trades, as receiving Darling, Tamika, Ohlde, and Hayden would have been monstrous, but without all four, he wasn't sold that it was for the good of his club.
REGARDLESS, it is all over with. Whalen, the Sun, and the Lynx all had great seasons and grew from the experience. Again, if the Lynx fans can't be happy with a team that busted their butts to make it to the playoffs minus their star, they have their own problems. To revisit the Whalen issue is just pointless. Good luck with McCarville, but she isn't what you need, just like Whalen wasn't what you needed.
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womens_hoops
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 12/28/04 12:40 pm ::: |
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| dtsnms wrote: |
out of curiosity, how are you so sure about what Minnesota said vs. what CT said? I don't doubt either side, I'm just not sure who is telling the truth or if there was a general misunderstanding as to what was offered.
Not just you, but I've noticed over the last year that a lot of people have assumed that the offer of the four was the real offer. I've never understood why that was treated as ironclad. If it was not, then could you blame Mike for criticizing Minnesota after all they did was blast CT? |
no, of course I'm not sure. There was definitely some misinformation around the deal. From everything I've heard about the Lynx (and Roger Griffith in particular), they have always been straight with the local reporters here, but of course it's possible that they weren't in this instance.
But even if the description true... even if the Lynx offered less, or the Sun were willing to take less... why trash the Lynx in the press afterward once the deal fell through?
You suggest that it might be retaliation because Minnesota "blasted" CT... again, what are you talking about?
At the beginning, the Lynx followed the usual decorum and wouldn't even identify what teams they were talking to, much less what deals were in the works.
Here is what Thibault in his interview with Pam Schmid on April 16: "So far they haven't made anything that resembles a good trade offer. . . For a team to say they've done everything they could do to try to land her would not be an accurate statement. You have to think about offering players of pretty good stature. That has not been done."
When Schmid called Griffith for a response, he "declined to discuss negotiations."
At what point did anyone from Minnesota (other than me) blast the Sun?
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womens_hoops
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| Posted: 12/28/04 12:44 pm ::: |
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Incidentally, I agree with Aleep and 4ever.
It's true that SMS wasn't sold on Whalen. From inside the Lynx, it was more Glen Taylor who wanted her (and he may have been willing to give anything but Smith), but he left the final decision to his coach, as he should have.
Yeah, Minnesota fans need to learn to love someone other than their local white girls. We have, after all, one of the 5 or 10 best women's basketball players in the world on our team already. But to some of the so-called fans around here, there's only one women's basketball player in the world who matters, and she's now on the Sun.
I'd like to get McCarville, but it ain't gonna happen. So be it. If Harrower is back and Katie is healthy, we'll be fine on the court. If our attendance doesn't pick up, we don't deserve a team.
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4ever_bball_fan
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
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| Posted: 12/28/04 12:50 pm ::: |
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I think the Lynx will be a blast to watch this year. They play hard nosed basketball and can turn it up and come from behind in a heartbeat.
Believe me, having endured the Comets season last year, you look for other teams from whom to get your hoop fixes.
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dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 12/28/04 12:52 pm ::: |
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I was referring to all the statements about the Lynx doing "everything in their power" to get Lindsay. Obviously, according to the Sun at least, they didn't. By making the statements they did, they painted the Sun as the evil empire stealing the treasures of Minnesota. Not exactly fair don't you think?
And believe me, I know what Lynx fans are going through, with trying to get through to the Lindsay only Gopher fans. If anyone has that problem, it's the Sun, trying to convert the Diana/Suzie crowd to root for the Sun. It's so frustrating that people in CT don't pack the casino every night to see this team.
Ask Huskiemaniac, or BBallfan, it sucks that the state doesn't support the team the way it should.
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womens_hoops
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 12/28/04 12:53 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| womens_hoops wrote: |
| He knew the situation in Minnesota. He knew how there were thousands of fans here who were clamoring for Whalen, flooding the Lynx front office with calls and letters. |
Are you sure? If you "don't expect the rest of the country to really understand the depth of her place in Minnesota sports history", why expect Thibault to understand it? Perhaps he thought it was more normal level of homerism.
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(That "don't expect the rest of the country" quote wasn't me, by the way.)
Did he understand? I don't know how he could have failed to. If he followed the NCAA tournament, watched the coveage, read the New York Times, etc., he knew Lindsay's popularity here. And leading up to the draft, the Minneapolis papers were saying every day how getting Lindsay was essential to the health of the franchise.
Indeed, I think he and Sienko knew full well what was going on, and they were trying to use it to their advantage.
My theory is this:
The talks broke down over whether it'd be 3 or 4 players for Lindsay. But even after they broke down on draft day, Thibault and Sienko thought that the Lynx would eventually cave. They thought that public pressure would force the Lynx to make the 4-player deal, and by giving those sorts of quotes to the paper, they were actually trying to stoke the fires, increase public pressure.
Here's what Sienko said, eg:
"[Lynx] management is very clear that you don't give up your team to attract one player. But if it's for the health of the franchise . . . maybe you do make the sacrifice."
In other words: you don't want to give up four players, and it's not a fair trade talent-wise, but your franchise is dying, so you'd better do it or else you might be out of business.
Now, if that was what was going on, it was a pretty shrewd strategy. We could argue about whether it was unethical, given the nature of the WNBA right now, and given the precarious position of the Lynx. Thibault defenders will no doubt say: hey, that's just the hardball world of professional sports. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Fair enough.
But don't give me any revisionist crap now about how Thibault never considered a trade.
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dtsnms
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| Posted: 12/28/04 1:05 pm ::: |
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You're mixing apples and oranges now. First you talk about Mike, then you quote Sienko.
Sienko is GM; I put nothing past him. I also do not think highly of him as a person, so I wouldn't be surprised by anything.
Mike however only responded in my opinion to the Lynx quotes I had heard before he spoke, that they had done everything in their power, and the Sun wouldn't trade.
Now that's revisionist history! And I still say Mike would have made a trade with Katie Smith and Tamika WIlliams, so that's what he's talking about. Never denied he didn't think of a trade with them. Just not the Helen Darling and the other picks trade.
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womens_hoops
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| Posted: 12/28/04 1:08 pm ::: |
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| dtsnms wrote: |
| I was referring to all the statements about the Lynx doing "everything in their power" to get Lindsay. Obviously, according to the Sun at least, they didn't. By making the statements they did, they painted the Sun as the evil empire stealing the treasures of Minnesota. Not exactly fair don't you think? |
I don't know how anything said by the Lynx ever painted the Sun (or the Sting) as an evil empire.
The Lynx faced an enormous amount of pressure from fans both before and after the draft. As SMS said, they got a lot of abuse.
But their line to the fans and the press was always the same: we'll do everything we can to get Lindsay, but we won't give up the whole franchise, and in particular, we won't trade Katie Smith. At the end of the day, we want to win.
They never said the CT or Charlotte was wrong for rejecting trade offers. They never said that those teams were unreasonable in their demands. They simply said that they'd done what they could, but that it hadn't worked.
Even after Thibault said that the Lynx were the unreasonable ones, that it was the Lynx who had failed to make "anything that resembles a good trade offer," that they had not offered any players of "good stature," that they hadn't "stepped up," Roger Griffith's response was: no comment.
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womens_hoops
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 12/28/04 1:13 pm ::: |
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| dtsnms wrote: |
You're mixing apples and oranges now. First you talk about Mike, then you quote Sienko.
Sienko is GM; I put nothing past him. I also do not think highly of him as a person, so I wouldn't be surprised by anything.
Mike however only responded in my opinion to the Lynx quotes I had heard before he spoke, that they had done everything in their power, and the Sun wouldn't trade.
Now that's revisionist history! And I still say Mike would have made a trade with Katie Smith and Tamika WIlliams, so that's what he's talking about. Never denied he didn't think of a trade with them. Just not the Helen Darling and the other picks trade. |
I don't think much of Sienko either. I think they were working in tandem on this one. T-Bone did most of the talking in the press.
Suppose you are Mike and a Minnesota reporter calls you and says, "The Lynx say they've done everything possible to get Lindsay, is that true?"
Why not just respond: "Well, we've had some talks, but we weren't able to reach a deal, and beyond that, we won't comment about trade talks."
Again, that's exactly how Charlotte responded to the same question.
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p_d_swanson
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| Posted: 12/28/04 1:16 pm ::: |
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| There are elements of truth on both sides of this debate. Connecticut did make it clear to Minnesota that the pick wasn't available. And the Sun then did turn around and pitch a different line for public consumption. Probably the fairest way to characterize the discussions would be to say that they never advanced past the outline stage. In hindsight, the non-deal appears to have worked out well for both teams.
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dtsnms
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| Posted: 12/28/04 1:25 pm ::: |
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I agree with PD. Here is the link, by the way to the article you've mentioned in the star tribune.
What Mike said was "So far they haven't made anything that resembles a good trade offer. For a team to say they've done everything they could do to try to land her would not be an accurate statement."
and
"You have to think about offering players of pretty good stature," Thibault said. "That has not been done."
So where's the over the top blaming and criticizing of the Lynx you've been referring to? I don't see it here. You quoted the part of the article about Lynx management, but you forgot this part apparently. Sounds to me just what I said. Mike responded to the "we've done everything" statements, and matter of factly stated they had not been offered any "players of pretty good stature" (ie Smith or Williams, I assume).
http://www.startribune.com/stories/503/4726127.html
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womens_hoops
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| Posted: 12/28/04 1:54 pm ::: |
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Where's the part where anyone from Minnesota slammed CT or painted them as the evil empire?
I don't know with certainty what offers were made. The basic point is fairly simple: trade negotiations should generally stay out of the press, and you don't criticize another team for failing to make a trade.
The Lynx never referred specifically to Charlotte or Connecticut. They never said anyone else was unreasonable. They simply said to the fans: we'll do everything we can, but we probably can't get her, please come support us anyway.
Thibault could have just said we weren't going to trade her no matter what. He could have just said we don't comment about trade negotiations. Instead, he said that the Lynx didn't "step up" (in the Courant, link no longer available for free), and that the Lynx didn't put together anything resembling a good trade offer.
People can judge for themselves who acted with class and who didn't.
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womens_hoops
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| Posted: 12/28/04 2:13 pm ::: |
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| dtsnms wrote: |
| I agree with PD. |
So you agree that CT made it clear that the pick wasn't available, but then turned around and pitched a different line for public consumption?
If nothing else, doesn't that at least make T-Bone a little duplicitous?
And assume for a moment that Mike was adamant from Day One that he wasn't trading her, and that (other than some preliminary discussions), he made it clear from the outset that the pick wasn't available.
Then Pam Schmid calls, asks him "The Lynx say they've done everything possible, is that true?"
Isn't the answer then: "well, yeah, they have done everything possible, but I've been adamant from Day One that I'm not trading her, and I made it clear to them from the outset that we weren't trading that pick. So everything possible wasn't good enough."
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dtsnms
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| Posted: 12/28/04 2:28 pm ::: |
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No, I agree that there was truth on both sides. Okay, if you're the Sun, and you've been offered what you don't think is the best offer, how do you react to these exact quotes from SMS:
"We've kind of done almost everything that we can do. I don't know what else could happen unless someone else approached us," she said.
"We don't know if the two picks combined would do anything," she said. "Anything like that still hasn't been determined."
"I think if we don't get her, we'll get a lot of abuse," McConnell Serio said. "If we don't get Lindsay, I hope they will embrace the two players we do get in the draft and not hold it against them that they're not Lindsay. We made every effort to make it happen. "
" . . . It's the pressure that people are trying to put on us that we need to get her. I mean, it's just affected everything we've done."
See? All Mike said was to say you've done everything is not correct. And SMS said it to the press not once, but at least twice, I'm just not looking for any more!
And I've said countless times in here, Katie Smith? Tamika Williams? Yes, Mike would have listened and perhaps a trade could have happened. Helen Darling? not in their opinion a player of true value.
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