RebKell's Junkie Boards

[LibWNBAFan]

All-Defense Teams: I know these will spark some debate, especially the presence of DMJ and Wauters on the first team. I tried to include players who reflect the league leading teams statistically in opponents' FG % to a reasonable extent. LA still leads in that category, and since most agree that backcourt defense has not been what has spurred them on, and DMJ usually guards a top player on the other team, that's gotta count for something. Some of these players might struggle in one form of defense, but excel in another form which makes up for it. Like, you don't want Tina Thompson out in space, but in terms of interior defense she is strong. Also, her team is very good defensively. Michelle Snow is solid close to the basket but not great in space. She is also an active help defender, and a big reason why her team is strong defensively...so in spite of her negative past rep, I included her. Moore is another example of a player who occasionally gets beaten by quicker players, but uses her size and physicality to annoy others. Also, she is one of the league's best double-teaming guards, which makes her an integral part of NY's defensive scheme. When she was out, we saw just how significant her role was in the Liberty D. Most of the others were no-brainers. Leslie has definitely lost a step, but still has enough physical ability and smarts to make the list. Not to mention how much LA's defense suffers in her absence. Lauren Jackson's DPOY last season was probably a reach, but she is still certainly a strong defender who alters the way offenses attack Seattle. I added Catchings on the benefit of her recent performance.

Others who I considered included Amber Holt, Alexis Hornbuckle, Essence Carson, Nicky Anosike, Taj McWilliams-Franklin and Vickie Johnson. It's hard with rookies because they show flashes of brilliance and flashes of inconsistency. Plus, they don't all play extended minutes. Essence is an example. She has had shutdown games this season against Nolan and Douglas, but she has also struggled with the savvy of Lawson and Whalen.
And it's hard to defend anyone in games where you spend 25-30 minutes on the bench, regardless of how good you are when you are out there.
Here it is. Fire away.

Position Player Team Distinction
G T. Penicheiro SAC 1ST TEAM
G D. Nolan DET 1ST TEAM
F K. Smith DET 1ST TEAM
F D. Milton-Jones LA 1ST TEAM
C A. Wauters SA 1ST TEAM

G T. Bevilaqua IND 2ND TEAM
G A. Beard WAS 2ND TEAM
F K. Douglas IND 2ND TEAM
F L. Jackson SEA 2ND TEAM
C L. Leslie LA 2ND TEAM

G L. Moore NY 3RD TEAM
G T. Wright SEA 3RD TEAM
F T. Catchings IND 3RD TEAM
F T. Thompson HOU 3RD TEAM
C M. Snow HOU 3RD TEAM
C T. Sutton-Brown IND 3RD TEAM

[Thrillrider08]

4 players from Indiana You better believe it.

_________________
Fever STH since 2005

I bleed Orange. Go Lady Vols!

http://twitter.com/TravisInIndy

[DTP]

I think Pierson and Ford are a little too underrated defensively. And if there was a third team give me Hornbuckle and Wiggins over Moore and Wright and Anosike over TSB and Snow.

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"Thousands of hearts broken so a billionaire can save a minute fraction of her wealth...This is just beyond sad."

X_______________

[LibWNBAFan]

Yeah I considered Pierson more strongly than Ford...only because Ford struggled a good deal early in the year due to her injuries. In past seasons Ford would rightfully have been first team and has probably been somewhat underrated defensively through her career. To me Pierson is solid but less consistent than some....though I could see adding her.

[toad455]

FIRST TEAM
G-T. Bevilaqua, IND
G-D. Nolan, DET
F-K. Douglas, IND
F-L. Jackson, SEA
C-L. Leslie, LAS

SECOND TEAM
G-T. Penicheiro, SAC
G-L. Moore, NYL
F-K. Smith, DET
F-C. Parker, LAS
C-N. Anosike, MIN

THIRD TEAM
G-A. Hornbuckle, DET
G-A. Beard, WAS
F-T. Thompson, HOU
F-T. Catchings, IND
C-A. Wauters, SAN

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LET'S GO LIBERTY!!!!!!

[Thrillrider08]

[UTexRulz23]

Toads looks pretty similar to what mine would look like.

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The Houston Comets disbanding will always be the biggest black cloud in the history of the WNBA. Pitiful.

Avatar: My BEAUTIFUL niece Sasha Claire!

[Richyyy]

[GEF34]

First Team
Tully Bevilaqua, Indiana Fever
Deanna Nolan, Detroit Shock
Lisa Leslie, Los Angeles Sparks
DeLisha Milton-Jones, Los Angeles Sparks
Katie Douglas, Indiana Fever

Second Team
Alexis Hornbuckle, Detroit Shock
Katie Smith, Detroit Shock
Tammy Sutton-Brown, Indiana Fever
Lauren Jackson, Seattle Storm
Candace Parker, Los Angeles Sparks

[LibWNBAFan]

Yes. With a number of really good rookies on the defensive end, there's lots of room for debate. I don't think you can go too wrong either way with Anosike or Sutton-Brown. Or with Hornbuckle and Wiggins vs. other perimeter players.

[DTP]

First Team:
G- Smith, Det
G- Nolan, Det
F- Douglas, Ind
F- Jackson, Sea
C- Leslie, LAS

Second Team:
G- Bevilaqua, Ind
G Hornbuckle, Det
F- Catchings, Ind
F- Ford, Det
C- Anosike, Min

_________________
www.myspace.com/dtp_3

"Thousands of hearts broken so a billionaire can save a minute fraction of her wealth...This is just beyond sad."

X_______________

[potd41]

Gee, no one from Phoenix

_________________
Well, she could have said "Golly gee whiz mother fuckers".

[mercfan3]

Chelsea Newton should be first team, IMO.

Ticha
Smith
Newton
Anosike
Leslie

_________________
TALENT

What it takes to play a gay pirate, a gay candymaker, and a gay mad hatter, and still land a role as John Dilinger.

[LibWNBAFan]

All-Defense Teams: I know these will spark some debate, especially the presence of DMJ and Wauters on the first team. I tried to include players who reflect the league leading teams statistically in opponents' FG % to a reasonable extent. LA still leads in that category, and since most agree that backcourt defense has not been what has spurred them on, and DMJ usually guards a top player on the other team, that's gotta count for something. Some of these players might struggle in one form of defense, but excel in another form which makes up for it. Like, you don't want Tina Thompson out in space, but in terms of interior defense she is strong. Also, her team is very good defensively. Michelle Snow is solid close to the basket but not great in space. She is also an active help defender, and a big reason why her team is strong defensively...so in spite of her negative past rep, I included her. Moore is another example of a player who occasionally gets beaten by quicker players, but uses her size and physicality to annoy others. Also, she is one of the league's best double-teaming guards, which makes her an integral part of NY's defensive scheme. When she was out, we saw just how significant her role was in the Liberty D. Most of the others were no-brainers. Leslie has definitely lost a step, but still has enough physical ability and smarts to make the list. Not to mention how much LA's defense suffers in her absence. Lauren Jackson's DPOY last season was probably a reach, but she is still certainly a strong defender who alters the way offenses attack Seattle. I added Catchings on the benefit of her recent performance.

Others who I considered included Amber Holt, Alexis Hornbuckle, Essence Carson, Nicky Anosike, Taj McWilliams-Franklin and Vickie Johnson. It's hard with rookies because they show flashes of brilliance and flashes of inconsistency. Plus, they don't all play extended minutes. Essence is an example. She has had shutdown games this season against Nolan and Douglas, but she has also struggled with the savvy of Lawson and Whalen.
And it's hard to defend anyone in games where you spend 25-30 minutes on the bench, regardless of how good you are when you are out there.
Here it is. Fire away.

Position Player Team Distinction
G T. Penicheiro SAC 1ST TEAM
G D. Nolan DET 1ST TEAM
F K. Smith DET 1ST TEAM
F D. Milton-Jones LA 1ST TEAM
C A. Wauters SA 1ST TEAM

G T. Bevilaqua IND 2ND TEAM
G A. Beard WAS 2ND TEAM
F K. Douglas IND 2ND TEAM
F L. Jackson SEA 2ND TEAM
C L. Leslie LA 2ND TEAM

G L. Moore NY 3RD TEAM
G C. Newton SAC 3RD TEAM
F T. Catchings IND 3RD TEAM
F T. Thompson HOU 3RD TEAM
C M. Snow HOU 3RD TEAM
C T. Sutton-Brown IND 3RD TEAM

[LibWNBAFan]

Edited to include Newton as third team.

[p_d_swanson]

Net Defense Plus/Minus Leaders
(min. 500 Minutes Played)

+10.1 -- Nakia Sanford, Was.
+6.9 -- Chasity Melvin, Chi.
+6.4 -- Lauren Jackson, Sea.
+5.9 -- Sheryl Swoopes, Sea.
+5.8 -- Janel McCarville, N.Y.

+5.6 -- Cheryl Ford, Det.
+5.6 -- Michelle Snow, Hou.
+5.1 -- Seimone Augustus, Min.
+4.3 -- Hamchetou Maiga-Ba, Hou.
+3.7 -- Monique Currie, Was.

+3.6 -- Erin Buescher, S.A.
+3.2 -- Ticha Penicheiro, Sac.
+3.2 -- Rebekkah Brunson, Sac.
+3.2 -- Lisa Leslie, L.A.
+3.1 -- Cathrine Kraayeveld, N.Y.

[luvDhoops]

[QMcCall3]

There aren't any perfect defensive statistics, but here's an approach to choosing All-Defensive teams with statistics:

http://rethinkbball.blogspot.com/2008/08/olympic-break-all-defensive-teams-yield.html

Parker should definitely be considered based on her numbers:

A few surprises (to me): Sheryl Swoopes, Janel McCarville, Sancho Lyttle (honorable mention), Seimone Augustus (honorable mention), and Morenike Atunrase (honorable mention).

DPOY: Lisa Leslie

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"Basketball is like poetry in motion. Just comin' down the court, you got a defender in your way. You take him to the left. You take him back to the right. And he's fallin' back, and you just "J" right in his face. And then you look at him, and then you say, "What?" - Jesus Shuttlesworth

[BCBG25]

Moore should be nowhere near a defensive team this year. She has been torched by almost every PG in the league.

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I'll change this tagline again when FFO resigns.

[LibWNBAFan]

[mercfan3]

[QMcCall3]

[psheehy]

Not surprisingly, Q's data leans towards crediting players on the statistically better defense teams better than any of the subjective lists.

Any all defensive team list for the season to date should have a strong concentration of players from Indiana, Seattle, LA and Detroit with smatterings of individual standouts from other teams.

As far as the Swoopes question...she seemed to pick her spots to play defense early in the season. She had some great lock down possessions and some old school steals, but she didn't play defense for 40 minutes. As the season has progressed she has increased her defensive efforts and seems to have figured out her role in the team defense.

Swoopes and Wright have been the Storm's best perimeter defenders, though Tanisha seems to vary from adequate to strong from game to game. As a team, they have cut 4 percentage points off their 2007 defensive field goal percentage from 43% in 2007 to 39% this season.

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Bring the Comets and the Monarchs BACK!

[LibWNBAFan]

[24duzitall]

catch on the third team? did you hit your head or something?
she is currently fourth in steals per game. not bad for someone coming off a significant injury.

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RIP my sweet boy Indi...my grumpy old man Charlie...precious Oliver and my sweet girl Faith

[LibWNBAFan]

[24duzitall]

i looked at some of the stats before i questioned you leaving catch out...nothing unobjective about it. true, she is not up to speed. she does have some stats that are better than a few of your first teamers though-like tweety has played in 10 more games and has the same number of steals. i realize that there is more than shows up on the stat sheet.

_________________
RIP my sweet boy Indi...my grumpy old man Charlie...precious Oliver and my sweet girl Faith

[p_d_swanson]

Following is a team-by-team breakdown of primary post defenders using plus/minus data, which is more useful when comparing players' effectiveness within a specific team than across the entire WNBA. Totals for the 3/4 types listed (Buescher, Catchings, Little, Milton-Jones) are aggregate. Perhaps one player overlooked in the discussion is Alison Bales, who leads two different teams:

[LibWNBAFan]

While interesting, the single biggest flaw in those numbers is that they do not account for pace, or number of possessions faced when certain players are playing.

Take NY for example. I think some of us do actually recognize that physical post play is something that Tiffany Jackson has to work on. However, McCarville's +5.8 is really skewed due to the pace that the Lib play when Jackson is in the game as opposed to Janel. Typically (not always, but usually) Jackson replaces Janel. Oftentimes, especially early in the season, Jackson would be in the game when the Lib would be in trapping situations, which increases the pace of the game dramatically. Chances are the Lib face more possessions per 40 minutes when Jackson is in the game as opposed to Janel. Even on the offensive end, the Lib offense executes sets with less pace when Janel is playing, which also will result in fewer defensive possessions.

Now, maybe I am not completely understanding the numbers, and possessions are also accounted for? It appears that the "off" and "on" numbers equate to average points against per 40 minutes if I am understanding correctly.

It could possibly also explain why faster pace players have some lower ratings than certain counterparts even if they are better or roughly equivalent defensive players...e.g.....Anosike vs. Hayden.....Wauters vs. Riley....Parker vs. C. Thomas....Lyttle vs. Thompson. Pace is not the only thing involved, as the presence of certain players on the court might lead to turnovers and easy baskets the other way. Players who are grouped with certain players in a rotation may also factor in. Some stats might be affected by players who play more or fewer minutes in garbage time. Nolan for instance has a minus rating according to that think bball blog. Nolan averages 34 mpg, and in many games only sits for 2-5 minutes. It's not too likely that the team improves in the few minutes that she sits in those games, so the cause of the rating is probably somewhere in the far fewer games where she played less than 30 minutes...and most of those games were blowouts. According to those numbers, Indy is a better defensive team without Catch than they are with her. I understand the rationale for using the numbers, even just to compare players within a team. But there are a number of examples where you can cite the numbers and understand that there is a deeper reason as to why they show what they show. I mean, nobody thinks that Christi Thomas is LA's best post defender. And Sanford's high rating probably has more to do with the fact that Langhorne is a sieve on the defensive end than because Sanford is so great. So, they are certainly interesting to explore, and thought provoking. They are also an indicator that one can look deeper to examine why the numbers show what they show.

[QMcCall3]

[QMcCall3]

[p_d_swanson]

[TDAO]

The studies I've seen (in the NBA, alas) haven't shown many players who actually make a difference in pace. There are a handful -- Steve Nash, for example. While per-possession numbers are preferable, per-40 minute numbers should be OK since we're comparing within teams.

The other thing to remember with a lot of these seemingly confounding defensive plus-minus numbers is that plus-minus tends to be very noisy even within an 82-game season. That goes more than double for a 34-game season, especially one with 1/4 left to play.

[LibWNBAFan]

Thanks to everyone for the input and for the extreme amount of effort that you all put in to put together those numbers.

This community as a whole is indeed a very unique one. In the approximate time of 14 months that I have been a member of this board I have gotten answers to countless statistical questions that I could not have gotten elsewhere. I've gotten to know some nice people as well as a few surprising behind-the-scenes people that one would never have suspected without knowing of this board. I've had a complete stranger from out-of-state offer me free tickets to a basketball game. I've seen family members of players (and I suspect coaches too, though I have no direct proof) post in support of their families. There's no other sports board quite like it.

[LibWNBAFan]