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jaye
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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 Posted: 10/16/07 1:25 am ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
Orlando's owners were no great prize either (remember the hubbub about one of them writing against gay rights legislation and sending it on Magic stationary?) and the Sol were folded *despite* average support. I *dare* any of you to tell bibb the Sol didn't have fans. I DARE YOU.
Anyone who talks shit about the first three years of Charlotte's existence probably came into the league in 2000 or later and wouldn't know Vicky Bullett from a bag of Miss Vickie's potato chips.
The point remains: good owners will find a way to succeed anywhere, bad owners will find a way to fail anywhere. |
Not every folded franchise is from a bad owner. You seem to treat it as an absolute. A franchise that isn't making money despite incredible efforts doesn't mean it has a bad owner.
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p_d_swanson
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
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| Posted: 10/16/07 2:25 am ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| Not every folded franchise is from a bad owner. You seem to treat it as an absolute. A franchise that isn't making money despite incredible efforts doesn't mean it has a bad owner. |
Five of the six franchise dissolutions/relocations to date in the WNBA -- Cleveland, Miami, Orlando, Portland, Utah -- were a direct result of the 2002 change that left the individual teams responsible for player salaries. They may or may not have been "bad" owners, but they clearly lacked financial commitment...
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go4gal
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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MsTena-T
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
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| Posted: 10/16/07 11:40 am ::: |
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I am on board with Smoov & Cam.
I still hold to the fact that if you can't maintain a franchise in NY, LA or Houston you have a BIG problem . . . considering you've be bumping your gums for years about being a major sport.
IMO, expanding at this point is a dumb-ass move and expanding into Atlanta (considering it's historical support of professional sports in general) is an even "dumber" ass-dumb ass move.
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bullsky
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: 10/16/07 12:06 pm ::: |
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| MsTena-T wrote: |
| IMO, expanding at this point is a dumb-ass move and expanding into Atlanta (considering it's historical support of professional sports in general) is an even "dumber" ass-dumb ass move. |
Why?
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harlem_basketball
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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Location: Gee I don't know...Harlem maybe?
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| Posted: 10/16/07 12:30 pm ::: |
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| MsTena-T wrote: |
| I still hold to the fact that if you can't maintain a franchise in NY, LA or Houston you have a BIG problem . . . |
 I can see LA being on the upswing due to their potential franchise changing lottery pick, Lisa's post it notes returning and their ownership situation but those other two scare me and I don't know which situation is worse between the two. |
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BCBG25
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 10/16/07 12:32 pm ::: |
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| Orange][Krush wrote: |
| MsTena-T wrote: |
| IMO, expanding at this point is a dumb-ass move and expanding into Atlanta (considering it's historical support of professional sports in general) is an even "dumber" ass-dumb ass move. |
Why? |
If anything, it's not a priority. And all indications seem to point out that if the league waited another year, other good candidates would show up (Bentonville, Denver) and you'd have competition which in my Porterian point of view is never a bad thing. And it's a bad year for expansion (Olympics). And if the rules are different for expansion this time, that sends a bad message to other prospective/current expansion teams (read your Sky) and chartered franchises could be pissed off. Do you want me to go on?
Once again, the league is ignoring the big pink elephant in the room.
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bullsky
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harlem_basketball
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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| Posted: 10/16/07 12:40 pm ::: |
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I just like the whole "he doesn't care if there's only 3,000 people in attendance" while playing in a 20,000 seat arena because that looks great for the league as a whole.  |
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thatGAgirl
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 10/16/07 1:23 pm ::: |
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It's a shame they're playing at Philips as well, if attendance is only going to be 2 or 3,000 (or even if it's 5 or 6,000). The Sky's attendance looks like crap on paper, but it wouldn't have to go up much to look okay on television and create a decent atmosphere in their itty-bitty arena. Philips holds something around 20,000 and tiny attendances are going to look awful, and affect the experience for fans who do try out the league.
The league being so apparently desperate to get expansion done now, along with their willingness to go somewhere where crappy attendance is fully expected (not just a possible negative they'll strive hard to overcome), definitely worries me slightly.
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CB
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
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BCBG25
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 10/16/07 1:59 pm ::: |
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It's not really about us *embracing* this owner. Of course we all wish our teams had commited owners with deep pockets and long term thinking.
It's actually about Atlanta embracing this team. We're not being pessimistic. There is empiric evidence that the city is not really into its sports teams and the WNBA really doesn't need another struggling franchise. And really, I don't buy into the whole this guy doesn't care about the financial losses, he just wants to have his team. The WNBA isn't a charity endeavour.
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CB
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
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| Posted: 10/16/07 3:36 pm ::: |
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| I used "you" in a general sense, not to anyone in particular.
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Shed
Joined: 16 Feb 2005
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| Posted: 10/16/07 5:37 pm ::: |
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Sorry if this has been posted.
http://sports.espn.go.com/wnba/news/story?id=3066469
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CB
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 10/16/07 6:24 pm ::: |
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[quote="CB"]
| Quote: |
| "We have a significant talent pool with the SEC and ACC, which are very strong conferences for men's and women's basketball," Borders said in May. "We would have this type of opportunity for women to leave college and go on and play in the Southeast in the WNBA." |
Sorry, but that is a crock of shit. Yes, there is talent, but not as much talent as the pundits like to tout. How many college stars actually make rosters? Look at Brooke Smith. Where is she today?
And how about attendance? REAL attendance. Other than Tennessee and Maryland, no SEC or ACC team averaged over 6000 fans per game.
http://www.ncaa.org/stats/w_basketball/attendance/2006-07/2006-07_w_basketball_attendance.pdf
Georgia averaged 4485 per game last year, and that was with the draw of Tennessee (and the Lady Vols fan who traveled to the game).
The pool of men's player...lots of talent from the ACC and SEC. And the Hawks still don't draw.
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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| Posted: 10/16/07 6:56 pm ::: |
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| Orange][Krush wrote: |
| I think that if a group assembles in a major market like Atlanta and comes up with a solid amount of interest OR a rich person with lots of money to spend(and lose), then why not? |
Agreed. Getting the south onboard for the WNBA TV package and the Olympics exposure is an opportunity Donna couldn't pass up, especially with a group and owner as committed and qualified as this group.
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CB
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
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| Posted: 10/16/07 6:58 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| CB wrote: |
| "We have a significant talent pool with the SEC and ACC, which are very strong conferences for men's and women's basketball," Borders said in May. "We would have this type of opportunity for women to leave college and go on and play in the Southeast in the WNBA." |
Sorry, but that is a crock of shit. Yes, there is talent, but not as much talent as the pundits like to tout. How many college stars actually make rosters? Look at Brooke Smith. Where is she today?
And how about attendance? REAL attendance. Other than Tennessee and Maryland, no SEC or ACC team averaged over 6000 fans per game.
http://www.ncaa.org/stats/w_basketball/attendance/2006-07/2006-07_w_basketball_attendance.pdf
Georgia averaged 4485 per game last year, and that was with the draw of Tennessee (and the Lady Vols fan who traveled to the game).
The pool of men's player...lots of talent from the ACC and SEC. And the Hawks still don't draw. |
Brooke Smith? She went to Stanford, West Coast.
As far as I am concerned, little girls in all parts of the country should be able to see women of the WNBA and have a team to cheer for and realize it might be them one day. If this guy is taking this community investment on, I assume he is smart enough to have aggresive marketing for his team.
I just think it's kind of nuts to think this might be bad for the league. It's not to anyone personal, I just think this is a very good thing.
He is a non-NBA owner, some of whom, Leslie Alexander of Houston included, just decided to drop their teams, when it is pocket change for them.
The Hawks don't draw but they still have a team. If Atlanta averages about as much as other WNBA teams, then that's a good draw IMO.
If there is an owner willingly owning the team, it's good. If it folds for lack of attendance years down the road, it still was worth the try IMO. I don't know why, I think it is going to work!
edit to fix the quotes...again. 
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 10/16/07 9:31 pm ::: |
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| CB wrote: |
| Brooke Smith? She went to Stanford, West Coast. |
My point wasn't what school she went to, but someone who was highly regarded as a talent among the pundits...and isn't on a roster.
| CB wrote: |
As far as I am concerned, little girls in all parts of the country should be able to see women of the WNBA and have a team to cheer for and realize it might be them one day. If this guy is taking this community investment on, I assume he is smart enough to have aggresive marketing for his team.
I just think it's kind of nuts to think this might be bad for the league. It's not to anyone personal, I just think this is a very good thing.
He is a non-NBA owner, some of whom, Leslie Alexander of Houston included, just decided to drop their teams, when it is pocket change for them.
The Hawks don't draw but they still have a team. If Atlanta averages about as much as other WNBA teams, then that's a good draw IMO.
If there is an owner willingly owning the team, it's good. If it folds for lack of attendance years down the road, it still was worth the try IMO. I don't know why, I think it is going to work!
edit to fix the quotes...again. |
Donna is putting an expansion team in a bad sports two with little support for women's basketball. The owner knows the team won't make money. The owner knows attendance will likely be bad. How long are you going to pump money into an investment that very likely won't make money? The only way for this to make money is to rely on corporate sponsors, and eventually they will dry up unless there are butts in the seats.
Phoenix has aggressive marketing and an owner with millions. That doesn't mean the team makes money. You keep talking about non-NBA owners, but the people in LA, Chicago, and Houston need to turn a profit (though Chicago seems to be in the best position) otherwise they might be relocating too.
Yes, he has money. Yes, he sounds committed. All good...for now. The question is how many years of losses does he want to sustain? And how many franchises need to fold or be relocated (Portland, Orlando, Utah, Cleveland, Charlotte, and Miami) before we figure out that maybe expansion isn't a good idea until the other franchises are viable and there is at least an interest among the public? And while those other franchises had different reasons, it doesn't change the fact they were folded or relocated...something corporate investors will take note of.
And color me concerned when some on this board treat the WNBA as Title IX instead of a business.
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bullsky
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: 10/16/07 10:25 pm ::: |
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Can we all let Atlanta at least get through one season before everyone freaks out about poor attendence/support? I'm not sure that support is a variable that you can easily determine.
For instance, Minnesota has had great crowds collegiately. The Barn is one of the toughest places to play, yet the Minnesota Lynx(located in the same town) struggle to get into the upper level of attendence in the league.
Another example. Look at New Mexico. They have HUGE numbers for women's basketball. Explain to me how that makes sense. It's hard to, right?
Sometimes support is unexplainable. Let's at least give them a season before we start freaking out.
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ZuG102
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Posted: 10/16/07 11:08 pm ::: |
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| IMO, you can't compare attendance between wcbb and the WNBA. A large number of college fans are only go to games to root for their school, not women's basketball, while most of the fans at W games are fans of women's basketball. The U of M has great attendance and the Lynx draw poorly. UCLA has horrible attendance, but the Sparks have had decent numbers show up.
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MNfan22
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 10/16/07 11:33 pm ::: |
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| Orange][Krush wrote: |
For instance, Minnesota has had great crowds collegiately. The Barn is one of the toughest places to play, yet the Minnesota Lynx(located in the same town) struggle to get into the upper level of attendence in the league.
Sometimes support is unexplainable. .... |
This isn't that unexplainable. Theres a different dynamic w/college & the pros. Here, Univ of MN is the only major D1 program in this state so there is no conflict of loyalty. Some people will say they prefer the energy & excitment of the college atmosphere.
The lite version; WCBB is played during the traditional season, in the winter, when it's cold. The Univ of MN isn't going anywhere and if only 1000 people showed up (like 5 yrs ago when the program wasn't a winning program) there would still be a college team.
WNBA played in the summer. There's a MLB team here as well as a million & 1 other things to do in this area involving time better spent then watching a losing team indoors when it's 80 & sunny.
I don't see anyone 'freaking out'. I see fans expressing concerns re the business of the league that they've grown to love. In the last 3 yrs we've gone thourgh expansion, contraction and expansion and along the way rules seem to get bent and/or changed with each event.
This league is far from stable. So the question is valid, how long is this dude willing to take a lose ? My hope is that he's making a loooong-term commitment to this win or lose. Even then there are no guarantees.
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