RebKell's Junkie Boards

[KatValeska]

I am a politically active radical queer.

I'm also a women's college basketball fanatic.

I pulled for Liberty to win tonight. Because they were a huge underdog and I love upsets. Did rooting for them make me a homophobe by association?

I served in the military before "don't ask don't tell" - was I supporting homophobia?

I'm not certain everything homophobic can be equated with being a member of the Nazi party.

Bottom line, I guess I just reckon there are better means of battling the rising tide of LGBT hatred in this country than to hate on basketball players because they attend an evangelical christian school.

None of those players, to the best of my knowledge, have ever spoken an anti-gay slur or perpetrated a hate crime upon any member of the queer community.

How do any of us know that players we root for and love the best haven't been passing around petitions to get anti-gay measures on a state ballot during the off season? We don't. If we learned of such, would we be better off hating on that person or would there be better means of actively countering such activity?

[womens_hoops]

Alepp --

no one would ever fault you for "associating" with your grandpa. You can't choose your grandpa. You can, however, choose where you work and where you go to school.

I don't assume that every Lib player and coach shares every aspect of Falwell's philosophy or that philosophy of their school. But the fact that they are willing to support that institution is a strike against them, in my mind. It doesn't mean I think they're all bigots, or that they're all bad, or anything of the sort. It just means when I consider them as people, I think a little less of them than I would if they were somewhere else, supporting some other institution.

Of course, if they said: "listen, I'm trying to change this place from the inside," that would be great, and a whole different story. But I don't have any reason to believe that that's the case.

Chaos --

it's not a matter of hating on people. It's possible to cheer against a team (and to ridicule their school's founder) without hating the players. I choose to support certain players and teams more or less based on a wide variety of factors. And the fact that a player or team is affiliated with an institution of evil is one reason that I might support them less.

It's not just Liberty. It's Rene Portland. It's Chamique "I wanted to go to a straight school" Holdsclaw. It's every college coach who recruits by telling parents "don't send your kid there -- the coach is a lesbian."

Homophobia in sports, like homophobia everywhere else in society, needs to be fought. Not with hate, but sometimes with exposure and criticism.

What is the best way to make progress? That's an impossible question to answer, but obviously different things work in different situations. Sometimes the way to make progress is to ridicule an old fool like Falwell -- you're not going to convince him, but a lot of other people might see it and say "hey, I don't want to be like that old bigot." Sometimes you make progress by soft-pedaling the issue, talking quietly with friends. Sometimes you make progress by engaging in long, interesting, and spirited debates on message boards.

In my experience, the single best way to make progress on this issue is just to have gay people exist in the world. Ten years ago, my whole family was pretty homophobic. As they got to know my gay friends, they realized the fundamental truth: that gay people are no worse than the rest of us. That realization put their old beliefs to shame. Literally -- to shame. The very experience of interacting with real-life gay people shamed them into changing their minds.

I like the way Liberty plays. Feenstra looks better than I expected. That point guard is pretty sweet. And I still consider Kelley Siemon Deyo to be a friend -- I remain proud of her accomplishments in the game.

But my feelings about Kelley and the team are also affected by my view that they are making a grievous error by supporting that terrible institution. I respect them a little less than I otherwise would. If given the right opportunity (which of course will never come), I would tell them so in the calmest voice I could muster.

Would it do any good? Maybe not. If they buy into their school's nonsense that homosexuality is immoral, their minds will probably never be changed until they have some sort of human relationship with a gay person.

But I will still present my criticism, to them and anyone else who will listen.

[Sass]

womens_hoops, undoubtedly that is the most sensible post on this cluttered topic so far.

[FeFi]

I am of two minds about this, which I think ultimately many of us can relate to in some way. The women's basketball fan in me was really appreciating the play of this team, (Feenstra was incredible), and wondering why this is the first time I've heard anything about the team itself. I had no idea they were this good. The basketball fan wasn't really thinking about who founded their school or the players' or coaches' individual beliefs. It was simply appreciating a great team playing solid hoops and beating some good teams on the way to making it for the first time in the tourney. I mean, wow, what an accomplishment and those players are for real. Who cares where they play?

The social justice advocate in me, however, watched the game and saw Jerry's face near the end and was reminded of his comment about 9/11: "I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen." Liberty U supports many things I oppose and it is no secret to incoming players/coaches/faculty/staff what their mission is. I accept that Liberty is a valid choice for some people. For those people, they have chosen an institution that speaks to them in some personal way. I assume for many that choose that institution, it is not the fight against gays but the Christian mission that speaks to them. It makes me sad that though that that those two things are positioned together...maybe not for the individual, but for this particular institution. I have mixed feelings about the publicity Liberty will now get. But in the grand scheme of things, we each have to pick our personal battles. For me, it will be to confine my support for Liberty to the court and the game of hoops.

And as a gay woman, I have to pick my battles closer to home, which I share with these folks: http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html

[CamrnCrz1974]

FeFi, you take Mariska Hargitay. Chris Meloni is my future husband (assuming David Boreanaz and I don't work out).

[Swoopes_Tompson_Comets22]

Katie Feenstra is AWESOME in high school she was named Western Michigan Player of the Year during senior year … pumped in 30.5 points while corralling 18.5 rebounds and blocking 8.5 shots a game her senior year … grabbed 25 rebounds in one game her senior year …posted a 46 point effort in a game her senior year … totaled 31.4 points and 18.6 rebounds a game her junior season while being named to the first-team all-state squad … also posted 7.5 blocks a game that season … also named to the all-area and all-conference team three times …led team to district championship during junior campaign … helped the Mustangs to 23-1 record and quarterfinal appearance in state tournament her sophomore year.

[bballjunkee212]

I’m gonna start by doing something that may not be very popular here: Defend Rene Portland. Years ago, Rene said she would not recruit an openly gay player. I, for one, am conflicted between being put off by her apparently anti-Lesbian attitude and liking her because she won a NC as a player and appears to be a pretty decent coach- her aversion to post play notwithstanding.

But before we condemn her for what she said, think about it in terms of what she did not say. She did not say she hated or reviled Lesbians. She did not say she thought Lesbians were sinners and an abomination in the eyes of God. She did not say she thought Lesbians should be treated as second class citizens and denied basic civil liberties. All of which have been said by such upright sources as our religious and political leaders.

Rene did not even say she discouraged Lesbians from coming to play at PSU, or that she would ostracize or dismiss Lesbians (although as of this a.m. we could wonder). All she said was that she would not recruit an openly gay player.

But would Rene be any more willing to recruit an openly heterosexual player? Think about the trouble a self-proclaimed heterosexual could cause a team: Lacking focus at practice; missing practice; being late to practice; sniffing after other girls’ boyfriends, chasing after the practice team players and the boy managers, straying on every road trip, pregnancy scares, STDs treated as “personal problems”.

So maybe all Rene really wants is players who keep their personal lives to themselves and maintain a level of respect for the privacy of others. That is totally compatible both with what Rene said, as well as what she didn't say. But maybe Rene knows she operates in a fairly conservative environment but has to say something about the issue. If I was Rene, I might say something clever, which might appear to mean one thing, but, by what is not said, may very well mean something totally different.

But say Rene really meant to express a dislike for Lesbians. She still has not denied them the opportunity to play for PSU, (although the real test might be her treatment of an openly Lesbian walk-on), nor has she, by any report, tried to foster an anti-gay culture in the program. In short, a Lesbian could conceivably play for Rene. And, as I have noted before, what would a Kelly Mazzante do anyway, born and raised in PA, maybe disagreeing with or even opposing Rene’s viewpoint but not to the point of foregoing playing for her state school. The point being, a player who disagreed with Rene, or even opposed her, could still play at PSU without being tarred with Rene’s brush.

Consider, then, a private school with no natural population to draw students from. Rather, its student body is recruited, both actively and passively through the marketing of it programs and philosophies. Say those philosophies are religious tenets. Say those religious tenets are essentially fundamentalist and Christian in nature. Say the school was founded by a man and ministry which preached a message of exclusion, repression, hate and conflict; and condoned state violence against those it would exclude, both at home and abroad. Say that school required incoming students to sign a contract adhering to the basic principles of that so-called ministry. Those students have now made an affirmative choice to align themselves with that ministry and its philosophy. If so, that ministry and its philosophy cannot be opposed without opposing its students- who are, naturally, the next generation of that ministry.

But say these students come to the school too young and naive to fully understand the implications of their choice; too inexperienced to understand that, as they represent the school, they represent the ministry and the philosophy. Even if they view themselves as witnessing their faith, the rest of the world may rightfully view them as ambassadors of the ministry of exclusion, repression, hate, conflict and violence. To allow them their victories because we see them as innocents is to allow the false ministry a victory. If we need any proof of this, consider who (got his puss on the ESPN cameras last night to) bask in, and take credit for, those victories. If we oppose such a ministry and its philosophy, we must oppose its representatives, even the innocent ones.

That said, Katie Feenstra, new-found darling of the tournament, may look unstoppable on the low blocks, but outside ten feet she can't score reliably and is a defensive liability. Or did we miss the fact that she committed two of three fouls going after loose balls? And let us not forget that PSU has been weak in the front line this season, and DePaul is, well, a mid-major without much size and without much bench. And they shot like crap, which was not all to the credit of Liberty’s defense. LSU is considerably more athletic than Liberty at every position. Matching up will create a problem once Fowles comes into the lineup. If LSU plays intense and has a good shooting night, Feenstra might not last 40 minutes.

L SU 89, Liberty 56.

_________________
~Bill

[accommodatingly]

[Keegan]

[womens_hoops]

[womens_hoops]

[bballjunkee212]

No, I'd say that counts as a report. Obviously, I didn't know that her attitude was so extreme.

Be that as it may, I will stand by the other things I wrote. Apparently, due to the university's policies, players who completely oppose Portland could still play at PSU, and maybe do.

I will also stand by what I wrote about that hypothetical university founded by a religious fanatic.

[womens_hoops]

oh, and while we're at it, how bout a few more quotes, printed 3/10/91 in the original Longman article.

"She does make it known when she's recruiting that she doesn't put up with homosexuality."

"[it's common knowledge] that there is no place on the team for lesbians. And if you are one, you'd better keep your mouth shut and hide it."

One player supported the policy because she thought it would lead to less conflict on the team. "I like that she took that stance," said Meggan Yedsena... When Portland recruited her, Yedsena said, the coach said she would revoke the scholarship of a player if she found that the player was a lesbian.

Portland herself refused to speak at the time. "I have training rules. And I will never have to say what my training rules are."

But in 1986, she herself told the Chicago Sun-Times that she didn't want any lesbians on her team.

[Queenie]

[BCBG25]

Meggan Yedsena as in Becky's Meggan Yedsena?

_________________
Kings of the World!

[Keegan]

[BCBG25]

All this talk about the Liberty players being homophobes is quite confusing as the Liberty (professional team) is probably the gayest team in the WNBA.

And the Meggan Yedsena example just comes to show how far players will go to protect their private lives. I mean, they will even try to look like their signifant other

_________________
Kings of the World!

[FeFi]

[gumption72]

I find it just exhausting and sad that political and religious agendas are so tightly woven into the game of women's basketball. Just because I demand of myself to be openminded of everyone-- right, left, in-between or indifferent--there seems to be no room in the stands for me. I am not an expert logician or ethics princess, but I know I love the women's game and am hungry to learn the rules, the history and enjoy the friendly and intelligent debate and banter of the game. I don't see any other sport so infused with agendas. I love the women's game and will continue to be a fan, but can see how hard it will be to attract new fans.

[readyAIMfire53]

" won't it be cool when a team with an openly and outspokenly gay player gets to the Final Four"

Well Duke is a school that warmly welcomes both gay and straight players to the team. Duke's first Final Four team in 1999 featured Michele VanGorp who walked through shopping malls in Durham holding her girlfriend's hand. When Duke beat Tennessee, MVG climbed the railing and went straight up ten rows to where her gorgeous GF in a stunning black dress was sitting to give her a big hug and a smooch. True that Michele did not come out in the media while her team was playing in the Final Four. But her friendship with Hibby (straight but NOT narrow) Howard was symbolic of the open-ness fostered by the Duke program under Coach Gail Goestenkors.

In answer to your question: YES it will be WAY cool when a lesbian player can be just another story aired during March madness, when the media are looking for human interest and ways of connecting the lives of the players with the viewers. I can see it now: an interview with POY candidate plus girlfriend, along with star teammate and her boyfriend, showing how they were able to become such great and comfortable friends on and off the floor because they were not competitors in the dating world.

~rAf

_________________
Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.

~rAf

[KatValeska]

Here's a take on Falwell and Liberty from Mechelle Voepel. Sorry if this has already been posted.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncw/ncaatourney05/columns/story?id=2020499

[momma hoops]

"won't it be cool when a team with an openly and outspokenly gay player gets to the Final Four"..."YES it will be WAY cool when a lesbian player can be just another story aired during March madness, when the media are looking for human interest and ways of connecting the lives of the players with the viewers."

If I may take it one step further, I think it will be the COOLEST when it's not mentioned or cared about if a player is a lesbian. When being outspokenly gay is equivalent to being outspokenly blond or outspokenly aires. When people are judged by their strength of character and when basketball players are judged by their ability to play the sport.

That's my 2 cents, dammit!

_________________
All hail big momma!

[accommodatingly]

[PUmatty]

This is the thread that finally brought me over from the ESPN boards in more than lurker form. Hello all.

Many thoughts floating around in my head after reading 72 messages but I wil leave it at this: I would take Marsters over Boreanz, but would easily take Nicholas Brendan before the extra 20 pounds of the last couple of seasons before either of them. And Eliza would make me reconsider a whole lot of things in a heartbeat.

[CamrnCrz1974]