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eyevolley4
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
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 Posted: 04/28/06 2:21 pm ::: |
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| ILuvCatch wrote: |
| MT_Swoopes wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| Why is LJ rated so much higher than Catchings. |
She's got a ring and an MVP. |
And couldn't beat out Jackie Stiles for rookie of the year. So what? |
Catch and LJ lost out to Stiles. So, that is a push.
I love Catch too. I have since she played Robin to Mique's Batman during her freshman year at UT. I just think it's really hard to put her over a player who is the main reason her team won a WNBA championship and has virtually been an MVP or MVP runner-up almost every season she has been in the league. She only finished behind two women who go by the names of Leslie and Swoopes over the past two years. |
Catch did not lose at to Stiles. She won ROY. She has been the main reason the Fever have won all the games they have. She has also virtually been an MVP or runner-up almost every season she has been been in the league. Seattle getting another #1 pick helped win their title.
Catch has done more to promote the league (on her own) than Jackson. Point, set and match to Tamika! |
Go get a championship and an MVP and keep the FG% over 40 and then maybe I'll think about jumping on board with you...
Catch's resume is awesome, Jackson's is better.
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Slovydal
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 12205
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: 04/28/06 9:00 pm ::: |
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| eyevolley4 wrote: |
Go get a championship and an MVP and keep the FG% over 40 and then maybe I'll think about jumping on board with you...
Catch's resume is awesome, Jackson's is better. |
From WNBA dot com re: All Decade Team consideration:
"Consideration for the team will be based on ability and on-court performance, leadership, sportsmanship and community service as well as contribution to team success and the growth of women's basketball."
Sorry Lauren.
Tamika is out of your league.
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suzy&dee103
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 339
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| Posted: 04/28/06 11:36 pm ::: |
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| If they are basing some of the consideration on off court stuff, why let the fans vote on it? Like they would know of sportsmanship or stuff like that. Each fan would always be biased on their teams players being "holier than thou" on the court no matter who started what.
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"If I'm playing confidently, there's really, in my eyes... nothing I can't do. So I think if anything, for me, in the game of basketball, it's me versus the game."
- Sue Bird
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mb1
Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 4691
Location: Scottsdale,AZ,USA
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| Posted: 04/29/06 1:56 am ::: |
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Stayed out of this thread 'til today.
Bummer people must choose between LJ and Catch...and why must we degrade one to promote the other?
One of many criteria could be MVP winners, yet I haven't agreed with some of the winners.
Also, IMHO, Stiles was not the ROY the year she rec'd it.
Everyone knows I loathe LL, yet she makes my list (Keegan's rationale was spot on).
Keegan's list and Cam's list are close to whom I suspect I will choose, yet more time is required.
My memory is very short. Penichero and Katie Smith were always two of my favorite players, yet haven't impressed me lately.
Who is this T-Spoon player evryone speaks of? (Here it comes!)  
Gillom brings mixed emotions.
DT...too new????
Slovy wrote:
| Quote: |
eyevolley4 wrote:
| Quote: |
Go get a championship and an MVP and keep the FG% over 40 and then maybe I'll think about jumping on board with you...
Catch's resume is awesome, Jackson's is better. |
From WNBA dot com re: All Decade Team consideration:
"Consideration for the team will be based on ability and on-court performance, leadership, sportsmanship and community service as well as contribution to team success and the growth of women's basketball."
Sorry Lauren.
Tamika is out of your league. |
Gotta love them both...and suspect Slovy gives Catch the edge on sportsmanship and growth of women's basketball; as they both have ability performance and leadership.
Well, while Catch may do more locally, LJ has done much for the game internationally.
If sportsmanship is truly a criteria, then Lisa Leslie is off the list.
She throws malicious elbows and complains against EVERY single call.
Much more later...
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suzy&dee103
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 339
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| Posted: 04/29/06 2:20 am ::: |
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| Quote: |
If sportsmanship is truly a criteria, then Lisa Leslie is off the list.
She throws malicious elbows and complains against EVERY single call.
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I don't think Lisa Leslie is the only player who has done this. I can think of many, in fact the worst is here in Seattle #15. Come sit courtside and watch how bad she is. She makes Lisa look like an angel!
_________________
"If I'm playing confidently, there's really, in my eyes... nothing I can't do. So I think if anything, for me, in the game of basketball, it's me versus the game."
- Sue Bird
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sambista
Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 16951
Location: way station of life
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| Posted: 04/29/06 11:19 am ::: |
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i voted for the first time last night, and i gotta say that when you finally do it - pick just 10 players - it's impossible not to leave out someone most worthy.
the only player i really, REALLY have a problem with being on that list of 30 is tamecka dixon. and there are many more players i think deserve to be considered. (how many players overall, since 1997? i'm sure pilight knows. and would 50 be too many - would that be a problem, if the voting still comes down to just 10?)
it's really, really tough voting. and i'm beginning to agree (who was it - queenie?) that perhaps this list should've had only players who had at least five years' impact on the league. the newer players will have their time. if you waived the five-year rule, the player would have to be amazingly phenomenal. we're talking about a sheryl swoopes coming in just last year or something. who would that be?
anyway, on another note, i just love this photo. too bad it would never have been captured during houston's glory years. i'm pretty sure this was shot at a preseason game against the liberty in the garden, a coupla years ago. i remember sitting right across from them and pointing out to my seatmates that the two of these guys were actually joking with each other. who'da thunk it - two aries women not having a bette davis-joan crawford moment.
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ChiChi
Joined: 11 Dec 2005
Posts: 665
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: 04/29/06 11:30 am ::: |
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| sebibb wrote: |
| i voted for the first time last night, and i gotta say that when you finally do it - pick just 10 players - it's impossible not to leave out someone most worthy. |
I wanted to vote, but when it came down to it, I was in the dark about too many players to do it. I can read their stats and awards but I think you never really know unless you saw them.
| sebibb wrote: |
| the only player i really, REALLY have a problem with being on that list of 30 is tamecka dixon. and there are many more players i think deserve to be considered. |
Who do you think would best replace Dixon?
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jimmyk
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 4028
Location: Bristol. TN
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| Posted: 04/29/06 11:32 am ::: |
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| Yeah, I wanted to vote, too, but I haven't been around long enough. It would end up being my favorites over the past four years, essentially, which wouldn't be right. So I'll defer to the more experienced ones this time.
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sambista
Joined: 25 Sep 2004
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 04/29/06 11:39 am ::: |
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| sebibb wrote: |
i voted for the first time last night, and i gotta say that when you finally do it - pick just 10 players - it's impossible not to leave out someone most worthy.
the only player i really, REALLY have a problem with being on that list of 30 is tamecka dixon. and there are many more players i think deserve to be considered. (how many players overall, since 1997? i'm sure pilight knows. and would 50 be too many - would that be a problem, if the voting still comes down to just 10?)
it's really, really tough voting. and i'm beginning to agree (who was it - queenie?) that perhaps this list should've had only players who had at least five years' impact on the league. the newer players will have their time. if you waived the five-year rule, the player would have to be amazingly phenomenal. we're talking about a sheryl swoopes coming in just last year or something. who would that be?
anyway, on another note, i just love this photo. too bad it would never have been captured during houston's glory years. i'm pretty sure this was shot at a preseason game against the liberty in the garden, a coupla years ago. i remember sitting right across from them and pointing out to my seatmates that the two of these guys were actually joking with each other. who'da thunk it - two aries women not having a bette davis-joan crawford moment.
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I like that shot, too. Two observations from the guy who made his bones on the topic of the Cooper/Swoopes rivalry. One is how completely quashed it is, at this point, as a historical topic of interest or discussion. I think, honestly, that something has been lost in the failure to fully and honestly tell this story. The whole like it never happened atmosphere. The it was all blown out of proportion bullshit. The complete lack of juicy details. True feelings.
Beyond the absence of just an honest telling of what was a fascinating conflict and drama, why it is a more substantial loss, is because (and this is the second observation) of the incredibly succesful resolution of that drama. That these two were able to overcome their personal conflicts and what they were able to achieve because of that. They overcame their interpersonal dramas on the court and were rewarded on the court for that professionalism. Oh yeah. That's all great. But it's over now, they're no longer teamates, and I contend they will have overcome it a little too well if the story never gets told._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 16358
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: 04/29/06 11:43 am ::: |
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| sebibb wrote: |
the only player i really, REALLY have a problem with being on that list of 30 is tamecka dixon. and there are many more players i think deserve to be considered. (how many players overall, since 1997? i'm sure pilight knows. and would 50 be too many - would that be a problem, if the voting still comes down to just 10?)
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I am not sure why people have a problem with Dixon on the list. A very important part of two championship teams. A gold medal at the Olympics. A 10-year veteran.
She is clearly not going to be on the 10-member team, but how has she accomplished less than say Lobo, either Johnson, Taurasi, and a few others?
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eyevolley4
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
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| Posted: 04/29/06 12:07 pm ::: |
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I concur Matty. Lobo is one of the more interesting people to think about here.
While it can be argued that Lobo and DT, for name value alone, have more value to the league over fewer years than Dixon, I think that's an inconsiderate slight to what she has accomplished on the court.
Her first year in, she's a starter, and she puts up strong, strong numbers. Sure she has tailed off some, but she's not the first, and she could likely rebound minus injuries and LA drama. She has very good career numbers, and while many find her unlikable, I think you may see a different player now that she is no longer in LaLa land.
I am a proponent of Dixon being on this list. I can't argue with any of the seven who have been around from day 1.
And finally, if no Dixon, then why Mabika?
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sambista
Joined: 25 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 04/29/06 1:36 pm ::: |
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i've already confessed to an "intangibles" bias, if you will. dixon has been a good player - not great, but certainly better than average. but combining all the things (my own personal variables) that make someone worthy of being remembered for this particular honor, dixon don't make my list, if i can have only 30. then there are some who don't meet even all my variables but who must be acknowledged. like mabika. she was far more likeable earlier in her career. but the girl, by far, has had one of the most amazing games to be displayed in this league. i don't think anyone can deny that. i don't care what she has or has not been named to or what her numbers have been (tho i'm sure they're significant). the girl has moves that have not been copied. lobo gets in largely for intangibles that have nothing to do with game. but when you look back at the first 10 years, you have to acknowledge one of the three players on whom the league's hopes were initially pinned (swoopes and leslie being the other two, right?). and just about every kid and their dollies had a lobo jersey. ultimately, some of the non-performance intangibles will count, because the vote is in the public's hands, not unlike the all stars who were or were not worthy. not really meaning to trash her, but dixon is in a middle ground, imo - not wildly talented, not a key historical figure, not hugely popular, not excelling in any category that i can think of . . . in other words, there are a lot of dixons in the league.
all of this, of course, is a frustration that boils down to the fact that we're not happy with a nominations list of just 30 players. that's a wonderful predicament! for the league, anyway.
on some level, i would have wanted the players who are indelible faces of the wnba but who were unsung workhorses. two come to mind: wendy palmer and murriel page. (page, without whom the mystics would've sucked even more than they did all those years. but her work ethic was unmatched.)
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sgbur22
Joined: 01 Mar 2006
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| Posted: 04/29/06 2:18 pm ::: |
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| did anyone else notice that vicky bulllet was on the top 30 list on ESPN.com instead of Lobo? And vice versa on WNBA.com....
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 04/29/06 2:24 pm ::: |
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10 is hard.
I got to 8 pretty easily. Cooper, Swoopes, Griffith, Jackson, Leslie, Thompson, Holdsclaw, and Weatherspoon.
Then it gets tough.
Do I need a Shock? They're the only championship team not represented. Cash seems like the obvious choice from that team, but she's only played four years and was hurt for most of one of them. Nolan is a possibility too I guess, although dtsnms would have a fit.
If winning championships is the most important thing, can I leave out Arcain and her four rings? What about Dixon, Mabika, and Milton with two each?
How much do numbers count? I have Holdsclaw, should I also include some other players with limited playoff success and slightly less impressive stats like Katie Smith, Tamika Catchings, or Natalie Williams?
What about players with a little more playoff success but even lesser numbers, like Nykesha Sales, Vickie Johnson, or Jen Gillom?
Should old players get more recognition? Five of the first eight played in the first season. Does it matter that Ruthie Bolton was the league's All Time leading scorer for six days in 1997?
What about Lobo? Do her off court contributions outweigh her injury marred on court career?
Should I be thinking about positions? There are only two guards in the first eight. Should I be looking at Penicheiro or Staley or Stinson or PeeWee or even Bird or Taurasi?
Do I need to worry about East/West balance? Six of my first eight played exclusively for west teams, the other two played for both east and west. Someone quintessentially eastern like Hammon or McWilliams-Franklin might serve to equalize the team a bit.
I'm taking Bolton and Smith as the last two.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/29/06 2:31 pm ::: |
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I didn't have much trouble getting to 11: Cooper, Swoopes, Thompson, Leslie, Jackson, Catchings, Sales, Penechiero, Griffith, Weatherspoon, and Williams.
Cutting one more is very tough for me.
As an aside, I wholly acknowledge that personal dislike is keeping Holdsclaw off my list. It's my list and my votes, and I am OK with that.
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suzy&dee103
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
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| Posted: 04/29/06 3:36 pm ::: |
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| Quote: |
| I am not sure why people have a problem with Dixon on the list. A very important part of two championship teams. A gold medal at the Olympics. A 10-year veteran. |
Dixon was a part of the JUNIOR olympic women's team, not the Senior Team that has won all the gold medals. Sure, a gold medal is a gold medal, but it's not the same in a lot of peolples eyes. Taurasi & Bird even stated winning gold 2 years ago was much more of an accomplishment than the ones they won as juniors.
Dixon shouldn't be on the list, period. I would pick Bolton over her any day.
_________________
"If I'm playing confidently, there's really, in my eyes... nothing I can't do. So I think if anything, for me, in the game of basketball, it's me versus the game."
- Sue Bird
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 04/29/06 3:44 pm ::: |
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| Dixon was on the 2002 World Championships Team.
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suzy&dee103
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
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| Posted: 04/29/06 4:39 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Dixon was on the 2002 World Championships Team. |
Like I said before, WC isn't Olympics.
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"If I'm playing confidently, there's really, in my eyes... nothing I can't do. So I think if anything, for me, in the game of basketball, it's me versus the game."
- Sue Bird
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mysticsfan07
Joined: 16 Apr 2005
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| Posted: 04/29/06 4:50 pm ::: |
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My Picks: (no particular order)
Cynthia Cooper
Yolanda Griffith
Lauren Jackson
Lisa Leslie
Ticha Penicheiro
Katie Smith
Andrea Stinson
Sheryl Swoopes
Tina Thompson
Natalie Williams
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 04/29/06 5:34 pm ::: |
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| I'm at a loss as to how someone can justify putting Katie Smith ahead of Chamique Holdsclaw. Claw leads Smith in pretty much every statistical category that doesn't involve shooting threes, including scoring and assists. Claw has played in more than twice as many playoff games as Smith and Claw has actually played for a team that got out of the first round, which Smith has not.
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BCBG25
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 04/29/06 5:45 pm ::: |
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People here don't like Holdsclaw for one reason or another that they can overlook what she's done individually and yet justify selecting someone else for the exact same reasons. Go figure. It can't be basketball-related.
I have a feeling the final list selected by *us* fans, and I use the term loosely, will have a couple of fuck-ups.
Back to the Mavs game.
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eyevolley4
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
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| Posted: 04/29/06 6:04 pm ::: |
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| I'm not a fan of Claw, but she is surely on the list. She's been too consistently good over a long period of time to not be on it.
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suzy&dee103
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
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| Posted: 04/29/06 6:11 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| I'm at a loss as to how someone can justify putting Katie Smith ahead of Chamique Holdsclaw. Claw leads Smith in pretty much every statistical category that doesn't involve shooting threes, including scoring and assists. Claw has played in more than twice as many playoff games as Smith and Claw has actually played for a team that got out of the first round, which Smith has not. |
Smith has more wins, total. Although the 2 play different positions, I'd give Katie the edge over Claw. So what if Claws team made it past the first round of the playoffs? You know how many losses the mystics had with her on that team?
_________________
"If I'm playing confidently, there's really, in my eyes... nothing I can't do. So I think if anything, for me, in the game of basketball, it's me versus the game."
- Sue Bird
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suzy&dee103
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
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| Posted: 04/29/06 6:28 pm ::: |
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Career stats to back up my comments on Katie Smith VS Chamique Holdsclaw.
SMITH-218 GPlayed-41%FG, 37%3pt, 86%FT, 3.2RPG, 2.4APG, 0.9SPG, 0.2BPG, 2.2TOPG, 2.8PFPG, 17.1 PPG, 3,729 career points(3rd all time in wnba history and she was also the fastest to score 3,000 points).
HOLDSCLAW-195 GPlayed, 44%FG, 26%3PT, 70%FT, 8.6RPG, 2.6APG, 1.3SPG, 0.6BPG, 2.9TOPG, 2.4PFPG, 18.1 PPG, 3,521 career points.
_________________
"If I'm playing confidently, there's really, in my eyes... nothing I can't do. So I think if anything, for me, in the game of basketball, it's me versus the game."
- Sue Bird
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