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Admiral_Needa
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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dtsnms
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Admiral_Needa
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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 Posted: 03/10/05 3:39 pm ::: |
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| Admiral_Needa wrote: |
Indeed, some people think one way, some people think another way. 
Apparently those that don't think your way are offensive to you.  That seems to happen a lot... Everybody should be free to express their opinion. I expressed mine and I stand by it.
If you would like to discuss your views on the subject with civility, bring it on. If you want to just spout off insults and profanities to try and rile me up because you think I'm insecure, I'm just going to take the high road  As I said before, I'm immune to all those personal attacks. |
Oh please Admiral! Did you ever once say IMO, like I do all the time? Or did you just state your arguments like they are facts? Then you waffle more than a presidential candidate, threaten me with a picture of a blowhard football player bending over, and tell me you're taking the high road?
Please tell me where I said one person that didn't agree with me was offensive? All I said was you're blowing smoke about Geno without knowing the facts, which unless you were there, is the truth. There's no opinion to agree with there, it's just a fact.
You want an opinion? You've been a moody, fairly miserable poster ever since the trade of Chris Webber and then the Tangela Smith trade made you even more so. In the last week you've fought with Cam, Keegan, and now me. Do you think that maybe you might be part of the problem?
I'll let it go at this point, because as most of your discussions go lately, they just go in circles with you putting  an  emoticon  every  other  word  .
I hope you feel better soon; I've enjoyed most of our regular discussions!
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Admiral_Needa
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/10/05 4:06 pm ::: |
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Uh, Newsflash dtms, people speak differently and have different writing styles.
For example, I know at least Cam and I don't make much use of qualifying statements like 'IMO' or 'All I'm saying' or 'I don't want to offend anybody but' . I certainly don't take any offense to Cam's factual style of stating opinions... "Mendiola can't guard the chair I'm sitting in." For example, lol.
For one, I already know they're opinions. And secondly, it's not a big deal. Apparently it is to you though!  it's something you should get over, IMO, I think, IMHO, etc, lol. And BTW, when I get into arguments with Cam, I find it fun, I enjoy the discussion, and I never take anything personally. Just like when Greg Anthony and Stephen A. Smith get into arguments...
Think about it
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Slovydal
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 12205
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: 03/10/05 4:09 pm ::: |
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| Comments like "get over it" or "over the hill" are the writing style of High School kids.
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Admiral_Needa
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/10/05 4:21 pm ::: |
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| Admiral_Needa wrote: |
Uh, Newsflash dtms, people speak differently and have different writing styles.
For example, I know at least Cam and I don't make much use of qualifying statements like 'IMO' or 'All I'm saying' or 'I don't want to offend anybody but' . I certainly don't take any offense to Cam's factual style of stating opinions... "Mendiola can't guard the chair I'm sitting in." For example, lol.
For one, I already know they're opinions. And secondly, it's not a big deal. Apparently it is to you though! it's something you should get over, IMO, I think, IMHO, etc, lol. And BTW, when I get into arguments with Cam, I find it fun, I enjoy the discussion, and I never take anything personally. Just like when Greg Anthony and Stephen A. Smith get into arguments...
Think about it |
and you don't see a difference between an obvious opinion like "Mendiola can't guard the chair I'm sitting in" and your statement of "who does he think he's fooling?"
You honestly don't see how your statement passes a judgment with it, as opposed to the other statement?
C'mon Admiral, or if that's the case, should I say VeAdmiral.
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Admiral_Needa
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/10/05 5:03 pm ::: |
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| Admiral_Needa wrote: |
| dtsnms wrote: |
and you don't see a difference between an obvious opinion like "Mendiola can't guard the chair I'm sitting in" and your statement of "who does he think he's fooling?"
You honestly don't see how your statement passes a judgment with it, as opposed to the other statement? |
They're the same type of statement. One passes judgement on Mendiola's defensive capabilities, and the other passes judgement on Geno's honesty in reporting the incident. Both fall under the catagory of opinions, and I don't have a problem with either of them.
I have never suggested a regulation of how people voice their opinions. But apparently you are! Again, when Cam makes factually-stated opinions, I don't take offense. Why? Because I'm used to the diversity of speaking/writing styles and I'm used to hearing other people's opinions which are different than mine. |
Don't put words in my mouth! I have never suggested any regulations, and again you are passing judgment, this time on me! Now you know why I was so peeved to begin with.
The difference, oh great writing style scholar, is that Cam's statement is obviously facetious, as any moving human can clearly cover a chair. Your statement is a judgment passed on an unresolved issue, where all the facts are not available at this time, and you are making assumptions that cannot and should not be made.
Oh and believe me, I would pass a regulation for you to get rid of the avatar that offends so many people that is now a year old.
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Admiral_Needa
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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smenko
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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Location: metro detroit
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| Posted: 03/10/05 5:21 pm ::: |
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| Funny thing about the word "facetious" it is the only word in the English language to have the vowels all in order.
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dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/10/05 5:29 pm ::: |
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| Admiral_Needa wrote: |
No, it wasn't a facetious comment. Cam was passing judgement on Mendiola's defense, implying that it is exceptionally poor. Similarly, I was passing judgement on Geno's honesty in reporting the incident. I'm sure that if I relayed that Cam thinks Mendiola is a poor defender that he wouldn't say that I'm "putting words in his mouth". 
If you want to have more English discussions, go ahead. The bottom line is that for me, the technicalities of people's statements or how they choose to voice their opinions aren't a big deal to me. But apparently they are to you! I guess I'm just more tolerant of diversity than you are... BTW, If you're worried about offending people, maybe you shouldn't use so many profanities |
Admiral, your comments are laughable. In the heat of one post I use a few vulgarities that almost everyone here has used at one time, and you compare it to a picture that would not appear in most public places that you have up 24/7.
Then you say I'm trying to "pass regulations" controlling people and then you compare it to a statement about someone's poor defense.
The bottom line is the only known facts are Cappie pointed her finger in his chest and got in Geno's face, and CVS got on her soapbox and said "no one should have to hear that" or the like. Those are facts. What are not facts are what Geno said, who he said it to, and the circumstances. Another fact, at least to CVS who said it herself, is that no player should talk to the other coach.
You have made it very clear on both boards you think he is a lying SOB (and yes, I am putting words in your mouth) with such inane statements about how you didn't like Cappie before but you do now.
I'm tired of this game. You feel free to put up Randy Moss or whatever you feel like, because I'm done with you and going on to celebrate my daughter's birthday.
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Admiral_Needa
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 10479
Location: Tiburon, CA
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| Posted: 03/10/05 5:44 pm ::: |
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| dtsnms wrote: |
Admiral, your comments are laughable. In the heat of one post I use a few vulgarities that almost everyone here has used at one time, and you compare it to a picture that would not appear in most public places that you have up 24/7.
Then you say I'm trying to "pass regulations" controlling people and then you compare it to a statement about someone's poor defense.
The bottom line is the only known facts are Cappie pointed her finger in his chest and got in Geno's face, and CVS got on her soapbox and said "no one should have to hear that" or the like. Those are facts. What are not facts are what Geno said, who he said it to, and the circumstances. Another fact, at least to CVS who said it herself, is that no player should talk to the other coach.
You have made it very clear on both boards you think he is a lying SOB (and yes, I am putting words in your mouth) with such inane statements about how you didn't like Cappie before but you do now.
I'm tired of this game. You feel free to put up Randy Moss or whatever you feel like, because I'm done with you and going on to celebrate my daughter's birthday. |
Yes, I do think Geno was doing some lawyering when commenting on the facts of the incident. That's my opinion and I stated it. People have a right to them. If you want to counter that argument maturely, bring it on. Unfortunately, you preferred to just yell at me and spout insults instead. There's no game, I'm just no pushover. 
You seemed to imply that if I had prefaced my statements with an 'IMO', that you wouldn't respond with vitriol. Sounds like a suggestion for a self-regulation to me...
As for the 'artistic professional photograph' of Lauren, maybe I'm just more progressive than others. Recently, Keegan had a picture of two guys kissing which he took down. Maybe he did it just to make a social statement, but if he kept it, it certainly wouldn't offend me. On the other hand, you seem to be offended rather easily... I guess it all goes back to that diversity tolerance/embracement level issue
Happy Birthday, lol
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Dtfan
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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Admiral_Needa
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Dtfan
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therese_defarge
Joined: 29 Nov 2004
Posts: 104
Location: Paris
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| Posted: 03/10/05 7:59 pm ::: |
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I see a bright and glorious future. I see an interesting thread about Elaine Powell, including discussion of her apology and possible action by FIBA or the WNBA rising from this abyss. I see tumbrils full of people who post about silly American college basketball non-issues rolling into La Place d'Guillotine. I see petty arguments about the Admiral's avatar heading off-topic or to private mail or better still wearing out.
I think I'm hallucinating.
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Tell the wind and fire when to stop but don’t tell Therese
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womens_hoops
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 03/10/05 9:21 pm ::: |
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| therese_defarge wrote: |
I see a bright and glorious future. I see an interesting thread about Elaine Powell, including discussion of her apology and possible action by FIBA or the WNBA rising from this abyss. I see tumbrils full of people who post about silly American college basketball non-issues rolling into La Place d'Guillotine. I see petty arguments about the Admiral's avatar heading off-topic or to private mail or better still wearing out.
I think I'm hallucinating. |
alas, it is only a dream... a beautiful but ephemeral dream...
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inky
Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 03/11/05 1:11 am ::: |
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| Just keep knitting.
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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Location: The Happening
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| Posted: 03/11/05 1:36 am ::: |
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I can't interview Powell, Skerovic, Nolan, or the other contestants and officials. But I have a sense from eyewitness accounts that the game was out of hand, along with a suspicion that Skerovic got in some licks, and the real evidence that Powell clotheslined Skerovic on a layup, Skerovic retaliated with a kick, and Powell responded with furious 2 punches to the face of Skerovic, who was lying on her back.
The Polish Federation suspended Elaine Powell for the season and fined her $3500. The DA in Krakow is considering criminal charges. Elaine may face civil action, forfeiture of passports and future earnings. The toll exacted will be heavy. And it will be wrong.
Elaine's actions, demeanor, and statements are consistent with someone who suffered a psychotic break. In layman's terms, she snapped. She didn't premeditate hitting Jelena. She doesn't remember hitting Jelena. In ten years of playing professional basketball, she has never done anything like this. It is not consistent with any of her prior behaviors.
On the Lotos Gydnia basketball team, Elaine Powell is not an enforcer. She is its recent MVP. The opposition and the oppositions crowd try to get into the head of MVPs. Its part of the game. But no matter what an opponent or crowd do, Elaine Powell is a professional. Would she waste her career beating up the homegrown talent as the visitor on foreign soil in front of thousands in an arena so tense that her teammates will need protection to eat dinner afterwards? That's crazy.
There is little doubt from the tape that Elaine Powell was blinded by rage.
We might be fooled into thinking that punishing Elaine harshly sends a message. But its more for our peace of mind than any real deterrence. The real deterrence lies in the fair officiating of the game. In this sense the game failed both players. When FIBA and the WNBA look at what happened in Poland, this is where the attention should be be.
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therese_defarge
Joined: 29 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 03/11/05 3:18 am ::: |
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| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| Elaine may face civil action, forfeiture of passports and future earnings. The toll exacted will be heavy. And it will be wrong. |
Thank you for your thoughtful post. I’m at the other end of the spectrum. I would give her a lifetime ban from all basketball. Reasons:
1. It doesn’t matter that she hasn’t done it before. The punch she landed could have caused a brain injury, coma or death. I don’t believe she should get a second chance to do that.
2. Any lesser penalty sends the wrong message to all the trainee thugs out there, and I would need a lot of convincing that harsh punishments are not an effective deterrent, at least in some cases.
3. Anger cannot be allowed to be an excuse for violence on that scale. Nor can poor officiating. Poor officiating is nearly as common an occurrence as players think it is and its continuance is one of the few certainties in life.
4. The WNBA’s survival may well depend on it maintaining a squeaky-clean image compared to its male counterpart. I don’t believe it is mere hyperbole to suggest that a single incident of that severity in a WNBA game could kill the still embryonic WNBA.
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sambista
Joined: 25 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/11/05 7:09 am ::: |
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| interesting, 'cause i'm somewhere between blue - "snapped" was the best word i could come up with, too - and therese. there's a reason there's a thing called "by reason of mental defect" or whatever it is they're calling it these days. but i suspect if you talked to people in the criminal law realm, you'd hear horror stories about how that defense has been abused beyond all reason. a harsh, but not career-ending, penalty seems in order, generally for therese's reasons nos. 1, 2 and 4; and yes, however lame, in an attempt to reaffirm our ideal of civility. that said, it's because i disagree with no. 3 that i start leaning back toward blue. to say that anger can't be allowed as an excuse suggests that someone who has snapped has the capacity to pull herself back from the brink. unfortunately, for me, this is all colored by the detroit incident; artest & co. could've claimed that they, too, snapped, and who would be in a position to prove otherwise? in the latter case, you'll remember, we heard more about an upcoming cd release than an outpouring of apology. it's to powell's credit that she's showing what looks to be genuine remorse. she could have done irreversible damage, and it's just possible that the punishment will have some effect on her (she surely knows she needs help now) and the game at large.
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womens_hoops
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 03/11/05 11:01 am ::: |
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It is true that EP merely snapped -- it was a momentary loss of control, not a premeditated act of violence. But that doesn't let her off the hook. Consider homicide.
1. if you kill someone with premeditation, it's murder first.
2. if you kill someone without premeditation -- if you snap -- it's murder two.
3. if you snap in response to an "adequate provocation," it's voluntary manslaughter.
4. if you unreasonably snap in response to a threat, it's involuntary manslaughter. In other words, if you honestly believe that you face an imminent threat of serious danger, but your belief is unreasonable and/or you overreact to the threat, it's involuntary.
5. if you reasonably kill in self-defense (which usually involves a snap decision), it's nothing.
In other words, the fact that something involves a snap decision isn't the end of the story. We punish some snap decisions. (You can say that such punishment serves no deterrent function, but deterrence isn't the only reason we punish people.) Snap decisions are not all the same. They are different depending on the provocation and the threat presented.
I assume that it was a very rough game that the ref let get out of hand, and the EP had some prior provocation. A rough game, however, is not sufficient provocation to punch someone as hard as you can in the face. Nor was the relatively minor kick that Jelena gave to her ankle.
There was no threat at the time of her act. When EP snapped, Jelena was lying on the floor, posing no threat to EP or anyone else.
In fact, Jelena was largely defenseless, sitting/lying on the floor in a completely disadvantaged position. Attacking someone in that situation makes it worse.
We should take the mitigating factors into account. The fact that EP hasn't done something like this before means we should punish her less harshly that a repeat offender. The fact that EP has shown remorse by issuing a sincere, contrite, and unequivocal apology also helps.
But she still deserves some punishment. She responded way out of proportion to the provocation and sucker-punched a defenseless person square in the face, and hard.
Plus, regardless of intent, you are held responsible for the results of her action. "Simple assault" is punished less severely than "assault causing serious bodily injury," even though the two acts might have precisely the same intent. EP caused a serious bodily injury to her opponent.
So there are some aggravating factors and some mitigating factors. Taking all of it into account, what sanction should she face?
A fine and a suspension from the league, to me, seem like a minimum. Paying for Jelena's injury, through a civil suit or something else, also seems fair.
In terms of criminal charges, it's hard to say because I know nothing about Polish law. If it had happened here in a game, she could fairly face a misdemeanor or possibly even a felony assault charge. For a first-time offender, what she did would probably not result in any jail time (nor should it), but it would probably result in probation, required counseling, community service... and something on her record, so that if it ever happened again, she'd be punished more severely.
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