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| How many people world-wide died of COVID-19? |
| Current official estimate: 7 million |
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33% |
[ 3 ] |
| 10-15 million |
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11% |
[ 1 ] |
| 15-20 million |
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22% |
[ 2 ] |
| 20-25 million |
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11% |
[ 1 ] |
| 25-30 million |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| More than 30 million |
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11% |
[ 1 ] |
| LESS than the (7 million) official estimate |
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11% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 9 |
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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 Posted: 01/26/24 4:28 pm ::: COVID Poll 2 - Worldwide Death Toll |
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Estimates vary widely regarding the number of deaths worldwide caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus.
A Google search turns up 6,988,666 as the current official estimate. But estimates that the actual death toll is much higher have also been quite common with some claims reaching as high as 30 million.
So what do people here think is the most likely current death toll from the COVID-19 pandemic? Do you go with the WHO and NIH estimates of around 7 million or do you believe the actual numbers are higher?
Once again, feel free to discuss and I will be moving this poll into the main COVID thread at some point.
Last edited by jammerbirdi on 01/31/24 5:23 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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| Posted: 01/26/24 8:46 pm ::: |
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| The poll feels incomplete without an option for "Less than the official estimate (< 7 million)"
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 01/26/24 9:19 pm ::: |
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Can I add that after the fact?
Wouldn’t let me._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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| Posted: 01/26/24 9:30 pm ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
Can I add that after the fact?
Wouldn’t let me. |
It let me add it to the end
(Putting it at the end is clunky, but I believe that because a vote has already been cast, reshuffling the options would have resulted in the vote staying with the first poll option, so I didn't try to do that)
There are definitely people out there who believe that the official estimates are higher than the true number.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 01/26/24 10:51 pm ::: |
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Than the true number? And what might that be?_________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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Luuuc
#NATC
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| Posted: 01/26/24 11:13 pm ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| Than the true number? And what might that be? |
You'd have to ask the people who think that way (I'm not one of them), but they are out there (and therefore potentially in here) so I just thought that for completeness it's worth having that option on the poll.
Personally I find it hard to even vote in a poll like this because there are people out there who do this stuff for a career, and if they can't put a number on it then what hope do I have?
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 01/28/24 6:39 pm ::: |
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Direct or indirect?
My godmother lived in senior housing, and therefore her entire building was by definition high-risk. She spent most of the pandemic stuck inside her apartment, with limited human contact and barely any ability to go out. How much did that lack of physical activity and mental stimulation ultimately lead to her mental and physical decline, and ultimately her passing, despite her never contracting COVID?
My dad may have had COVID when he died. But he was admitted for septic shock and pneumonia, with a possibility of meningitis (they were in the process of trying to ascertain that when things went horribly wrong). COVID itself might have been a tertiary or quaternary immediate cause, but the lockdowns fucked him up too. (it did not help that he had been housebound due to foot surgery and was scheduled to start rehabbing the week the lockdowns hit) How much of his death do I blame COVID for?
What about people who died of other causes because they couldn't get care due to COVID swamping the healthcare system? Or because they needed something that got tied up in the supply chain shortages? There are probably other examples but I'm tired and I don't want to get too deep into these waters.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 01/29/24 12:43 am ::: |
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I'm mildly (?) curious as to what purpose a poll such as this might serve, at least in the broader context. These numbers - ANY of the options given - are staggering, and most certainly we'll never know anything close to the real number.
Another mitigating factor: I personally KNOW people who had Covid in the calendar year 2019, well before public acknowledgement and lockdown. All the symptoms, etc., and positive tests for antibodies later on. This begs the question, "How many died even before we KNEW what Covid was?"
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 01/29/24 9:46 am ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
Direct or indirect?
My godmother lived in senior housing, and therefore her entire building was by definition high-risk. She spent most of the pandemic stuck inside her apartment, with limited human contact and barely any ability to go out. How much did that lack of physical activity and mental stimulation ultimately lead to her mental and physical decline, and ultimately her passing, despite her never contracting COVID?
My dad may have had COVID when he died. But he was admitted for septic shock and pneumonia, with a possibility of meningitis (they were in the process of trying to ascertain that when things went horribly wrong). COVID itself might have been a tertiary or quaternary immediate cause, but the lockdowns fucked him up too. (it did not help that he had been housebound due to foot surgery and was scheduled to start rehabbing the week the lockdowns hit) How much of his death do I blame COVID for?
What about people who died of other causes because they couldn't get care due to COVID swamping the healthcare system? Or because they needed something that got tied up in the supply chain shortages? There are probably other examples but I'm tired and I don't want to get too deep into these waters. |
First, very sorry to hear all this.
It’s a good question. I would say that, in the other thread, any death or devastating medical outcome that anyone here feels befell a family member as a result of the emergence of COVID-19. My only stickler there is around the outcome itself. Death or devastating medical consequence is what I’m looking for but, you know, people on Rebkell’s who’ve been put through hell by COVID on a family level certainly shouldn’t feel constrained by what I might be looking for in my poll. Feel free.
But this thread question is not about the personal toll but the global death count. And again, your questions actually are relevant (and welcome) here as well and have become a big part of the political debate and discussion around COVID. The death toll, especially the death toll in the US… all of these areas (and so many more) have become political flashpoints. And that’s kind of maybe why I’m feeling people out here in this group.
My feeling on the death toll question asked in this thread is probably somewhat similar to the other question. I would say I’m asking on the number of people who died because they contracted COVID regardless of age or the existence of any other medical conditions. As Luuuc pointed out, there are people out there who think that the WHO/NIH number is high, and there are actually people who believe that NO ONE died of COVID and that the virus itself never even existed. And then there are people who think the number of deaths could be well over 20M.
Personally, I’m in the 10-15M deaths category but when we’re talking about a range of numbers this large it might be fairly impossible to think about sorting out exact causes of death. Here I’m really fishing for what people in this group think an honest historical assessment might be, even if we’re very unlikely to ever see an honest or accurate historical assessment on the number of COVID deaths._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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Location: NJ
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| Posted: 01/29/24 1:29 pm ::: |
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My allergist believes I had COVID in Dec. 2019. I was very sick about two weeks prior to Christmas. Felt like garbage on a Sunday, took a sick day on Monday where I spent most of the day in bed and pumped myself full of vitamins and NyQuil. Sucked it up and went to work on Tuesday, no mask or social distancing. Did the antibody test over the summer and found out I did have COVID at one point.
I have a cousin who's a doctor and she firmly believes everyone has had it by now, but she's convinced some had it but were asymptomatic or refused testing if they were ill.
I lost an Aunt from COVID who was trapped inside a nursing home. Her son wasn't notified right away and they refused to tag her as having passed due to COVID until later. He's still trying to sue the nursing home.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 01/30/24 8:34 am ::: |
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Sorry to hear about your aunt, toad.
So we have two people here in this thread who are putting forth the idea that they or someone they know actually had COVID earlier in 2019 before even the emergence of a novel coronavirus was reported by the Chinese and before any reported cases appeared in China.
Okay, I've heard this kind of talk before. Like from the person snoozing upstairs at this very moment. mrs jammer came home from visiting family in PA with a monster virus in April of 2019. On the way to the airport I stopped and bought these anti-viral masks at a Rite-Aid and we both wore them for the next couple of weeks. This is when we were living in the tiny Greg Louganis apartment on Robbins Drive. I slept on the couch for two weeks and never caught her bug. Even when we were signing the lease for this apartment she was wearing a mask. Had laryngitis and it changed her voice forever because she couldn't shut up. And she absolutely SWEARS it was COVID.
So, as I reported here in the COVID thread, in late January 2020, really before cases were being reported here in the US, we went to a Lakers game. There was a young non-English speaking Chinese couple next to us. He was coughing a lot and wasn't wearing a mask. Nobody was at that time. So 48 hours later I came down with a weird head and respiratory virus. Whatever he had, I got. It was very weird. I never felt anything like it. Not bad, just different. Kind of mild, very wet, I took zinc and after one semi-bad day I quickly began to get better. Was that COVID?
The mentioning of the antibody test. Wow. Like a cold blast from the dark psychological past. I remember how we all wanted that test in 2020 to see if we had had COVID and could count on some natural immunity. And then as we moved into the second year, the whole antibody test thing just went quietly away.
I'm sorry if all this COVID stuff bothers people. I certainly get that. So much of the conversation about this gives me the creepiest real-life creeps I think I've ever had. What really could compare. That's not a question. I tried reading through the COVID thread and had to stop. It's really unsettling reliving where our minds were at at all of these different stages of the pandemic. Chilling would not be an exaggeration._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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| Posted: 01/30/24 9:26 am ::: |
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I haven't voted yet. I've been thinking about how "they" might have arrived at the 7 million number. I feel pretty certain that the number is probably higher than the official estimate. I'm just not sure how much higher to go with it.
Is that only counting people that died with fairly certain COVID symptoms from Jan. of 2020 on? March 2020 on? Did they go back and look at some of the early deaths (2019) and change their minds about what they might have died of? Kind of made a "highly suspect COVID" category. but with no real knowledge of what it was at the time, didn't even know to consider it? Did they go back and look at when deaths started ramping up? Did they just look at when deaths spiked? How many people involved in the process (doctors, patients, family members, etc) mis-reported signs and symptoms, even cause of death, because of political/religious/whatever reasons?
I'd easily go with more that 7 million. I'm just not sure that I'd go with 10 million.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 02/02/24 11:53 pm ::: |
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Johns Hopkins and WHO numbers say 6.9M deaths as of March and August 2023 when they stopped publicly reporting, respectively.
I think the real number is significantly higher. Worldwide, at least thousands probably died before anyone recognized this as a new disease and not just the annual flu. It's probable that neither China nor some third world countries reported cases accurately due to political propaganda and healthcare inadequacies.
My best guess is 15-20M...however my viewpoint is probably skewed by the fact that a good friend died from COVID a couple of weeks ago.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 02/07/24 5:05 pm ::: |
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| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
Johns Hopkins and WHO numbers say 6.9M deaths as of March and August 2023 when they stopped publicly reporting, respectively.
I think the real number is significantly higher. Worldwide, at least thousands probably died before anyone recognized this as a new disease and not just the annual flu. It's probable that neither China nor some third world countries reported cases accurately due to political propaganda and healthcare inadequacies.
My best guess is 15-20M...however my viewpoint is probably skewed by the fact that a good friend died from COVID a couple of weeks ago. |
Skewed, or clarified? I think I said it here a couple years ago. Things become much clearer when you start putting your own into the ground.
Very sorry to hear about your good friend. Still people dying from this shit?
Here is a link to the complete (and long) piece I wrote on what happened to mrs jammer's family which a good bit of it was started here on Rebkell's.
And here is an excerpt.
A week after the boys were sent home from the ER, Bernadette walked into our apartment from work with her cell phone to her ear. She was talking with Mickey, her oldest sister. The pitch of my wife's voice froze me in my seat and on the other end Mickey was speaking so loudly I could hear every word she was saying from across the room.
Jay’s car hadn’t been started in weeks and he’d gotten out of bed, dressed, and gone outside to move it from the street into the driveway. But that was 45 minutes ago and now, Mickey said, he was just sitting there, behind the wheel.
I’d experienced something like this before in my life. What I always remember about that time is that it didn’t really seem like what it was. And if it wasn’t for what I knew was happening back in Pennsylvania at this moment, and the stress in my wife’s voice when she came through the front door, I honestly wouldn’t have been paying much attention to what was being said between these two sisters.
“Tell her to go outside and check on him.” I remember how my words startled my wife. It was as if me simply telling her to tell Mickey to go out and do this most obvious thing had pushed a button that instantly brought her worst fears to the surface. The reality was a most devastating realization of those fears.
Jay had passed away sitting in the driver’s seat of his car. You never forget these moments in your life. The details of a family tragedy will always burn themselves into your memory. For me it was my wife shouting into the phone over and over again, “He’s dead?” clearly begging for it not to be true. And then her wailing._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 02/12/24 12:51 am ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
Things become much clearer when you start putting your own into the ground.
Very sorry to hear about your good friend. Still people dying from this shit?
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I remember your posts about your family and I remain sorry for your losses.
There were 7K COVID-related deaths in the US in January, per the WHO.
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Hawkeye
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 760
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: 02/15/24 8:13 pm ::: |
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I put a lot of stock in the 7 million number. Many reputable sites have that number. Yes, there are those that died technically of other things, but they were expediated by COVID. Remember, people don't actually die of AIDS---they die of AIDS related complications. An AIDS patient will get a cold and die. Same with COVID. It severely degrades the respiratory system. This could lead to people getting other infections COVID doesn't allow their body to fight off and they die from it. Technically it's the other issue they died from, but they died from COVID-related complications, so recorded as a COVID death.
Just crazy how many COVID took off the Earth.
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Hawkeye
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
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Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: 02/15/24 8:14 pm ::: |
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[quote="FrozenLVFan"]
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
Things become much clearer when you start putting your own into the ground.
Very sorry to hear about your good friend. Still people dying from this shit?
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Yes, people are still dying from COVID just like people are still dying from influenza, SARS, bird flu....it's just that it isn't news anymore so the media doesn't report it as it doesn't get them any ratings to continue to do so.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9627
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| Posted: 03/01/24 8:18 pm ::: |
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| Hawkeye wrote: |
Just crazy how many COVID took off the Earth. |
And yet the world never really tried to determine how it occurred.
Fauci and Daszak, who both funded virus manipulation in the Wuhan lab, organized efforts to falsely claim the virus could not have come from a lab manipulation, but came away unscathed for their deceitful efforts to cover their own asses.
And as far as it coming from a market with live wild animals in a city larger than New York City , I don't believe the WHO or the UN ever addressed that practice. Or the manipulation of viruses in labs. I am not aware of a thing having been done globally to prevent another such outbreak.
And beyond the deaths and long COVID, many businesses that depended on walk-in customers were destroyed by the pandemic. Some even made it through the pandemic but had to close after things opened up because their business did not return to pre-pandemic levels.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 03/03/24 1:48 am ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
And yet the world never really tried to determine how it occurred.
Fauci and Daszak, who both funded virus manipulation in the Wuhan lab, organized efforts to falsely claim the virus could not have come from a lab manipulation, but came away unscathed for their deceitful efforts to cover their own asses.
And as far as it coming from a market with live wild animals in a city larger than New York City , I don't believe the WHO or the UN ever addressed that practice. Or the manipulation of viruses in labs. I am not aware of a thing having been done globally to prevent another such outbreak.
And beyond the deaths and long COVID, many businesses that depended on walk-in customers were destroyed by the pandemic. Some even made it through the pandemic but had to close after things opened up because their business did not return to pre-pandemic levels. |
The WHO has been "addressing" the dangers of bushmeat for years, they just have no authority or ability to do anything about the practice. China didn't ban this practice after COVID began and many other countries have no enforceable laws against it. US Customs just confiscated dead monkeys illegally entering the US from the Congo a few weeks ago.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 03/04/24 7:03 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| And as far as it coming from a market with live wild animals in a city larger than New York City , I don't believe the WHO or the UN ever addressed that practice. Or the manipulation of viruses in labs. I am not aware of a thing having been done globally to prevent another such outbreak. |
....which is the general status of 99.999% of the planet's population. We're NOT ABLE TO BE AWARE of what does or does NOT occur in these cases, what's been done or NOT done. Our sources, try as we might, are wretchedly limited.
I can look at some historical facts, though, and draw consolation from the fact that these virulent pandemics DON'T happen more often than every 100 years-ish, in our modern era, it appears. Despite *theories* of unchecked gene mitigation, or wild animal markets, we're not seeing that play out in repeated cycles....yet.
Also from a historical perspective: so much LESS (comparatively zero) was known about viruses and dna, etc., when it happened 100 years ago. Nonetheless, we had similar ravaging outcomes, with no Dr. Fauci to blame back them, etc. Wish as we might, valid explanations are nil.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 04/08/24 8:41 pm ::: |
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| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
And yet the world never really tried to determine how it occurred.
Fauci and Daszak, who both funded virus manipulation in the Wuhan lab, organized efforts to falsely claim the virus could not have come from a lab manipulation, but came away unscathed for their deceitful efforts to cover their own asses.
And as far as it coming from a market with live wild animals in a city larger than New York City , I don't believe the WHO or the UN ever addressed that practice. Or the manipulation of viruses in labs. I am not aware of a thing having been done globally to prevent another such outbreak.
And beyond the deaths and long COVID, many businesses that depended on walk-in customers were destroyed by the pandemic. Some even made it through the pandemic but had to close after things opened up because their business did not return to pre-pandemic levels. |
The WHO has been "addressing" the dangers of bushmeat for years, they just have no authority or ability to do anything about the practice. China didn't ban this practice after COVID began and many other countries have no enforceable laws against it. US Customs just confiscated dead monkeys illegally entering the US from the Congo a few weeks ago. |
There is also virus manipulation in labs to make viruses that are more lethal to humans. I hope the WHO is speaking out against that, unlike the lionized Fauci who said even if gain of function caused a pandemic he still thought it was worth it
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 04/09/24 3:28 am ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| And as far as it coming from a market with live wild animals in a city larger than New York City , I don't believe the WHO or the UN ever addressed that practice. Or the manipulation of viruses in labs. I am not aware of a thing having been done globally to prevent another such outbreak. |
....which is the general status of 99.999% of the planet's population. We're NOT ABLE TO BE AWARE of what does or does NOT occur in these cases, what's been done or NOT done. Our sources, try as we might, are wretchedly limited. |
You think that if world agencies or country agencies were doing something with regard to addressing issues learned from this pandemic we wouldn't have heard about it? For that to be true it would mean they don't want us to know about the mistakes that were made. Otherwise they would want to advertise their efforts to address them. Mistakes such as Fauci types funding a lab in Wuhan China to manipulate viruses to be more harmful to humans by using "humanized mice" to experiment on, and one or more of the lab workers got infected. But it seems like government rules would force them to have to announce that gain-of-function research was now banned in various jurisdictions. That would seem to have to be public information.
| Quote: |
| I can look at some historical facts, though, and draw consolation from the fact that these virulent pandemics DON'T happen more often than every 100 years-ish, in our modern era, it appears. Despite *theories* of unchecked gene mitigation, or wild animal markets, we're not seeing that play out in repeated cycles....yet. |
It appears gain-of-function research is only a little more than a decade old. A pandemic happened less than a decade after it started.
| Quote: |
| Also from a historical perspective: so much LESS (comparatively zero) was known about viruses and dna, etc., when it happened 100 years ago. Nonetheless, we had similar ravaging outcomes, with no Dr. Fauci to blame back them, etc. Wish as we might, valid explanations are nil. |
Prior outbreaks didn't happen near a lab where Fauci was funding virus manipulation. And prior outbreaks didn't have a USA scientist write to Fauci that looking at the data, it had to be lab created, only to have him three days later sign onto a Fauci organized effort to state that the virus had to be of natural origin (now known to be a lie).
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 04/11/24 8:24 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| Prior outbreaks didn't happen near a lab where Fauci was funding virus manipulation. And prior outbreaks didn't have a USA scientist write to Fauci that looking at the data, it had to be lab created, only to have him three days later sign onto a Fauci organized effort to state that the virus had to be of natural origin (now known to be a lie). |
You just cling to that "Fauci The Demon" theory all you like; it seems to work for you. Not EVERY conspiracy theory is totally false. My best guess is that (by far) MOST of them are MOSTLY misinformed. You apparently enjoy getting your knickers twisted over things neither you nor I nor ANYONE here can truly validate - we can only think what various "sources" want us to know.
I remember somewhere around 2018, well before Covid 19, there were articles sharing the history of the 100-year-old pandemic. I specifically asked my very trusted, brilliant doctor about the odds of that ever happening again. He told me that it most certainly COULD, and that it might be even more devastating, given the global interconnectedness.
All I KNOW is that I lived through this pandemic, and among those people I know, this disease demonstrated the most bizarre range of clinical effects I've ever heard of. Oh, and I hope I never see another.
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