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PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020
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 Posted: 04/03/23 8:27 am ::: |
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| ucbart wrote: |
| My favorite part of this was how exciting it was on Thursday that all the officials, for the first time in Final Four history, were all women. So, let's leave the identity politics aside next year and get the best officials. That game was wayyyyy too big for them yesterday. |
I wasn't happy with the officiating in the FF. Having said that, there were eleven officials were chosen by the NCAA WBB Committee to ref the FF: Tiffany Bird, Gina Cross, Tiara Cruse, Maj Forsberg, Lisa Jones, Dee Kantner, Katie Lukanich, Michol Murray, Brenda Pantoja, Pualani Spurlock-Welsh, and Angelica Suffren. Do you know how these 11 and the 3 for the final were selected? Before the championship game would you have said any of the 3 raised red flags for you in terms of their qualifications to call the game? You argue that some male refs would have been on the crew had it not been for identity politics. Who are the male refs in the women's game who are better than those who called the game? There aren't as many male refs in the women's game and the pay disparity is a big piece of that. The quality of officiating would be better if the pay (among other things) were better.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7841
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 04/03/23 11:13 am ::: |
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Dee Kantner always raises a red flag for me. She was halfway, and I mean halfway, decent once upon a time, but she's slipped in recent years. I feel like she's either biased or not paying attention.
And I'm with whoever said that any ref who can't manage a drama queen like Kim on the sidelines (there are others too, and they aren't all women!) should definitely not be reffing the Final Four, or any tournament games. I think the insistence on an all-female crew is as dumb as insisting on all-female coaching staffs. You go for the best there are.
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It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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MsProudSooner
Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Posts: 49
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04/03/23 11:27 am ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
Dee Kantner always raises a red flag for me. She was halfway, and I mean halfway, decent once upon a time, but she's slipped in recent years. I feel like she's either biased or not paying attention.
And I'm with whoever said that any ref who can't manage a drama queen like Kim on the sidelines (there are others too, and they aren't all women!) should definitely not be reffing the Final Four, or any tournament games. I think the insistence on an all-female crew is as dumb as insisting on all-female coaching staffs. You go for the best there are. |
I always thought Kantner did a good job but she has been doing this for a long time.
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Stonington_QB
Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 756
Location: Siege Perilous
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| Posted: 04/03/23 12:44 pm ::: |
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| blaase22 wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
Comments from another board I’m on:
“Omg I think the women’s finals are being officiated by Sun Belt or CAA refs.”
“Today’s refereeing is an absolute travesty. Whoever signed off on these clowns should be fired 8:00 am tomorrow.” |
Kim had the refs in her back pocket all tournament. |
That's one way of crying about how your team lost I guess
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Stonington_QB
Joined: 05 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 04/03/23 12:47 pm ::: |
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| These refs weren't NEARLY as bad as the old BE refs when ND was there. Not even close. If anything we're moving in the right direction overall, with the occasional fuck ups.
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MsProudSooner
Joined: 15 Apr 2015
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| Posted: 04/03/23 1:28 pm ::: |
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| Stonington_QB wrote: |
| These refs weren't NEARLY as bad as the old BE refs when ND was there. Not even close. If anything we're moving in the right direction overall, with the occasional fuck ups. |
I think that's what made yesterday so frustrating. Overall, the officiating is much better than it was 20 years ago.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7841
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 04/03/23 2:19 pm ::: |
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| MsProudSooner wrote: |
| Stonington_QB wrote: |
| These refs weren't NEARLY as bad as the old BE refs when ND was there. Not even close. If anything we're moving in the right direction overall, with the occasional fuck ups. |
I think that's what made yesterday so frustrating. Overall, the officiating is much better than it was 20 years ago. |
You obviously don't deal with Sun Belt or CAA refs!
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 04/03/23 5:22 pm ::: |
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There appeared to be disagreement among the three officials about how to call the game. I saw several "make up calls", far too many for a game like this.
I also wonder if the game officials were "briefed" prior to the game by someone from the NCAA?
This is the only time of the year when the NCAA has any control over the refs and they screwed it up by inserting politics. In any case I doubt any of the P-5 would be willing to give up their own control of what constitutes too much physicality.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 04/03/23 7:30 pm ::: |
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| Quote: |
Referee Lisa Jones explained the technical foul call to a pool reporter after the game.
"Iowa received a delay of game warning in the third period at the 7:28 mark for batting the ball away after a made basket, causing a delay," Jones said. "The second offense was when No. 22 from Iowa [Clark] picked up the ball and failed to immediately pass the ball to the nearest official after the whistle was blown ... by failing to and it reads, attempting to gain an advantage by interfering with the ball after a goal or by failing to immediately pass the ball to the nearest official after the whistle is blown."
Clark offered her impressions on the officiating.
"I thought they called it very, very tight," Clark said. "I don't know about the two push-offs in the second quarter. I'm sure they saw that I pushed off, and they called it and whatnot, and then hit with the technical foul in the third for throwing the ball under the basket. |
https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/36048996/iowa-lisa-bluder-calls-officials-approach-frustrating-loss
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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| Posted: 04/03/23 8:03 pm ::: |
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| MsProudSooner wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
Dee Kantner always raises a red flag for me. She was halfway, and I mean halfway, decent once upon a time, but she's slipped in recent years. I feel like she's either biased or not paying attention.
And I'm with whoever said that any ref who can't manage a drama queen like Kim on the sidelines (there are others too, and they aren't all women!) should definitely not be reffing the Final Four, or any tournament games. I think the insistence on an all-female crew is as dumb as insisting on all-female coaching staffs. You go for the best there are. |
I always thought Kantner did a good job but she has been doing this for a long time. |
Dee doesn't drive me crazy like some of them do. I usually feel OK when I see her come in the arena.
_________________
"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 04/03/23 8:57 pm ::: |
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| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| Quote: |
Referee Lisa Jones explained the technical foul call to a pool reporter after the game.
"Iowa received a delay of game warning in the third period at the 7:28 mark for batting the ball away after a made basket, causing a delay," Jones said. "The second offense was when No. 22 from Iowa [Clark] picked up the ball and failed to immediately pass the ball to the nearest official after the whistle was blown ... by failing to and it reads, attempting to gain an advantage by interfering with the ball after a goal or by failing to immediately pass the ball to the nearest official after the whistle is blown."
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As I said in the game thread, that's totally bogus. She's just trying a CYA maneuver. It happens many many times in a game that a player doesn't "pass the ball to the nearest official" but simply puts the ball down or bounces it toward the endline. They NEVER call a technical on that during a dead ball, and especially not when it doesn't actually delay the other team from getting possession. If it were after a made basket and the other team were trying to get the ball in order to run down the floor, ok, it would be called. But in this case it was a bogus call that 99.9% of the time would not be called. For it to be called in the championship game was a travesty.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 04/03/23 11:35 pm ::: |
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The rule that caused Clark to get a technical, Rule 10(3)(k), is not directly based on delay of game.
The relevance of delay was that Iowa had been previously warned about delaying the game by batting the ball away after a made basket. Once a team has a previous warning, Rule 10(3)(k) comes into play and requires a technical foul when: "After a team warning has been issued, attempting to gain an advantage by interfering with the ball after a goal or by failing to immediately pass the ball to the nearest official after the whistle has blown."
Clark knew her team had been warned and deliberately tossed the ball off the court and not to the nearest official as the rule requires.
Maybe Clark didn't know the rule. Maybe most of us didn't. But the ref did. Correct call. |
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 04/04/23 12:15 am ::: |
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| If that call were Bueckers 4th foul, after Edwards just got her 4th, I suspect you wouldn't be thinking the same way. UConn nation would be up in arms. You can read the letter of the law so to speak, and make excuses, but that slight flip of the ball toward the endline was simply not worthy of that call. If she had banged the ball down or thrown it with force, ok, but she did what many players do and sent it to the endline. And certainly not worthy of that call in that game when they were making and missing all the other calls they made/didn't make. It was bizarre. Mulkey grabbing a ref to complain was the egregious one. It's not like the ref could not notice being grabbed. And not like the ref didn't know that being grabbed was worthy of a tech. If you can ignore that you certainly can ignore a flip of the ball during a deadball situation. Technically, if she had placed the ball on the floor, that would be a tech too. Have you ever seen a player receive a tech for placing the ball on the floor at her feet? Nope. Me neither.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 04/04/23 2:17 am ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
| If that call were Bueckers 4th foul, after Edwards just got her 4th, I suspect you wouldn't be thinking the same way. UConn nation would be up in arms. You can read the letter of the law so to speak, and make excuses, but that slight flip of the ball toward the endline was simply not worthy of that call. If she had banged the ball down or thrown it with force, ok, but she did what many players do and sent it to the endline. And certainly not worthy of that call in that game when they were making and missing all the other calls they made/didn't make. It was bizarre. Mulkey grabbing a ref to complain was the egregious one. It's not like the ref could not notice being grabbed. And not like the ref didn't know that being grabbed was worthy of a tech. If you can ignore that you certainly can ignore a flip of the ball during a deadball situation. Technically, if she had placed the ball on the floor, that would be a tech too. Have you ever seen a player receive a tech for placing the ball on the floor at her feet? Nope. Me neither. |
Rule 10(3)(k), like all rules, is the same for all players and teams.
That rule is not based on banging or force.
It is based on deliberately defying a ref's previous warning that a technical foul is imminent. If there was no previous warning or no whistle had been blown, placing the ball down on the floor would not be a tech (but it might get a warning).
However, if team had just gotten a warning about delay of game, and then there is a blown whistle for something else, and then a player on warned team places the ball on the floor instead of "immediately pass[ing] the ball to the nearest official", then, yes, there should be a technical called to punish the defiance of the previous warning.
This seems so easy an application of a clear rule, and should be uncontroversial.
And the rule doesn't apply or not apply just because the refs may have missed some other call during the game. That's completely illogical. |
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 04/04/23 11:32 am ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
| If that call were Bueckers 4th foul, after Edwards just got her 4th, I suspect you wouldn't be thinking the same way. UConn nation would be up in arms. You can read the letter of the law so to speak, and make excuses, but that slight flip of the ball toward the endline was simply not worthy of that call. If she had banged the ball down or thrown it with force, ok, but she did what many players do and sent it to the endline. And certainly not worthy of that call in that game when they were making and missing all the other calls they made/didn't make. It was bizarre. Mulkey grabbing a ref to complain was the egregious one. It's not like the ref could not notice being grabbed. And not like the ref didn't know that being grabbed was worthy of a tech. If you can ignore that you certainly can ignore a flip of the ball during a deadball situation. Technically, if she had placed the ball on the floor, that would be a tech too. Have you ever seen a player receive a tech for placing the ball on the floor at her feet? Nope. Me neither. |
Rule 10(3)(k), like all rules, is the same for all players and teams.
That rule is not based on banging or force.
It is based on deliberately defying a ref's previous warning that a technical foul is imminent. If there was no previous warning or no whistle had been blown, placing the ball down on the floor would not be a tech (but it might get a warning).
However, if team had just gotten a warning about delay of game, and then there is a blown whistle for something else, and then a player on warned team places the ball on the floor instead of "immediately pass[ing] the ball to the nearest official", then, yes, there should be a technical called to punish the defiance of the previous warning.
This seems so easy an application of a clear rule, and should be uncontroversial.
And the rule doesn't apply or not apply just because the refs may have missed some other call during the game. That's completely illogical. |
and as I've said before, the refs have immense latitude in applying the rules. In all the basketball games I've watched or reffed, I've never seen such a frivolous application. That, of all the bad calls in the game, stands out as simply the worst. As my friend who hasn't watched much of the women's game said, "if this happened in a men's final, there would be a national rebellion"
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snzuluz
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
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| Posted: 04/04/23 12:16 pm ::: |
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First, LSU played better and won that game. Iowa's lack of defense (for the past 3-4 years to be honest) and lack of rebounding along with a
lack of bench strength cost them that game...that being said...
Clark not handing the ball to the official did not delay LSU getting the ball in bounds as the official stated as to why she issued a T. Once the foul was call the ball is DEAD! To make that call in the national championship game says it all about the complete lack of quality of these three officials.
In both the men's and women's tournaments to include LSU, players constantly after their team scored touched the ball, impeding the other team from inbounding the ball after a made basket.
Iowa was in a dead ball situation when the T was called.
Secondly, if you want to T Iowa up then T Mulkey up for being out on the court MULTIPLE times and Reese beginning her antics with 12.1 in the game...it's one thing to do it after the clock runs out but to do it when the game is still going on (it does not matter that teams quit playing before the clock ran out - such a sad display for the past many years from most teams in all of college basketball) she was doing it MULTIPLE times and moving TOWARDS Clark.
Clark has done similar things but she has NOT followed a player trying to get in her face/line of sight multiple times in the same play.
Taurasi at UConn is the closest player to Clark in skill and showmanship but even she never walked towards a player in multiple attempts to get a reaction out of them.
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snzuluz
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
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| Posted: 04/04/23 12:17 pm ::: |
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| Sorry for the duplication.
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greg5222
Joined: 03 May 2006
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| Posted: 04/04/23 2:11 pm ::: |
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| That was a beautiful behind the back pass to no one!!!
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 04/04/23 9:18 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
when After a team warning has been issued, attempting to gain an advantage by interfering with the ball after a goal or by failing to immediately pass the ball to the nearest official after the whistle has blown."
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From what I understand Glenn, it was a dead ball play and Iowa gained no advantage.
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MsProudSooner
Joined: 15 Apr 2015
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| Posted: 04/05/23 11:21 am ::: |
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| Speaking of officials having discretion on applying rules, 3 seconds in the lane was called in the men's game Monday night. One of the announcers said it was the first time he had seen it called all year.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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TechDawgMc
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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| Posted: 04/05/23 8:49 pm ::: |
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Remember that there were only two refs at the time. Think about all of the fouls that they missed!!
Art Bomengen (semifinal)
Douglas Cloud (semifinal)
Dee Kantner (semifinal)
Bob Trammell (semifinal)
Patty Broderick (final)
Bill Stokes (final)
I remember all of them except Douglas Cloud. Still haven't found who did this game.
_________________
"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 04/05/23 10:10 pm ::: |
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| Bomengen and Kantner did this game
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MsProudSooner
Joined: 15 Apr 2015
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| Posted: 04/06/23 9:57 am ::: |
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| MsProudSooner wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
Dee Kantner always raises a red flag for me. She was halfway, and I mean halfway, decent once upon a time, but she's slipped in recent years. I feel like she's either biased or not paying attention.
And I'm with whoever said that any ref who can't manage a drama queen like Kim on the sidelines (there are others too, and they aren't all women!) should definitely not be reffing the Final Four, or any tournament games. I think the insistence on an all-female crew is as dumb as insisting on all-female coaching staffs. You go for the best there are. |
I always thought Kantner did a good job but she has been doing this for a long time. |
According to Google, Kantner is 62 years old.
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