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linkster



Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 03/16/23 9:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
linkster wrote:
How NDame acted isn't the issue here, it's how the committee acted. In her 90 second "interview" the chair said they had to assume that Miles was available since the team was silent. The fact is that Miles was "out/ injured" in the ACC tournament and so her default status should have been "out, injured" and the onus should have been on NDame to change that.

Hell, if Geno hadn't publicly said that Bueckers was out for the season would the committee assume she was available and seed UConn accordingly? No, that's ridiculous. But isn't that what they did here?


So by your "logic" every team should have to provide a sworn affidavit with supporting medical documentation to the committee for every one of their players to "prove" that they are healthy and available to play in the tournament.

To my knowledge, there is no requirement for ND or any other team to provide any injury report. This isn't the NFL. And why should a player who misses TWO GAMES be assumed to be out for the season and unable to return after a two week layoff?

I don't know why anyone questions that the decision regarding Miles's status hadn't been made until the last couple of days. If the injury was nearly as bad as some people seem to fantasize, she would have had surgery ten days ago. But it's pretty obvious that Miles wanted to see if she could still go, it turned out she couldn't, they just made the decision this week, and they scheduled her for surgery next week.


That's it Art, draw extreme conclusions from what I wrote and then accuse me of saying them.

All I said was that if a player is out injured going into the tournament the committee should need to be told if that is changing. A phone call is all I'm talking about. But it should be on the team to change the status quo.
Not all teams would act homorably because in sports today winning is everything.

The whole world knew Miles was out with a knee injury. We all watched it happen. That was the status quo when the committee sat down, not some assumption that she was healthy.

But then Indianapolis is "home turf" for the Irish, isn't it? Rolling Eyes


readyAIMfire53



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PostPosted: 03/17/23 12:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ex-Ref wrote:
If ND was trying to be deceitful and hide the injury, they wouldn't have said anything today. They would have continued to say she was day-to-day, and make their opponents waste some practice time planning for the possibility of Miles playing.


This is a joke, right? Because you really can't be seriously saying this.

Everybody in the world knew Miles would not be playing (except the committee did not get an official injury report).

ND still has the personnel that should win a game or two. We'll see what happens. ND is a 4/5 without Miles, meaning they should have a 50/50 chance of getting to the Sweet Sixteen.

Basically, the people who aren't "getting" that ND did the tournament wrong are ND fans.



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 03/17/23 1:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
If the injury was nearly as bad as some people seem to fantasize, she would have had surgery ten days ago. But it's pretty obvious that Miles wanted to see if she could still go, it turned out she couldn't, they just made the decision this week, and they scheduled her for surgery next week.


Imaging, which presumably was done the day after Miles was injured, would immediately have told doctors whether it was a torn ACL, meniscus or whatever. As to the timing of ACL surgery, according the the Hospital for Special Surgery:

"For a complete tear of the ACL, reconstruction surgery is generally scheduled for between three and six weeks after the injury occurs. This allows inflammation in the area to subside. If surgery is performed too early, patients may develop a profound scarring response called arthrofibrosis."

https://www.hss.edu/condition-list_acl-surgery.asp#timing

Personally, I don't care where Notre Dame or any other team is seeded, and never have. However, I'm of the opinion that misleading the SelComm about injury status can be unfair to those teams and fans who do care about seeding.

I'm not sure yet whether Notre Dame misled the committee about Miles. If it turns out that Miles is having ACL surgery, then I think that that evidence and logical inference point to a conclusion that Notre Dame intentionally remained silent about a known season-ending injury to Miles. If it turns out that the surgery is for something like a torn meniscus or other cartilage, I would be more sympathetic to the veracity of the "Miles is day-to-day" report.


Last edited by GlennMacGrady on 03/17/23 1:57 am; edited 1 time in total
NYSports56



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PostPosted: 03/17/23 1:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Are seeds supposed to represent what you've accomplished in the past season, or how well you're expected to play in the tournament? Not being snarky here; I genuinely don't know the answer.


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: 03/17/23 2:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
If the injury was nearly as bad as some people seem to fantasize, she would have had surgery ten days ago. But it's pretty obvious that Miles wanted to see if she could still go, it turned out she couldn't, they just made the decision this week, and they scheduled her for surgery next week.


Imaging, which presumably was done the day after Miles was injured, would immediately have told doctors whether it was a torn ACL, meniscus or whatever. According the the Hospital for Special Surgery:

"For a complete tear of the ACL, reconstruction surgery is generally scheduled for between three and six weeks after the injury occurs. This allows inflammation in the area to subside. If surgery is performed too early, patients may develop a profound scarring response called arthrofibrosis."

https://www.hss.edu/condition-list_acl-surgery.asp#timing

Personally, I don't care where Notre Dame or any other team is seeded, and never have. However, I'm of the opinion that misleading the SelComm about injury status can be unfair to those teams and fans who do care about seeding. I'm not sure whether Notre Dame misled the committee about Miles.


Of course neither you nor Linkster nor the QAnon Duke troll have the slightest inkling of any facts regarding the injury, tests, medical advice, Miles's own wishes and those of her parents, what she has been doing and attempting to do since the injury, or what if any communications occurred between the selection committee and Notre Dame. But that hasn't stopped any of you from throwing around fanciful theories and accusations.

What is the point of quoting some completely out of context summary article when you have no idea if that is the condition? Complete tears are not the common injury and Miles wouldn't even be mentioning a summer return if that's what she had. Why don't you all just stop making up shit that happens to fit your trolling fantasy but has no factual predicate whatsoever. Or maybe you can all diagnose orthopedic injuries based on seeing a player fall on TV. He'll, just give you all the Nobel Prize for Medicine and scrap the MRIs!


CBiebel



Joined: 23 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: 03/17/23 7:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
If the injury was nearly as bad as some people seem to fantasize, she would have had surgery ten days ago. But it's pretty obvious that Miles wanted to see if she could still go, it turned out she couldn't, they just made the decision this week, and they scheduled her for surgery next week.


Imaging, which presumably was done the day after Miles was injured, would immediately have told doctors whether it was a torn ACL, meniscus or whatever. As to the timing of ACL surgery, according the the Hospital for Special Surgery:

"For a complete tear of the ACL, reconstruction surgery is generally scheduled for between three and six weeks after the injury occurs. This allows inflammation in the area to subside. If surgery is performed too early, patients may develop a profound scarring response called arthrofibrosis."

https://www.hss.edu/condition-list_acl-surgery.asp#timing

Personally, I don't care where Notre Dame or any other team is seeded, and never have. However, I'm of the opinion that misleading the SelComm about injury status can be unfair to those teams and fans who do care about seeding.

I'm not sure yet whether Notre Dame misled the committee about Miles. If it turns out that Miles is having ACL surgery, then I think that that evidence and logical inference point to a conclusion that Notre Dame intentionally remained silent about a known season-ending injury to Miles. If it turns out that the surgery is for something like a torn meniscus or other cartilage, I would be more sympathetic to the veracity of the "Miles is day-to-day" report.


Obviously we don't have much information to go on, other than that she had injured her knee. However, even after the current announcement, Ivey is still suggesting that Miles could come back for summer workouts. Note: not next season, but actually summer workouts.

Even if you are going with the "They were deceiving the committee for a better seed" idea, there is no real reason for Ivey to suggest such a relatively quick comeback if it was a torn ACL, which suggests that it might not be a major injury (although, IMO (not that I'm an expert in knee injuries) even some of the minor knee injuries would often take more rehab than would be available for her before the NCAAs).


goforit77



Joined: 09 Jan 2015
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PostPosted: 03/17/23 8:19 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
I think I it was pretty classless to play coy on the injury until after the seeds and brackets were set. That said, I wish Olivia all the best on her surgery and rehab.

To answer ucbart’s question, I think Citron is it and after her it’s PG any committee. Art can correct me if I’m wrong.


The only thing here that's "pretty classless" is for some clown on the internet who doesn't know a damn thing about the nature or extent of the injury, the results of the MRIs, the diagnoses of the orthopedists, the efforts that were made by the player, the trainers, the doctors and the physical therapists over the past two weeks to see if she could contribute during the tournament, or when the decision was made by the player, her parents, the doctors and the team to end her season, to keep droning on with snide, ignorant, trolling fantasies about how things transpired.

There, I corrected you because you're wrong.



Anybody who saw Olivia Miles "walking" at the ACC tournament knew immediately she was not coming back. She was nowhere even close to stepping on the court much less running any time soon.

Good Luck to her on her recovery

ND gamed the system but I doubt they are the only team that did so


RavenDog



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PostPosted: 03/17/23 9:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I agree, it was unethical to withhold this information on Olivia, not only from the Committee but also withholding it from the basketball community, fans from all over the nation and especially from their own Notre Dame fans who have previously purchased very expensive tickets to the Sweet Sixteen, purchased airfare, hotel accommodations and rental cars.

Yes, I too, like many others, had my hopes up that Olivia was free of serious injury and was looking very much forward and planning to watch her play.


GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 03/17/23 10:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

[quote="ArtBest23"]
GlennMacGrady wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
If the injury was nearly as bad as some people seem to fantasize, she would have had surgery ten days ago. But it's pretty obvious that Miles wanted to see if she could still go, it turned out she couldn't, they just made the decision this week, and they scheduled her for surgery next week.


Imaging, which presumably was done the day after Miles was injured, would immediately have told doctors whether it was a torn ACL, meniscus or whatever. According the the Hospital for Special Surgery:

"For a complete tear of the ACL, reconstruction surgery is generally scheduled for between three and six weeks after the injury occurs. This allows inflammation in the area to subside. If surgery is performed too early, patients may develop a profound scarring response called arthrofibrosis."

https://www.hss.edu/condition-list_acl-surgery.asp#timing

Personally, I don't care where Notre Dame or any other team is seeded, and never have. However, I'm of the opinion that misleading the SelComm about injury status can be unfair to those teams and fans who do care about seeding. I'm not sure whether Notre Dame misled the committee about Miles.


ArtBest23 wrote:
Of course neither . . . have the slightest inkling of any facts regarding . . . what if any communications occurred between the selection committee and Notre Dame.


We heard what the head of the SelComm said about what ND told them about Miles' injury, which was essentially nothing definitive. Maybe someone remembers her exact quote.


ArtBest23 wrote:
What is the point of quoting some completely out of context summary article when you have no idea if that is the condition?


The obvious point was to contradict your erroneous assertion that the surgery would have been "ten days ago" if Miles' injury was "bad". Not true: If bad means ACL tear, then her surgery would be scheduled exactly as it is being scheduled, three or four weeks after injury.

ArtBest23 wrote:
Miles wouldn't even be mentioning a summer return if that's what she had.


I don't believe Miles said this. Notre Dame via Ivey said after the seeding, "The current timetable for her return is that we hope that she will be back for the summer in order to participate for the workouts," but reportedly declined to state the actual knee diagnosis to protect Miles' "privacy." (Is that really what they are protecting?) Summer ends on September 23, 2023, six months from now, which happens to be the minimal recovery time for an ACL reconstruction according the the HSS.

As I said, I will not make any judgment about Notre Dame's intent to mislead until after the exact nature of the injury is made public.
ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: 03/17/23 1:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:

I don't believe Miles said this. Notre Dame via Ivey said after the seeding, "The current timetable for her return is that we hope that she will be back for the summer in order to participate for the workouts," but reportedly declined to state the actual knee diagnosis to protect Miles' "privacy." (Is that really what they are protecting?) Summer ends on September 23, 2023, six months from now, which happens to be the minimal recovery time for an ACL reconstruction according the the HSS.


What a fraud you are. You always pretend to be "above the fray," but troll with the best of them. Your own article says 6-9 months if we consider your uninformed, imagined injury type. School starts in August so workouts are over before your own time lines permit and all your contortions can't change that. And you have demonstrated the willingness to "believe" anything that you choose to imagine so your "belief" hardly concerns me. Sorry I said Miles rather than Ivey made the summer workout comment, as if that matters in the least. At least someone with some knowledge said it instead of the conspiracy theorists populating this thread.

I'm done discussing this with a bunch of trolls who know zero facts, care even less aboutwhat the facts or truth are, and just make up whatever fiction conveniently fits their trolling.


readyAIMfire53



Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7355
Location: Durham, NC


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PostPosted: 03/17/23 2:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:

I don't believe Miles said this. Notre Dame via Ivey said after the seeding, "The current timetable for her return is that we hope that she will be back for the summer in order to participate for the workouts," but reportedly declined to state the actual knee diagnosis to protect Miles' "privacy." (Is that really what they are protecting?) Summer ends on September 23, 2023, six months from now, which happens to be the minimal recovery time for an ACL reconstruction according the the HSS.


What a fraud you are. You always pretend to be "above the fray," but troll with the best of them. Your own article says 6-9 months if we consider your uninformed, imagined injury type. School starts in August so workouts are over before your own time lines permit and all your contortions can't change that. And you have demonstrated the willingness to "believe" anything that you choose to imagine so your "belief" hardly concerns me. Sorry I said Miles rather than Ivey made the summer workout comment, as if that matters in the least. At least someone with some knowledge said it instead of the conspiracy theorists populating this thread.

I'm done discussing this with a bunch of trolls who know zero facts, care even less aboutwhat the facts or truth are, and just make up whatever fiction conveniently fits their trolling.


Any day you choose to close your yap is a good day.

We have three ND fans defending the indefensible and everyone else pointing out exactly what ND did and why it was wrong to so many people - including any ND fans foolish enough to not believe their own eyes and bought tickets to the Sweet Sixteen (where they'll be massacred if they make it). Of course, because of their favorable seeding, ND does have a pretty easy path.



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summertime blues



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PostPosted: 03/17/23 10:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Well, I was trying to be nice about the PG question, but of course Art has his hackles up and won’t let me. It looks like it is Cintron and then after her it’s committee of three.

Anyone remotely familiar with orthopedic medicine (I am, although it’s not my specialty) pretty much knows an ACL when they see it happen, much as they wish it weren’t what they were looking at. The confirmation by MRI is a formality. Once you’ve seen enough of them, you just wince really hard when you see a player go down with what you are pretty sure is one. You just know. It’s a bad, sick feeling.



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CBiebel



Joined: 23 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: 03/17/23 11:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

readyAIMfire53 wrote:


We have three ND fans defending the indefensible and everyone else pointing out exactly what ND did and why it was wrong to so many people - including any ND fans foolish enough to not believe their own eyes and bought tickets to the Sweet Sixteen (where they'll be massacred if they make it). Of course, because of their favorable seeding, ND does have a pretty easy path.


You are aware that Miles isn't the only player with talent on the ND team, right?


linkster



Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 03/17/23 11:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CBiebel wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
If the injury was nearly as bad as some people seem to fantasize, she would have had surgery ten days ago. But it's pretty obvious that Miles wanted to see if she could still go, it turned out she couldn't, they just made the decision this week, and they scheduled her for surgery next week.


Imaging, which presumably was done the day after Miles was injured, would immediately have told doctors whether it was a torn ACL, meniscus or whatever. As to the timing of ACL surgery, according the the Hospital for Special Surgery:

"For a complete tear of the ACL, reconstruction surgery is generally scheduled for between three and six weeks after the injury occurs. This allows inflammation in the area to subside. If surgery is performed too early, patients may develop a profound scarring response called arthrofibrosis."

https://www.hss.edu/condition-list_acl-surgery.asp#timing

Personally, I don't care where Notre Dame or any other team is seeded, and never have. However, I'm of the opinion that misleading the SelComm about injury status can be unfair to those teams and fans who do care about seeding.

I'm not sure yet whether Notre Dame misled the committee about Miles. If it turns out that Miles is having ACL surgery, then I think that that evidence and logical inference point to a conclusion that Notre Dame intentionally remained silent about a known season-ending injury to Miles. If it turns out that the surgery is for something like a torn meniscus or other cartilage, I would be more sympathetic to the veracity of the "Miles is day-to-day" report.


Obviously we don't have much information to go on, other than that she had injured her knee. However, even after the current announcement, Ivey is still suggesting that Miles could come back for summer workouts. Note: not next season, but actually summer workouts.

Even if you are going with the "They were deceiving the committee for a better seed" idea, there is no real reason for Ivey to suggest such a relatively quick comeback if it was a torn ACL, which suggests that it might not be a major injury (although, IMO (not that I'm an expert in knee injuries) even some of the minor knee injuries would often take more rehab than would be available for her before the NCAAs).


I witnessed the chair say that without any information from NDame they went with the assumption she would play. That's my issue. The committee as well as the entire country knew that Miles was out in the ACC tournament. She had injured her knee and had not played since. And yet the committee pretended not to know that.

If a player is not playing then the committee should seed the team as if the player would continue to be out, UNLESS the team tells the NCAA that they expect the player to be back. No proof, just a statement of her status. And if they do then the committee can decide.

Subterfuge is part of competitive sport and coaches use it all the time. Ivy did nothing wrong. The committee did.


readyAIMfire53



Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7355
Location: Durham, NC


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PostPosted: 03/18/23 12:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

linkster wrote:
CBiebel wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
If the injury was nearly as bad as some people seem to fantasize, she would have had surgery ten days ago. But it's pretty obvious that Miles wanted to see if she could still go, it turned out she couldn't, they just made the decision this week, and they scheduled her for surgery next week.


Imaging, which presumably was done the day after Miles was injured, would immediately have told doctors whether it was a torn ACL, meniscus or whatever. As to the timing of ACL surgery, according the the Hospital for Special Surgery:

"For a complete tear of the ACL, reconstruction surgery is generally scheduled for between three and six weeks after the injury occurs. This allows inflammation in the area to subside. If surgery is performed too early, patients may develop a profound scarring response called arthrofibrosis."

https://www.hss.edu/condition-list_acl-surgery.asp#timing

Personally, I don't care where Notre Dame or any other team is seeded, and never have. However, I'm of the opinion that misleading the SelComm about injury status can be unfair to those teams and fans who do care about seeding.

I'm not sure yet whether Notre Dame misled the committee about Miles. If it turns out that Miles is having ACL surgery, then I think that that evidence and logical inference point to a conclusion that Notre Dame intentionally remained silent about a known season-ending injury to Miles. If it turns out that the surgery is for something like a torn meniscus or other cartilage, I would be more sympathetic to the veracity of the "Miles is day-to-day" report.


Obviously we don't have much information to go on, other than that she had injured her knee. However, even after the current announcement, Ivey is still suggesting that Miles could come back for summer workouts. Note: not next season, but actually summer workouts.

Even if you are going with the "They were deceiving the committee for a better seed" idea, there is no real reason for Ivey to suggest such a relatively quick comeback if it was a torn ACL, which suggests that it might not be a major injury (although, IMO (not that I'm an expert in knee injuries) even some of the minor knee injuries would often take more rehab than would be available for her before the NCAAs).


I witnessed the chair say that without any information from NDame they went with the assumption she would play. That's my issue. The committee as well as the entire country knew that Miles was out in the ACC tournament. She had injured her knee and had not played since. And yet the committee pretended not to know that.

If a player is not playing then the committee should seed the team as if the player would continue to be out, UNLESS the team tells the NCAA that they expect the player to be back. No proof, just a statement of her status. And if they do then the committee can decide.

Subterfuge is part of competitive sport and coaches use it all the time. Ivy did nothing wrong. The committee did.


Unless the committee has rules that they must receive official notice from the team that player(s) will miss the tournament (which I believe they do have this as a rule). In which case, the team has the choice to be honest or not.

We've now seen how teams play without their star players in the conference tournaments. Florida St was full of doo doo and still was today. ND regathered themselves for today but will not have enough to win a Sweet Sixteen game if they get there. Of course, a 3 seed is not expected to win a S16 game, so there's that. With Miles, I'd have expected the team to be competing for the FF, based on how they were playing before she went down. They had all the pieces, even without Dara.



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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 03/18/23 9:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

readyAIMfire53 wrote:
Unless the committee has rules that they must receive official notice from the team that player(s) will miss the tournament (which I believe they do have this as a rule). In which case, the team has the choice to be honest or not.

Then show us the rule.



_________________
"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw

“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 03/19/23 8:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ex-Ref wrote:
readyAIMfire53 wrote:
Unless the committee has rules that they must receive official notice from the team that player(s) will miss the tournament (which I believe they do have this as a rule). In which case, the team has the choice to be honest or not.

Then show us the rule.



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_________________
"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw

“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.


Last edited by Ex-Ref on 03/19/23 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total
huskiemaniac



Joined: 24 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 03/19/23 8:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:

I don't believe Miles said this. Notre Dame via Ivey said after the seeding, "The current timetable for her return is that we hope that she will be back for the summer in order to participate for the workouts," but reportedly declined to state the actual knee diagnosis to protect Miles' "privacy." (Is that really what they are protecting?) Summer ends on September 23, 2023, six months from now, which happens to be the minimal recovery time for an ACL reconstruction according the the HSS.


What a fraud you are. You always pretend to be "above the fray," but troll with the best of them. Your own article says 6-9 months if we consider your uninformed, imagined injury type. School starts in August so workouts are over before your own time lines permit and all your contortions can't change that. And you have demonstrated the willingness to "believe" anything that you choose to imagine so your "belief" hardly concerns me. Sorry I said Miles rather than Ivey made the summer workout comment, as if that matters in the least. At least someone with some knowledge said it instead of the conspiracy theorists populating this thread.

I'm done discussing this with a bunch of trolls who know zero facts, care even less aboutwhat the facts or truth are, and just make up whatever fiction conveniently fits their trolling.



Says this site's #1 bully/troll, who trashed Geno, UCONN, et al re: Caroline Ducharme, without having even one iota of actual knowledge of the situation.

Rock on, troll.


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