| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 63979
Back to top |
|
NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 14097
Back to top |
 Posted: 07/21/22 8:21 am ::: |
Reply  |
|
When I looked at this part of the schedule…west coast trip…three games vs. LVA…at CT, at DC and two with CHI, I was not optimistic but I also wasn’t expecting almost a complete implosion.
Sandy said something interesting in the last post game about how the Liberty aren’t really built to be an interior team…with regard to the free throws. Which aside from my frustrations last game, is a big part of the free throw differential that the Liberty are often faced with. And also the Liberty were not well built to function after losing someone like Laney. In the fourth quarter last game the Liberty could barely even initiate an offensive set in the fourth quarter. You look at CT with athletic and strong and smart defenders. Then for NY their entire offense is built around Sabrina. If teams can kind of take her out of the game, they’ve now schemed for Johannes and Han. Johannes is quick but not strong and has basically stopped attacking the basket. Han went from averaging a rebound every three minutes earlier this year to barely being able to get a rebound. Our bigger, stronger players tend not to be quick and our quicker players aren’t that strong. Plus Howard is battling an injury of some sort which doesn’t help, but she’s in the “quick but not that strong” category. But as I said at the start of the season, the Liberty are not built to withstand injuries to any of Sabrina, Howard or Laney. Their support players are too incomplete.
Luckily, they have the opportunity next season to add free agent and legitimate draft help to improve. They’re at a negative FT differential of like 5 per game. They’re not an especially good rebounding team either. Basically their ability to win largely comes down to Sabrina having a big game as well as hot three point shooting. That’s a recipe for losing.
_________________
The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
|
|
Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 5065
Location: New York City
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 10:15 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
When I looked at this part of the schedule…west coast trip…three games vs. LVA…at CT, at DC and two with CHI, I was not optimistic but I also wasn’t expecting almost a complete implosion.
Sandy said something interesting in the last post game about how the Liberty aren’t really built to be an interior team…with regard to the free throws. Which aside from my frustrations last game, is a big part of the free throw differential that the Liberty are often faced with. And also the Liberty were not well built to function after losing someone like Laney. In the fourth quarter last game the Liberty could barely even initiate an offensive set in the fourth quarter. You look at CT with athletic and strong and smart defenders. Then for NY their entire offense is built around Sabrina. If teams can kind of take her out of the game, they’ve now schemed for Johannes and Han. Johannes is quick but not strong and has basically stopped attacking the basket. Han went from averaging a rebound every three minutes earlier this year to barely being able to get a rebound. Our bigger, stronger players tend not to be quick and our quicker players aren’t that strong. Plus Howard is battling an injury of some sort which doesn’t help, but she’s in the “quick but not that strong” category. But as I said at the start of the season, the Liberty are not built to withstand injuries to any of Sabrina, Howard or Laney. Their support players are too incomplete.
Luckily, they have the opportunity next season to add free agent and legitimate draft help to improve. They’re at a negative FT differential of like 5 per game. They’re not an especially good rebounding team either. Basically their ability to win largely comes down to Sabrina having a big game as well as hot three point shooting. That’s a recipe for losing. |
Perhaps someone will wonderfully offer a calculation for us. Consider all Liberty games in 2020, the regular season games in 2021 plus the playoff game vs. Phoenix, and the 25 regular-season games played thus far this season. (I'm writing this before today's game vs. Washington.) In how many of those games have Sabrina Ionescu, Betnijah Laney, and Natasha Howard all been on the court AND HEALTHY?
The important issues you've raised here are right on the mark. I don't mean to dismiss any of them. But if you just take this season's 25 games thus far and add in a healthy Laney for all of them (she was in the first four, that's all), it's a different team.
Yes, all teams have injuries, but New York has had especially unfortunate ones over these three seasons.
_________________
Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
|
|
myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 32341
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 10:45 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| breakfast is almost ready.
|
|
myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 32341
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 10:48 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| EDD so so smooth.
|
|
myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 32341
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 10:57 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ok NY fans, I know y'all are in love with Willoughby, or is it 'in hope'. Please explain what it is you are hoping for.
|
|
myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 32341
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 11:10 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| It was head to head. I don't know how the girls can't see that. I guess it's because Dolson is a renowned flopper, but she did get EWill's head to her nose.
|
|
Aladyyn
Joined: 23 Jul 2017
Posts: 1566
Location: Czech Republic
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 11:16 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| myrtle wrote: |
| EDD so so smooth. |
She's been looking a lot like her old self lately
|
|
Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 63979
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 11:27 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| myrtle wrote: |
| It was head to head. I don't know how the girls can't see that. I guess it's because Dolson is a renowned flopper, but she did get EWill's head to her nose. |
Probably cuz Dolson delayed reaction dramatized it.
_________________
Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
|
|
RavenDog
Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 6887
Location: Home
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 11:39 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Same problems, undisciplined, gunning, turnovers etc.
Sandy; You need to get off your ass and take control of your team.
It’s correctable. Your going to have to face and control Arike
Ionescu.
|
|
myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 32341
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 11:48 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| RavenDog wrote: |
Same problems, undisciplined, gunning, turnovers etc.
Sandy; You need to get off your ass and take control of your team.
It’s correctable. Your going to have to face and control Arike
Ionescu. |
Howard only has 1 TO so far. That's kind of a miracle.
At least according to her college coach, Io is actually very coachable. I assume she's playing the game Sandy wants her to play. And no, she's nothing like Arike.
|
|
myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 32341
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 11:56 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| I don't understand any NY lineup that doesn't have one of Dangermouse or Io on the floor. Didi is not a PG, Johannes is not a PG, Sami is not a PG. Yeah at least two of them can dribble the ball, one can pass the ball, but none are a PG.
|
|
readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7441
Location: Durham, NC
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 12:01 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Myisha Hines-Allen: the switch has turned ON. We've been waiting for this! She brings aggressiveness around the hoop this team sorely needs. Shakira will get there when she gets a better feel for when - and how hard - she'll get hit on those attempts around the basket.
Note that EDD did not score in Q3, yet Mystics extended lead from 3 to 11.
_________________
Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
|
|
myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 32341
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 12:14 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| I like Cloud, but in that halftime blurb on EDD where she said she was Robin to EDD's Batman, I thought she over exaggerated her own importance. If anybody is Robin on this team, to me it's Atkins.
|
|
RavenDog
Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 6887
Location: Home
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 12:17 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Thibault would have this Liberty team straightened out in one or two practices.
Totally undisciplined playing playground ball.
|
|
Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 63979
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 12:22 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| A little too late for a timeout now.
_________________
Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
|
|
Aladyyn
Joined: 23 Jul 2017
Posts: 1566
Location: Czech Republic
Back to top |
|
myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 32341
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 1:32 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| RavenDog wrote: |
Thibault would have this Liberty team straightened out in one or two practices.
Totally undisciplined playing playground ball. |
probably true on both accounts. Howard had a 'decent' game today but in general is playing much worse than she did in Seattle for some reason. Movement off the ball is not great. Inside play is practically non-existent and especially there is very little interior defense. The bench is also weak'ish. They all take a lot of quick contested shots. You really really miss Laney.
|
|
Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 63979
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 1:37 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| myrtle wrote: |
| You really really miss Laney. |
The turnover queen of the team. You forgot to mention she’s really really not a PG, but she acts like she’s one.
_________________
Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
|
|
NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 14097
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 3:34 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Sabrina is in a pretty rough position. Run the offense for Bec, Sami and Dangerfield, who entered the game shooting .362, .372 and .348. Along with Johannes largely struggling since the break. Or try to make things happen. I don’t see playground ball. The offense is very structured IMO to the point of micromanagement. The Liberty don’t run any isos. They’re a heavy pick and roll offense that depends on their actions to get free. The problem is what they’re putting on the court isn’t good enough to create good shots consistently. And as often as not Bec, Sami and Dangerfield miss open shots. The offense is built to take advantage of Howard’s pick and roll skill, Dolson’s screening, Laney’s playmaking and shot creation, and Sabrina. Without Laney it’s very Sabrina-heavy but what’s the alternative? I have to look it up but the Libs’ record with Sabrina scoring less than…I think 20…is unbelievably bad.
I don’t know that I love the system but I don’t think the team is undisciplined by nature. They look undisciplined because they’re very perimeter heavy and they’re only starting two legitimate starters at this point. And bigger, more athletic and physical teams are taking them out of what they do well, sometimes to the point where they can’t even get into good offensive sets. Even a team like DC isn’t big but they have good defenders and they’re long. Even if healthy I don’t know how good the Liberty are but without Laney forget it. They don’t match up well to good teams because they’re just not good enough.
Edit…6-5 when she scores 20+ with all losses by single digits. 3-12 when she doesn’t. 8 of those losses by double digits. It’s an awful lot to ask the primary PG to lead the team in rebounding, be second in the league in assists and tell her oh by the way you need to score 20 points just for the team to have a chance to win. Even Michael Jordan played on losing teams until the Bulls got other great players around him.
Sandy mentioned last game something about how the team was built. Well yeah. It was built for Hopkins to coach. Maybe if healthy it’d be better but either way it’s currently a hybrid. Between free agency and what appears to be a high draft pick they should be able to add pieces to balance out the roster. If you get the right players maybe you’ll see them be less dependent on structure because the talent can take over.
_________________
The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
|
|
myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 32341
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 3:58 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| The offense is built to take advantage of Howard’s pick and roll skill, Dolson’s screening... |
I agree part of the problem is that the shooters aren't shooting all that well. But also the pick and roll and Dolson's screening hasn't been working very well either. The inside buckets they do get tend to be slips to the basket from the weak side with some nice passes from CD, Io, or Johannes. I thought in some earlier games, Dolson did set some nice effective screens, but lately not so much. The play today where Io got caught on the baseline and nobody moved to make a target was indicative of some overall stagnation IMO.
|
|
NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 14097
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 7:29 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| myrtle wrote: |
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| The offense is built to take advantage of Howard’s pick and roll skill, Dolson’s screening... |
I agree part of the problem is that the shooters aren't shooting all that well. But also the pick and roll and Dolson's screening hasn't been working very well either. The inside buckets they do get tend to be slips to the basket from the weak side with some nice passes from CD, Io, or Johannes. I thought in some earlier games, Dolson did set some nice effective screens, but lately not so much. The play today where Io got caught on the baseline and nobody moved to make a target was indicative of some overall stagnation IMO. |
Totally agree. I think teams have caught up to them in terms of scouting. It’s taken away some of their ability to benefit from being structured. And they’re playing a bunch of tough teams as well which doesn’t help. As a team, the way they are built and what they do provides them with very narrow pathways to beat the better teams.
_________________
The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
|
|
NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 14097
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 7:38 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Shades wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
| You really really miss Laney. |
The turnover queen of the team. You forgot to mention she’s really really not a PG, but she acts like she’s one. |
Her turnovers are definitely a concern. But Dangerfield and Johannes have since been added to the team which I’d hope would cut down her ball handling.
That said, Laney is a true SF and gets assists. If you look at Bec’s assist rate, it’s probably bottom five among wing players on a per-minute basis. Laney’s presence would give the team the ability to match up better without having to sacrifice any particular area like you have to with everybody else. Like Bec is a great defender but inefficient offensive player and terrible passer. DiDi can defend some and is a good passer but she’s possibly the worst shooter in the WNBA for a wing player. Johannes is creative and a streaky scorer but she’s 135 pounds trying to play SF at times. Laney restores the Liberty at the least to not having a matchup nightmare against big wing players.
_________________
The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
|
|
Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 5065
Location: New York City
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 8:22 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
Her turnovers are definitely a concern. But Dangerfield and Johannes have since been added to the team which I’d hope would cut down her ball handling.
That said, Laney is a true SF and gets assists. If you look at Bec’s assist rate, it’s probably bottom five among wing players on a per-minute basis. Laney’s presence would give the team the ability to match up better without having to sacrifice any particular area like you have to with everybody else. Like Bec is a great defender but inefficient offensive player and terrible passer. DiDi can defend some and is a good passer but she’s possibly the worst shooter in the WNBA for a wing player. Johannes is creative and a streaky scorer but she’s 135 pounds trying to play SF at times. Laney restores the Liberty at the least to not having a matchup nightmare against big wing players. |
I agree with you and not with the trashing of Laney. Yes, she had too many turnovers last season. With Sabrina far from 100%, Laney was trying to do too much. Her absence this season is really being felt by the Liberty; you've well documented quite a few of the many reasons why.
_________________
Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
|
|
NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 14097
Back to top |
| Posted: 07/21/22 9:14 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Appreciate that. And excellent point about Laney probably trying to make up for Sabrina not being 100% last year. Also, I think Sandy has mostly done the best she can with what she’s been dealt. With Howard not 100% and Laney missing, the team is pretty much playing like what it is. That said, I would really like to see them spread the floor and iso more. They’re smaller than the teams they’re playing and largely playing into their hands with all the off-ball movements. Dangerfield is quick enough to beat people 1-on-1. JoJo is too. Sabrina beats people one-on-one too, depending on the matchup. I know it’s tough to change systems with so little practice time too, and I get that the system was designed thinking you’d have Laney and Willoughby. So getting away from their structure is probably not that doable. But I don’t think occasional 5-out isos are that difficult to execute either. I don’t know. Either way the team just isn’t yet good enough to win.
_________________
The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
|
|
|
|
