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toad455



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PostPosted: 02/24/22 7:17 pm    ::: Russia invades Ukraine Reply Reply with quote

https://abcnews.go.com/International/photos/russia-invades-ukraine-83082960/image-83096015






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PostPosted: 02/24/22 7:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote








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PostPosted: 02/24/22 9:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's gonna be a long, ugly fight. People predicting a quick Russian victory are ignoring the entire history of Russian warfare.



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PostPosted: 02/24/22 9:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
It's gonna be a long, ugly fight. People predicting a quick Russian victory are ignoring the entire history of Russian warfare.


Putin wants Ukraine, Estonia, Lativa, Lithuania and any country that used to be apart of the Soviet Union. This is going to be drawn out and the entire World needs to act quickly to take him down.



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PostPosted: 02/26/22 12:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
pilight wrote:
It's gonna be a long, ugly fight. People predicting a quick Russian victory are ignoring the entire history of Russian warfare.


Putin wants Ukraine, Estonia, Lativa, Lithuania and any country that used to be apart of the Soviet Union. This is going to be drawn out and the entire World needs to act quickly to take him down.


If he's THAT stupidly ballsy, then it's WW3. I personally think the EU should step in and intervene now already, and if needed, then the US troops.



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PostPosted: 02/26/22 1:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The EU isn't going to intervene in any meaningful way because too many of their members have economic ties to Russia that they won't risk. They've refused to sign off on the US's proposal to halt Russia's access to SWIFT, the security network for international banking. Ukraine has been blocked from joining NATO for the same reason, although NATO's official objection is political corruption. Russia will get a few slaps on the wrist, individual countries will send in anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles, NATO will position some troops in its member states closest to Ukraine, and that's about it. In the meantime, China is going to stab the West in the back and undermine sanctions against Russia.

Biden will never send US troops to Ukraine (or anywhere else) while he's facing a re-election campaign.


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PostPosted: 02/27/22 4:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Russia is not close to the US military. There are claims they are already short on missiles and having to ration them. I has been nothing like what we sent into Iraq. And the US has given enough arms to Ukraine that I kept seeing that a "56 tank column of Chechens was blown to smithereens". Tanks don't make any sense when your enemy can fire a guided missile that easily destroys each one.

I had heard about it but there so little discussion in the western press that I forgot about the fighting that has gone on in eastern Ukraine for 7 years. Two areas tried to become independent and Ukraine has been fighting them with a big disparity in casualties in favor of Ukraine. There were two agreements to try and resolve the conflict, Minsk and Minsk 2, but they didn't get followed or something. I know that Germany, France, Russia and two other countries were involved in creating those agreements.

I read that when the Berlin wall came down NATO (which I have heard was formed to fight the USSR) agreed not to expand. But their expansion right up to "Ukraine is next" seems to also have been a part of this.

And there was the activities of 2014 that the CIA was likely involved in - a pro Russia Ukraine government replaced with an anti-Russian government via a revolution/coup.

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/06/03/how-why-us-government-perpetrated-2014-coup-ukraine/


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PostPosted: 02/27/22 5:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

More to the point, Ukraine's military isn't close to Russia's. They've been throwing bicycles at Russian tanks while Russia is moving thermobaric rocket launchers into position. Nearly 400K Ukrainians have already been displaced.


tfan



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PostPosted: 02/27/22 6:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

From pictures getting posted Ukraine is destroying a lot of Russian vehicles. They have these Turkish drones that can go up and wipe out a tank. It seems that former KGB leader Putin and cronies didn’t have good intelligence and had no idea what they were facing. As one Russian soldier is said to have put it - a lot has changed since they took Crimea in 2014. Tanks are worse than useless if the enemy has modern anti-tank equipment.

The EU is now sending a lot of military equipment to Ukraine, including fighter jets.

Some Ukrainian official claimed today that Russia does not control the air space and has not taken a single city. Although, wartime claims can be inaccurate.


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PostPosted: 02/28/22 12:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Russia is not close to the US military. There are claims they are already short on missiles and having to ration them. I has been nothing like what we sent into Iraq. And the US has given enough arms to Ukraine that I kept seeing that a "56 tank column of Chechens was blown to smithereens". Tanks don't make any sense when your enemy can fire a guided missile that easily destroys each one.

I had heard about it but there so little discussion in the western press that I forgot about the fighting that has gone on in eastern Ukraine for 7 years. Two areas tried to become independent and Ukraine has been fighting them with a big disparity in casualties in favor of Ukraine. There were two agreements to try and resolve the conflict, Minsk and Minsk 2, but they didn't get followed or something. I know that Germany, France, Russia and two other countries were involved in creating those agreements.

I read that when the Berlin wall came down NATO (which I have heard was formed to fight the USSR) agreed not to expand. But their expansion right up to "Ukraine is next" seems to also have been a part of this.

And there was the activities of 2014 that the CIA was likely involved in - a pro Russia Ukraine government replaced with an anti-Russian government via a revolution/coup.

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/06/03/how-why-us-government-perpetrated-2014-coup-ukraine/

Wait. What?

The 2014 "coup" is about as much of a "coup" as it is that Biden is currently the president of the United States. In 2014 Ukraine ousted a bunch of corrupt individuals and held some of their first truly open and free elections. The current government led by Zelensky won with 70% of the vote. Zelensky ran on bringing Ukraine closer to the EU... including seeking membership in the EU. He also discussed seeking membership in NATO, though NATO had been very resistant to that idea.

The site you linked to is a Russian "think tank" that the US says is actually an arm of the Russian Government.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Culture_Foundation

So yeah, Russian Propaganda is probably not the best place to get your news on Ukraine.

As far as the supposed NATO "promise", that didn't actually happen. There was a discussion about not moving more troops into East Berlin as the wall came down, but that's it.

In fact, Gorbachev himself said there was no NATO promise: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/amp/

Otherwise, yes Ukraine has been fighting the breakaway provinces. Those provinces are the most "Russiafied" parts of Ukraine. Russia has been openly arming them. Think of it as if after the last election, the states that voted for Trump decided they didn't like the results of the election, so instead of just coming up with insane conspiracy theories, they decided to declare themselves independent. And then imagine Russia was there giving them tanks and bombs and guns and all sorts of other fun death dealing goodies. And then Russia declaring that the US was committing "genecide" against them.



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PostPosted: 02/28/22 1:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

In related news, per cnn.com....

France is going to submit a request to the UN Security Council for a ceasefire and humanitarian access in the morning.

Belarus is poised to join Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Elon Musk is supplying a large amount of Starlink satellite communication equipment and service to Ukraine.

Putin has placed their deterrence forces, which include nuclear weapons, on high alert.


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PostPosted: 02/28/22 3:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
tfan wrote:
Russia is not close to the US military. There are claims they are already short on missiles and having to ration them. I has been nothing like what we sent into Iraq. And the US has given enough arms to Ukraine that I kept seeing that a "56 tank column of Chechens was blown to smithereens". Tanks don't make any sense when your enemy can fire a guided missile that easily destroys each one.

I had heard about it but there so little discussion in the western press that I forgot about the fighting that has gone on in eastern Ukraine for 7 years. Two areas tried to become independent and Ukraine has been fighting them with a big disparity in casualties in favor of Ukraine. There were two agreements to try and resolve the conflict, Minsk and Minsk 2, but they didn't get followed or something. I know that Germany, France, Russia and two other countries were involved in creating those agreements.

I read that when the Berlin wall came down NATO (which I have heard was formed to fight the USSR) agreed not to expand. But their expansion right up to "Ukraine is next" seems to also have been a part of this.

And there was the activities of 2014 that the CIA was likely involved in - a pro Russia Ukraine government replaced with an anti-Russian government via a revolution/coup.

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/06/03/how-why-us-government-perpetrated-2014-coup-ukraine/

Wait. What?

The 2014 "coup" is about as much of a "coup" as it is that Biden is currently the president of the United States.


I said "revolution/coup". Wikipedia uses revolution: Revolution of Dignity (aka Maidan Revolution)

Quote:
In 2014 Ukraine ousted a bunch of corrupt individuals and held some of their first truly open and free elections.


The big grievance (per Wikipedia) of the insurrectionists was that the President didn't "sign a political association and free trade agreement with the European Union (EU) at a meeting of the Eastern Partnership in Vilnius in Lithuania". That rings a bell as far as what I remember their grievance to be. Also was reported back then that the President was aligned with Putin/Russia.

From Wikipedia: "The Revolution of Dignity, also known as the Maidan Revolution, took place in Ukraine in February 2014 at the end of the Euromaidan protests when a series of violent events (including deaths of protesters and police) involving protesters, riot police, and unknown shooters in the Ukrainian capital Kyiv culminated in the ousting of elected President Viktor Yanukovych and the overthrow of the Ukrainian government."

It doesn't appear to me to be similar to the defeat of Donald Trump and the election of Joe Biden.

Quote:
The current government led by Zelensky won with 70% of the vote. Zelensky ran on bringing Ukraine closer to the EU... including seeking membership in the EU. He also discussed seeking membership in NATO, though NATO had been very resistant to that idea.


They may be "very resistant to that idea" but they chose to not rule it out (even just with regard to Ukraine) just last month when it could have possibly helped avoid the invasion: US, NATO rule out halt to expansion, reject Russian demands

Quote:
The site you linked to is a Russian "think tank" that the US says is actually an arm of the Russian Government.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Culture_Foundation

So yeah, Russian Propaganda is probably not the best place to get your news on Ukraine.



If truly a propaganda site it could serve as a good counterpart to the US media which act as stenographers for the congressional-military-spy_machine-government_contractor propaganda. e.g. "Iraq must have WMDs because, although the UN Weapons Inspectors can't find them at hundreds of sites they have been directed to by the CIA, the CIA is not challenging the Bush/Cheney/Neocons claims that they are sure they are there".

I believe that the US government would also label RT Russian propaganda and yet anytime I have looked at one of their YouTube videos I did not get that impression.

Quote:
As far as the supposed NATO "promise", that didn't actually happen. There was a discussion about not moving more troops into East Berlin as the wall came down, but that's it.

In fact, Gorbachev himself said there was no NATO promise: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/amp/


Maybe no NATO-the-organization promise, but the big cheese of NATO was saying it and Gorbachev said eastward expansion would be unacceptable.

Memorandum of conversation between Mikhail Gorbachev and James Baker in Moscow.

Baker goes on to say, “We understand the need for assurances to the countries in the East. If we maintain a presence in a Germany that is a part of NATO, there would be no extension of NATO’s jurisdiction for forces of NATO one inch to the east.” Later in the conversation, Baker poses the same position as a question, “would you prefer a united Germany outside of NATO that is independent and has no US forces or would you prefer a united Germany with ties to NATO and assurances that there would be no extension of NATO’s current jurisdiction eastward?” The declassifiers of this memcon actually redacted Gorbachev’s response that indeed such an expansion would be “unacceptable” – but Baker’s letter to Kohl the next day, published in 1998 by the Germans, gives the quote.

The key thing to note is that Baker and Bush (in a separate speech) realized that Russia wouldn't want to end up surrounded by NATO. And Gorbachev said he didn't want it either. But we ultimately did it anyway.

And other world leaders said it as well:
Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner

Although I have to assume that nothing was put in writing. A verbal promise given as part of trying to convince someone to take specific actions is admittedly nothing to expect nations to keep. The way I have heard it mentioned I thought it was a formal agreement.

Quote:
Otherwise, yes Ukraine has been fighting the breakaway provinces. Those provinces are the most "Russiafied" parts of Ukraine. Russia has been openly arming them. Think of it as if after the last election, the states that voted for Trump decided they didn't like the results of the election, so instead of just coming up with insane conspiracy theories, they decided to declare themselves independent. And then imagine Russia was there giving them tanks and bombs and guns and all sorts of other fun death dealing goodies. And then Russia declaring that the US was committing "genocide" against them.


Maybe Russia gave them weapons because Ukraine didn't allow them to separate and attacked militarily. If someone is attacked with military weaponry it would appear to me to be a humanitarian act to give them arms to defend themselves. Although we chose not to do so with the breakaway Muslim Bosnians as Yugoslavia shelled them for months. So maybe not.

It doesn't seem a "should never be allowed" or "should be met with military force" situation to me for an area to leave a country (with a majority or super majority vote). People (well, at least one very rich guy) in California have raised the idea of leaving the USA. But the problem is with federal programs like Social Security that have lifelong participation. And there is the big issue of the natural resources of a country are not equally divided, so I can see where that would upset the "breaking away from" country if the section trying to break away had oil fields or the best arable land, etc. So yeah, then it would probably take military force to stop it. I guess I am "not sure" on that issue.


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PostPosted: 02/28/22 10:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There is a significant historical context that we do well
to remember - or learn of, if we never knew it before: In the last
century alone, Europe and Russia have created an ever-changing
geopolitical landscape.

I talked with my friend in Estonia today. He reminded me that Estonia
wasn't even a *thing* until about 1919, after WWI had ended
(about the time Ukraine was recognized as a distinct segment of "Russia").
A couple of decades later Germany claimed the Baltic States.
Then, after WWII, Russia claimed all that territory. There was bloodshed, each time.
Come the 1990s, Estonia, et al. re-emerge as their own entities.

This animated map clearly illustrates how the geopolitical boundaries have been in a constant state of flux.

My point is simply that what is going down in Ukraine is NOT new: it's a shock, as most of us have never
seen such aggression. I'm old enough to remember, as a child, the invasion of Czechoslovakia as a news item,
but disruptions in Europe have been negligible since the breakup of Yugoslavia.

Mind you, I'm not trying to minimize the *wrongness* of this, nor its
human toll. But it's nothing new, historically speaking.
I quote my Estonian friend: "We're f**kked. We've always been f**kked".



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PostPosted: 02/28/22 2:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
“Show this to Putin,” he said angrily. “The eyes of this child, and crying doctors.”


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/02/28/putin-doctors-young-ukranian-girl/6974640001/



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PostPosted: 02/28/22 5:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I called it similar to Biden over Trump in that Zelensky was elected into office. But yes, it would be more similar if Trump had been removed from office like he should have been, and then the elections happened.

But the point was they had democratic elections, and Zelensky won in a landslide. And yes, one of the big reasons he won is that Ukraine's people, by and large, *strongly* support joining the EU (which Zelensky just officially applied to do), and NATO as well.

As far as NATO, of course they didn't turn them down. NATO's long standing policy is to have an open door to all those who wish to enter, as long as they meet certain guidelines. Which is why NATO refused Russia's demands that they never be allowed in. What I was nothing was that NATO was *not* courting Ukraine or trying to entice then in. It was the other way around.

RT is Russian State Media, which means it is absolutely propaganda. They require Kremlin approval on all stories. They do not print or air stories critical of Putin/Russia.

While the US media is prone to cultural blindness at times, the US government does not have editorial control over them, much to the chagrin of wannabe dictators like Trump.

As far as the separatists, of course Ukraine didn't allow them to separate. Just as the US fought a civil war to keep their country whole as well. "I don't like the results of a fair election" is not a legitimate reason to break up a country. That Russia is supplying weapons to the separatists is a gross violation of Ukraine's sovereignty.

What I hope the US takes from this is some self reflection. We seem to mostly be united in understanding that Ukraine is in the right here and Russia is doing something terrible. Perhaps we can stop playing the role of Russia in future entanglements and choose to not violate the sovereignty of other nations just because we feel it is in our "interest" to do so, or because we see them as some sort of nebulous threat to us.



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PostPosted: 03/03/22 9:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm an advocate of Diplomacy, and I've been impressed at how united and tough the sanctions have been. I had some hope for a day or two.

But now they're firing at Zaporizhzhia. Putin's fucking crazy. This is a line I truly didn't think he'd pass, and apparently more extreme actions are needed.

The only silver lining is that I think this is a sign Russia's nuke's aren't quite up to par.



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PostPosted: 03/03/22 9:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
Putin's fucking crazy.


Ya think? It's unfathomable to me how anyone in his position wants to
usurp a neighboring country AND blow it to smithereens in the process.
What thinking leads to destroying what you want to take for yourself?

I don't get it....on 9/11, we're attacked by "terrorists". Not a by country,
but terrorists. How/why is Putin not considered a terrorist?
Is it because Russia is a recognized country? Is it cuz everyone knew
what was coming to Ukraine, and we didn't on 9/11? Does that make a difference?

HOW can the world stand by and do nothing to offer hard
defense, while a terrorist commits war crimes, blasting
civilians....and NOBODY can start flying over Ukraine with
fighter jets to blast the Russians? I am not a military-savvy person, but I just have to believe
there's so much more that could be done for Ukrainians than handing out some blankets and food.



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PostPosted: 03/03/22 10:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:
Putin's fucking crazy.


Ya think? It's unfathomable to me how anyone in his position wants to
usurp a neighboring country AND blow it to smithereens in the process.
What thinking leads to destroying what you want to take for yourself?

I don't get it....on 9/11, we're attacked by "terrorists". Not a by country,
but terrorists. How/why is Putin not considered a terrorist?
Is it because Russia is a recognized country? Is it cuz everyone knew
what was coming to Ukraine, and we didn't on 9/11? Does that make a difference?

HOW can the world stand by and do nothing to offer hard
defense, while a terrorist commits war crimes, blasting
civilians....and NOBODY can start flying over Ukraine with
fighter jets to blast the Russians? I am not a military-savvy person, but I just have to believe
there's so much more that could be done for Ukrainians than handing out some blankets and food.


With a bit of an International Law background, (From a while ago) I can answer some of that.

Putin isn't considered a terrorist because he's the head of a nation state. TBH, it's actually better that way in some ways because there is established international law to deal with this shit, whereas not as much with terrorists (which is part of the reason for the disasters following 9/11 and Obama's drone controversies)

The way international law works is...
It's generally illegal to attack a country. (Shocker..Russia is acting illegally)
It is not illegal to defend yourself. (Ukraine isn't)
In order to help a country defending itself that country needs to specifically ask for it. However, ally organizations and countries can intervene diplomatically (economic sanctions)

Ukraine hasn't asked us, or any other country, to help them fight - yet. So that's one major reason why we aren't doing it - and if we were to help them before they asked us, that would be a violation of International Law.



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PostPosted: 03/03/22 11:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
I'm an advocate of Diplomacy, and I've been impressed at how united and tough the sanctions have been. I had some hope for a day or two.

But now they're firing at Zaporizhzhia. Putin's fucking crazy. This is a line I truly didn't think he'd pass, and apparently more extreme actions are needed.

The only silver lining is that I think this is a sign Russia's nuke's aren't quite up to par.


Me too. But I'm ready for someone to put a nuke up Putin's ass.

Those FAEs that Russia is using might be a good alternative.



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PostPosted: 03/03/22 11:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:

Ukraine hasn't asked us, or any other country, to help them fight - yet. So that's one major reason why we aren't doing it - and if we were to help them before they asked us, that would be a violation of International Law.

But I thought he (Zelensky) HAS implored ANY allied country to help, like with enforcing 'no-fly' zones. And what might be the reason he hasn't asked yet for specific allied intervention?



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PostPosted: 03/03/22 11:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Allies getting directly involved takes the war to a whole 'nother level so it's pretty easy to see why that hasn't happened just yet.
If you agree that the guy is crazy and you're aware that the guy has nukes then maybe taking it up a notch is not a decision to take lightly.

Sanctions seem at least worth a try. They're clearly having an effect in Russia, so maybe he can be swayed from within. To me that's preferable to rolling the dice on his sanity atm.
For me at least it has been pretty eye-opening to see all the ways that the various sanctions and shutdowns can impact a country.



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PostPosted: 03/04/22 12:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yes, sanctions have their effect....but mostly over time, time that the
genocide victims are out of. Why can't some allies offer air troops to
blast away at Russian convoys? Certainly, intervention takes all to a
new level, but I say bring it on - Putin vows regrettable consequences
to those who might intervene, but it's time to make HIM realize a few regrets.



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PostPosted: 03/04/22 8:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Yes, sanctions have their effect....but mostly over time, time that the
genocide victims are out of. Why can't some allies offer air troops to
blast away at Russian convoys? Certainly, intervention takes all to a
new level, but I say bring it on - Putin vows regrettable consequences
to those who might intervene, but it's time to make HIM realize a few regrets.


Because Ukraine hasn’t asked.

They’ve asked for weapons and humanitarian aid, which were given.

They also asked for no fly zones, which..I’m not sure what countries have done with that, although I don’t see why he wants those, considering Russia doesn’t have to go over a country to get to Ukraine, but there must be something I’ve missed.

It’s an international law rule, that stems from respecting the sovereignty of a country and trying to limit war.

Tbh, I think Ukraine will need help, but I’m hoping the sanctions force him to shut down before then.



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PostPosted: 03/04/22 12:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Yes, sanctions have their effect....but mostly over time, time that the
genocide victims are out of. Why can't some allies offer air troops to
blast away at Russian convoys? Certainly, intervention takes all to a
new level, but I say bring it on - Putin vows regrettable consequences
to those who might intervene, but it's time to make HIM realize a few regrets.


Putin is bat-shit crazy. He's already deployed nuclear weapons in Belarus, threatened to deploy them to Cuba and Venezuela, and bombed a Ukrainian nuclear reactor.



mercfan3 wrote:
Because Ukraine hasn’t asked.

They’ve asked for weapons and humanitarian aid, which were given.

They also asked for no fly zones, which..I’m not sure what countries have done with that, although I don’t see why he wants those, considering Russia doesn’t have to go over a country to get to Ukraine, but there must be something I’ve missed.

It’s an international law rule, that stems from respecting the sovereignty of a country and trying to limit war.

Tbh, I think Ukraine will need help, but I’m hoping the sanctions force him to shut down before then.


NATO has already said they won't police a no-fly zone over Ukraine because they're afraid it will incite a widespread war in Europe.

Besides the sanctions, which have been more extensive than I thought possible, Russia also has a developing problem with younger, technically-savvy people who are getting their news from internet sources and not from state-run media, and there's now anti-Putin backlash. Of course, 7000 anti-war protesters have already been locked up. I think he must be facing even more dissension from the oligarchs who've seen their fortunes disappear. Pressure from all these sources should eventually work, unless NATO antagonizes the nutcase into dropping a nuke somewhere in the meantime.


justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN


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PostPosted: 03/04/22 6:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

For people thinking "No-Fly Zone, why not?", realize that would mean US/NATO and Russian planes shooting at each other. Something that (at least as far as either country will admit to) never happened throughout all of the Cold War. Realpolitik, in all it's cold machiavellian heartlessness, was the go to philosophy for a reason. While I hope we've moved beyond some of the things realpolitik called for, when it comes to how two nuclear powers interact and the cold calculations that come from it, that remains essential. It's just much harder to make those cold calculations in the digital age, where you can see the consequences, and hear the pleas, in real time. Those costs are no longer abstract. Which is fair. It's only right that when those choices are made we look them in the eye, see and hear them, and know completely the price they are being asked to pay.

For people who still think we should put boots on the ground, or come into direct conflict with Russian forces, I would suggest listening to this.

https://twitter.com/TheLastWord/status/1499592957510524930?t=dw7NMJLrqlqFBWIedL3Xwg&s=19



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