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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 6800
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Posted: 09/25/21 12:22 pm ::: |
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I like the Hines-Allen idea
However considering she is a RFA I do not see Washington giving her up for nothing. Even if they can't afford to keep her (assuming they go after Charles or Meesseman with bigger money) there will still be someone out there willing to trade for her. Because of Washington's cap situation the return has to be rookie scale contracts or picks. NY has a decent amount of the first but I don't see Washington giving up Hines-Allen for Shook, Jones, Willoughby or Odom.
Conclusion if we want Hines-Allen who is a good fit and probably one of our better chances to move up the ladder what are we willing to give up. My calculation we would have to do the #5 pick for Hines-Allen, so should we do it? If not, what do you think we could get her for, a near max deal that Washington would be afraid to match? Our first round pick in 23? Onyenwere?
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 09/25/21 1:06 pm ::: |
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Quote: |
Section 6. Trade Rules.
(d) Exclusive negotiating rights to a player (other than draft rights, rights to Reserved Players and rights to suspended players with no playing services remaining in the Player Contracts) may only be traded with the written consent of the player. |
Washington can't trade Hines-Allen without her permission. If she doesn't like where the team is sending her, Myisha can just wait them out. At some point, the Mystics have to commit their money -- probably to either Charles or Meesseman. Once they do, Washington won't have enough cap space to match and it becomes a moot point that MHA is restricted. Alternatively, they could just sign Hines-Allen and let Charles and Meesseman walk.
_________________ You can always do something else.
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 6800
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Posted: 09/25/21 1:41 pm ::: |
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Because of the way cap space has tightened up sign and trades seem like they are becoming more common even for UFA
If Washington can find a partner that MHA is happy with a sign and trade seems very likely and for the team she is going to it would be a guaranteed rather than a maybe.
It could also be dangerous to wait out Washington because as Washington commits their cap so will the other teams who knows what would be left and from whom unless Hines-Allen is pretty confident in her market.
I don't see a team getting MHA for nothing unless they offer her a big deal. NY could make that offer, so could Atl, Dallas, (Chicago if they blow everything up) it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I am not confident that NY will be able to get MHA unless it comes at a price.
Would I trade the #5 pick for MHA if it worked for all parties? Maybe. MHA is probably one of the better shots NY has at larger improvement, but we would have to see who is available in the draft. Bringing in the vets this year is why we improved, so it might be worth the risk.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 09/25/21 2:17 pm ::: |
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I think that's the assumption -- that MHA will get a lot of money. The question is how far up the range do they want to go? Laney was lucky to cash in right after her big year. Unfortunately for Hines-Allen, she is coming off a season where she missed 14 games and her numbers are significantly down. Laney also had the extra service year, which qualified her for more than ordinary max. So, MHA will definitely get less than Laney. The question is who will bid up her price? Which teams want MHA and can also afford a high salary? She's an odd-sized player who fits the Liberty style but might not be ideal everywhere. Also, from the player's point of view, she is from New Jersey and has said in interviews that she grew up a Liberty fan. You would think, all things considered, that she'd strongly lean toward New York if she were to leave Washington.
In terms of waiting things out, it's unlikely to come to that. NY can send MHA an offer sheet, and once she signs it the clock starts. Washington has 4 days to match or lose her.
_________________ You can always do something else.
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Cooper2009
Joined: 04 Nov 2017 Posts: 197 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: 09/25/21 2:34 pm ::: |
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Stormeo wrote: |
Assuming EWill finds a way to stay in the League next year, it ought to be in a severely limited role on a team that will only bring her in off the bench. If she had a prime, she's well past it now. Hines-Allen is a trendy target these days, but she's only 6-1 – acquiring her would simply not address the lack of height at all. Harrison I highly doubt gets given away by Dallas. Hawkins is no upgrade for any team if the past two years are any indication.
But while Billings doesn't have an outside shot, I agree that she would generally be a fit. The Liberty could find a way to execute a sign-and-trade with Atlanta to get her so that they wouldn't necessarily have to overpay for her – and without giving up any 1RPs from '22 or '23. I'd ultimately be willing to give up Onyenwere + Jones/Odom/Willoughby, for example. Though you might be able to fleece the Dream with just two of Jones/Odom/Willoughby...
Howard was good at the 5 in Seattle because of who was alongside her at the 4. (And in more subtle fashion, who we had at the other three positions.) If you can get a more talented player than Howard to play the 4 (and this is assuming they are an actual 4), by all means, bring 'em in. And no, I don't think Hines-Allen is more talented than Howard, though they seem to be somewhat equal at this point.
I still think this team ought to bring in two centers/non-short post players, especially if you get to training camp and one of them just isn't jibing & vibing on the court with everyone else, for whatever reason.
The good news is, because this team A) had obviously, objectively improved from 2020 to 2021; and B) continues to be based in New York City (aka nowhere north or west of that), they should be more attractive to free agents this year than average. Keyword: should. |
So I agree with your points for sure. I think Hines-Allen fits the mold of what NY is doing and is actually good at what they’re looking for in a player at that position. I don’t think she’s better than Howard but I do believe she can play alongside Howard and be successful. Billings won’t take top dollar to get I don’t think, but Atlanta also should just keep her.
Harrison is more than likely not going anywhere anytime soon… but I wish she would because she’s a good piece for a good team.
Also Hebard as she was brought up…
Maybe a three way trade idea?
Jones to Atlanta
Deshields to Atlanta
Hebard to NY
Billings to NY
Onyenwere to Chicago
Odom to Chicago
_________________ Nared.
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NYSports56
Joined: 03 Jul 2018 Posts: 1126 Location: New Jersey, USA
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Posted: 09/25/21 3:17 pm ::: |
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Cooper2009 wrote: |
Maybe a three way trade idea?
Jones to Atlanta
Deshields to Atlanta
Hebard to NY
Billings to NY
Onyenwere to Chicago
Odom to Chicago |
I'd love to make this happen, and think it would help both Atlanta and NY, but why would Chicago do this? I like Mikhela a lot, but I wouldn't trade Deshields for Onyunwere and Odom regardless of what my team looked like.
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Cooper2009
Joined: 04 Nov 2017 Posts: 197 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: 09/25/21 3:55 pm ::: |
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NYSports56 wrote: |
Cooper2009 wrote: |
Maybe a three way trade idea?
Jones to Atlanta
Deshields to Atlanta
Hebard to NY
Billings to NY
Onyenwere to Chicago
Odom to Chicago |
I'd love to make this happen, and think it would help both Atlanta and NY, but why would Chicago do this? I like Mikhela a lot, but I wouldn't trade Deshields for Onyunwere and Odom regardless of what my team looked like. |
Let’s throw Carter in there. Chicago has Parker/Sloot/Quigley… and Wade as coach… any issues WILL be better.
_________________ Nared.
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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019 Posts: 4701
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Posted: 09/25/21 3:57 pm ::: |
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Hebard as an acquisition makes all the sense in the world, but I just don't think Chicago would give her up. Yeah, she's their 5th post now, but that will change. Dolson almost certainly will walk if nothing else but for salary/salary cap reasons. Ndour will be a free agent as well, and she didn't have a good season so the Sky may let her go (again); even if they chose to re-sign Ndour, Hebard already moves up to 4th post with Dolson's departure. And then both Parker and Stevens are only signed through 2022. Chicago's only controllable players beyond 2022 are Hebard and Evans. Who really knows, but one would think the Sky would want to keep those two.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019 Posts: 4701
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 66922 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 09/25/21 9:58 pm ::: |
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Not many of us left from the days of the ESPN board.
There are a few threads about RebKell history if you care to search for them.
_________________ I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18031 Location: Queens
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Posted: 09/25/21 10:41 pm ::: |
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Stormeo wrote: |
Queenie wrote: |
Stormeo wrote: |
I do tend to think that if the front office (do we still call them LFO around here? Or was that only a Laimbeer-or-perhaps-earlier era thing?)… |
One more dubious personnel move and we may have to consider downgrading them back to FFO.
To answer that particular historical question: back in ye olden days when ESPN a) had message boards and b) they were not a wretched hive of trolls and incoherent babbling, Laimbeer or someone else within the organization posted under the handle "shockfrontoffice". When the bulk of the message board action moved over here, that got shortened to SFO. Sometime between stops he figured out how to turn off the caps lock on his keyboard, albeit not in real life. (Perhaps his occasional sidekick clued him in.) |
Fascinating history. Thanks for the enlightenment. So front office initials ‘round here stem from Laimbeer… what an influential guy lmao. And those ESPN message boards sure sound like an… interesting concept. Maybe helpful to the growth of the game in the long run had they persevered, but sadly full of enough rot & decay to die out. Tsk tsk.
Wait, so “FFO”? In a sentence, would one say “I hate this FFO, they suck!”? Is that really what that first F stands for? |
In a sentence one would say "Oh, God, what did FFO do NOW?!" The definite article is acceptable but less common. One would not speak of "an" FFO, as there was only one. (Okay, technically two, but one was a parody of the other.)
As for the derivation of the first F... let us just say that the board policy on strong language was much looser in the past. And you may have noticed that Liberty fans have strong opinions, long memories, and an astonishing ability to hold grudges.
_________________ Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 09/25/21 11:31 pm ::: |
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Queenie wrote: |
And you may have noticed that Liberty fans have strong opinions, long memories, and an astonishing ability to hold grudges. |
I'm in no way disagreeing with your statement. Nor am I saying I've never acted badly here. I'm just curious about something. I don't follow other team's threads carefully. Obviously Liberty fans post far more often on RebKell than fans of other WNBA teams. Would you say that your three statements above are more true of Liberty fans than of other fans on RebKell?
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 09/26/21 5:55 am ::: |
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Re: the Dolson/Hebard discussion. The ability to replace Dolson with a younger/cheaper player with similar attributes might be enticing. #5 for Hebard might make that a reality.
Something else to consider. You have the 10 roster players under contract. #5, or an acquired player, would be 11. I think Johannes is likely to return. She’d be 12. I think we all agree a free agent/trade for RFA is likely. That would leave the roster at either 12 or 13. That’s not including if Durr comes back. That doesn’t even consider Han. That eliminates the second round pick. There’s also the possibility of re-signing Bec, which gets you back to 11. Things have just kind of necessitated how the Libs roster has wound up the last few years. At some point what they consider to be their depth will necessitate more significant player movement. I wouldn’t expect Durr to come back, but with so many unknowns with Covid, who’s to say that there won’t be a medication that makes her feel better?
Whatever happens, at some point, be it ‘22 or ‘23, significant decisions will need to be made about their young/upside players.
_________________ The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 09/26/21 8:35 am ::: |
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NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
Whatever happens, at some point, be it ‘22 or ‘23, significant decisions will need to be made about their young/upside players. |
I've never been all that impressed with our heralded (by Kolb and Hopkins) six non-Sabrina rookies from 2020. Walker and Holmes are already gone and so far haven't lit the world on fire anywhere else. I can imagine a 2022 Liberty roster without Jones, Odom, or Shook. I know Walt Hopkins thinks Kylie Shook will be outstanding in season five or six; count me as quite skeptical. The only one of the six I view as certain to be on the Liberty roster in 2022 is Jocelyn Willoughby. Given how well she played in New York's training camp this season, I feel sure she's going to get a good look in 2022.
I just don't see a strong case for continuing with Jones, Odom, or Shook. I don't want to trash any of them, but I'm not convinced that even one of them will be a valuable WNBA player in her Season 3 or beyond.
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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bluedevilaztecfan5
Joined: 16 Mar 2010 Posts: 796 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: 09/26/21 12:06 pm ::: |
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Bob Lamm wrote: |
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
Whatever happens, at some point, be it ‘22 or ‘23, significant decisions will need to be made about their young/upside players. |
I just don't see a strong case for continuing with Jones, Odom, or Shook. I don't want to trash any of them, but I'm not convinced that even one of them will be a valuable WNBA player in her Season 3 or beyond. |
I get easily attached to every player who is on the Liberty roster.
I love Jaz, Neah, and Kylie.
That said, they really haven’t developed much in their first two seasons with the Liberty. Arguably all three have regressed this season.
Perhaps in a different system Jones and Shook could be decent backups.
But I’m not sure they should be with NY next season, same with Odom.
All three are good defensive players, but if that doesn’t get you on the court I would rather have players who fit offensively and are willing to take (and make) shots, as bench players.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 10911
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Posted: 09/26/21 2:04 pm ::: |
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Shook actually improved her shooting (esp. 3 point) this season. Her minutes increases despite being used less after the break. Her rebounding and assists were also up a bit on a per minute basis. It's odd she went from being a starter to a little used reserve and NY was winning games when she was starting and mainly losing when she didn't start. Seems like if NY doesn't want her, someone else would. (Of course, I might be a bit biased by having seen her outplay the Dream starting center.....
Jones stats do show she declined but might still get picked up by some team. She might well be a player that needs to be on an expansion team to get enough minutes to develop.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 09/27/21 7:28 pm ::: |
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Bob Lamm wrote: |
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
Whatever happens, at some point, be it ‘22 or ‘23, significant decisions will need to be made about their young/upside players. |
I've never been all that impressed with our heralded (by Kolb and Hopkins) six non-Sabrina rookies from 2020. Walker and Holmes are already gone and so far haven't lit the world on fire anywhere else. I can imagine a 2022 Liberty roster without Jones, Odom, or Shook. I know Walt Hopkins thinks Kylie Shook will be outstanding in season five or six; count me as quite skeptical. The only one of the six I view as certain to be on the Liberty roster in 2022 is Jocelyn Willoughby. Given how well she played in New York's training camp this season, I feel sure she's going to get a good look in 2022.
I just don't see a strong case for continuing with Jones, Odom, or Shook. I don't want to trash any of them, but I'm not convinced that even one of them will be a valuable WNBA player in her Season 3 or beyond. |
I wasn’t even thinking about Odom or Shook really. I like Jones though. It’s a subjective opinion but I think Jones is the best all-around defensive player on the team. I also think 90% of Jones’ problem was playing out of position. But again that’s subjective. That said, I was thinking mostly about Onyenwere and Richards. They love Richards and Onyenwere clearly has some sort of WNBA future. But those are two of several players they have of a similar size profile. If they acquire a true PF or C, I was mostly thinking, well what’s going to happen to Onyenwere and Richards.
And Shook showed flashes too. I’m not a huge fan but she has potential. But I was thinking more about the logjam that may develop with their midsized players. Besides what they already have, the #5 pick could potentially bring another one. And even if it’s a truer post, where does that leave Mic and DiDi?
_________________ The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 6800
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Posted: 09/27/21 10:02 pm ::: |
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Bring back R. Allen yes or no?
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 09/27/21 11:09 pm ::: |
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J-Spoon wrote: |
Bring back R. Allen yes or no? |
Do I get an F if I don't answer "yes" or "no"? Do I get sent to the RebKell penalty box? (Is it OK to use a hockey reference here?)
I like Rebecca Allen. I've made my criticisms of her play. If I'm not going to be permanently banned from the Liberty pages on RebKell, then my answer is "maybe." Depending mainly on who else will or may be on New York's 2022 roster.
Sorry, J-Spoon, if this is annoying. I genuinely can't say "yes" or "no" right now for Allen or for some others on the Liberty roster.
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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bluedevilaztecfan5
Joined: 16 Mar 2010 Posts: 796 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: 09/28/21 9:23 am ::: |
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J-Spoon wrote: |
Bring back R. Allen yes or no? |
I agree with Bob, depends how ‘big’ of a free agent(s) we go after this offseason.
But my vote would be yes if we can afford to.
I loved her 3pt shooting and entry pass defense.
I think with her height and length her 2ptFG% could increase if we give her more jumpshots off curls/screens, and have her limit her off the bounce shots.
One of only two players in the top 12 in blocks (12th) and steals (4th), the other being defensive player of the year Big Syl.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32335
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Posted: 09/28/21 12:45 pm ::: |
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J-Spoon wrote: |
Bring back R. Allen yes or no? |
yes. IMO there were games where she was the one keeping y'all even in the game. She does a lot of little things for the team. In an ideal world, she wouldn't start but would probably average around 15 minutes off the bench. That could be more or less depending on if her shot was falling.
does my vote count? I'm not a Lib fan, though I do like some of your players.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32335
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Posted: 09/28/21 12:54 pm ::: |
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Also, I like Onyenwere but think she could/should probably be used as a trade pawn while her value is relatively high.
Maybe Onyenwere to LA for Vadeeva if you think she will be coming back over.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 09/28/21 1:24 pm ::: |
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One of the issues about Rebecca Allen's Liberty future is the cost of bringing her back. Which feeds into the issue of how much she'd play. For 15 minutes off the bench, Allen would surely be a big plus... but that could be a prohibitive cost if you plan to use her for only 15 minutes.
I agree with myrtle that Onyenwere could be traded. If Kolb and Hopkins actually want to get one or two good post players (I believe they need to get two), then almost surely they will need to consider trades. Michaela Onyenwere is an obvious trade chip; the Liberty don't have all that many. I'm NOT advocating trading her, but I wouldn't make her untouchable.
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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