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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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 Posted: 04/04/20 8:37 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Genero36 wrote: |
There has to be a backstory as to why Naismith HoFer Dawn Staley is disrespected so much on this board because RebKell is the only place I see it happening.
Her contemporaries, adversaries, predecessors, successors and mentors admire her. So, I'm probably missing something even if there's no way she should be ahead of Taurasi in any basketball playing poll. |
Most of achievements came outside the W.
If you look strictly at her WNBA career, it's good but not among the all time greats. She never won a WNBA championship and only played in the finals once. She never won any postseason awards other than the Sportsmanship award. She never led the league in anything except turnovers. What did she do in the W to rate among the league's all time greats? |
I was so salty when she made the All-Decade team over Ticha. Comparing their WNBA careers only, it should be Penicheiro; frankly it shouldn't have been close. Staley has one more All-Star appearance, and that's it. Ticha was 3-times All League, 1x All-Defense. Had already led the league in assists six times when the All-Decade team was announced, had already become the all-time assist leader, and had a ring. If it was supposed to be based on their careers in the W, it should have been no contest.
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Silky Johnson
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| Posted: 04/04/20 8:46 pm ::: |
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| Genero36 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
Most of achievements came outside the W.
If you look strictly at her WNBA career, it's good but not among the all time greats. She never won a WNBA championship and only played in the finals once. She never won any postseason awards other than the Sportsmanship award. She never led the league in anything except turnovers. What did she do in the W to rate among the league's all time greats? |
Fair enough but Dawn was never a stat player throughout her pro career (Dawn averaged 9.8 points, 2.4 rebounds and 5.6 assists per game in her 347-game career with the Richmond Rage, Philadelphia Rage, Charlotte Sting and Houston Comets). She was and is a brilliant basketball leader. Her intangibles are among the best ever. |
So, she should be ranked as one of the thirty-two greatest players in WNBA history (8th seed)... because of her intangibles?
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pilight
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| Posted: 04/04/20 8:51 pm ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| Staley's career in the W was towards the end and we really didn't see her at her best except for her first few years in Charlotte. For those around long enough, her best days were in the ABL. |
That doesn't make her one of the best players in WNBA history. Hell, Nancy Lieberman was a tremendous player in her day (better than Staley, IMO). She was the best player on two national championship squads and player enough to make a career out of basketball when there were no leagues for her to play in. That doesn't make her one of the best in WNBA history.
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Genero36
Joined: 24 Apr 2005
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| Posted: 04/04/20 9:05 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
So, she should be ranked as one of the thirty-two greatest players in WNBA history (8th seed)... because of her intangibles? |
It’s a huge factor when you take a look at who’s she’s impacted as a teammate. Nonetheless, I’m not arguing for her ranking. I’m questioning the continuous disrespect thrown her way on Rebkell. There’s something about her name that ignites resentment on this board more than any other name I can remember.
OAN, Ticha received my vote for all-decade. I never considered Dawn for that honor.
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justintyme
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| Posted: 04/04/20 10:03 pm ::: |
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| Genero36 wrote: |
There has to be a backstory as to why Naismith HoFer Dawn Staley is disrespected so much on this board because RebKell is the only place I see it happening.
Her contemporaries, adversaries, predecessors, successors and mentors admire her. So, I'm probably missing something even if there's no way she should be ahead of Taurasi in any basketball playing poll. |
Yeah, I have nothing at all against Dawn Staley. I think she is a tremendous player and was well deserving of her HoF induction.
My only issue was with the poll itself, as at the time I commented Taurasi was only winning 60% to 40%. And as great as I think Staley is, as Richyyy commented earlier, when comparing her WNBA career to Taurasi's in a head-to-head matchup it should take all of 2 seconds to click on the Taurasi button. To try and suggest the other way either takes some serious mental gymnastics to rationalize Taurasi/UConn hate or Carolina fandom...or else just unapologetically embracing Taurasi/UConn hate or Carolina fandom. And while I expected some of that as being the nature of the beast, 40% of the vote seemed...interesting...to me.
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Skyfan22
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| Posted: 04/04/20 10:47 pm ::: |
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| Didn’t vote for any of these, but would totally take Sloot. I’ve been around to have watched both. As for regency, I would have Cooper and Swoopes in my final 4. Won’t berate Yo, but Sloot is a stud. She has persisted beyond superstars forcing their way out and a host of crappy coaches guiding her way. She has elevated the status of Chicago to a dynamic team to watch, but is still easily the best player on that team. They were better this pst year than ever before with a hodgepodge post presence completely due to Sloot’s ability to run that team. She has always made her players way better and yet this past season was #2 in MVP votes.
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justintyme
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| Posted: 04/05/20 12:49 am ::: |
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| Skyfan22 wrote: |
| Didn’t vote for any of these, but would totally take Sloot. I’ve been around to have watched both. As for regency, I would have Cooper and Swoopes in my final 4. Won’t berate Yo, but Sloot is a stud. She has persisted beyond superstars forcing their way out and a host of crappy coaches guiding her way. She has elevated the status of Chicago to a dynamic team to watch, but is still easily the best player on that team. They were better this pst year than ever before with a hodgepodge post presence completely due to Sloot’s ability to run that team. She has always made her players way better and yet this past season was #2 in MVP votes. |
Yes. But she has only played at that level for two years. Before she can dethrone established GOATS she needs to maintain that level of play over a long period of time.
What happens if she falls off dramatically next season and never again reaches the heights that she did this last year? Would we look at her at the end of her career and rank her ahead of Yo? Or are we ranking her ahead of Yo right now because we are assuming that she will continue on a certain trajectory and that assumed career would be better than Yo's?
Because if people are doing the latter, that's not really the way this should be working. You can't make assumptions for things that haven't happened yet.
Sloot was #2 in MVP voting. Yo won the MVP and played at a high level for many, many season. Enough seasons to be considered one of the greatest rebounders and defensive players in women's basketball history.
Sloot may eventually be considered on of the best 8n women's basketball history at something, in fact, if she keeps up her trajectory it may even be likely. But so many things can happen, from injuries to sudden and shocking declines, so she'll have to prove it by maintaining that level of play for some time yet before she can compete against someone like Yo on an "all time" list.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 04/05/20 9:03 am ::: |
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| Skyfan22 wrote: |
| Didn’t vote for any of these, but would totally take Sloot. I’ve been around to have watched both. As for regency, I would have Cooper and Swoopes in my final 4. Won’t berate Yo, but Sloot is a stud. She has persisted beyond superstars forcing their way out and a host of crappy coaches guiding her way. She has elevated the status of Chicago to a dynamic team to watch, but is still easily the best player on that team. They were better this pst year than ever before with a hodgepodge post presence completely due to Sloot’s ability to run that team. She has always made her players way better and yet this past season was #2 in MVP votes. |
How many times did you see Yolanda Griffith play? Sloot is a wonderful player, a great story, but Griffith was special. That said, it was hard to really appreciate Yo without seeing her a lot, as she didn't score a lot, but as you watched her, you realized the game rotated around her.
Of course, Griffith was not approachable, a lousy interview and played in Sacramento (which is on the map right next to "Here Be Dragons").
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pilight
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| Posted: 04/05/20 9:29 am ::: |
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Sloot has led the league in assists four times. That's more than Bird or Whalen. She's already 6th in league history in assists.
| Quote: |
| Yo won the MVP and played at a high level for many, many season |
Not that many. She had about 3 1/2 seasons of MVP candidate play.
OTOH...
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| Sloot was #2 in MVP voting |
She really wasn't. She got a couple of first place votes, but finished 6th in the balloting. OTOOH, point guards don't do well in WNBA MVP voting. The voters seem to have internalized Sue Bird's mantra that point guards don't win MVP, they make their teammate MVP. Judging Sloot on that basis may be unfair.
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jap
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| Posted: 04/05/20 11:06 am ::: |
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| Genero36 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
Most of achievements came outside the W.
If you look strictly at her WNBA career, it's good but not among the all time greats. She never won a WNBA championship and only played in the finals once. She never won any postseason awards other than the Sportsmanship award. She never led the league in anything except turnovers. What did she do in the W to rate among the league's all time greats? |
Fair enough but Dawn was never a stat player throughout her pro career (Dawn averaged 9.8 points, 2.4 rebounds and 5.6 assists per game in her 347-game career with the Richmond Rage, Philadelphia Rage, Charlotte Sting and Houston Comets). She was and is a brilliant basketball leader. Her intangibles are among the best ever. |
This was my understanding as well. She was regarded by many as being a coach on the court. She was also supposed to be extremely funny. In tense game moments the ability of a player leader or coach to ease tensions with humor is often vastly underrated. As has been well chronicled many times before in various places, stats do not measure everything important.
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justintyme
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| Posted: 04/05/20 11:09 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
Sloot has led the league in assists four times. That's more than Bird or Whalen. She's already 6th in league history in assists.
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This right here is the issue. The need to qualify. If Sloot stopped playing today, and the entirety of her resume was what we have, would anyone seriously make the case that she should be ranked higher than Yo on an "all-time" list?
Yes, she has led the league more than Whalen and Bird...who both competed against each other, Penicheiro, and Hammon for most of their careers. So that stat is a little misleading when you factor in the number of top 2/3 finishes. Not to mention Whalen had 660 more assists than her and Bird has over 1140! And both were/are seen as bigger offensive threats throughout their careers than Sloot.
So lets put this in perspective. Right now Sloot is comparable in assists to Cappie Pondexter without having had anywhere close to Cappies' offensive career as of yet. And Yo should beat Cappie hands down in a head-to-head "GOAT" matchup.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 04/05/20 11:22 am ::: |
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| I do wonder if Sloot would have had a ring now if Delle Donne & Fowles opted to stay in Chicago.
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pilight
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toad455
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| Posted: 04/05/20 11:44 am ::: |
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Delle Donne vs. Whalen was a tough pick.
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WNBA 09
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| Posted: 04/05/20 1:29 pm ::: |
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| BG vs Mone on upset alert 52/48% In favor of BG at the moment.
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pilight
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| Posted: 04/05/20 1:50 pm ::: |
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| I voted Griner. It's not much of an upset.
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WNBA 09
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| Posted: 04/05/20 3:07 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| I voted Griner. It's not much of an upset. |
Ouuuch ....I voted Griner as well unfortunately.
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justintyme
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| Posted: 04/05/20 7:15 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| I voted Griner. It's not much of an upset. |
I agree that this could go either way without it being a terrible upset.
But it also solidifies my point about Yo and Sloot through the transitive property, since:
Given:
Yo > BG and Mone > Sloot
If BG > Mone, then Yo must be > Sloot
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pilight
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| Posted: 04/05/20 9:07 pm ::: |
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| I would rate Griner ahead of Griffith
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Genero36
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| Posted: 04/05/20 9:33 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| I would rate Griner ahead of Griffith |
Interesting. I don’t know if I’m there yet with BG. Her upside has always been that she should be greater than a player like Yolanda was but I don’t know if she’s actually fulfilled her potential. If she came to play like Yolanda did night after night, BG would easily be top three in league history.
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Richyyy
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| Posted: 04/05/20 9:53 pm ::: |
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Thing is, I tend to agree that Griner isn't everything she could be - just look at our regular discussions of her poor rebounding, for example - but sometimes we allow that to overshadow how effective/productive she is regardless of that. Put Griffith's motor inside her and you've probably got the best player in the history of the game once she's done (almost certainly the best pure post); but even with her own she's been pretty damn good.
Griffith basically had eight very good-to-elite seasons, Griner's had seven. I don't think it's too hard to argue it either way. |
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/05/20 10:50 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
Thing is, I tend to agree that Griner isn't everything she could be - just look at our regular discussions of her poor rebounding, for example - but sometimes we allow that to overshadow how effective/productive she is regardless of that. Put Griffith's motor inside her and you've probably got the best player in the history of the game once she's done (almost certainly the best pure post); but even with her own she's been pretty damn good.
Griffith basically had eight very good-to-elite seasons, Griner's had seven. I don't think it's too hard to argue it either way. |
It's tough. Griffith is one of those players who always feels like more than sum of her parts, which Griner feels like she is less than the sum of hers. It might be fair, and it probably isn't even accurate, but it shifts perception.
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justintyme
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| Posted: 04/05/20 11:32 pm ::: |
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| Seeing as though Griner doesn't have an MVP and Griffith does (and they play the same position so we can't use a "that position is overlooked by MVP voters excuse), I find it hard to give any sort of an edge to Griner in a matchup between those two. And part of a "GOAT" is playing up to your potential. The adjective "disappointing" shouldn't come to mind, and the more it does the further a player should slide down the rankings.
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pilight
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| Posted: 04/06/20 7:32 am ::: |
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| Griner is much more of an offensive threat than Griffith ever was. She's led the league in scoring multiple times!
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ClayK
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| Posted: 04/06/20 8:35 am ::: |
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The Griner/Griffith comparison is interesting, as they are completely different players at the same position who can just take over.
Though I'm a big Yo fan, I'll go with Griner because you decide who wins the game by who scores the most points, and Griner is better at that part of it.
Very close call, either way ...
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