| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
calbearman76
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 5167
Location: Carson City
Back to top |
 Posted: 08/05/18 1:08 am ::: |
Reply  |
|
It is 10PM on Saturday night and I have nothing better to do so I will take one more swing at this.
I have nothing against Ms. Peters. My first post merely said that I thought it would be better for her to not let this get to her. People say things. If people I don't know say things that are stupid I generally ignore them, not only for the stupid thing they just said but for anything else they might say because they have already said something stupid. There are enough people on this earth that I choose to primarily deal with those I respect (which includes most of the people on this board.) I guess that was taken as not taking her seriously, but that is not what I said or meant.
In my second post I used the word "whining" because that is how it came off to me. All of us whine every so often, some more than others. I don't know Ms. Peters and never said that she constantly whines or that she never has the right to speak up about injustice in whatever form. But when we complain about things to no real end and it isn't a good look for anyone.
In my third post I returned to the theme that she shouldn't let it get to her.
Not once did I ever disrespect her abilities or her profession. I have great respect for all the players in the WNBA and for those who played in college but weren't quite good enough for the League. I wouldn't be on this board if I didn't. And yet it seems that just because I suggested that she should would be better off if she didn't let some people challenging her to a game of 1 on 1 get under her skin, I was cast as a villain.
I am against misogyny in all of its forms and have fought against it. I have spoken with friends about the WNBA (and WBB in general) and taken some to games. I have forcefully stood up for women who were belittled because of their gender (e.g., female professionals who were assumed to be secretaries). I have dealt with inappropriate jokes in the workplace because they could offend some female staff, even though none had specifically complained. And I had a high percentage of female professionals working for me. I believe that was because I was able to see the skills they had when perhaps other people didn't. And those women helped me to be quite successful.
But if you want to fight misogyny I believe it would be far more helpful to discuss more significant examples of the problem (which certainly do exist.) To me this article focuses on a minor annoyance when there are far more substantive examples that deserve focus. It can easily be read as "if this is all she has to complain about, than things must be pretty good."
So let me ask sincerely to anyone who chooses to answer. What would you have me do? What would be the proper takeaway from Ms. Peters' column? I will consider all of them. But please realize that I did not dismiss Peters' experiences, or misogyny in general, though it seems some people think I did.
|
|
Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 5065
Location: New York City
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 1:41 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| What would I have you do? Stop with these callous posts and instead spend the time reading feminist literature, watching feminist videos, and attending feminist lectures. Just using the word "whining" the way you did vividly demonstrates that you don't have a clue.
_________________
Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
|
|
PickledGinger
Joined: 04 Oct 2013
Posts: 1380
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 3:54 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| calbearman76 wrote: |
| In my third post I returned to the theme that she shouldn't let it get to her. |
Yes she absofuckinglutely should let it get to her because it's disrespectful and wrong and men don't have the right to elevate themselves by depreciating superior women and if she doesn't speak up nothing is going to change and that's all kind of the entire point of protest.
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11232
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 10:23 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| Luuuc wrote: |
Thanks for your contributions to this thread, justinabina.
I too am a bit disheartened because I thought that this board of all places would be much more in tune with this issue. I don't feel particularly comfortable speaking on it and was hoping for some female voices here.
What Peters is describing is just one small element of a much bigger problem. I thought that was kinda obvious but I guess not. I also thought that hearing a player's perspective on things would be insightful and maybe a bit eye-opening but maybe I judged that incorrectly. |
I agree ... but you do have to pick your battles. This is shaky ground, I think, from which to question our patriarchal system and the global oppression of women. Something like this just sounds petty, and it's easy for someone in the middle to think "Well, if this is all it is, it's not a big deal."
I don't want to deny Peters her feelings, but as the recent tweets from male athletes (from long ago) show, everything is public and won't go away. And your point about being a small part of a much bigger problem is right on, but I think it's too small to really matter -- it's sort of like if WNBA players complained that the water bottles on their bench weren't as big as those for NBA players, and that had to be fixed right away.
_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 5065
Location: New York City
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 10:35 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ClayK wrote: |
| Luuuc wrote: |
Thanks for your contributions to this thread, justinabina.
I too am a bit disheartened because I thought that this board of all places would be much more in tune with this issue. I don't feel particularly comfortable speaking on it and was hoping for some female voices here.
What Peters is describing is just one small element of a much bigger problem. I thought that was kinda obvious but I guess not. I also thought that hearing a player's perspective on things would be insightful and maybe a bit eye-opening but maybe I judged that incorrectly. |
I agree ... but you do have to pick your battles. This is shaky ground, I think, from which to question our patriarchal system and the global oppression of women. Something like this just sounds petty, and it's easy for someone in the middle to think "Well, if this is all it is, it's not a big deal."
I don't want to deny Peters her feelings, but as the recent tweets from male athletes (from long ago) show, everything is public and won't go away. And your point about being a small part of a much bigger problem is right on, but I think it's too small to really matter -- it's sort of like if WNBA players complained that the water bottles on their bench weren't as big as those for NBA players, and that had to be fixed right away. |
Who are you to decide for women what is "too small to really matter"? This is a textbook example of male privilege.
_________________
Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11232
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 10:40 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| Luuuc wrote: |
Thanks for your contributions to this thread, justinabina.
I too am a bit disheartened because I thought that this board of all places would be much more in tune with this issue. I don't feel particularly comfortable speaking on it and was hoping for some female voices here.
What Peters is describing is just one small element of a much bigger problem. I thought that was kinda obvious but I guess not. I also thought that hearing a player's perspective on things would be insightful and maybe a bit eye-opening but maybe I judged that incorrectly. |
I agree ... but you do have to pick your battles. This is shaky ground, I think, from which to question our patriarchal system and the global oppression of women. Something like this just sounds petty, and it's easy for someone in the middle to think "Well, if this is all it is, it's not a big deal."
I don't want to deny Peters her feelings, but as the recent tweets from male athletes (from long ago) show, everything is public and won't go away. And your point about being a small part of a much bigger problem is right on, but I think it's too small to really matter -- it's sort of like if WNBA players complained that the water bottles on their bench weren't as big as those for NBA players, and that had to be fixed right away. |
Really callous, Clay. Who are you to decide for women what is "too small to really matter"? But how gracious that you "don't want to deny Peters her feelilngs"? I'm sure she'll be thrilled if she reads that. |
Of course ... but the tweet was public and becomes part of the public discourse. There's a difference between complaining to your friends and making a public statement, and that's what I'm referring to. It obviously matters to her, but does it matter to those who are trying to understand the ways in which our society degrades the contributions of women?
_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 5065
Location: New York City
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 10:41 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ClayK wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| Luuuc wrote: |
Thanks for your contributions to this thread, justinabina.
I too am a bit disheartened because I thought that this board of all places would be much more in tune with this issue. I don't feel particularly comfortable speaking on it and was hoping for some female voices here.
What Peters is describing is just one small element of a much bigger problem. I thought that was kinda obvious but I guess not. I also thought that hearing a player's perspective on things would be insightful and maybe a bit eye-opening but maybe I judged that incorrectly. |
I agree ... but you do have to pick your battles. This is shaky ground, I think, from which to question our patriarchal system and the global oppression of women. Something like this just sounds petty, and it's easy for someone in the middle to think "Well, if this is all it is, it's not a big deal."
I don't want to deny Peters her feelings, but as the recent tweets from male athletes (from long ago) show, everything is public and won't go away. And your point about being a small part of a much bigger problem is right on, but I think it's too small to really matter -- it's sort of like if WNBA players complained that the water bottles on their bench weren't as big as those for NBA players, and that had to be fixed right away. |
Really callous, Clay. Who are you to decide for women what is "too small to really matter"? But how gracious that you "don't want to deny Peters her feelilngs"? I'm sure she'll be thrilled if she reads that. |
Of course ... but the tweet was public and becomes part of the public discourse. There's a difference between complaining to your friends and making a public statement, and that's what I'm referring to. It obviously matters to her, but does it matter to those who are trying to understand the ways in which our society degrades the contributions of women? |
I amended my statement just above. I'll say again: your comments are a textbook example of male privilege.
_________________
Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
|
|
calbearman76
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 5167
Location: Carson City
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 12:54 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I finally get it. Women are having their children taken from them by our government just because they are trying to make a better life for themselves. People are being shot by the police for no reason other than the color of their skin. Men are allowed to physically abuse women and maintain the support of our president and Chief of Staff while they work at the White House. But the real crime is some men (who presumably have no position of power over her) approaching a woman and asking her to play a game.
Speak out about real injustice and I will take you very seriously. I will even take actions when I can make a difference (and sometimes even when I can't.) But speak out about personal interactions that can be easily resolved by walking away (please note she wasn't complaining about someone with direct power over her, just numerous encounters with random people who, based upon what she said, weren't worth her time) and I will suggest that while annoying, you are better served by focusing your efforts on more important issues. I never once said the jerks were right or that she shouldn't be annoyed. And it wouldn't matter whether you were male or female, black or white, young or old, I would give anyone the same advice. And oh yes, when I get annoyed about something minor (maybe because there are more important issues that I don't want to deal with directly) I would hope that my friends would give me the same advice.
|
|
justinabina
Joined: 19 May 2014
Posts: 162
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 1:19 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| calbearman76 wrote: |
I finally get it. Women are having their children taken from them by our government just because they are trying to make a better life for themselves. People are being shot by the police for no reason other than the color of their skin. Men are allowed to physically abuse women and maintain the support of our president and Chief of Staff while they work at the White House. But the real crime is some men (who presumably have no position of power over her) approaching a woman and asking her to play a game.
Speak out about real injustice and I will take you very seriously. |
I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested that Peters is suffering more than other women or other marginalized people, and I don't think anyone, apart from yourself, has indicated that there is a hierarchy of injustices.
I don't know why a person can't take seriously both Peters' article - which describes interactions that are not physically harmful, but are constant and tiring - and the injustices you've outlined in your first paragraph.
The point I think Peters is making is that she CAN'T walk away from these comments, because they have happened throughout her basketball-playing life.
Imagine a part of your identity that you can't ever change is constantly being belittled. That you're not taken seriously in your job by multiple people simply because of your gender.
Wouldn't you want to speak out about that?
|
|
justinabina
Joined: 19 May 2014
Posts: 162
Back to top |
|
GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 14127
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 1:39 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
This article wasn't written by a woman that plays basketball on the weekends or plays in night time rec league games, this is a professional basketball player who is having her chosen career trivialized by people who believe women can't be as good at basketball as a man, any man. I don't understand how people can just say she is whining or overreacting.
As far ignoring it goes, it's kinda hard to do when a guy goes up to you in a person and says it. And it can be easier on social media, but if you want to interact with fans you have to read through all of them because that's the only way you would know whats good and whats bad, and to constantly read your profession being belittled can't be easy.
In the last week I must have read at least 20 comments on my timeline about the WNBA being soft, the players can't play real basketball, they should go back to the kitchen and stop complaining about money, and I'm not a WNBA player or female basketball player, I can't imagine how many comments are directed towards them and how many they have to read on a daily basis.
|
|
Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 5065
Location: New York City
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 2:08 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
It is so offensive to watch two men go on and on defending their callous sexism. Telling Ms. Peters (and, therefore, all women) how they should and shouldn't feel, what should and shouldn't be upsetting to women, what does or doesn't qualify as "real injustice," and what women should or shouldn't challenge in person and/or in print. Such endless arrogance.
It's obvious that Ms. Peters' feelings and words mean nothing to these two men. And that the words of their critics here, some of whom surely are women, mean nothing to these two men.
_________________
Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11232
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 3:09 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
It is so offensive to watch two men go on and on defending their callous sexism. Telling Ms. Peters (and, therefore, all women) how they should and shouldn't feel, what should and shouldn't be upsetting to women, what does or doesn't qualify as "real injustice," and what women should or shouldn't challenge in person and/or in print. Such endless arrogance.
It's obvious that Ms. Peters' feelings and words mean nothing to these two men. And that the words of their critics here, some of whom surely are women, mean nothing to these two men. |
I felt I was engaging in a discussion in which it was possible to have an opinion. That is apparently not the case, as my opinion is relegated to irrelevance by male privilege.
It makes it difficult to have a dialog when only one side is allowed to speak -- of course, women and others were denied, and are still denied in many cases, the opportunity to speak, but putting the shoe on the other foot does not improve the chances of communication.
_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
calbearman76
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 5167
Location: Carson City
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 3:55 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ClayK wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
It is so offensive to watch two men go on and on defending their callous sexism. Telling Ms. Peters (and, therefore, all women) how they should and shouldn't feel, what should and shouldn't be upsetting to women, what does or doesn't qualify as "real injustice," and what women should or shouldn't challenge in person and/or in print. Such endless arrogance.
It's obvious that Ms. Peters' feelings and words mean nothing to these two men. And that the words of their critics here, some of whom surely are women, mean nothing to these two men. |
I felt I was engaging in a discussion in which it was possible to have an opinion. That is apparently not the case, as my opinion is relegated to irrelevance by male privilege.
It makes it difficult to have a dialog when only one side is allowed to speak -- of course, women and others were denied, and are still denied in many cases, the opportunity to speak, but putting the shoe on the other foot does not improve the chances of communication. |
Agree 100%. If Clay and me are seen as the problem then you have truly missed the point. That is a shame because there is so much need for real change. Clay has spent many, many years supporting women's basketball both as a coach and as a writer. I am a true fan who has supported the game in ways that very few people, particularly heterosexual males. do. If you can't even listen to a nuanced response that isn't 100% women are always right and men are always pigs that is a shame.
|
|
mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 19848
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 5:13 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ClayK wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
It is so offensive to watch two men go on and on defending their callous sexism. Telling Ms. Peters (and, therefore, all women) how they should and shouldn't feel, what should and shouldn't be upsetting to women, what does or doesn't qualify as "real injustice," and what women should or shouldn't challenge in person and/or in print. Such endless arrogance.
It's obvious that Ms. Peters' feelings and words mean nothing to these two men. And that the words of their critics here, some of whom surely are women, mean nothing to these two men. |
I felt I was engaging in a discussion in which it was possible to have an opinion. That is apparently not the case, as my opinion is relegated to irrelevance by male privilege.
It makes it difficult to have a dialog when only one side is allowed to speak -- of course, women and others were denied, and are still denied in many cases, the opportunity to speak, but putting the shoe on the other foot does not improve the chances of communication. |
But here is the thing.
Women are telling you that what has been called insignificant, is in fact significant.
Part of the problem women have always faced is that when they express their concern, they are told it isn’t a big problem or they aren’t listened too at all.
Men have been the only voices in the room forever. It’s time to listen. If you don’t understand why something is significant, ask. But telling women it isn’t significant is insulting.
_________________
“Anyone point out that a Donald Trump anagram is ‘Lord Dampnut’”- Colin Mochrie
|
|
Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 21999
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 7:04 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ClayK wrote: |
| Luuuc wrote: |
Thanks for your contributions to this thread, justinabina.
I too am a bit disheartened because I thought that this board of all places would be much more in tune with this issue. I don't feel particularly comfortable speaking on it and was hoping for some female voices here.
What Peters is describing is just one small element of a much bigger problem. I thought that was kinda obvious but I guess not. I also thought that hearing a player's perspective on things would be insightful and maybe a bit eye-opening but maybe I judged that incorrectly. |
I agree ... but you do have to pick your battles. This is shaky ground, I think, from which to question our patriarchal system and the global oppression of women. Something like this just sounds petty, and it's easy for someone in the middle to think "Well, if this is all it is, it's not a big deal."
I don't want to deny Peters her feelings, but as the recent tweets from male athletes (from long ago) show, everything is public and won't go away. And your point about being a small part of a much bigger problem is right on, but I think it's too small to really matter -- it's sort of like if WNBA players complained that the water bottles on their bench weren't as big as those for NBA players, and that had to be fixed right away. |
Keep in mind that this article started off as a series of tweets about one particular thing that was on her mind at some point in time. Someone saw it and asked her to make it into something that could be published.
It's just a small look into one little aspect of the life of a WNBA player.
So personally I thought it was a nice little insight. I didn't interpret it at all like "this is my main problem in life, my life is so hard because of it"
_________________
Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11232
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 9:20 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
It is so offensive to watch two men go on and on defending their callous sexism. Telling Ms. Peters (and, therefore, all women) how they should and shouldn't feel, what should and shouldn't be upsetting to women, what does or doesn't qualify as "real injustice," and what women should or shouldn't challenge in person and/or in print. Such endless arrogance.
It's obvious that Ms. Peters' feelings and words mean nothing to these two men. And that the words of their critics here, some of whom surely are women, mean nothing to these two men. |
I felt I was engaging in a discussion in which it was possible to have an opinion. That is apparently not the case, as my opinion is relegated to irrelevance by male privilege.
It makes it difficult to have a dialog when only one side is allowed to speak -- of course, women and others were denied, and are still denied in many cases, the opportunity to speak, but putting the shoe on the other foot does not improve the chances of communication. |
But here is the thing.
Women are telling you that what has been called insignificant, is in fact significant.
Part of the problem women have always faced is that when they express their concern, they are told it isn’t a big problem or they aren’t listened too at all.
Men have been the only voices in the room forever. It’s time to listen. If you don’t understand why something is significant, ask. But telling women it isn’t significant is insulting. |
So from my male perspective, I have listened to Peters' point (I feel), and disagreed.
Other people, apparently all women (I don't keep track of genders on here), have said that Peters is correct and that disagreement merely proves that I embody male privilege and don't listen.
This seems to me to be a deeper issue than Peters' tweets. At what point are men no longer allowed to comment? I mean this seriously, as I have no desire to offend people on this platform. But, from my male position, I did not feel I was discounting Peters' feelings, rather the public perception of those feelings.
I certainly could be wrong about the public perception, but I don't see that as male privilege taking over the conversation. But maybe it is ... how can I tell when I'm crossing a line in these kinds of situations? And again, this is not a facetious question. At what point do Peters' personal feelings about being approached to play one-on-one become an issue that cannot be discussed by males (or at least straight males)?
And by extension, is it possible that discussion of the WNBA, a league dominated by lesbian women of color, is something I should refrain from as well?
_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 21999
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 9:25 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Please keep commenting, Clay. As long as discussions stay on the rails there's no reason not to hear different perspectives on these issues. I can't say I agree with you on this one but I am still interested to hear your take on it because it is one I wasn't expecting.
_________________
Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
|
|
sigur3
Joined: 18 Jun 2013
Posts: 6191
Location: Chicago-ish
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 9:35 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
It might not qualify as an "assault," but it absolutely qualifies as a microaggression. And people's opinions of how bothersome microaggressions are tend to be informed by how often they have to deal with them.
RE: not knowing other people's motives, of course you can't. None of us can read minds. But, as I said already, you appear to be way more disposed to giving the benefit of the doubt that I am. |
This post is absolutely 100% spot-on.
|
|
NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 14097
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 9:55 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| For those who disagree with Peters’ public expression, I’d say speaking publicly is actually very beneficial in terms of being informative. This type of disrespect against her SHOULD be discussed in the hope that bringing it to light can help to create change. And that’s how it should be.
_________________
The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
|
|
Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 5065
Location: New York City
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 10:05 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Just to clarify something mentioned above, I am the person who spoke of Clay's comments as a textbook case of male privilege. I am a 71-year-old white, Jewish, heterosexual man.
_________________
Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
|
|
justinabina
Joined: 19 May 2014
Posts: 162
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/05/18 10:21 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ClayK wrote: |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
But here is the thing.
Women are telling you that what has been called insignificant, is in fact significant.
Part of the problem women have always faced is that when they express their concern, they are told it isn’t a big problem or they aren’t listened too at all.
Men have been the only voices in the room forever. It’s time to listen. If you don’t understand why something is significant, ask. But telling women it isn’t significant is insulting. |
So from my male perspective, I have listened to Peters' point (I feel), and disagreed.
Other people, apparently all women (I don't keep track of genders on here), have said that Peters is correct and that disagreement merely proves that I embody male privilege and don't listen.
This seems to me to be a deeper issue than Peters' tweets. At what point are men no longer allowed to comment? I mean this seriously, as I have no desire to offend people on this platform. But, from my male position, I did not feel I was discounting Peters' feelings, rather the public perception of those feelings.
I certainly could be wrong about the public perception, but I don't see that as male privilege taking over the conversation. But maybe it is ... how can I tell when I'm crossing a line in these kinds of situations? And again, this is not a facetious question. At what point do Peters' personal feelings about being approached to play one-on-one become an issue that cannot be discussed by males (or at least straight males)?
And by extension, is it possible that discussion of the WNBA, a league dominated by lesbian women of color, is something I should refrain from as well? |
I think mercfan3 has hit the nail on the head with their final statement - "If you don’t understand why something is significant, ask. But telling women it isn’t significant is insulting."
ClayK and calbearman76, I hope you don't only take away from this discussion disappointment or frustration about having male privilege pointed out. There are many great points in the thread brought up by several users that didn't get addressed. I always appreciate reading your posts about basketball because I find them thoughtful, measured and informative - and so I was engaged in this discussion because I had high hopes that I (or someone else) might convince you that Peters' article is not merely whining or complaining, but is voicing a frustration with male attitudes that are connected to wider spread misogyny - and that other players have also voiced (check out some of the rookies' comments on Twitter about the hateful comments they've started to notice and/or receive).
It seems that we haven't convinced you, but I hope you still might consider how valuable it can be to have male fans of the women's game be supportive of players when they voice concerns or frustrations (even if lightheartedly!) like Peters.
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11232
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/06/18 10:28 am ::: |
Reply |
|
No question misogyny is widespread and no question some of those who approach Peters and others are misogynistic. As a coach of women's and girls' sports since the '70s, the misogynists have approached me as well.
But there are those who ask questions, who are interested, who are not misogynistic, and are genuinely curious.
Telling the difference between the two groups is obviously not easy, though sometimes it's clear from the approach, but I've always felt that honest communication about the strengths and weaknesses of women's basketball is the best way to overcome ignorance and help those who are capable of respecting female athletes to do so.
If that is embodying male privilege, then so be it ... I'm a year younger than Bob so maybe in 12 months I'll see his point of view more clearly. Right now, however, I still believe discussion is better than silence.
_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
Posts: 3396
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/06/18 11:10 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ClayK wrote: |
No question misogyny is widespread and no question some of those who approach Peters and others are misogynistic. As a coach of women's and girls' sports since the '70s, the misogynists have approached me as well.
But there are those who ask questions, who are interested, who are not misogynistic, and are genuinely curious. |
There may be truth to this, but I still find two problems with it: the first being, IMO, you appear to think that there are way more people who are "genuinely" curious than there actually are. Like, you talk about it like you think that the ratio of genuinely curious people to ain't-shit people who bother women athletes is close to 1:1, when the actual ratio is probably closer to 1:1000.
The second problem I have with it, to borrow (and probably misuse) an old baseball expression, tie goes to the runner. I am always going to give more benefit of the doubt, and have more empathy for the athlete who has to answer those questions a hundred times a day, than I am for the maybe/maybe-not "innocent" question asker. If only because of Occam's Razor: all things being equal, the likeliest explanation (again, IMO) is that the person asking questions is not asking out of genuine curiosity.
_________________
Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
My team no longer exists, so I'll have to settle for hating yours.
|
|
Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 5065
Location: New York City
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/06/18 12:04 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Discussion vs. silence is obviously a false choice.
Peters engaged in "discussion": she wrote an article and (admirably) expressed her feelings. But some here have criticized her for doing so.
Challenging sexism and male privilege is also "discussion" as long as it is done verbally rather than violently. .
_________________
Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
|
|
|
|
).