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Sass
Joined: 22 Mar 2005
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RedEqualsLuck
Joined: 28 May 2005
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 Posted: 10/26/05 11:43 pm ::: |
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downsouthchica wrote:
I am only 15 and I looked up to Sheryl Swoopes alot but now I really dont understand what to think about her coming out because parent and other people really dont want me to be looking up to a gay basketball player I mean being that im straight and I idolized her as much as I hate 2 admit it the way I looked at her will never be the same and I cant help it but hey atleast she was woman enought to admit it ya know
consider taking some time to figure out what you think. There's a lot to digest here for you -- and youre right, she WAS woman enough to "admit" it (uncomfortable with that word). Is being true to yourself, standing up and speaking out against injustice something you admire?
consider taking some time to read all the articles (Voepel in particular) and look at the situtation from various angles.
consider why you idolized Swoopes - was it for the quality of her game? the quality of her person? Or was it for the kind of person she fell in love with?
consider why you would let anyone - parents or otherwise - tell you who to look up to?
consider how you might deal with a friend who might be struggling with their sexuality.
basically, take your time and consider....
_________________
When Jefferson wrote: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal," he didn't include the word "except."
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mandih23
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 2159
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: 10/26/05 11:47 pm ::: |
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| downsouthchica wrote: |
| I am only 15 and I looked up to Sheryl Swoopes alot but now I really dont understand what to think about her coming out because parent and other people really dont want me to be looking up to a gay basketball player I mean being that im straight and I idolized her as much as I hate 2 admit it the way I looked at her will never be the same and I cant help it but hey atleast she was woman enought to admit it ya know |
I apologize if this sounds cruel:
Unless you idolized Sheryl's heterosexual bedroom tactics not much has changed....
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 10/27/05 12:05 am ::: |
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One thing I would like to say is this, and I am quite sure I speak for Reb and 99% of everyone else. If you're an adult (over 18 years of age) please go VERY easy on people who openly declare themselves to be minors on this board.
 _________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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sambista
Joined: 25 Sep 2004
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Location: way station of life
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| Posted: 10/27/05 12:08 am ::: |
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| i agree.
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no justice, no peace.
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Keegan
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 6861
Location: The Cathedral of Snark
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| Posted: 10/27/05 12:28 am ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| One thing I would like to say is this, and I am quite sure I speak for Reb and 99% of everyone else. If you're an adult (over 18 years of age) please go VERY easy on people who openly declare themselves to be minors on this board. |
As an ex-minor *snerk* who in my mid-teens was posting on message boards who had a predominantly adult crowd, I think this is a bunch of crap. If you can post it, you better be able to take the good and the bad. People shouldn't be victimised because of their age but if they post something you disagree with vehemently, you should let them know. |
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mandih23
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 2159
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: 10/27/05 12:32 am ::: |
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| Keegan wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| One thing I would like to say is this, and I am quite sure I speak for Reb and 99% of everyone else. If you're an adult (over 18 years of age) please go VERY easy on people who openly declare themselves to be minors on this board. |
As an ex-minor *snerk* who in my mid-teens was posting on message boards who had a predominantly adult crowd, I think this is a bunch of crap. If you can post it, you better be able to take the good and the bad. People shouldn't be victimised because of their age but if they post something you disagree with vehemently, you should let them know. |
I agree. but I do want to clarify that my post was not meant to personally attack, just to get my point across!
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sparkfan33
Joined: 24 Sep 2004
Posts: 679
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| Posted: 10/27/05 1:51 am ::: |
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| Rothum wrote: |
| StaleyFan wrote: |
| I'm not trying to start a war here. I'm just stating my opinion like you did yours. As far as I go, The Bible speaks against homosexuality, and I certainly believe that. Like I said, that's MY belief, and while I wish and pray more people felt that way, I know better and still have to respect their opinion. As far as the media, I was trying to say what is the backlash going to be in the present that all the haters will be jumping on, such as saying that this league will fail because of it or that they knew everyone in women's basketball was gay. In other words, will they hate this sport even more now? |
As one who was trained as a minister, and one who has left the church because of its inability to accept and love people the way Jesus teaches, Leviticus also says slavery is ok, touching the skin of a pig rates a hire punishment then homosexuality (I wonder why we put up with those who play football), and that women are to remain silent. Lets not forget shellfish, and the whole mixing of cheese and meat thing. All of which rate the "abomination to the Lord" comment.
Since this is about basketball I suggest we leave religious faith out of the conversation. |
Amen. This is about Women's Professional Basketball and Bringing Your Whole Self to whatever work environment you live in.
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threefrom60
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 2576
Location: Olympia, WA
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| Posted: 10/27/05 2:04 am ::: |
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| Keegan wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| One thing I would like to say is this, and I am quite sure I speak for Reb and 99% of everyone else. If you're an adult (over 18 years of age) please go VERY easy on people who openly declare themselves to be minors on this board. |
As an ex-minor *snerk* who in my mid-teens was posting on message boards who had a predominantly adult crowd, I think this is a bunch of crap. If you can post it, you better be able to take the good and the bad. People shouldn't be victimised because of their age but if they post something you disagree with vehemently, you should let them know. |
I have to agree with Keegan based on my personal experience - I was once a 15 year old posting on predominantly adult occupied message boards too, and if you can write it, you better be able to read it too. However I agree with Jammer wholeheartedly on a legal standpoint. I love this place too much to see some punk start some shit and cause us any problems, legal problems, troll problems, or otherwise.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 10/27/05 2:41 am ::: |
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| Keegan wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| One thing I would like to say is this, and I am quite sure I speak for Reb and 99% of everyone else. If you're an adult (over 18 years of age) please go VERY easy on people who openly declare themselves to be minors on this board. |
As an ex-minor *snerk* who in my mid-teens was posting on message boards who had a predominantly adult crowd, I think this is a bunch of crap. If you can post it, you better be able to take the good and the bad. People shouldn't be victimised because of their age but if they post something you disagree with vehemently, you should let them know. |
I'm talking about abuse. An adult (and we have no way of knowing) calling ignorant or stupid someone who has given their age and is by legal and practical definition a child. I'm talking about a hectoring tone and cursing and threatening language. I'm not talking about simple or even vehement disagreement.
And dude you were scaring adults on the boards when you were 15.  You're atypical, to say the least._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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hooper1
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 10/27/05 2:44 am ::: |
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"hectoring tone and cursing and threatening language..."
Perhaps we can avoid this altogether... even towards the other adults!
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ddubdawg
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 1905
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: 10/27/05 2:58 am ::: |
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I would love for there to be a huge amount of "backlash" over Swoopes' coming out, unfortunately, I think it will be a hot topic for a very short time and will be brought up again around the end of next April when training camps start up again. I love it if she were just the first drop of a flood, but she is in a unique situation as one of the best players currently and arguably the best women's player ever, to be the person that she is and to be true to her heart.
On the lighter side, perhaps if more players came out, and I will say that I do not think that the league is dominated by gay players, more straight men might actually become more interested. No, wait, that's too scary, I don't want to share my gals with those goons. Derek
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 10/27/05 3:34 am ::: |
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I don't LIKE the New York Times piece today, except for the pictures and quotes by Swoopes, because it touches too heavily on the timing of her announcement coinciding with her Olivia endorsement and brings up the situation with Scotty and so if there is any fuel for a backlash this piece does provide it in the most visible single resource imaginable other than CNN. But I really don't think anyone will dare strike a match to the fuel. I just don't. That part of the story doesn't have legs it seems to me. Swoopes herself and her own declaration is too personally compelling. That's where the juice lies in any story. Personal struggle, ultimate realization of something like victory over it or, in this case, freedom from it. That's a story. Everything else is just background._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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Carol Anne
Joined: 09 Apr 2005
Posts: 1739
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: 10/27/05 6:24 am ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
On the Times write up today, again.
I think a person who comes out publically is deserving of a fluff piece and nothing more. The news is the coming out. Period. If the person is famous, that's the story and it will be newsworthy all by itself. I don't think it should be taken by a paper or a reporter as an opportunity to go digging or exposing something else that could or would be embarassing to that person or ratchet up the heat they most certainly should expect AT THIS TIME. |
If you are objecting to the information about Sheryl's financial situation, she told the New York Times about it herself. (By the way, I'm very impressed that Olivia, which I remember as a wimmen's music label, is doing so well as to pay six figures to Sheryl!)
| Quote: |
Swoopes, who is divorced from the father of her 8-year-old son, Jordan, said she had struggled with debt that forced her to file for bankruptcy in 2004 because she mismanaged her money. Swoopes's announcement coincided with her contract with Olivia Cruises and Resorts; it is worth about six figures, said Amy Errett, the company's chief executive. The Nike deal is Swoopes's only other endorsement.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/27/sports/basketball/27swoopes.html?pagewanted=1 |
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Curious
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 141
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| Posted: 10/27/05 11:27 am ::: Reply to downsouthchica |
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| downsouthchica wrote: |
| bballfan2005 wrote: |
| downsouthchica wrote: |
| I am only 15 and I looked up to Sheryl Swoopes alot but now I really dont understand what to think about her coming out because parent and other people really dont want me to be looking up to a gay basketball player I mean being that im straight and I idolized her as much as I hate 2 admit it the way I looked at her will never be the same and I cant help it but hey atleast she was woman enought to admit it ya know |
I hate to be rude, but your post was completely ignorant. At 15, I knew how to separate a basketball player's personal life from his or her professional life. I looked up to Iverson despite his foolish off-the-court antics. Millions of people look up to Kobe despite knowing that he committed adultery. If people can look past the adultery and substance abuse problems of the NBA, the substance abuse problems and sex scandals of the NFL, and steroids problem in baseball, why the hell can't you get past the personal decisions of female athletes? I'd also like to point out that while lesbianism is completely LEGAL, steroids and substance abuse aren't. Remember that. |
I dont care what you think of me or my post if I feel this way I feel this way you can change that so dont worry about the words I say unless they are directed torward you holla |
Hi downsouthchica,
I think your original post is both mature and thoughtful. It takes guts to ask such questions. It takes guts to truly question yourself about what you think. It also takes guts to post to a board like this at 15 - when you admit that you don't know what to think. Questioning and being open to new thoughts and new thinking is both a really brave thing and really smart thing.
I had to figure out what I thought of homosexuality at a very early age. One of my best friends came out to me when I was 14 or 15 - about your age. I feel like I was lucky for that to happen. My parents always let me know that everyone was an equal person no matter what their gender, race, height, eye-color, or sexual orientation. That was pretty lucky for me too. It probably would have been harder for me if my parents hadn't had that attitude. If they had hated other races, I might be racist. I am very happy that they didn't.
I hope you keep an open mind and think about homosexuality in the same way you think about race, ethnicity, or gender. That it is just one element of who a person is and not one that they choose. On a day to day basis, it probably shouldn't matter very much. Who someone sleeps with isn't really something that defines whether they are good or not. Questions about their character - do they lie, cheat, or steal? Are they kind? Do they treat other people well? Those are (among) the important questions.
The only time a person's sexual preference should matter (whether they are homosexual or heterosexual et.al.) is if you want to sleep with them or if they want to sleep with you.
There's really no difference in dealing with a gay person who wants to sleep with you than in dealing with a straight person who wants to sleep with you. If you don't want to, you say "no." If you do, well, then things start to get complicated - because relationships are complicated.
Again, downsouthchica, good luck and keep asking questions! Swoopes is a wonderful basketball player. If you have have a jumpshot in common with her, you'll go places!
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hooper1
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 2300
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| Posted: 10/27/05 11:35 am ::: |
Reply |
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| ddubdawg wrote: |
I would love for there to be a huge amount of "backlash" over Swoopes' coming out, unfortunately, I think it will be a hot topic for a very short time and will be brought up again around the end of next April when training camps start up again. I love it if she were just the first drop of a flood, but she is in a unique situation as one of the best players currently and arguably the best women's player ever, to be the person that she is and to be true to her heart.
On the lighter side, perhaps if more players came out, and I will say that I do not think that the league is dominated by gay players, more straight men might actually become more interested. No, wait, that's too scary, I don't want to share my gals with those goons. Derek |
Why do you hope there will be a huge backlash?
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OU#1
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 54
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| Posted: 10/27/05 12:33 pm ::: |
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| Boy, what an impact this last 48hrs. could have. I have thought of the words "guts", "honesty", "privacy" since it made the airways. But the word for this topic, "backlash" is what has overshadowed the others IMHO. As one who played in the mid-80's, worked at Div.1 level in the 90's, and then finally got to do my first love, coaching, in the late 90's till last year, I greatly fear one thing. The backlash. It won't impact Swoopes - as has been stated earlier, she is arguably one of the best of all time. But instead it is those of us on the periphery. If you are single, in your late 30's-40's and love the game and want to coach it - get ready for the paranoia. In this homophobic country one is seen as "guilty" until proven "innocent". If you think it doesn't come into play in the hiring of coaches you're wrong. From the accounts of Portland's former players and subsequent great article by Voepel and others, to the article a couple yrs. ago re: negative recruiting and Stanford, to the "outing" of the WNBA's best who many hadn't a clue about and has consequently broken the steroetypical mold, there will be parents and administrators who will create a backlash from their ignorance. My fear is this, if you thought there were too few women coaches in AAU, hs, etc. - it could get even worse.
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 5007
Location: The Happening
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| Posted: 10/27/05 12:48 pm ::: |
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| OU#1 wrote: |
| Boy, what an impact this last 48hrs. could have. I have thought of the words "guts", "honesty", "privacy" since it made the airways. But the word for this topic, "backlash" is what has overshadowed the others IMHO. As one who played in the mid-80's, worked at Div.1 level in the 90's, and then finally got to do my first love, coaching, in the late 90's till last year, I greatly fear one thing. The backlash. It won't impact Swoopes - as has been stated earlier, she is arguably one of the best of all time. But instead it is those of us on the periphery. If you are single, in your late 30's-40's and love the game and want to coach it - get ready for the paranoia. In this homophobic country one is seen as "guilty" until proven "innocent". If you think it doesn't come into play in the hiring of coaches you're wrong. From the accounts of Portland's former players and subsequent great article by Voepel and others, to the article a couple yrs. ago re: negative recruiting and Stanford, to the "outing" of the WNBA's best who many hadn't a clue about and has consequently broken the steroetypical mold, there will be parents and administrators who will create a backlash from their ignorance. My fear is this, if you thought there were too few women coaches in AAU, hs, etc. - it could get even worse. |
Or, the impact could be neutral, or it could get better.
79% of those answering ESPN's opinion poll said Swoopes announcement did not change their opinion of her. When asked what impact Sheryl's announcement would have on women's basketball, 55% answered that it did not make her any less marketable, 51% answered the impact of her announcement would be mostly neutral on women's basketball, and while 26% of those who answered thought the announcemnt might have a mostly negative impact on women's basketball, almost as many, 23%, thought its impact would be mostly positive.
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/polling?event_id=1750
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ILuvCatch
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Posts: 583
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| Posted: 10/27/05 1:30 pm ::: Re: Reply to downsouthchica |
Reply |
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| Curious wrote: |
| downsouthchica wrote: |
| bballfan2005 wrote: |
| downsouthchica wrote: |
| I am only 15 and I looked up to Sheryl Swoopes alot but now I really dont understand what to think about her coming out because parent and other people really dont want me to be looking up to a gay basketball player I mean being that im straight and I idolized her as much as I hate 2 admit it the way I looked at her will never be the same and I cant help it but hey atleast she was woman enought to admit it ya know |
I hate to be rude, but your post was completely ignorant. At 15, I knew how to separate a basketball player's personal life from his or her professional life. I looked up to Iverson despite his foolish off-the-court antics. Millions of people look up to Kobe despite knowing that he committed adultery. If people can look past the adultery and substance abuse problems of the NBA, the substance abuse problems and sex scandals of the NFL, and steroids problem in baseball, why the hell can't you get past the personal decisions of female athletes? I'd also like to point out that while lesbianism is completely LEGAL, steroids and substance abuse aren't. Remember that. |
I dont care what you think of me or my post if I feel this way I feel this way you can change that so dont worry about the words I say unless they are directed torward you holla |
Hi downsouthchica,
I think your original post is both mature and thoughtful. It takes guts to ask such questions. It takes guts to truly question yourself about what you think. It also takes guts to post to a board like this at 15 - when you admit that you don't know what to think. Questioning and being open to new thoughts and new thinking is both a really brave thing and really smart thing.
I had to figure out what I thought of homosexuality at a very early age. One of my best friends came out to me when I was 14 or 15 - about your age. I feel like I was lucky for that to happen. My parents always let me know that everyone was an equal person no matter what their gender, race, height, eye-color, or sexual orientation. That was pretty lucky for me too. It probably would have been harder for me if my parents hadn't had that attitude. If they had hated other races, I might be racist. I am very happy that they didn't.
I hope you keep an open mind and think about homosexuality in the same way you think about race, ethnicity, or gender. That it is just one element of who a person is and not one that they choose. On a day to day basis, it probably shouldn't matter very much. Who someone sleeps with isn't really something that defines whether they are good or not. Questions about their character - do they lie, cheat, or steal? Are they kind? Do they treat other people well? Those are (among) the important questions.
The only time a person's sexual preference should matter (whether they are homosexual or heterosexual et.al.) is if you want to sleep with them or if they want to sleep with you.
There's really no difference in dealing with a gay person who wants to sleep with you than in dealing with a straight person who wants to sleep with you. If you don't want to, you say "no." If you do, well, then things start to get complicated - because relationships are complicated.
Again, downsouthchica, good luck and keep asking questions! Swoopes is a wonderful basketball player. If you have have a jumpshot in common with her, you'll go places! |
Excellent response Curious. You said it far better than I could.
_________________
"Preparing our youth to catch
their dreams one star at a time."
-Tamika Catchings
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suemar
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 3729
Location: Norfolk Va
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| Posted: 10/27/05 2:17 pm ::: |
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All this is too weird. Weve been talking on the board about the lack of pub for the W and now look at the pub its getting! I think a player should be a player, period. Their choice of partners shouldnt mean a crap. Now the thing about the bible, a choice or determined at birth weighs in. Again, what does t hat have to do with basketball?? I would hope that there would not be a backlash but thats not how it seems to work. I think it will turn into a good thing myself. At least it will open a few minds if not all minds. When the minds open maybe that will open the doors also. All this could have been reduced years ago if people were as honest as Cheryl.
Sorry for the soap box but.....
_________________
The Beat Goes On...
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CKent
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 140
Location: Smallville, Kansas
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downsouthchica
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 5
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| Posted: 10/27/05 4:09 pm ::: Re: Reply to downsouthchica |
Reply |
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| Curious wrote: |
| downsouthchica wrote: |
| bballfan2005 wrote: |
| downsouthchica wrote: |
| I am only 15 and I looked up to Sheryl Swoopes alot but now I really dont understand what to think about her coming out because parent and other people really dont want me to be looking up to a gay basketball player I mean being that im straight and I idolized her as much as I hate 2 admit it the way I looked at her will never be the same and I cant help it but hey atleast she was woman enought to admit it ya know |
I hate to be rude, but your post was completely ignorant. At 15, I knew how to separate a basketball player's personal life from his or her professional life. I looked up to Iverson despite his foolish off-the-court antics. Millions of people look up to Kobe despite knowing that he committed adultery. If people can look past the adultery and substance abuse problems of the NBA, the substance abuse problems and sex scandals of the NFL, and steroids problem in baseball, why the hell can't you get past the personal decisions of female athletes? I'd also like to point out that while lesbianism is completely LEGAL, steroids and substance abuse aren't. Remember that. |
I dont care what you think of me or my post if I feel this way I feel this way you can change that so dont worry about the words I say unless they are directed torward you holla |
Hi downsouthchica,
I think your original post is both mature and thoughtful. It takes guts to ask such questions. It takes guts to truly question yourself about what you think. It also takes guts to post to a board like this at 15 - when you admit that you don't know what to think. Questioning and being open to new thoughts and new thinking is both a really brave thing and really smart thing.
I had to figure out what I thought of homosexuality at a very early age. One of my best friends came out to me when I was 14 or 15 - about your age. I feel like I was lucky for that to happen. My parents always let me know that everyone was an equal person no matter what their gender, race, height, eye-color, or sexual orientation. That was pretty lucky for me too. It probably would have been harder for me if my parents hadn't had that attitude. If they had hated other races, I might be racist. I am very happy that they didn't.
I hope you keep an open mind and think about homosexuality in the same way you think about race, ethnicity, or gender. That it is just one element of who a person is and not one that they choose. On a day to day basis, it probably shouldn't matter very much. Who someone sleeps with isn't really something that defines whether they are good or not. Questions about their character - do they lie, cheat, or steal? Are they kind? Do they treat other people well? Those are (among) the important questions.
The only time a person's sexual preference should matter (whether they are homosexual or heterosexual et.al.) is if you want to sleep with them or if they want to sleep with you.
There's really no difference in dealing with a gay person who wants to sleep with you than in dealing with a straight person who wants to sleep with you. If you don't want to, you say "no." If you do, well, then things start to get complicated - because relationships are complicated.
Again, downsouthchica, good luck and keep asking questions! Swoopes is a wonderful basketball player. If you have have a jumpshot in common with her, you'll go places! |
Thank you curious I was not trying to offend anyone by the comments I made I was just in total shock .Because I did'nt see this coming I mean she's my idol, I've had talks with my parents and they have told me that she is human just like anybody else, and just because what we do in our personal lifes is different does'nt mean I should look at her different and I dont I've thought about it and i've come to this conclusion. Yeah she is gay and im heterosexual but i still admire her and her game to the fullest what she does in her personal life is her business no one can change that thanks for understanding where I am coming from.
_________________
LE- LE COMING 4 YALL IM A BALLA
AND OH MICHEAL VICK IS MY FUTURE HUSBAND
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 67164
Location: Where the action is
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| Posted: 10/27/05 6:43 pm ::: |
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| vanyogan wrote: |
| This story is a non-story. |
It's already off the front page of ESPN.com.
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The truth is like poetry
Most people hate poetry
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Alepp03
Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 1385
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| Posted: 10/27/05 6:53 pm ::: |
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The World Series is almost off the front page of ESPN...
... Football and College Basketball, here they come...
_________________
In a world full of people only some want to fly, isn't that crazy?
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