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willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012 Posts: 1106 Location: NorCal
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Posted: 04/21/19 11:41 am ::: |
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Shades wrote: |
willtalk wrote: |
Dallas should have drafted Brown. |
Dallas should have drafted Brown? Minnesota should have drafted her. How many teams are smart to pass on 6’7? Now if Collier doesn’t work out at PF, the Lynx are overloaded at SF, especially ones that aren’t that great at the three.
willtalk wrote: |
Now they have nothing. Gustafson is a forward not a center. |
Her best work is close to the basket. I’d say she’s pretty centerish.
willtalk wrote: |
There was an interview with the Wings owner and he seemed shocked that the deal with LA did not go through. |
Link? |
She is pretty centerish on offense, but will have trouble on defense against the bigs she will face in the WNBA.
I saw the article posted on the Baylor site. I am not that good with links. Perhaps I can give it a shot, but unless it is in link form I am lost.
_________________ No one one is ever as good as their best game, nor as bad as their worst.
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willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012 Posts: 1106 Location: NorCal
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63947
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Posted: 04/21/19 2:09 pm ::: |
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willtalk wrote: |
https://highposthoops.com/2019/04/15/exclusive-dallas-wings-president-greg-bibb-updates-liz-cambage-talks/ |
I already saw this somewhere, probably the Dallas thread.
See how two different people can interpret an article differently? You equate Bibb as the owner. I see him as the GM. The article refers to him as the CEO.
This is a Megdal article, which sometimes can be on the money, and other times involves a lot of creative writing on his part. I like when he can bring quotes. He quotes Bibb frequently in this article. But as far how the Sparks or Cambage feels about the situation, there are no quotes so you’re left at the mercy of what his “sources” believe and what conclusions he “clearly” draws from them.
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The Sparks clearly believe their leverage is increasing as training camp approaches. |
This isn’t something the Sparks would tell him so he’s drawing his own conclusion.
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Cambage remains resolute that she will only play in Los Angeles, something she hasn’t deviated from since first telling Dallas back in January that she wanted to be dealt. |
He doesn’t give us quotes or any recent links on this, so he must want us to trust his sources. Could be the same reliable sources that gave us the scoop that Ionescu was declaring for the draft. I read an article where she didn’t know what she’d do if a trade didn’t happen. To me that’s not Cambage being “resolute” and not deviating. Seems like he’s taking liberties with that opinion.
Here’s a part about Gustafson that includes a quote.
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Bibb also spoke glowingly of 17th overall pick Megan Gustafson, whose offensive game he believes will vastly expand at the next level under Brian Agler. For Bibb, though, the biggest selling point for him about Gustafson was her work ethic: “I’ll give a kid like that a shot any day of the week.” |
Sounds like she’ll get a shot.
_________________ Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
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Posted: 04/21/19 2:59 pm ::: |
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At what point does Cambage realize that LA is not willing to give up any essential part of the team for her? Does that make her less excited about playing in LA? More open to Vegas for instance? I doubt she is stupid so it seems like she would draw this conclusion at some point. Or is LA quietly patting her on the back and telling her to just hold on because they really really want her in spite of appearances and eventually something will happen?
_________________ For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
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willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012 Posts: 1106 Location: NorCal
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Posted: 04/21/19 3:36 pm ::: |
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It would seem to me that any smart player would work to make sure that the team they are going to gets the better of any deal. Recently there are more cases of players going out of their way to decrease their trade value. When a player like Cambage states that they will only play for LA that certainly decreases their trade value and helps whichever team she is traded too. This makes the team she ends up with stronger.
Cambage has sat out entire seasons before so her threat to sit out carries a lot more weight. I suspect they might get something done before the trade deadline. Cambage has all the leverage and works for LA as well.
_________________ No one one is ever as good as their best game, nor as bad as their worst.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24409 Location: London
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Posted: 04/21/19 4:08 pm ::: |
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willtalk wrote: |
When a player like Cambage states that they will only play for LA that certainly decreases their trade value and helps whichever team she is traded too. This makes the team she ends up with stronger. |
But only if a deal ultimately gets done. Push it too far and you risk there being no deal at all, and then no one's happy. |
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63947
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Posted: 04/21/19 4:11 pm ::: |
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willtalk wrote: |
It would seem to me that any smart player would work to make sure that the team they are going to gets the better of any deal. |
Unless they’re so smart that they prevent a deal from getting done.
willtalk wrote: |
Recently there are more cases of players going out of their way to decrease their trade value. When a player like Cambage states that they will only play for LA that certainly decreases their trade value and helps whichever team she is traded too. This makes the team she ends up with stronger. |
If she ends up at Dallas, they’ll certainly be stronger.
willtalk wrote: |
Cambage has sat out entire seasons before so her threat to sit out carries a lot more weight. |
Dallas is used to her sitting out, so it shouldn’t rattle them.
willtalk wrote: |
I suspect they might get something done before the trade deadline. |
Is that in August? By then if Cambage is playing in Dallas, she might fall in love with Dallas again and not want a trade.
willtalk wrote: |
Cambage has all the leverage and works for LA as well. |
Dallas has plenty of leverage because I think they already know that Cambage doesn’t really want to sit out. She’s even said in a recent article that she’s playing in May.
_________________ Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 04/21/19 4:23 pm ::: |
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The inconvenient truth for LA fans is that Brian Agler is now the Dallas coach. He knows the LA personnel better than anyone. Agler is not a fool and I doubt he is weak-willed. I'm sure Brian understands that handing over Liz to the Sparks so that they have a big four of Cambage, Parker, Nneka, and Gray could create a super team that dominates the league for years to come. I believe he'll convince Bibb that it's better to just force Cambage to sit out. We saw what the "get what you can" attitude got Chicago in the Fowles deal. All they did was extend Minnesota's dynasty and make it harder on themselves. Far from being a model for this trade, it should be a cautionary tale.
_________________ You can always do something else.
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jap
Joined: 01 Apr 2007 Posts: 7957
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Posted: 04/21/19 5:47 pm ::: |
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root_thing wrote: |
The inconvenient truth for LA fans is that Brian Agler is now the Dallas coach. He knows the LA personnel better than anyone. Agler is not a fool and I doubt he is weak-willed. I'm sure Brian understands that handing over Liz to the Sparks so that they have a big four of Cambage, Parker, Nneka, and Gray could create a super team that dominates the league for years to come. I believe he'll convince Bibb that it's better to just force Cambage to sit out. We saw what the "get what you can" attitude got Chicago in the Fowles deal. All they did was extend Minnesota's dynasty and make it harder on themselves. Far from being a model for this trade, it should be a cautionary tale. |
But, but,.but Liz wants to accessorize in purple & gold. She also wants to accessorize with an up & coming elite PG (ie, Chelsea), an Energized Bunny PF (Nneka), a do everything SF (Candace), and an aging but still potent lockdown defender (Alana). Whatever Hollywood Liz wants, Hollywood Liz gets ...
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J A P
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12632 Location: Dallas , Texas
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
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Posted: 04/21/19 6:42 pm ::: |
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jap wrote: |
root_thing wrote: |
The inconvenient truth for LA fans is that Brian Agler is now the Dallas coach. He knows the LA personnel better than anyone. Agler is not a fool and I doubt he is weak-willed. I'm sure Brian understands that handing over Liz to the Sparks so that they have a big four of Cambage, Parker, Nneka, and Gray could create a super team that dominates the league for years to come. I believe he'll convince Bibb that it's better to just force Cambage to sit out. We saw what the "get what you can" attitude got Chicago in the Fowles deal. All they did was extend Minnesota's dynasty and make it harder on themselves. Far from being a model for this trade, it should be a cautionary tale. |
But, but,.but Liz wants to accessorize in purple & gold. She also wants to accessorize with an up & coming elite PG (ie, Chelsea), an Energized Bunny PF (Nneka), a do everything SF (Candace), and an aging but still potent lockdown defender (Alana). Whatever Hollywood Liz wants, Hollywood Liz gets ... |
she can sit in the stands in purple and gold. no problem.
_________________ For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
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willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012 Posts: 1106 Location: NorCal
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Posted: 04/21/19 8:15 pm ::: |
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I am sure no team in the league wants those four on the same team. It would create a simi dynasty for as long as Cambage wanted to play - which with her is always a question mark. Also Parker will not play much longer. Dallas has to decide how soon without Cambage it will take them to become contenders again and if it is worth it to them get nothing.
_________________ No one one is ever as good as their best game, nor as bad as their worst.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22478 Location: NJ
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Posted: 04/21/19 8:46 pm ::: |
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I think it's been pretty much agreed on that Dallas will be a lottery team this season without Diggins & Cambage if a trade doesn't happen.
_________________ LET'S GO LIBERTY!!!!!!
Twitter: @TBRBWAY
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004 Posts: 16389 Location: Chicago
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Posted: 04/21/19 9:27 pm ::: |
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toad455 wrote: |
I think it's been pretty much agreed on that Dallas will be a lottery team this season without Diggins & Cambage if a trade doesn't happen. |
The kinds of trades we have heard thrown around aren't going to get Dallas out of the lottery.
I continue to hope Dallas tells Cambage and the Sparks to go fuck themselves.
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willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012 Posts: 1106 Location: NorCal
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Posted: 04/22/19 6:55 am ::: |
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Seems like everyone here is responding to what they would want to happen rather than what might. The thing is can Dallas afford to tank this season on purpose and lose the probable revenue that would result from such a tank. Now I really do not know who owns the Wings and if they are willing to take a financial hit for at least one season to assure that La does not win two NBA championships. Min even with Foles did eventually collapse in a few years. It's not like they established a long term dynasty. That is the question? Is the Dallas franchise willing to take that financial hit to keep LA from getting a few championships in a row?
Are some of you looking at things with "fan eyes? and ignoring financial expediency? It's not like WNBA franchises are economically solvent enough that they can afford to lose a year of fan support that fielding a dismal team would result in. What eventually transpires will depend basically this main factor.
_________________ No one one is ever as good as their best game, nor as bad as their worst.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63947
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Posted: 04/22/19 8:06 am ::: |
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willtalk wrote: |
Seems like everyone here is responding to what they would want to happen rather than what might. |
Spoken as a loosely-veiled Sparks fan.
willtalk wrote: |
The thing is can Dallas afford to tank this season on purpose and lose the probable revenue that would result from such a tank? |
I think making a bad trade involving Cambage is the surest way to “tank”. But using the t-word around Dallas fans might get some of them excited because they’re already thinking about Ionescu, who will no longer be able to avoid entering the real world.
willtalk wrote: |
Now I really do not know who owns the Wings and if they are willing to take a financial hit for at least one season to assure that La does not win two WNBA championships. |
That’s funny. I can recently quote you as saying the Wings owner was surprised they didn’t get a deal done.
willtalk wrote: |
Min even with Foles did eventually collapse in a few years. |
How did Minnesota get drawn into this argument? One funky year finishing a game behind the Sparks hardly amounts to a collapse.
trashtalk wrote: |
It's not like they established a long term dynasty. |
I’m sensing some trash-talking here out of the blue. Name a longer-running dynasty.
willtalk wrote: |
Is the Dallas franchise willing to take that financial hit to keep LA from getting a few championships in a row? |
You never adequately explained how making a bad trade with the Sparks causes them to avoid financial ruin.
willtalk wrote: |
Are some of you looking at things with "fan eyes? and ignoring financial expediency? It's not like WNBA franchises are economically solvent enough that they can afford to lose a year of fan support that fielding a dismal team would result in. |
What’s this fabled trade of yours with the Sparks that’s going to create a mountain of fan support by fielding a winning team? If anything, most of the fans don’t know about the Cambage situation yet, and if they find out she was traded away in a table scraps deal, that’ll leave them disappointed.
_________________ Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
Last edited by Shades on 04/22/19 10:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22478 Location: NJ
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Posted: 04/22/19 8:29 am ::: |
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The Dallas tank for 2020 is a possibility. But let's be real in saying that Indiana and New York are highly more likely to get the #1 pick next year. Dallas could land the #3 pick more than likely. That could give them Cox or Mompremier.
_________________ LET'S GO LIBERTY!!!!!!
Twitter: @TBRBWAY
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11225
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Posted: 04/22/19 9:07 am ::: |
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Cambage, we can say, has proven to be unreliable in some ways, which hasn't made her popular, but setting aside folks' feelings about Cambage, this is an interesting issue for the WNBA.
On the one hand, we have a talented player who wants to control where she works, just like any other employee. For example, if you were an accountant in Dallas and wanted to live in Southern California, you could very likely make that happen. You might have to scuffle for a while, but eventually you'd find a job that would allow you to live where you wanted.
I have difficulty objecting to an athlete trying to live where she wants to live, and using what limited leverage she has to do so. (If Cambage were just another WNBA player -- Theresa Plaisance, say -- this whole discussion is moot, as Plaisance has no leverage at all.)
On the other, Cambage's desire to play for L.A. would not only impact her employer now, but also the entire industry, as her presence would shift the balance of power much as Kevin Durant's decision impacted the NBA. (Of course, the WNBA is much more fragile than the NBA, but even the NBA has considered changing the rules to prevent a move like Durant's.)
From the Dallas point of view, it would make sense to get something, anything, for Cambage, as even someone who plays 10 minutes a game is better than someone who plays no minutes a game, but there is that competitive disadvantage aspect.
From the owners' point of view, Dallas should stand firm, as it doesn't help the league when stars dictate where they will play. That usually means one franchise loses a key attraction and gains little in return, which affects the stability of the league -- and also affects the owners' ability to control their players freedom of movement.
My guess is -- yes, Shades, it's a guess -- that since Dallas isn't really a championship contender with Cambage, they will let her sit rather than give in to her demands. This will make the owners happy, and those fans who dislike players' ability to make decisions about their own future (and there are many -- just look at college fans who want transfers to sit out a year) happy as well. It makes Cambage unhappy, and some Dallas fans who would like their team to win more games, but on balance, I think the owners and player-unfriendly fans carry more weight, or at least enough weight to leave Cambage on an Australian beach this summer.
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 04/22/19 10:05 am ::: |
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If LA's current offer is actually Vadeeva and next year's 1st Round pick, how will that package make a difference in Dallas' fortunes this year? Is Vadeeva going to win them significantly more games -- the same player who got 8 mpg from Agler in LA? Is Vadeeva a huge box office attraction who is going to sell a lot of tickets in Dallas? Even if the Wings can trade her, whoever they get back is not going to move the needle. As for that 1st Round pick, it will probably be #12 in a weak draft. Players like that are often out of the league before their rookie contract ends. As far as I can see, Dallas is not sacrificing much by not taking the reported offer -- just a couple of rolls of the dice. Meanwhile, the competitive disadvantage they'll create by making LA stronger is a near certainty.
_________________ You can always do something else.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24409 Location: London
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Posted: 04/22/19 10:46 am ::: |
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Yeah, we keep essentially saying it - the trade doesn't make sense for Dallas unless they get Nneka or Gray, and it doesn't make sense for LA unless they can do it without giving up Nneka or Gray. That's an impasse.
This:
ClayK wrote: |
From the Dallas point of view, it would make sense to get something, anything, for Cambage, as even someone who plays 10 minutes a game is better than someone who plays no minutes a game |
...just isn't really true. What's the point of Vadeeva playing those 10 minutes instead of Plaisance, George or someone off the street? Unless you think Vadeeva's going to turn into a star - and Agler certainly didn't seem to feel that way last year - you're adding someone who'll make virtually no difference to your team, while potentially creating a superteam elsewhere. Why on Earth would you do that? And how many disasters would have to befall that LA team for that pick to be worth much? You'd need at least one major injury, probably two, and for Fisher to be a complete incompetent. Otherwise it's a throw-in. |
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canadaball
Joined: 24 May 2013 Posts: 525
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Posted: 04/22/19 10:55 am ::: |
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From the outside, I wrote about this triangle (Dallas, Vegas, LA, with Cam in middle) weeks ago, and nothing has changed. Note that Cam's agent (Allison Galer) is very closely linked to the Sparks, Magic Johnson, and the Lakers: .http://www.espn.com/espnw/voices/article/24211181/allison-galer-cool-job-wnba-agent-founder-disrupt-game-agency It is obvious that Mr. Bill has made an offer far richer than anything LA can make; in addition, mention of the necessity of a three way deal confirms that Agler wants absolutely no part of Lavender, who must be unloaded by LA to fit Cam's salary under cap.
I don't understand how the Dallas position is weaker post draft. The article states that LA's offer was Valdeeva, their 2019 and 2020 first round picks. Val is a promising young Russian, but, with her national team commitments, no guarantee how often she will show up in Dallas. She is the star of a Russian national team that has suffered humiliation in last few years, including no appearances in the Olympics and World Cup. Consider also that she plays for Ekat, and might be making a million a year overseas. A young foreign player might be excited by playing in Hollywood for peanuts, but not so sure she would go for Dallas in the summer (let's see...off day in LA, beach and surfing; Dallas ????). Should Cam go to LA, any future #1 picks would be at bottom of first round, thus borderline useless. LA did take Brown with their #7 pick, but, unless Dallas wants her (remember they passed on her at #5 to take Arike), I do not see how post draft changed anything.
If Cam insists on LA, Dallas can reject the LA offer b/c it is very weak, when compared to the riches LV must be offering. A trade with LA (unloading Lavender for Cam is huge) helps a rival for years to come, with a good chance Dallas ends up with nada. Agler also must know that the current LA roster is not formidable. The Sparks are very thin at guard (they are very dependent upon Sims, who was bad last year), and have only one reliable outside shooter (Gray).
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Fishhappy
Joined: 15 Mar 2014 Posts: 261 Location: Pittsburgh
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Posted: 04/22/19 11:14 am ::: |
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IMO unless the wings get Brown and Gray for Liz the wings are still going to be a lottery team. Without Skylar they don't have the guard play to compete. Even if Enrike has a rookie of the year type season she is not a point guard. historically even the great point guards have taken several years to reach there potential. Bird , Wayland , Diggins ,Sloot and Gray all took time to get to be top tier point guards in the W.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11225
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Posted: 04/22/19 11:30 am ::: |
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Richyyy wrote: |
Yeah, we keep essentially saying it - the trade doesn't make sense for Dallas unless they get Nneka or Gray, and it doesn't make sense for LA unless they can do it without giving up Nneka or Gray. That's an impasse.
This:
ClayK wrote: |
From the Dallas point of view, it would make sense to get something, anything, for Cambage, as even someone who plays 10 minutes a game is better than someone who plays no minutes a game |
...just isn't really true. What's the point of Vadeeva playing those 10 minutes instead of Plaisance, George or someone off the street? Unless you think Vadeeva's going to turn into a star - and Agler certainly didn't seem to feel that way last year - you're adding someone who'll make virtually no difference to your team, while potentially creating a superteam elsewhere. Why on Earth would you do that? And how many disasters would have to befall that LA team for that pick to be worth much? You'd need at least one major injury, probably two, and for Fisher to be a complete incompetent. Otherwise it's a throw-in. |
Good point -- we're talking a replacement player, and unless Vadeeva or whoever brings significantly more value than a replacement player (someone available) than the 10 minutes mean nothing. Of course, if the player they get can contribute one win above replacement, say, then that something is better than the Cambage nothing.
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63947
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Posted: 04/22/19 11:35 am ::: |
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Fishhappy wrote: |
IMO unless the wings get Brown and Gray for Liz the wings are still going to be a lottery team. |
Dallas’ two favorite colors, Brown and Gray, plus Vadeeva for Cambage and Ogunbowale. Discuss.
Fishhappy wrote: |
Without Skylar they don't have the guard play to compete. |
Without Skylar.... She was my #2 problem with the team last year. Not great court vision. Not great creativity. She needs to be a PG no longer.
_________________ Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004 Posts: 16389 Location: Chicago
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Posted: 04/22/19 12:09 pm ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
Cambage, we can say, has proven to be unreliable in some ways, which hasn't made her popular, but setting aside folks' feelings about Cambage, this is an interesting issue for the WNBA.
On the one hand, we have a talented player who wants to control where she works, just like any other employee. For example, if you were an accountant in Dallas and wanted to live in Southern California, you could very likely make that happen. You might have to scuffle for a while, but eventually you'd find a job that would allow you to live where you wanted.
I have difficulty objecting to an athlete trying to live where she wants to live, and using what limited leverage she has to do so. (If Cambage were just another WNBA player -- Theresa Plaisance, say -- this whole discussion is moot, as Plaisance has no leverage at all.)
On the other, Cambage's desire to play for L.A. would not only impact her employer now, but also the entire industry, as her presence would shift the balance of power much as Kevin Durant's decision impacted the NBA. (Of course, the WNBA is much more fragile than the NBA, but even the NBA has considered changing the rules to prevent a move like Durant's.)
From the Dallas point of view, it would make sense to get something, anything, for Cambage, as even someone who plays 10 minutes a game is better than someone who plays no minutes a game, but there is that competitive disadvantage aspect.
From the owners' point of view, Dallas should stand firm, as it doesn't help the league when stars dictate where they will play. That usually means one franchise loses a key attraction and gains little in return, which affects the stability of the league -- and also affects the owners' ability to control their players freedom of movement.
My guess is -- yes, Shades, it's a guess -- that since Dallas isn't really a championship contender with Cambage, they will let her sit rather than give in to her demands. This will make the owners happy, and those fans who dislike players' ability to make decisions about their own future (and there are many -- just look at college fans who want transfers to sit out a year) happy as well. It makes Cambage unhappy, and some Dallas fans who would like their team to win more games, but on balance, I think the owners and player-unfriendly fans carry more weight, or at least enough weight to leave Cambage on an Australian beach this summer. |
The whole idea that an account gets the right to choose where they work might have some degree of connection to Cambage if accountants belonged to a Union that collectively bargained in the same way. The players have voluntarily signed onto a contract that sets up where they play and how they move. If players don't like it, they should try to collectively bargain something else. They chose to sign on to this system.
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