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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013 Posts: 7868 Location: Shenandoah Valley
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Posted: 04/02/21 10:15 am ::: |
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PG4ever wrote: |
summertime blues wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
It's such a fine line (as an old white male).
So let's say there's a group of players coaches are talking about. (And this is a legit question.)
Is it OK to say "The Black girl looks good"? I feel like I shouldn't say that, shouldn't use "Black." I feel like I need to say "The girl is red shorts looks good."
In other settings, when you're trying to identify a person in a group (not in a negative way, just to determine who's being discussed), is it OK to say "Oh, the Black guy"? Or again, "The guy in the blue shorts"? |
OK, here's an example from one of my granddaughters (I have 11 grandkids, all but one of whom are multi-ethnic of some kind). This girl's mother is Black (with some white, obviously, because she and her family are pretty light) and her dad is Puerto Rican. When she was applying for college monies, she said to me, "For some, I can play the Black card, for some I play the Hispanic card. Honestly, I'd rather just play the honor student card." |
It doesn't have to be either/or. She can be the Black Hispanic honor student and be eligible for scholarships that target African American students, those that target Hispanic students and those that target honor students. That language of "playing the race card" makes it sound like students of color are getting some kind of unearned advantage over white students and when you look at the data (number of students of color on college campuses, scholarship money, etc.) that's not the case. |
Actually not. Her point was that there are certain scholarships that are for Black students. others that ate for Hispanic students, etc. She said that to me in a moment of frustration.
_________________ Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020 Posts: 432
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PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020 Posts: 432
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Posted: 04/02/21 10:45 am ::: |
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bcdawg04 wrote: |
PG4ever wrote: |
myrtle wrote: |
I too was surprised to hear Adia mentioned as black. But sometimes it's true that I just don't really notice so I assumed I hadn't really looked. When someone asks me to describe another person, ethnicity is just usually not at the top of my 'notice' list. |
I want to push you to think about your statement a little more. If you didn't notice then why would you be surprised to hear that she was black? I would say you did notice and your brain assumed she was white and that's why you were surprised to hear that she was black. That's not an attack. I just think it's important for people who are not black to think more critically about how they think about race/ethnicity and to learn more about how black folks think about it. I have a question for you and I genuinely want to hear your answer if you're up to answering it. Why do you think ethnicity is not at the top of your list when you're describing someone? As a black woman, my African American identity is very core to who I am. If someone were describing me and didn't mention that I was AA I would think they don't see me, that I'm kind of invisible to them and that, in not noticing, they disregard the history of African Americans in this country. I appreciate your thoughts and willingness to have dialogue. |
I have an honest question, if I may. If someone describes you to me as "an African American person," what is it you hope that I infer about you from that description?
Or, would you expect that identifying you as "an African American person" is only part of how s/he describes you? |
Only speaking for myself, when someone describes me as AA, it's not so much what you/they infer about me but how I feel (seen) and what I infer about you/them (that you/they truly see me). I don't have negative feelings toward someone who uses the color blind approach but in terms of describing myself, it's just not my preference. African American is certainly not the only way that I would like someone to describe me but my AA identity is a core part of who I am.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
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Posted: 04/02/21 3:00 pm ::: |
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PG4ever wrote: |
When I'm dealing with in-laws, nieces, nephews, and cousins their race is just not something I think about unless they run into some race related situation and tell me about it. I don't know if this answers your question or not, but thanks for asking. It at least made me think about it some more.
This is why race/ethnicity is so salient to those of us who are African American. From birth, we are always running into some race related situation--or more accurately, they're always running into us. |
yes I do understand that. My heart aches for those affected by racism. I saw it first hand as a college student when I dated a man of color. We were stopped by the police for no good reason. The cop approached with gun drawn and sprawled my friend over the hood of the car, patted him down, and left him there while he came back to talk to me. His first question was "do you feel safe in the car with this man?" I was tongue-tied - like wtf is he asking me. There were many other aspects I won't even go in to. Ok, one thing he said was "you know most of that type end up in jail". [ the guy was a college athlete and both his parents were professionals ] But finally the cop walked back to his car and I heard him say under his breath "perverts". No tickets given. No explanation for the stop. Then he followed on our bumper and spotlighted us for the next five miles or so. And I know this is lightweight compared to many experiences, but it was really eye-opening for a dumb white girl from poodunk.
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bcdawg04
Joined: 12 Apr 2016 Posts: 586 Location: Seattle
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Posted: 04/02/21 3:13 pm ::: |
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PG4ever wrote: |
bcdawg04 wrote: |
PG4ever wrote: |
myrtle wrote: |
I too was surprised to hear Adia mentioned as black. But sometimes it's true that I just don't really notice so I assumed I hadn't really looked. When someone asks me to describe another person, ethnicity is just usually not at the top of my 'notice' list. |
I want to push you to think about your statement a little more. If you didn't notice then why would you be surprised to hear that she was black? I would say you did notice and your brain assumed she was white and that's why you were surprised to hear that she was black. That's not an attack. I just think it's important for people who are not black to think more critically about how they think about race/ethnicity and to learn more about how black folks think about it. I have a question for you and I genuinely want to hear your answer if you're up to answering it. Why do you think ethnicity is not at the top of your list when you're describing someone? As a black woman, my African American identity is very core to who I am. If someone were describing me and didn't mention that I was AA I would think they don't see me, that I'm kind of invisible to them and that, in not noticing, they disregard the history of African Americans in this country. I appreciate your thoughts and willingness to have dialogue. |
I have an honest question, if I may. If someone describes you to me as "an African American person," what is it you hope that I infer about you from that description?
Or, would you expect that identifying you as "an African American person" is only part of how s/he describes you? |
Only speaking for myself, when someone describes me as AA, it's not so much what you/they infer about me but how I feel (seen) and what I infer about you/them (that you/they truly see me). I don't have negative feelings toward someone who uses the color blind approach but in terms of describing myself, it's just not my preference. African American is certainly not the only way that I would like someone to describe me but my AA identity is a core part of who I am. |
Thank you, I believe I understand what you are saying. As much as I would prefer not identifying myself here so that I can be judged solely based on what I post, I will say that as a person of color I hear you about wanting to be seen. I appreciate hearing some of your perspective on race and ethnicity.
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PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020 Posts: 432
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Posted: 04/02/21 3:15 pm ::: |
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myrtle wrote: |
PG4ever wrote: |
When I'm dealing with in-laws, nieces, nephews, and cousins their race is just not something I think about unless they run into some race related situation and tell me about it. I don't know if this answers your question or not, but thanks for asking. It at least made me think about it some more.
This is why race/ethnicity is so salient to those of us who are African American. From birth, we are always running into some race related situation--or more accurately, they're always running into us. |
yes I do understand that. My heart aches for those affected by racism. I saw it first hand as a college student when I dated a man of color. We were stopped by the police for no good reason. The cop approached with gun drawn and sprawled my friend over the hood of the car, patted him down, and left him there while he came back to talk to me. His first question was "do you feel safe in the car with this man?" I was tongue-tied - like wtf is he asking me. There were many other aspects I won't even go in to. Ok, one thing he said was "you know most of that type end up in jail". [ the guy was a college athlete and both his parents were professionals ] But finally the cop walked back to his car and I heard him say under his breath "perverts". No tickets given. No explanation for the stop. Then he followed on our bumper and spotlighted us for the next five miles or so. And I know this is lightweight compared to many experiences, but it was really eye-opening for a dumb white girl from poodunk. |
I'm sorry that you had that experience. Unfortunately it was common and still happens. Let's hope that everybody's doing their part--individually and collectively, socially and politically, spiritually and humanistically--so that experiences like that become a thing of the past.
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bcdawg04
Joined: 12 Apr 2016 Posts: 586 Location: Seattle
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Posted: 04/02/21 3:41 pm ::: |
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For those that did not know that Coach Barnes is Black until she reached the Final Four...to be honest, I did not know either. During her time at UW, I never read about her being described as or identifying herself as Black or African American. It never came up at any UW event. That's not to say that it never happened, but her being Black just wasn't common knowledge amongst fans.
That being said, I love seeing the history being made by Coach Barnes and Coach Staley and it being highlighted.
The other day, I watched this video of a roundtable discussion of several people of color in the entertainment industry. Even though they were speaking to some of their experiences in the entertainment industry, it is all relevant to basically any industry. They talked about how white people aren't just going to make room for minorities. People of color have to make their own room, take up space, and then succeed - when a white man is mediocre, he still has an abundance of opportunities.
Watching Coach Barnes and Coach Staley succeed despite the historically limited opportunities for people of color is tremendous. I hope it leads to increased opportunities for underrepresented minorities.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15765 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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Posted: 04/02/21 11:30 pm ::: |
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bcdawg04 wrote: |
For those that did not know that Coach Barnes is Black until she reached the Final Four...to be honest, I did not know either. |
The same for me....did not know, nor really cared. IFF her 'black identity' helps anyone, so be it. (I'm curious....has Adia herself ever spoken on the topic?) I'd think her own wishes should be at the forefront of HER experience..
_________________ Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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undersized_post
Joined: 01 Mar 2021 Posts: 2864
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Posted: 04/02/21 11:32 pm ::: |
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Howee wrote: |
bcdawg04 wrote: |
For those that did not know that Coach Barnes is Black until she reached the Final Four...to be honest, I did not know either. |
The same for me....did not know, nor really cared. IFF her 'black identity' helps anyone, so be it. (I'm curious....has Adia herself ever spoken on the topic?) I'd think her own wishes should be at the forefront of HER experience.. |
She just talked about it in the postgame press conference!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGoNOmtoSM
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PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020 Posts: 432
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Posted: 04/03/21 8:23 am ::: |
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undersized_post wrote: |
Howee wrote: |
bcdawg04 wrote: |
For those that did not know that Coach Barnes is Black until she reached the Final Four...to be honest, I did not know either. |
The same for me....did not know, nor really cared. IFF her 'black identity' helps anyone, so be it. (I'm curious....has Adia herself ever spoken on the topic?) I'd think her own wishes should be at the forefront of HER experience.. |
She just talked about it in the postgame press conference!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msGoNOmtoSM |
Coach Adia Barnes in the presser: “Representation matters. Opportunities matter. ...We’re not only recruiters. ...Don’t allow yourself--as a female, as a black female--to be pigeonholed into one thing. ...Given opportunities we can definitely flourish.”
She also commented on the fact that she knows as a black female coach, she has to succeed because black women coaches don't get recycled/don’t get second opportunities the way white coaches. As Barnes said, it’s unfortunate and hopefully that will change too.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11232
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Posted: 04/03/21 11:52 am ::: |
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I would love to have someone answer this ...
It's such a fine line (as an old white male).
So let's say there's a group of players coaches are talking about. (And this is a legit question.)
Is it OK to say "The Black girl looks good"? I feel like I shouldn't say that, shouldn't use "Black." I feel like I need to say "The girl is red shorts looks good."
In other settings, when you're trying to identify a person in a group (not in a negative way, just to determine who's being discussed), is it OK to say "Oh, the Black guy"? Or again, "The guy in the blue shorts"?
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020 Posts: 432
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taropatch
Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 814 Location: Kau Rubbish Dump
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15765 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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Posted: 04/03/21 3:53 pm ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
I would love to have someone answer this ...
It's such a fine line (as an old white male).
So let's say there's a group of players coaches are talking about. (And this is a legit question.)
Is it OK to say "The Black girl looks good"? I feel like I shouldn't say that, shouldn't use "Black." I feel like I need to say "The girl is red shorts looks good."
In other settings, when you're trying to identify a person in a group (not in a negative way, just to determine who's being discussed), is it OK to say "Oh, the Black guy"? Or again, "The guy in the blue shorts"? |
As (another) old white male, I'd say it depends on who's playing. I mean, if it's 1 white kid in a bunch of black kids, and s/he's excelling, AND you don't know names or see numbers, I'd find no offense to saying, "That white kid has some terrific handles!". Reverse it, and it's still good by me. Just my 2 cents....keep the change.
_________________ Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013 Posts: 7868 Location: Shenandoah Valley
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Posted: 04/03/21 5:55 pm ::: |
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Howee wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
I would love to have someone answer this ...
It's such a fine line (as an old white male).
So let's say there's a group of players coaches are talking about. (And this is a legit question.)
Is it OK to say "The Black girl looks good"? I feel like I shouldn't say that, shouldn't use "Black." I feel like I need to say "The girl is red shorts looks good."
In other settings, when you're trying to identify a person in a group (not in a negative way, just to determine who's being discussed), is it OK to say "Oh, the Black guy"? Or again, "The guy in the blue shorts"? |
As (another) old white male, I'd say it depends on who's playing. I mean, if it's 1 white kid in a bunch of black kids, and s/he's excelling, AND you don't know names or see numbers, I'd find no offense to saying, "That white kid has some terrific handles!". Reverse it, and it's still good by me. Just my 2 cents....keep the change. |
They are gonna have some difficulty with my youngest granddaughter...a brown-eyed blonde of Black, Native American (Muscokee Creek) and white heritage. She's only dark in the summertime. Her birth certificate lists her as Black because of the archaic rule that "you are what your mother is" and her mother describes herself as "the whiteest Black person you ever saw" (she could "pass" but sees no reason to). I have a feeling that P may choose to identify as Native American...no particular reason except that she is such a daddy's girl, besides which she qualifies to be an enrolled tribal member.
_________________ Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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NoDakSt
Joined: 26 Oct 2005 Posts: 4929
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Posted: 04/03/21 6:04 pm ::: |
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Great story. Love A’dia.
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auntie
Joined: 16 May 2006 Posts: 1774 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: 04/04/21 10:22 am ::: |
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Thank you all for a very interesting discussion. I have two questions:
1. Is it ok to describe someone as blond or Asian? I know that the prejudice toward other groups is by no means at the same level as toward African Americans, but there are stereotypes.
2. Is our aim a color blind society? If so, what is wrong for not noticing that someone is Black?
_________________ A woman's place is in the paint--Another artist for Liberty.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15765 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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Posted: 04/04/21 1:21 pm ::: |
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NoDakSt wrote: |
Great story. Love A’dia. |
Amazing lady. I never knew any of that. Thank you for sharing it.
auntie wrote: |
Thank you all for a very interesting discussion. I have two questions:
1. Is it ok to describe someone as blond or Asian? I know that the prejudice toward other groups is by no means at the same level as toward African Americans, but there are stereotypes.
2. Is our aim a color blind society? If so, what is wrong for not noticing that someone is Black? |
Re: #1, I'd think it's okay -- but again, all in context. If there's only one Asian in the group, why not? If there's several Asians, then....? (by the way, I have Asian friends who'd be very torqued if someone referred to them as Chinese, if they're Korean, or as Japanese if they're Thai, etc. -- ) Blond? Why not? These days kids color their hair green, blue, whatever, so there's another convenient descriptor.
_________________ Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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PlayBally'all
Joined: 17 Oct 2013 Posts: 271
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NoDakSt
Joined: 26 Oct 2005 Posts: 4929
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Posted: 04/08/21 7:00 pm ::: |
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NM
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PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020 Posts: 432
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Posted: 04/08/21 9:42 pm ::: |
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summertime blues wrote: |
Howee wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
I would love to have someone answer this ...
It's such a fine line (as an old white male).
So let's say there's a group of players coaches are talking about. (And this is a legit question.)
Is it OK to say "The Black girl looks good"? I feel like I shouldn't say that, shouldn't use "Black." I feel like I need to say "The girl is red shorts looks good."
In other settings, when you're trying to identify a person in a group (not in a negative way, just to determine who's being discussed), is it OK to say "Oh, the Black guy"? Or again, "The guy in the blue shorts"? |
As (another) old white male, I'd say it depends on who's playing. I mean, if it's 1 white kid in a bunch of black kids, and s/he's excelling, AND you don't know names or see numbers, I'd find no offense to saying, "That white kid has some terrific handles!". Reverse it, and it's still good by me. Just my 2 cents....keep the change. |
They are gonna have some difficulty with my youngest granddaughter...a brown-eyed blonde of Black, Native American (Muscokee Creek) and white heritage. She's only dark in the summertime. Her birth certificate lists her as Black because of the archaic rule that "you are what your mother is" and her mother describes herself as "the whiteest Black person you ever saw" (she could "pass" but sees no reason to). I have a feeling that P may choose to identify as Native American...no particular reason except that she is such a daddy's girl, besides which she qualifies to be an enrolled tribal member. |
Her birth certificate lists her as Black because of the archaic rule that "you are what your mother is"
That's interesting. I'm aware of the "you are what your mother is" sentiment socially/culturally but in terms of birth certificates I'm not aware of any such rule. My understanding was that parents selected race/ethnicity on birth certificates.
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PlayBally'all
Joined: 17 Oct 2013 Posts: 271
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Posted: 04/09/21 12:27 am ::: |
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PG4ever wrote: |
summertime blues wrote: |
Howee wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
I would love to have someone answer this ...
It's such a fine line (as an old white male).
So let's say there's a group of players coaches are talking about. (And this is a legit question.)
Is it OK to say "The Black girl looks good"? I feel like I shouldn't say that, shouldn't use "Black." I feel like I need to say "The girl is red shorts looks good."
In other settings, when you're trying to identify a person in a group (not in a negative way, just to determine who's being discussed), is it OK to say "Oh, the Black guy"? Or again, "The guy in the blue shorts"? |
As (another) old white male, I'd say it depends on who's playing. I mean, if it's 1 white kid in a bunch of black kids, and s/he's excelling, AND you don't know names or see numbers, I'd find no offense to saying, "That white kid has some terrific handles!". Reverse it, and it's still good by me. Just my 2 cents....keep the change. |
They are gonna have some difficulty with my youngest granddaughter...a brown-eyed blonde of Black, Native American (Muscokee Creek) and white heritage. She's only dark in the summertime. Her birth certificate lists her as Black because of the archaic rule that "you are what your mother is" and her mother describes herself as "the whiteest Black person you ever saw" (she could "pass" but sees no reason to). I have a feeling that P may choose to identify as Native American...no particular reason except that she is such a daddy's girl, besides which she qualifies to be an enrolled tribal member. |
Her birth certificate lists her as Black because of the archaic rule that "you are what your mother is"
That's interesting. I'm aware of the "you are what your mother is" sentiment socially/culturally but in terms of birth certificates I'm not aware of any such rule. My understanding was that parents selected race/ethnicity on birth certificates. |
I believe that it depends on the state.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9816
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Posted: 04/09/21 2:40 am ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
Is it OK to say "The Black girl looks good"? I feel like I shouldn't say that, shouldn't use "Black." I feel like I need to say "The girl is red shorts looks good."
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This is going back decades, but I have seen boxing fights called where one fighter is black and the other is white. And they both have on the same color shorts/trunks. Throughout the fight if the announcer wanted to clarify who is who he would say "Jones, in the white trunks with the red trim" and "Johnson, in the white trunks with the blue trim". And in both cases there was a large black band around the waistline, and thin hard to see trim around the rest of the shorts.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013 Posts: 7868 Location: Shenandoah Valley
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Posted: 04/09/21 2:42 pm ::: |
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PlayBally'all wrote: |
PG4ever wrote: |
summertime blues wrote: |
Howee wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
I would love to have someone answer this ...
It's such a fine line (as an old white male).
So let's say there's a group of players coaches are talking about. (And this is a legit question.)
Is it OK to say "The Black girl looks good"? I feel like I shouldn't say that, shouldn't use "Black." I feel like I need to say "The girl is red shorts looks good."
In other settings, when you're trying to identify a person in a group (not in a negative way, just to determine who's being discussed), is it OK to say "Oh, the Black guy"? Or again, "The guy in the blue shorts"? |
As (another) old white male, I'd say it depends on who's playing. I mean, if it's 1 white kid in a bunch of black kids, and s/he's excelling, AND you don't know names or see numbers, I'd find no offense to saying, "That white kid has some terrific handles!". Reverse it, and it's still good by me. Just my 2 cents....keep the change. |
They are gonna have some difficulty with my youngest granddaughter...a brown-eyed blonde of Black, Native American (Muscokee Creek) and white heritage. She's only dark in the summertime. Her birth certificate lists her as Black because of the archaic rule that "you are what your mother is" and her mother describes herself as "the whiteest Black person you ever saw" (she could "pass" but sees no reason to). I have a feeling that P may choose to identify as Native American...no particular reason except that she is such a daddy's girl, besides which she qualifies to be an enrolled tribal member. |
Her birth certificate lists her as Black because of the archaic rule that "you are what your mother is"
That's interesting. I'm aware of the "you are what your mother is" sentiment socially/culturally but in terms of birth certificates I'm not aware of any such rule. My understanding was that parents selected race/ethnicity on birth certificates. |
I believe that it depends on the state. |
It is true through much of the south. P was born in Florida. My grandson, who you would absolutely 100% identify as Black, and who says he is Black, and is listed as white on his birth certificate because his mother is, was born in Tennessee. And I know this is true is Tennessee because I worked neonatal for a good little while and have friends who still do. As one of those friends used to say, "It's because it's obvious who your mom is....but they never really knew who your dad was, at least until DNA."
_________________ Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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PlayBally'all
Joined: 17 Oct 2013 Posts: 271
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Posted: 04/09/21 4:47 pm ::: |
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summertime blues wrote: |
PlayBally'all wrote: |
PG4ever wrote: |
summertime blues wrote: |
Howee wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
I would love to have someone answer this ...
It's such a fine line (as an old white male).
So let's say there's a group of players coaches are talking about. (And this is a legit question.)
Is it OK to say "The Black girl looks good"? I feel like I shouldn't say that, shouldn't use "Black." I feel like I need to say "The girl is red shorts looks good."
In other settings, when you're trying to identify a person in a group (not in a negative way, just to determine who's being discussed), is it OK to say "Oh, the Black guy"? Or again, "The guy in the blue shorts"? |
As (another) old white male, I'd say it depends on who's playing. I mean, if it's 1 white kid in a bunch of black kids, and s/he's excelling, AND you don't know names or see numbers, I'd find no offense to saying, "That white kid has some terrific handles!". Reverse it, and it's still good by me. Just my 2 cents....keep the change. |
They are gonna have some difficulty with my youngest granddaughter...a brown-eyed blonde of Black, Native American (Muscokee Creek) and white heritage. She's only dark in the summertime. Her birth certificate lists her as Black because of the archaic rule that "you are what your mother is" and her mother describes herself as "the whiteest Black person you ever saw" (she could "pass" but sees no reason to). I have a feeling that P may choose to identify as Native American...no particular reason except that she is such a daddy's girl, besides which she qualifies to be an enrolled tribal member. |
Her birth certificate lists her as Black because of the archaic rule that "you are what your mother is"
That's interesting. I'm aware of the "you are what your mother is" sentiment socially/culturally but in terms of birth certificates I'm not aware of any such rule. My understanding was that parents selected race/ethnicity on birth certificates. |
I believe that it depends on the state. |
It is true through much of the south. P was born in Florida. My grandson, who you would absolutely 100% identify as Black, and who says he is Black, and is listed as white on his birth certificate because his mother is, was born in Tennessee. And I know this is true is Tennessee because I worked neonatal for a good little while and have friends who still do. As one of those friends used to say, "It's because it's obvious who your mom is....but they never really knew who your dad was, at least until DNA." |
Good point
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