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#10 Tennessee at LSU - 1/28/18
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summertime blues



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PostPosted: 01/30/18 12:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
I think Nikki is finally getting her program built. She's well into that period of her coaching employment at LSU, and conventional wisdom says it takes 7 years to do that. Every year that her team has gone to the big dance, they've gotten farther than they "deserve to" according to the pundits, and I think that says more than just sheer luck on their part.



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 01/30/18 12:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
summertime blues wrote:
I think Nikki is finally getting her program built. She's well into that period of her coaching employment at LSU, and conventional wisdom says it takes 7 years to do that. Every year that her team has gone to the big dance, they've gotten farther than they "deserve to" according to the pundits, and I think that says more than just sheer luck on their part.


What conventional wisdom is that?
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PostPosted: 01/30/18 5:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
summertime blues wrote:
I think Nikki is finally getting her program built. She's well into that period of her coaching employment at LSU, and conventional wisdom says it takes 7 years to do that. Every year that her team has gone to the big dance, they've gotten farther than they "deserve to" according to the pundits, and I think that says more than just sheer luck on their part.




The Fargas record:


GIFT: In 2012, as a #5, hosted and lost to #4 Penn St.
GIFT: In 2013, as a #6, hosted and beat #3 Penn St.
GIFT: In 2014, as a #7, hosted and beat #2 WV.
In 2015, as a #11, lost Rd. 1 at #6 USF.
In 2016, didn't qualify.
In 2017, as a #8, lost Rd. 1 to #9 Cal at Baylor.

In summary, LSU was gifted 3 straight hostings. They won two of them.
Next, they lost as they should have.
Next, they didn't qualify.
Next, they lost the 8/9 game as the 8.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 01/30/18 10:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
PUmatty wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
I think Nikki is finally getting her program built. She's well into that period of her coaching employment at LSU, and conventional wisdom says it takes 7 years to do that. Every year that her team has gone to the big dance, they've gotten farther than they "deserve to" according to the pundits, and I think that says more than just sheer luck on their part.


What conventional wisdom is that?


Laughing

Just what I was thinking.

Only in women's basketball do coaches get to keep a job through seven years of mediocrity or failure.
WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 01/30/18 10:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
cthskzfn wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
I think Nikki is finally getting her program built. She's well into that period of her coaching employment at LSU, and conventional wisdom says it takes 7 years to do that. Every year that her team has gone to the big dance, they've gotten farther than they "deserve to" according to the pundits, and I think that says more than just sheer luck on their part.




The Fargas record:


GIFT: In 2012, as a #5, hosted and lost to #4 Penn St.
GIFT: In 2013, as a #6, hosted and beat #3 Penn St.
GIFT: In 2014, as a #7, hosted and beat #2 WV.
In 2015, as a #11, lost Rd. 1 at #6 USF.
In 2016, didn't qualify.
In 2017, as a #8, lost Rd. 1 to #9 Cal at Baylor.

In summary, LSU was gifted 3 straight hostings. They won two of them.
Next, they lost as they should have.
Next, they didn't qualify.
Next, they lost the 8/9 game as the 8.


This confused me also Laughing Fargas has not done any better than holly and her LSU teams have been exactly the same each year with a different crop. The scouting report still reads "Let Them Shoot" And kill them on the glass .



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Davis4632



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PostPosted: 01/31/18 12:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
PUmatty wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
I think Nikki is finally getting her program built. She's well into that period of her coaching employment at LSU, and conventional wisdom says it takes 7 years to do that. Every year that her team has gone to the big dance, they've gotten farther than they "deserve to" according to the pundits, and I think that says more than just sheer luck on their part.


What conventional wisdom is that?


That it takes 7 years to build a program. It takes four years for the new head coach to have a team that is made up of players they recruited and another 3 recruiting classes of players that didn't play with the previous coach players. I have acutally read comments from some Tennessee fans that used to blame some of Holly woes on having Pat's players on her team.




Last edited by Davis4632 on 01/31/18 12:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
Davis4632



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PostPosted: 01/31/18 12:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
Double post.
summertime blues



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PostPosted: 01/31/18 1:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
Davis4632 wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
I think Nikki is finally getting her program built. She's well into that period of her coaching employment at LSU, and conventional wisdom says it takes 7 years to do that. Every year that her team has gone to the big dance, they've gotten farther than they "deserve to" according to the pundits, and I think that says more than just sheer luck on their part.


What conventional wisdom is that?


That it takes 7 years to build a program. It takes four years for the new head coach to have a team that is made up of players they recruited and another 3 recruiting classes of players that didn't play with the previous coach players. I have acutally read comments from some Tennessee fans that used to blame some of Holly woes on having Pat's players on her team.


Thank you. I have actually had the CW as my sig like for about a year, except that I learned it as "It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 years to build a program." Shows that most people don't read sig lines. Funny thing, I do notice them.



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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
PUmatty



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PostPosted: 01/31/18 1:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
summertime blues wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
I think Nikki is finally getting her program built. She's well into that period of her coaching employment at LSU, and conventional wisdom says it takes 7 years to do that. Every year that her team has gone to the big dance, they've gotten farther than they "deserve to" according to the pundits, and I think that says more than just sheer luck on their part.


What conventional wisdom is that?


That it takes 7 years to build a program. It takes four years for the new head coach to have a team that is made up of players they recruited and another 3 recruiting classes of players that didn't play with the previous coach players. I have acutally read comments from some Tennessee fans that used to blame some of Holly woes on having Pat's players on her team.


Thank you. I have actually had the CW as my sig like for about a year, except that I learned it as "It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 years to build a program." Shows that most people don't read sig lines. Funny thing, I do notice them.


You keep using the term "conventional wisdom," but I don't think it means what you think it means. Putting something in your signature line does not make it "conventional wisdom."
summertime blues



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PostPosted: 01/31/18 6:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
PUmatty wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
I think Nikki is finally getting her program built. She's well into that period of her coaching employment at LSU, and conventional wisdom says it takes 7 years to do that. Every year that her team has gone to the big dance, they've gotten farther than they "deserve to" according to the pundits, and I think that says more than just sheer luck on their part.


What conventional wisdom is that?


That it takes 7 years to build a program. It takes four years for the new head coach to have a team that is made up of players they recruited and another 3 recruiting classes of players that didn't play with the previous coach players. I have acutally read comments from some Tennessee fans that used to blame some of Holly woes on having Pat's players on her team.


Thank you. I have actually had the CW as my sig like for about a year, except that I learned it as "It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 years to build a program." Shows that most people don't read sig lines. Funny thing, I do notice them.


You keep using the term "conventional wisdom," but I don't think it means what you think it means. Putting something in your signature line does not make it "conventional wisdom."


It has been around as a saying and generally well known for a lot of years. I have now attributed it to "conventional wisdom" in my sig line. However, if you have a different definition of what conventional wisdom means, please feel free to elaborate.



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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 01/31/18 9:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
summertime blues wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
I think Nikki is finally getting her program built. She's well into that period of her coaching employment at LSU, and conventional wisdom says it takes 7 years to do that. Every year that her team has gone to the big dance, they've gotten farther than they "deserve to" according to the pundits, and I think that says more than just sheer luck on their part.


What conventional wisdom is that?


That it takes 7 years to build a program. It takes four years for the new head coach to have a team that is made up of players they recruited and another 3 recruiting classes of players that didn't play with the previous coach players. I have acutally read comments from some Tennessee fans that used to blame some of Holly woes on having Pat's players on her team.


Thank you. I have actually had the CW as my sig like for about a year, except that I learned it as "It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 years to build a program." Shows that most people don't read sig lines. Funny thing, I do notice them.


You keep using the term "conventional wisdom," but I don't think it means what you think it means. Putting something in your signature line does not make it "conventional wisdom."


It has been around as a saying and generally well known for a lot of years. I have now attributed it to "conventional wisdom" in my sig line. However, if you have a different definition of what conventional wisdom means, please feel free to elaborate.


It's funny that for purportedly being so common, you're the only one who spouts it or evidently who believes it.

You could put in your signature line that it's in the Bible and it would still be bullshit. Do you truly think putting that in every post you write give it a scintila of validity?
ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 01/31/18 9:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
Duplicate
summertime blues



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PostPosted: 01/31/18 9:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
And I guess you think by replying twice your post has some validity, even though you overwrote the second one with “duplicate”?

I refuse to get in a silly battle with you or anyone else over a saying that’s been around for quite awhile, whether you choose to believe it or not.



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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
Queenie



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PostPosted: 02/01/18 12:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
summertime blues wrote:
And I guess you think by replying twice your post has some validity, even though you overwrote the second one with “duplicate”?

I refuse to get in a silly battle with you or anyone else over a saying that’s been around for quite awhile, whether you choose to believe it or not.


Do you happen to know who originally said it? I'm curious now.



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summertime blues



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PostPosted: 02/01/18 1:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
Queenie wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
And I guess you think by replying twice your post has some validity, even though you overwrote the second one with “duplicate”?

I refuse to get in a silly battle with you or anyone else over a saying that’s been around for quite awhile, whether you choose to believe it or not.


Do you happen to know who originally said it? I'm curious now.


I really don't. I've just heard it for years.I heard it first from my dad, I think, and he was a university professor, but he was talking about sports teams when he was on the UT athletic board, so he was probably quoting someone else.



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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
willtalk



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PostPosted: 02/01/18 3:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
summertime blues wrote:
willtalk wrote:
Perhaps I am crazy! Laughing again, but Holly is a blatant example of the prevalent nepotism in WCBB. She was Pats personal pick to replace her as the Vol coach. My point about Gail Goestenkors evaluation of Boyle as one of the best coaches in WCBB was just another example of that. While Boyle is probably not as bad as Holly, she certainly is not one of the best coaches in WCBB. I followed her career at Cal and she was close to being fired before she resigned to take the Virgina job.

Just because someone is a good coach does not mean that they are good judges of what it takes to be a good coach. It seems that they might also have an issue with objectivity when it comes to their own assistants.

Holly got a job that appears to be totally over her head, because her mentor Pat recommended her. Now we might give Pat a pass because of her illness, but I really doubt that had so much to do with it. Good assistants do not always good coaches make.

But then again I might just be "crazy" to dare challenge the opinion of the hall of fame legend "Summits" perspective on her assistants competence to coach. But just don't pay any attention to either me or Ravendogs rants about inbreeding in WCBB- We all just crazy!


You're welcome to submit your resume any time you think you can do a better job. Phillip Fulmer is the AD at Tennessee and you can probably find his email at ut.edu


It's not about if I could do a better job, but if there were other coaches available at the time they hired her that might have done better. You understand this is not about if she or other assistant coaches who were hired on their head coaches recommendations were good people or good at the jobs they did. Holly might have learned Pats system, but her personality might not be right to carry it out.

At this point in time I do not have the experience to do a better job than Holly, but given a year under Pat or any other top level coach I am sure that I could. It's all about recognizing your own limitations and working to either improve or mitigating those short comings. Your advising me to apply to the AD is totally absurd. All it does is prove my point. Even if I were a really good coach ( which I am not) my chance to get hired would be less than a snowballs chance in Hell. There were plenty of other coaches available who already had successful head coaching experiences that were not even considered because of the in house hiring that catered to a legends recommendations. Heck the LSU coach would have been a far better hire.

This is not about Holly as a person, but her suitability as coach of a storied program such as Tenn. Of course that also reflects on Summits judgement on her recommendation. But I have also stated that being a good coach does not mean that you are a good judge of competency in respect to positions that you have never witnessed the people you recommended perform in. Most coaches tend to be methodologists who have trouble thinking outside the box.

Actually it's not Holly that I believe I could do a better job than, but the person who hired her. It was they who made the mistake.
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PostPosted: 02/01/18 4:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
summertime blues wrote:
Queenie wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
And I guess you think by replying twice your post has some validity, even though you overwrote the second one with “duplicate”?

I refuse to get in a silly battle with you or anyone else over a saying that’s been around for quite awhile, whether you choose to believe it or not.


Do you happen to know who originally said it? I'm curious now.


I really don't. I've just heard it for years.I heard it first from my dad, I think, and he was a university professor, but he was talking about sports teams when he was on the UT athletic board, so he was probably quoting someone else.


You should ask him how many football or MBB coaches Tennessee has given seven years unless they were winning big. I think you'll find the answer is zero.

Maybe you should put in your signature line "some colleges give seven years to crappy coaches in sports about which they don't give a shit". Then you'll be closer to reality.
summertime blues



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PostPosted: 02/01/18 5:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
willtalk wrote:



Actually it's not Holly that I believe I could do a better job than, but the person who hired her. It was they who made the mistake.


That person's long gone, several ADs ago. Try again. Better luck next time. But if you really think that, you could submit your resume to Chancellor Beverly Davenport next time there's an AD vacancy, which might be awhile.



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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
summertime blues



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PostPosted: 02/01/18 5:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
ArtBest23 wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
Queenie wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
And I guess you think by replying twice your post has some validity, even though you overwrote the second one with “duplicate”?

I refuse to get in a silly battle with you or anyone else over a saying that’s been around for quite awhile, whether you choose to believe it or not.


Do you happen to know who originally said it? I'm curious now.


I really don't. I've just heard it for years.I heard it first from my dad, I think, and he was a university professor, but he was talking about sports teams when he was on the UT athletic board, so he was probably quoting someone else.


You should ask him how many football or MBB coaches Tennessee has given seven years unless they were winning big. I think you'll find the answer is zero.

Maybe you should put in your signature line "some colleges give seven years to crappy coaches in sports about which they don't give a shit". Then you'll be closer to reality.


For all I know, or YOU either, it could have been General Neyland, or Knute Rockne, either of which are next to God in the respective pantheons of their respective institutions, who first said it. I tried to look it up but so far have been unsuccessful. You are just being your usual self and I'm through with you. Go fry ice.



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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
Queenie



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PostPosted: 02/01/18 6:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
So I did a bit of Googling, because that's how I roll. The first half seems to be a common quote, with the oldest attribution I was able to find being from 1983 (as an aside, the article is worth a read, if only for its familiarity). The second half looks to be attributable to Butch Jones and also seems to be SEC-specific, who... I would not use as a role model for building a program.

I would also think that that seven years would be applicable to building from the ground up, not building on a strong foundation like LSU or Tennessee had.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 02/01/18 7:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
Wait.

You're telling me the "support" for this claim is an article about women's soccer in a Boston College student newspaper from 35 years ago ( less than 4 years after Title IX was passed)?

And it was used by a coach who has never lasted more than 4 years as a HC anywhere?

That's obviously "conventional wisdom". Rolling Eyes Laughing Laughing Laughing

By the way, the linked article about Jones's comment laughed at his 6 or 7 years claim, concluding : "Simply put: You don’t get six or seven years to build a program in the SEC."
Queenie



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PostPosted: 02/01/18 8:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
I said the oldest attribution I was able to find. It may be older, but not dated. Googling the phrase "it takes three years to build a team", in quotation marks will come up with several different uses of the phrase in several different sports. I think that would qualify as conventional wisdom if it's coming up in soccer, hockey, football, and basketball.

The seven-year thing, however, is an unrealistic expectation for any coach.



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summertime blues



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PostPosted: 02/01/18 11:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
Queenie wrote:
So I did a bit of Googling, because that's how I roll. The first half seems to be a common quote, with the oldest attribution I was able to find being from 1983 (as an aside, the article is worth a read, if only for its familiarity). The second half looks to be attributable to Butch Jones and also seems to be SEC-specific, who... I would not use as a role model for building a program.

I would also think that that seven years would be applicable to building from the ground up, not building on a strong foundation like LSU or Tennessee had.


All i’ll say to that is that not only was my dad on the athletic board long before Butch Jones ever showed his face on the UT campus, he was in the ground before that man ever coached at UT team. So it wasn’t original with him.



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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
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willtalk



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PostPosted: 02/02/18 1:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote
summertime blues wrote:
willtalk wrote:



Actually it's not Holly that I believe I could do a better job than, but the person who hired her. It was they who made the mistake.


That person's long gone, several ADs ago. Try again. Better luck next time. But if you really think that, you could submit your resume to Chancellor Beverly Davenport next time there's an AD vacancy, which might be awhile.


Obviously the Chancellor thought they were incompetent as well since they are no longer there. Let me explain once again the core of the issue we are talking about. It is NOT WHETHER ANY OF US POSTERS COULD DO A BETTER JOB THAN THE PEOPLE WE ARE COMMENTING ON. rather if those people should be in their positions. Many of us are perfectly capable of recognizing whether people are doing an effective job in their positions without being able to do better ourselves. We do that everytime we vote in or out an elected official. We do that everytime we spend money on going to an entertainment event. Being able to act, sing, dance, or do brain surgery is not an essential criteria for being allowed to critique people effectiveness in those professions. When people are in the top tier of their professions they are expected to produce at the standard of a top tier professional. We are not commenting about an amature volunteer but someone who gets paid to do a job. Your response " If you think you can do better" is suited too and appropriate for a volunteer but not a highly paid professional.

To use the response." if you think you can do a better job" , which you have now used twice, in this sort of case, is totally absurd. It seems that you have a problem with people expressing their opinions on whether Holly is suited for her job. Let me clue you in on something. This is a site which purpose is for people to exchange perspectives and express their opinions on things related to WCBB. No one is expected to submit a resume as to their qualifications to do so. Responses such as your are puerile and down right silly.

To be truthful, I personally do not care the least if Holly remains as coach of the Vols. I only used her as another example of good coaches ( Pat and Gail) not necessarily being able to be objective judges as to the qualifications of their assistants. It was an opportunity to respond to being called "Crazy" for using a different coach ( Gail G ) in a past post as an example of the inherent nepotistic inbreeding in WCBB. This is not just about those coaches but a pattern that has existed in WCBB. When the Womens game operated at a much lower profile than it is now it was less obvious. But now that the sport is attracting more competent coaches via increased salaries the talent level of applicants makes that sort of nepotistic hiring no longer necessary or practical.
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PostPosted: 02/02/18 8:19 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote
willtalk wrote:
...To be truthful, I personally do not care the least if Holly remains as coach of the Vols. I only used her as another example of good coaches ( Pat and Gail) not necessarily being able to be objective judges as to the qualifications of their assistants. It was an opportunity to respond to being called "Crazy" for using a different coach ( Gail G ) in a past post as an example of the inherent nepotistic inbreeding in WCBB. This is not just about those coaches but a pattern that has existed in WCBB. When the Womens game operated at a much lower profile than it is now it was less obvious. But now that the sport is attracting more competent coaches via increased salaries the talent level of applicants makes that sort of nepotistic hiring no longer necessary or practical.


I would submit that this is not a pattern in WCBB per se, but a pattern throughout business demonstrated by both men and women. When bosses hire assistants or successors, they go to people they know, people they are comfortable with, people whose loyalty they want to reward, and people they think will do the job the way the bosses want it done. "Better the devil you know..." Top tier CEO's and people in the spotlight break from this pattern most frequently, but otherwise it's very prevalent.
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