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Genero36
Joined: 24 Apr 2005 Posts: 11188
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 10911
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Posted: 10/30/17 10:02 am ::: |
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Cop a plea and spill all the tea, Paul. |
Works for me, yall!
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Stonington_QB
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 Posts: 756 Location: Siege Perilous
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Posted: 10/30/17 12:28 pm ::: |
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justintyme wrote: |
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/amp/trump-campaign-adviser-george-papadopoulos-pleads-guilty-lying-n815596
And so it begins. Remember the whole line of "no evidence"? Well, this is that, and it is huge. |
UUUUUUUUGGGGGEEE!
_________________ Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9770
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Posted: 10/30/17 6:29 pm ::: |
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Allen Dershowitz was just on Fox News and he made a distinction between "attempt at collusion" and collusion, but also said something that I have heard at least one other talking head say - collusion is not a federal crime ??? Somone on CNN later said that "collusion is not a crime, but conspiracy is".
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sambista
Joined: 25 Sep 2004 Posts: 16951 Location: way station of life
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Posted: 10/30/17 7:54 pm ::: |
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tfan wrote: |
Allen Dershowitz was just on Fox News and he made a distinction between "attempt at collusion" and collusion, but also said something that I have heard at least one other talking head say - collusion is not a federal crime ??? |
i don't think so, and i can't be as precise as i think is required to draw the line where a crime has occurred, but i think the legitimate crime would be if a foreign entity were involved in an american election. so if the trump campaign acquired "something" to use as a tool, as it were, in the election, that would be a crime. opposition research is done all the time, but the difference being investigated here, i think, is wheher any of it came from a foreign entity.
maybe a better explanation:
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/07/12/what-is-collusion-215366
_________________ no justice, no peace.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Posted: 10/30/17 7:55 pm ::: |
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tfan wrote: |
Allen Dershowitz was just on Fox News and he made a distinction between "attempt at collusion" and collusion, but also said something that I have heard at least one other talking head say - collusion is not a federal crime ??? Somone on CNN later said that "collusion is not a crime, but conspiracy is". |
Pretty much.
Treason is another federal crime.
_________________ Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9770
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Posted: 10/31/17 2:29 am ::: |
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Slate has an article titled "Trump Should Be Scared". That seemed way premature since Manafort was not indicted on campaign-related activities. But the article is talking about the idea that The Trump Organization has hidden foreign-earned money from the IRS over the years.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 21046
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Posted: 10/31/17 3:32 am ::: |
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tfan wrote: |
Slate has an article titled "Trump Should Be Scared". That seemed way premature since Manafort was not indicted on campaign-related activities. |
Well, again, that's not what matters to Mueller. Matters to CNN of course. But Trump should be very scared. Manafort being charged is all about flipping Manafort to get to Trump. They could have indicted Manafort for something he did 30 years ago as long as the statute of limitations wasn't a factor. It's just the fact that he's being personally prosecuted for serious crimes of any kind that would force Manafort's hand in trading damning information and testimony against Trump. I actually think it would be very unlikely that Mueller would have indicted the guy if he didn't already know exactly, and I mean EXACTLY, what he wants and fully expects to get from Manafort. No way Mueller is going down in history as having made someone like Manafort the ultimate target and scapegoat for the entire Russia investigation here in the era of Donald Trump.
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sambista
Joined: 25 Sep 2004 Posts: 16951 Location: way station of life
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Posted: 10/31/17 5:32 am ::: |
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jammerbirdi wrote: |
I actually think it would be very unlikely that Mueller would have indicted the guy if he didn't already know exactly, and I mean EXACTLY, what he wants and fully expects to get from Manafort. |
this is the nut of it. the more you know about mueller's resume, the more you know this is true.
but the real topper was the timing of playing the papadopoulos card. that's the news that had trump caught off guard, had him "seething" yesterday, had him so glued to tv, according to one report, that he didn't show up to work till shortly after noon.
this 30-year-old neophyte could be the key to upending a whole bunch of people. trump? well, as he himself says, we'll see.
_________________ no justice, no peace.
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sambista
Joined: 25 Sep 2004 Posts: 16951 Location: way station of life
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004 Posts: 16380 Location: Chicago
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Posted: 10/31/17 9:23 am ::: |
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sambista wrote: |
jammerbirdi wrote: |
I actually think it would be very unlikely that Mueller would have indicted the guy if he didn't already know exactly, and I mean EXACTLY, what he wants and fully expects to get from Manafort. |
this is the nut of it. the more you know about mueller's resume, the more you know this is true.
but the real topper was the timing of playing the papadopoulos card. that's the news that had trump caught off guard, had him "seething" yesterday, had him so glued to tv, according to one report, that he didn't show up to work till shortly after noon.
this 30-year-old neophyte could be the key to upending a whole bunch of people. trump? well, as he himself says, we'll see. |
Who knows what will happen, but here is one take I saw: Throwing the book at Manafort on the same day you announce the plea deal with Papadopoulous is a message to everyone else showing what happens if you cooperate and what happens if you don't.
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sambista
Joined: 25 Sep 2004 Posts: 16951 Location: way station of life
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Posted: 10/31/17 10:04 am ::: |
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PUmatty wrote: |
sambista wrote: |
jammerbirdi wrote: |
I actually think it would be very unlikely that Mueller would have indicted the guy if he didn't already know exactly, and I mean EXACTLY, what he wants and fully expects to get from Manafort. |
this is the nut of it. the more you know about mueller's resume, the more you know this is true.
but the real topper was the timing of playing the papadopoulos card. that's the news that had trump caught off guard, had him "seething" yesterday, had him so glued to tv, according to one report, that he didn't show up to work till shortly after noon.
this 30-year-old neophyte could be the key to upending a whole bunch of people. trump? well, as he himself says, we'll see. |
Who knows what will happen, but here is one take I saw: Throwing the book at Manafort on the same day you announce the plea deal with Papadopoulous is a message to everyone else showing what happens if you cooperate and what happens if you don't. |
!!!
_________________ no justice, no peace.
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sambista
Joined: 25 Sep 2004 Posts: 16951 Location: way station of life
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Posted: 10/31/17 10:05 am ::: |
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one trump-supporting pundit is trying to diminish papadopoulis by calling him a "coffee boy." hahahahahahahahahaha!
_________________ no justice, no peace.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 21046
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Posted: 10/31/17 11:08 am ::: |
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sambista wrote: |
PUmatty wrote: |
sambista wrote: |
jammerbirdi wrote: |
I actually think it would be very unlikely that Mueller would have indicted the guy if he didn't already know exactly, and I mean EXACTLY, what he wants and fully expects to get from Manafort. |
this is the nut of it. the more you know about mueller's resume, the more you know this is true.
but the real topper was the timing of playing the papadopoulos card. that's the news that had trump caught off guard, had him "seething" yesterday, had him so glued to tv, according to one report, that he didn't show up to work till shortly after noon.
this 30-year-old neophyte could be the key to upending a whole bunch of people. trump? well, as he himself says, we'll see. |
Who knows what will happen, but here is one take I saw: Throwing the book at Manafort on the same day you announce the plea deal with Papadopoulous is a message to everyone else showing what happens if you cooperate and what happens if you don't. |
!!! |
Exactly. And the prime targeted recipient of that message is Manafort himself.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 21046
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Posted: 10/31/17 11:48 am ::: |
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Something I hadn't thought about until right now over breakfast.
So who has Manafort been associated with for the last 20 or so years? Oligarchs, gangsters, and all the way up to authoritarian regimes and, of course, the Russians themselves, ex-KGB, and even possibly Putin.
This is a seriously lethal cast of characters. Stick a pin in that for a second.
So how and why did Donald Trump come to pick Paul Manafort to be his campaign manager? Who put that name in the Donald's head? We know Trump and his family have their own connections with Russia. So even if he came up with it through just knowing the players that alone would be creepy enough.
But what if... it was something else. What if, and I'm not saying I believe this, but what if (did I say that enough already?) Manafort and the Russians were much closer than we already know they were? What if they basically placed him there in the campaign, at Trump's behest even? Or at whose exact fucking behest we just don't know at this point.
So there's a group of people over there in Russia who are thinking, we've got our own president of the united stets of ooh-merica now. We can not let this bag man Paul Manafort cooperate with the actual US government and bring down the Trump administration, which for all we know can be anything from a potential asset under development all the way up to the Kremlin West Wing.
So back to the lethality of certain groups and their methods etc. Manafort could be fearing for his life. And in THIS case, unlike Mafia prosecutions where in you put someone in witness protection and the mob can't find them because, well, their just the fucking mob from New Jersey and shit, in THIS case, you have a whole different level of intelligence gathering capabilities etc. So even if Manafort cooperates the world is set right, Manafort himself might end up one day ingesting a little polonium with his kale and wheat grass smoothie.
A little Vitamin P there, Mr. Pauly?
I need to go back to bed.
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Stonington_QB
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 Posts: 756 Location: Siege Perilous
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Posted: 10/31/17 12:30 pm ::: |
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You know, some of you are willing to believe anything because you want it to be true. Not because it IS true. Like Trump and the nonexistent Russia connection that has already been thoroughly disproven. We are coming up on a year now of the complete denial of reality on behalf of a rapidly shrinking numbers of "believers." Those believers know who they are. But by all means, don't let me stop those of you who are wrapped up in conspiracy theories stop you from listening to whoever it is putting these misguided thoughts into your heads. This entire thread is going to be GREAT for some laughs in a few weeks (or months) from now.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004 Posts: 16380 Location: Chicago
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Stonington_QB
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 Posts: 756 Location: Siege Perilous
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Posted: 10/31/17 2:00 pm ::: |
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PUmatty wrote: |
Stonington_QB wrote: |
Like Trump and the nonexistent Russia connection that has already been thoroughly disproven. |
I will *shock* agree with you that there is some gun-jumping going on. But, what I quote above could not be further from the truth. Seriously, where do people even get things like this |
I mean, I can post plenty of links about the Fusion GPS dossier, and pick your source, but at this point is it really even necessary? Everyone knows there was no collusion to interfere with the elections on the President's behalf. Robert Mueller has already went public that he was even not under investigation. Whatever Paul Manafort did had absolutely nothing to do with the Trump campaign, and STILL people hang on to these hopes and dreams that somehow this is going to result in a conviction against President Trump. It won't. If Paul Manafort (or whoever) commited a crime, there will be a trial and a conviction. Nobody cares what happens to Paul Manafort. But it's funny that there are those of you who are hoping for some sort of a conviction based on no crimes committed whatsoever, while at the same time completely dismissing the real connections between Hillary and the Kremlin, simply because the same sources who are misleading them about Trump are also circling the wagons for Hillary. And why? Why continue to defend her? And yes, I know that Hillary's crimes are not the topic of this thread. And her crimes are not an excuse for other people's actions. But you all just hang on, and hope that there is something there when in fact there is not.
Some other people might still go down in this investigation. But what happens if they end up not being the people you WANT? The world has moved on from this fake dossier on Trump. Ask yourselves, when are you going to wake up and realize you've been the useful idiots rather than the enlightened ones you think you all are?
I mean, don't take my word for it. By all means, continue hoping for something to come out of this that results in imprisonment or even impeachment. I'm just saying, some of us are going to think it's really funny when it doesn't pan out that way.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004 Posts: 16380 Location: Chicago
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Posted: 10/31/17 2:08 pm ::: |
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Stonington_QB wrote: |
PUmatty wrote: |
Stonington_QB wrote: |
Like Trump and the nonexistent Russia connection that has already been thoroughly disproven. |
I will *shock* agree with you that there is some gun-jumping going on. But, what I quote above could not be further from the truth. Seriously, where do people even get things like this |
I mean, I can post plenty of links about the Fusion GPS dossier, and pick your source, but at this point is it really even necessary? Everyone knows there was no collusion to interfere with the elections on the President's behalf. Robert Mueller has already went public that he was even not under investigation. Whatever Paul Manafort did had absolutely nothing to do with the Trump campaign, and STILL people hang on to these hopes and dreams that somehow this is going to result in a conviction against President Trump. It won't. If Paul Manafort (or whoever) commited a crime, there will be a trial and a conviction. Nobody cares what happens to Paul Manafort. But it's funny that there are those of you who are hoping for some sort of a conviction based on no crimes committed whatsoever, while at the same time completely dismissing the real connections between Hillary and the Kremlin, simply because the same sources who are misleading them about Trump are also circling the wagons for Hillary. And why? Why continue to defend her? And yes, I know that Hillary's crimes are not the topic of this thread. And her crimes are not an excuse for other people's actions. But you all just hang on, and hope that there is something there when in fact there is not.
Some other people might still go down in this investigation. But what happens if they end up not being the people you WANT? The world has moved on from this fake dossier on Trump. Ask yourselves, when are you going to wake up and realize you've been the useful idiots rather than the enlightened ones you think you all are?
I mean, don't take my word for it. By all means, continue hoping for something to come out of this that results in imprisonment or even impeachment. I'm just saying, some of us are going to think it's really funny when it doesn't pan out that way. |
That's what a thought. The MAGA media is a strange and very dangerous place.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
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Posted: 10/31/17 2:29 pm ::: |
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Seeing as though someone has already pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about not colluding with the Russians, and is now working with the investigation, saying that it has been "disproven" is categorically false.
But I am fine with you believing whatever it is you want to believe. Once Mueller has finished his investigation we can discuss how wrong you were.
If you want to listen to a great take on what is happening, listen to Fox News' own Shep Smith. He nailed it yesterday without putting on a tinfoil hat one way or another.
_________________ ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
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Genero36
Joined: 24 Apr 2005 Posts: 11188
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Posted: 10/31/17 6:00 pm ::: |
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Poll: Vast majority of Trump voters say he should stay in office even if Russia collusion is proven
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Nearly 80 percent of Trump voters said they think the president should stay in office even if collusion is proven between his campaign and Russia, according to a survey released Tuesday, even while support among all voters for his impeachment hits a new high.
According to a new poll from the Democratic-leaning firm Public Policy Polling, 79 percent of people who voted for President Trump say he should remain even if collusion is proven, and 75 percent said the entire Russia story is "fake news." |
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/poll-vast-majority-of-trump-voters-say-he-should-stay-in-office-even-if-russia-collusion-is-proven/ar-AAuheEM?li=BBnb7Kz
_________________ I'm all for the separation of church and hate.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9770
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Posted: 10/31/17 6:51 pm ::: |
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jammerbirdi wrote: |
So how and why did Donald Trump come to pick Paul Manafort to be his campaign manager? Who put that name in the Donald's head? We know Trump and his family have their own connections with Russia. So even if he came up with it through just knowing the players that alone would be creepy enough.
But what if... it was something else. What if, and I'm not saying I believe this, but what if (did I say that enough already?) Manafort and the Russians were much closer than we already know they were? What if they basically placed him there in the campaign, at Trump's behest even? Or at whose exact fucking behest we just don't know at this point.
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The New York Times has an article about how Manafort got hired by the campaign. He knew Trump's friend Tom Barrack and told Barrack he wanted to work for the campaign. Barrack helped to get him hired. But it wasn't a stretch hire - he applied for the position of Republican Party Convention Manager, a position he held in 1996 with Dole and 1988 with Bush. He was also involved in the Republican convention at lower positions for both Reagan and Ford. The Times shows the two-page memo that Manafort sent to the campaign applying for the position.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9770
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Posted: 10/31/17 6:57 pm ::: |
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jammerbirdi wrote: |
tfan wrote: |
Slate has an article titled "Trump Should Be Scared". That seemed way premature since Manafort was not indicted on campaign-related activities. |
Well, again, that's not what matters to Mueller. Matters to CNN of course. |
The non-Republicans on CNN are convinced that Trump is guilty of something with Russia, and making statements about what Mueller is doing behind the scenes and what he knows. Although their statements seem to be much more, if not totally, influenced by wishful thinking rather than inside knowledge. Personally, I would put more money on a charge against Trump being for The Trump Organization dealings with regard to tax evasion, since it appears that Mueller can make charges outside the scope of the investigation with regard to Russia.
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