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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010
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 Posted: 05/30/17 12:20 am ::: |
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| merlina wrote: |
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
It's a weird year for PGs. Whalen isn't scoring much but still sets the pace for the Lynx and averages 5.2 assists per game. Boyd appeared possibly ready to break out but had the season-ending injury. Bird is older but still doing fairly well. Jefferson is coming off injury. Thomas is an ok player on a struggling team. Diggins is regaining her form on a young, up-and-down team. Toliver is on a new team still building chemistry. Chelsea Gray is playing well but it remains to be seen if that holds. Danielle Robinson is on a new team coming off of injury. Slooty just returned to Chicago and her team in terrible. Clarendon is a somewhat emerging player on an up-and-down team.
There's not much coherence from last year to this. Maybe that's part of why the play around the league has been so erratic in quality, even compared to other starts to the season in years past. |
Bird is doing better than "fairly well" and not just for someone her age. |
Thank you. She is 2nd (only behind Cappie) in the league in assists with 8 per game but Clarendon averages 3,7 turnovers per game while Bird averages 1 turnover per game.. That is just insane.
Only thing so far is that her shot hasnt been falling great like last season but setting up her teammates and controlling the game she has been a BIG reason why the Storm are playing so well.
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"Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 05/30/17 6:27 am ::: |
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Ok, who spoke the name Voldemort?*
*not the actual name, but you get the idea.
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Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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Nixtreefan
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Jet Jaguar
Joined: 11 Feb 2014
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| Posted: 05/30/17 5:29 pm ::: Re: WNBA point guards |
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| merlina wrote: |
| Jet Jaguar wrote: |
6'1" for men is approximately equal to 5'6"-5'7" for women. |
Where are you getting that comparison? |
Average height for women is 5'4. Average height for a man is 5'10. Use proportion formula. Or you can go by the heights of centers. Centers are generally around 7' for men and are 6'5" for women. Either way it comes out about the same.
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Jet Jaguar
Joined: 11 Feb 2014
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Jet Jaguar
Joined: 11 Feb 2014
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| Posted: 05/30/17 5:48 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Jet Jaguar wrote: |
Being able to take care of the ball under pressure is also very important though. Controlling the pace of the game. Being able to initiate and execute the plays. Who to get the ball to (e.g. who is hot?). All stuff that Clay brought up. I agree passing ability is very important and probably one of the more important aspects, but it's just a part of being a great point guard. You can be a great passer but not be a great point guard. One example that comes to mind is Samantha Logic, who was a PG for Iowa and had a cup of coffee in the W (at least in training camp). She was an EXCELLENT passer. But she lacked in many of the other categories that we discussed. The overall result was she is really not a great point guard at the higher levels. |
Thanks for proving my point.
Logic was NOT an "excellent" passer for the very reasons I explained. And any idiot can figure out "who's hot" but be completely incapable of actually delivering the ball at the right moment in excellent scoring position.
Being able to dribble the ball under pressure is pretty elementary. You shouldn't even be discussing anyone as a point guard who can't do that. It's a basic element. It certainly isn't a distinction between a good and bad pg. |
She is an excellent passer. So was Janel McCarville. But I don't want McCarville as my point guard. LOL. A great point guard is a combination of things. Handling ball pressure is very important. And not every point guard in the league is good at it. And some are good at it and some aren't, like everything else. If you got to give it up all the time or you have to dribble with your back to the defender all the time, that is a detriment for a good point guard, as you can't see the floor as well or initiate the offense. Game management is really important too, which you ignored in my post. You can be the greatest passer in the world, but if you can't control the pace and execute plays, you're not a good PG.
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WfanFrJmp
Joined: 24 May 2016
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| Posted: 05/30/17 11:13 pm ::: |
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Interesting discussion! Good, solid PGs are not easy to come by in this league. The lack of them is quite clearly demonstrated by so many teams trying (with varying degrees of success) to turn 2 guards into a team's primary distributor.
Since this is a challenge for the league and although DT is saying she wants be around for 2020, I wouldn't be surprised if neither she, Birdy nor Whalen are available or playing at Olympic level at that time. It will be difficult to say goodbye to them but it is going to happen at some point so who does that leave us from the W pool of guards? I get pissed every time I think about how they composed the last few teams without making sure they were passing the torch and preparing new guards... as had been done in the past. Now players like Sloot, Toliver...players who (and maybe I'm guessing) didn't think they would get a shot at being on a USA squad are not eligible because they opted to play for other countries in qualifying tournaments.
So my question is, who will lead team USA in the next tournaments? Who are the solid, proven guards that can step into that spot? January, Sims, Diggins and D. Rob have been in the last few pools but none were chosen. Is Jefferson the heir-apparent? What do y'all think?
I was thinking this question was related enough to the current topic but please let me know if it would be better for me to start this in another topic instead. Thank you for indulging!
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 05/31/17 12:20 am ::: |
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| I think someone has stepped up in LA who might be part of the next wave of National Team guards. In 18 and 20 I'd like to see C. Gray and Jefferson brought in as the future of the PG position.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 05/31/17 9:11 am ::: |
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Chelsea Gray meets a lot of the criteria, I think -- and she has good size as well.
I like Jefferson too, and both Diggins and Sims appear to be capable of playing at that level. I see Jewell Loyd as more of a two guard but presumably she could supply some minutes at the point.
The strength of the US team going forward appears to be on the wing (Maya Moore, Breanna Stewart, EDD, etc.) with Griner protecting the rim and demanding defensive attention, and so the above guards probably bring enough to keep the gold medal streak going.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 05/31/17 5:12 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
Chelsea Gray meets a lot of the criteria, I think -- and she has good size as well.
I like Jefferson too, and both Diggins and Sims appear to be capable of playing at that level. I see Jewell Loyd as more of a two guard but presumably she could supply some minutes at the point.
The strength of the US team going forward appears to be on the wing (Maya Moore, Breanna Stewart, EDD, etc.) with Griner protecting the rim and demanding defensive attention, and so the above guards probably bring enough to keep the gold medal streak going. |
Confession: Chelsea Gray became my favorite player ever while playing at Duke, barely edging out Mo Currie. I tried to advocate for her as the best PG in the country in college, but seemed to come out #3 behind Diggins and Sims according to popular opinion. Glad to see her getting noticed and valued appropiately.
Every single game I attended when she played at Duke (which was all games she played at Duke), there was at least one 'jaw-dropping' moment, with the 'oohs' and 'aahs' rippling through the crowd. Now it's happening in the WNBA, with replays of the best, most creative passes.
Team USA will be lucky to have her and we'll all be lucky to watch her playing with the best representing our country. Her and MoJeff would certainly be a contrast of styles, big & crafty vs little speedster. Both can hit the three as needed to spread the floor. Sims and Diggins are both "right there" but needing to prove it on the floor this season.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 05/31/17 6:03 pm ::: |
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Wait. You're saying Diggins has something to "prove" vis a vis Chelsea Gray?
Wake me when Gray is an All Star or First Team All WNBA. Maybe you need to go back and look at their respective professional numbers.
In her third year Gray has finally broken into a starting lineup and you're already getting a little carried away.
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willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012
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| Posted: 05/31/17 7:07 pm ::: |
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| Being All NBA or an All Star does not necessarily meet the same criteria as what they might be looking for as the point on the USA team. I think court vision, passing and generally being a good facilitator might be of greater emphasis. They have enough scoring on the team already. Of course now that the All Star voting is not dominated by the fans that might be more in line. Of course two years is a long time and quite a bit can change by then.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 05/31/17 8:13 pm ::: |
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One of the issues Gray already has in LA is that she tends to call her own number a little too often. Her usage rate is at 26% at the moment, which when you're surrounded by Parker, Ogwumike, Lavender et al is a little scarily high for the point guard.
Obviously it's early in the season so that number may even out downwards, and sometimes that number can be inflated for primary ballhandlers because the ball's often in their hands when the clock's running out and someone has to make something happen. But with Team USA the point guards tend to be even more of a facilitator and game manager. I think she still has a fair way to go to be able to lean more in that direction. |
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 05/31/17 8:18 pm ::: |
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| There is room for Jefferson, Diggins, and C. Gray on the National Team. Gray and Diggins are both big enough to play some minutes at the SG spot (Where Loyd will probably start), and you'd have 3 options at the point. (Sims could possibly make it as a combo guard as well.) I'm not sure all five make it (especially if DT tries to hang on for one more Olympics) but a 5 guard rotation of Diggins, Loyd, Jefferson, C. Gray and Sims doesn't seem that out of the question. Previously passed over vets like D-Rob and January might put up a fight, and other youngster like K. Mitchell, T. Mitchell, Deshields, Plum (if she starts to improve in the W) if J. Canada or L. Brown kill it next year they might get into the mix, and maybe the ever improving Hayes might try to break into that guard rotation as well, but the top 5 would probably work out great if they ended up being the National team guards for the next few years.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 05/31/17 8:23 pm ::: |
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| Hayes is probably out after that quick trip to represent Azerbaijan a couple of years ago. I don't know if the 3x3 Tournament thing they played in officially counts for FIBA, but USA Basketball historically tends to shun anyone who chooses to add another passport whether they're officially blocked or not. |
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 05/31/17 9:48 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| Hayes is probably out after that quick trip to represent Azerbaijan a couple of years ago. I don't know if the 3x3 Tournament thing they played in officially counts for FIBA, but USA Basketball historically tends to shun anyone who chooses to add another passport whether they're officially blocked or not. |
I don't know the eligibility rules, but that "3x3 tournament thing" is most definitely a FIBA organized, run, and sanctioned event.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 05/31/17 10:04 pm ::: |
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| J-Spoon wrote: |
| There is room for Jefferson, Diggins, and C. Gray on the National Team. Gray and Diggins are both big enough to play some minutes at the SG spot (Where Loyd will probably start), and you'd have 3 options at the point. (Sims could possibly make it as a combo guard as well.) I'm not sure all five make it (especially if DT tries to hang on for one more Olympics) but a 5 guard rotation of Diggins, Loyd, Jefferson, C. Gray and Sims doesn't seem that out of the question. Previously passed over vets like D-Rob and January might put up a fight, and other youngster like K. Mitchell, T. Mitchell, Deshields, Plum (if she starts to improve in the W) if J. Canada or L. Brown kill it next year they might get into the mix, and maybe the ever improving Hayes might try to break into that guard rotation as well, but the top 5 would probably work out great if they ended up being the National team guards for the next few years. |
You mean you could only come up with fifteen names? I'm sure you can throw another dozen or so out there if you think about it for ten seconds or so. 
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 05/31/17 11:15 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| J-Spoon wrote: |
| There is room for Jefferson, Diggins, and C. Gray on the National Team. Gray and Diggins are both big enough to play some minutes at the SG spot (Where Loyd will probably start), and you'd have 3 options at the point. (Sims could possibly make it as a combo guard as well.) I'm not sure all five make it (especially if DT tries to hang on for one more Olympics) but a 5 guard rotation of Diggins, Loyd, Jefferson, C. Gray and Sims doesn't seem that out of the question. Previously passed over vets like D-Rob and January might put up a fight, and other youngster like K. Mitchell, T. Mitchell, Deshields, Plum (if she starts to improve in the W) if J. Canada or L. Brown kill it next year they might get into the mix, and maybe the ever improving Hayes might try to break into that guard rotation as well, but the top 5 would probably work out great if they ended up being the National team guards for the next few years. |
You mean you could only come up with fifteen names? I'm sure you can throw another dozen or so out there if you think about it for ten seconds or so. |
Yeah that is pretty much how they do it, start with a large pool and then narrow it down. And here's some emoticons right back at you
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 05/31/17 11:29 pm ::: |
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| J-Spoon wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| J-Spoon wrote: |
| There is room for Jefferson, Diggins, and C. Gray on the National Team. Gray and Diggins are both big enough to play some minutes at the SG spot (Where Loyd will probably start), and you'd have 3 options at the point. (Sims could possibly make it as a combo guard as well.) I'm not sure all five make it (especially if DT tries to hang on for one more Olympics) but a 5 guard rotation of Diggins, Loyd, Jefferson, C. Gray and Sims doesn't seem that out of the question. Previously passed over vets like D-Rob and January might put up a fight, and other youngster like K. Mitchell, T. Mitchell, Deshields, Plum (if she starts to improve in the W) if J. Canada or L. Brown kill it next year they might get into the mix, and maybe the ever improving Hayes might try to break into that guard rotation as well, but the top 5 would probably work out great if they ended up being the National team guards for the next few years. |
You mean you could only come up with fifteen names? I'm sure you can throw another dozen or so out there if you think about it for ten seconds or so. |
Yeah that is pretty much how they do it, start with a large pool and then narrow it down. And here's some emoticons right back at you |
We're not talking about U16 tryouts here. They don't start with 150 in camp for the Olympic team.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7421
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 05/31/17 11:33 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Wait. You're saying Diggins has something to "prove" vis a vis Chelsea Gray?
Wake me when Gray is an All Star or First Team All WNBA. Maybe you need to go back and look at their respective professional numbers.
In her third year Gray has finally broken into a starting lineup and you're already getting a little carried away. |
Excuuuuuuse me. Coming off injury, SkyDig had a subpar season last year. Chelsea got a ring. So, YEAH, Skylar DOES have something to prove on the floor THIS year. Time to remove the stick you sat on.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 05/31/17 11:47 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
One of the issues Gray already has in LA is that she tends to call her own number a little too often. Her usage rate is at 26% at the moment, which when you're surrounded by Parker, Ogwumike, Lavender et al is a little scarily high for the point guard.
Obviously it's early in the season so that number may even out downwards, and sometimes that number can be inflated for primary ballhandlers because the ball's often in their hands when the clock's running out and someone has to make something happen. But with Team USA the point guards tend to be even more of a facilitator and game manager. I think she still has a fair way to go to be able to lean more in that direction. |
Actually, I agree with this. If Chelsea is top game scorer with only a couple of assists, then she's not playing her game. One proviso - CP3 transformed herself into facilitator last season, feeding Nneka all the way to MVP. If she's passing to Chelsea who has the hot hand, telling her to shoot it, Chelsea's gonna do what the vet tells her to do. What could be "worrisome" might be an ability to become the role that's needed in any given game. She does shoot the rock at a decent percent. When Chelsea and Alexis Jones were on the floor together, they'd take turns running point, which scrambled the defense, not knowing who was starting the play.
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010
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| Posted: 06/01/17 12:14 am ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
One of the issues Gray already has in LA is that she tends to call her own number a little too often. Her usage rate is at 26% at the moment, which when you're surrounded by Parker, Ogwumike, Lavender et al is a little scarily high for the point guard.
Obviously it's early in the season so that number may even out downwards, and sometimes that number can be inflated for primary ballhandlers because the ball's often in their hands when the clock's running out and someone has to make something happen. But with Team USA the point guards tend to be even more of a facilitator and game manager. I think she still has a fair way to go to be able to lean more in that direction. |
Yeah i agree i would like to see her facilitate a little more because if she doesnt do it while playing with star players like Parker and Nneka then i wont see her doing it more when she plays for team USA.
But Diggins has a similar problem but she has less to work with though. But she tends to dribble too much while not creating for others.
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"Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 06/01/17 2:00 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| J-Spoon wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| J-Spoon wrote: |
| There is room for Jefferson, Diggins, and C. Gray on the National Team. Gray and Diggins are both big enough to play some minutes at the SG spot (Where Loyd will probably start), and you'd have 3 options at the point. (Sims could possibly make it as a combo guard as well.) I'm not sure all five make it (especially if DT tries to hang on for one more Olympics) but a 5 guard rotation of Diggins, Loyd, Jefferson, C. Gray and Sims doesn't seem that out of the question. Previously passed over vets like D-Rob and January might put up a fight, and other youngster like K. Mitchell, T. Mitchell, Deshields, Plum (if she starts to improve in the W) if J. Canada or L. Brown kill it next year they might get into the mix, and maybe the ever improving Hayes might try to break into that guard rotation as well, but the top 5 would probably work out great if they ended up being the National team guards for the next few years. |
You mean you could only come up with fifteen names? I'm sure you can throw another dozen or so out there if you think about it for ten seconds or so. |
Yeah that is pretty much how they do it, start with a large pool and then narrow it down. And here's some emoticons right back at you |
We're not talking about U16 tryouts here. They don't start with 150 in camp for the Olympic team. |
Someone asked who were the next PG in line for the National Team I suggested C. Gray and Jefferson
You and another poster brought up Sims and Diggins, I agreed that they will be right there. I also proposed that Loyd was pretty much a shoe in the SG spot. Those are the five most likely.
Then I threw out some vets that have been late cuts who might still be young enough to put up a fight, and since two to four years is a long time some young players near the top of their generation who could possible work their way in. I don't see why that list garnered an eye roll. There are plenty of guards I like who I didn't mention because I don't think they have much of a chance such as Rodgers, Clarendon, C. Williams, L. Allen, Faulkner, KML, Chong, Christmas, Latta, Hill, etc because I actually did think about for about 10 seconds.
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ArtBest23
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