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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: 02/09/17 2:54 pm ::: |
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| hyperetic wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| Like all great things, immigration has to be continuously promoted as great. |
Its...promoted...on...the Statue of Liberty...
It was considered great for such a long time, whether the first inhabitants or the forced immigrants disagreed. |
Yes, tt's promoted on the poem on the Statue of Liberty. The Statue was supposed to represent freedom when given to us - as in a people free from the rule of a king or dictator. But that poem is not part of our constitution, not an official document. And that poem is not honored by modern Americans. For instance, 33% of the people in Mexico want to live in the USA according to a poll. Yet we don't allow that 40 million huddled masses yearning to breath free to come to the USA. Although, given our odd status quo, most Americans would be fine if those 40 million came here illegally and were hired illegally.
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The industrial era brought mass immigration. There was a little dustup then but not to the extent today.
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Right now the fight is over illegal immigration. Most Americans are still for illegal immigration. I don't think there is any dustup now over legal immigration, as there was back in the big waves in the early 1900's.
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Immigration is part of what helped build this country and made it what it is today.
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I think it was the conquering and slaughter of the natives by the English that "made America great". Australia and Canada also became wealthy modern countries on that basis after being founded by the leading country of that era.
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In general, who are the people complaining about immigration these days? |
The majority of people don't publicly complain about legal immigration and there is little criticism of illegal immigration. I think a lot of that is because it is not just constantly promoted, but also considered a sacred cow. Sacred cow meaning that it is considered above criticism.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 02/09/17 3:36 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
Huh? We are talking about whether or not something is "great". Your original position was that is something is "great" people won't need to be convinced of it. But if we are just discussing opinion, this position becomes meaningless nonsense. |
Believe it or not, the opinion of people can tell us if something is great when they experience the thing in question. It wouldn't be valid on something where scientific theory or scientific data is involved in order to understand and appreciate what is taking place. We don't need "experts", the rich and their sycophants to chime in on whether or not immigration is great. And if you were to try and make a case for infinite immigration - there would be little if anything objective in your case in favor. You would discount subjective opinion with subjective opinion.
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The whole point of advertising is to change people's opinion on a matter, to convince them of something, or to give them additional information beyond the scope of their personal experiences. If everyone believed something to already be "great" there would be no need for it. So if this is all you were arguing, and your conclusion was simply that not everyone loves immigration, and you were not trying to insinuate any conclusions about the real value of immigration and how "great" it objectively is, then okay. Water is also wet. |
Water is not wet is not a valid analogy since it isn't with regard to an opinion. People all like raises is.
We have no public criticism of infinite legal immigration to any significant extent and haven't had it for about a century. And yet immigration is constantly promoted. So to be accurate - they are trying to maintain opinion and maintain the sacred cow nature of immigration - not change minds on it (with regard to infinite legal immigration). But now with Trump talking deportation they have also begun joining legal and illegal immigration in order to promote and change minds on illegal immigration, at least on past illegal immigration.
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However, if when you wrote "If it was great, everyone would love it", you were making a claim about its intrinsic value, then you are using argumentum ad populum. Not all objectively "great" things are seen as such by everyone. |
"argumentum ad populum" is claiming something is true (or false) based on everyone (or most) believing it to be true (or false). In this case everyone does believe it to be true that legal immigration is a positive an should be continued forever (except for a tiny minority) so only you can use it. It isn't also defined as "saying something must be true (or false) because some (not most) people believe it true (or false)".
I should have stuck with - "if it is great, they wouldn't have to keep telling us it is great". The true situation, with regard to legal immigration, is that it isn't challenged and they want to not only keep it from being challenged, but maintain it's status as "unchallengeable" (i.e. a sacred cow). With illegal immigration it can be said that they are (incredibly) trying to change a few minds to support that as well - so that could be stated as "if illegal immigration was great, it would be legal". Except that the illegality is why people favor illegal immigration - workforce working for less than legal wages and less than legal conditions. None of the sanctuary city mayors or any other vocal champions of illegal immigrants ever calls for the immigration quotas to be increased or immigration law to be enforced. They are happy with the law and happy with it being broken.
Last edited by tfan on 02/09/17 11:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 02/09/17 5:13 pm ::: |
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I think it's great when corporations run ads reminding people "Don't act like such bigots. Immigration and diversity built this country and continue to help make it great."
Sometimes those reminders are necessary to counter the noise from the xenophobes and haters.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9816
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| Posted: 02/09/17 11:54 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
I think it's great when corporations run ads reminding people "Don't act like such bigots. Immigration and diversity built this country and continue to help make it great."
Sometimes those reminders are necessary to counter the noise from the xenophobes and haters. |
By promoting diversity you are putting your racism on display.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 02/10/17 11:50 am ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
I think it's great when corporations run ads reminding people "Don't act like such bigots. Immigration and diversity built this country and continue to help make it great."
Sometimes those reminders are necessary to counter the noise from the xenophobes and haters. |
By promoting diversity you are putting your racism on display. |
Hmm, according to the Oxford dictionary, racism is "Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior"
So against what race exactly am I exhibiting prejudice, discrimination or antagonism by reason of promoting diversity?
I find your statement nonsensical.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9816
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| Posted: 02/12/17 2:13 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
I think it's great when corporations run ads reminding people "Don't act like such bigots. Immigration and diversity built this country and continue to help make it great."
Sometimes those reminders are necessary to counter the noise from the xenophobes and haters. |
By promoting diversity you are putting your racism on display. |
Hmm, according to the Oxford dictionary, racism is "Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior"
So against what race exactly am I exhibiting prejudice, discrimination or antagonism by reason of promoting diversity?
I find your statement nonsensical. |
Which is the best group in your opinion?
a) 100 white people
b) 100 black people
c) 100 Chinese people
d) 33 white people, 33 black people, and 34 Chinese people
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 02/12/17 9:34 am ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
I think it's great when corporations run ads reminding people "Don't act like such bigots. Immigration and diversity built this country and continue to help make it great."
Sometimes those reminders are necessary to counter the noise from the xenophobes and haters. |
By promoting diversity you are putting your racism on display. |
Hmm, according to the Oxford dictionary, racism is "Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior"
So against what race exactly am I exhibiting prejudice, discrimination or antagonism by reason of promoting diversity?
I find your statement nonsensical. |
Which is the best group in your opinion?
a) 100 white people
b) 100 black people
c) 100 Chinese people
d) 33 white people, 33 black people, and 34 Chinese people |
It seems the only person who thinks in those terms is you. You want to call someone a racist, look in the mirror.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 02/12/17 1:09 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
I think it's great when corporations run ads reminding people "Don't act like such bigots. Immigration and diversity built this country and continue to help make it great."
Sometimes those reminders are necessary to counter the noise from the xenophobes and haters. |
By promoting diversity you are putting your racism on display. |
Hmm, according to the Oxford dictionary, racism is "Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior"
So against what race exactly am I exhibiting prejudice, discrimination or antagonism by reason of promoting diversity?
I find your statement nonsensical. |
Which is the best group in your opinion?
a) 100 white people
b) 100 black people
c) 100 Chinese people
d) 33 white people, 33 black people, and 34 Chinese people |
Why do you list race in both a and b, and a country in c?
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Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9816
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| Posted: 02/12/17 4:34 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
I think it's great when corporations run ads reminding people "Don't act like such bigots. Immigration and diversity built this country and continue to help make it great."
Sometimes those reminders are necessary to counter the noise from the xenophobes and haters. |
By promoting diversity you are putting your racism on display. |
Hmm, according to the Oxford dictionary, racism is "Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior"
So against what race exactly am I exhibiting prejudice, discrimination or antagonism by reason of promoting diversity?
I find your statement nonsensical. |
Which is the best group in your opinion?
a) 100 white people
b) 100 black people
c) 100 Chinese people
d) 33 white people, 33 black people, and 34 Chinese people |
It seems the only person who thinks in those terms is you. You want to call someone a racist, look in the mirror. |
Wrong, you were the one who spoke in racist terms. You brought up diversity and said it "built this country" as if diversity is better than non-diversity. You brought your racism out in the open suggesting that there is a difference among the races.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9816
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| Posted: 02/12/17 4:38 pm ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
I think it's great when corporations run ads reminding people "Don't act like such bigots. Immigration and diversity built this country and continue to help make it great."
Sometimes those reminders are necessary to counter the noise from the xenophobes and haters. |
By promoting diversity you are putting your racism on display. |
Hmm, according to the Oxford dictionary, racism is "Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior"
So against what race exactly am I exhibiting prejudice, discrimination or antagonism by reason of promoting diversity?
I find your statement nonsensical. |
Which is the best group in your opinion?
a) 100 white people
b) 100 black people
c) 100 Chinese people
d) 33 white people, 33 black people, and 34 Chinese people |
Why do you list race in both a and b, and a country in c? |
Because no one says "yellow people".
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
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| Posted: 02/12/17 4:43 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
I think it's great when corporations run ads reminding people "Don't act like such bigots. Immigration and diversity built this country and continue to help make it great."
Sometimes those reminders are necessary to counter the noise from the xenophobes and haters. |
By promoting diversity you are putting your racism on display. |
Hmm, according to the Oxford dictionary, racism is "Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior"
So against what race exactly am I exhibiting prejudice, discrimination or antagonism by reason of promoting diversity?
I find your statement nonsensical. |
Which is the best group in your opinion?
a) 100 white people
b) 100 black people
c) 100 Chinese people
d) 33 white people, 33 black people, and 34 Chinese people |
It seems the only person who thinks in those terms is you. You want to call someone a racist, look in the mirror. |
Wrong, you were the one who spoke in racist terms. You brought up diversity and said it "built this country" as if diversity is better than non-diversity. You brought your racism out in the open suggesting that there is a difference among the races. |
This might be the most specious bit of nonsense I have read in some time. Favoring diversity in culture, experience, and viewpoint is not racism. This logic reminds me of a billboard I saw recently in Arkansas that said "anti-racism is another word for anti-white".
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 16393
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: 02/12/17 8:45 pm ::: |
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| I assume that it is not allowed on this site for a poster to call another poster racist, right?
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 02/12/17 8:57 pm ::: |
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| PUmatty wrote: |
| I assume that it is not allowed on this site for a poster to call another poster racist, right? |
Probably not. But, Trump supporters aren't racist, or bigoted.
They are sticking up for their white/Euro heritage, the natural patriarchal order of things, and their Christian belief system, all of which have been under ruthless attack since 1492.
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Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9816
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| Posted: 02/12/17 9:48 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
I think it's great when corporations run ads reminding people "Don't act like such bigots. Immigration and diversity built this country and continue to help make it great."
Sometimes those reminders are necessary to counter the noise from the xenophobes and haters. |
By promoting diversity you are putting your racism on display. |
Hmm, according to the Oxford dictionary, racism is "Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior"
So against what race exactly am I exhibiting prejudice, discrimination or antagonism by reason of promoting diversity?
I find your statement nonsensical. |
Which is the best group in your opinion?
a) 100 white people
b) 100 black people
c) 100 Chinese people
d) 33 white people, 33 black people, and 34 Chinese people |
It seems the only person who thinks in those terms is you. You want to call someone a racist, look in the mirror. |
Wrong, you were the one who spoke in racist terms. You brought up diversity and said it "built this country" as if diversity is better than non-diversity. You brought your racism out in the open suggesting that there is a difference among the races. |
This might be the most specious bit of nonsense I have read in some time. Favoring diversity in culture, experience, and viewpoint is not racism. This logic reminds me of a billboard I saw recently in Arkansas that said "anti-racism is another word for anti-white". |
I am clearly talking about diversity of race/ethnicity, not diversity of culture, experience, and viewpoint.
But I would like to hear how different cultures makes us better.
Last edited by tfan on 02/12/17 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9816
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| Posted: 02/12/17 9:55 pm ::: |
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| PUmatty wrote: |
| I assume that it is not allowed on this site for a poster to call another poster racist, right? |
I agree with Justintyme who once said that everyone is racist to some extent. But my bad, I should have said suggesting diversity was a strength, while a time-honored and mainstream view, is - in my opinion - a racist statement since it suggests that there is a difference between races/ethnicities. Sorry ArtBest23.
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norwester
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 6375
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: 02/13/17 12:33 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| I assume that it is not allowed on this site for a poster to call another poster racist, right? |
I agree with Justintyme who once said that everyone is racist to some extent. But my bad, I should have said suggesting diversity was a strength, while a time-honored and mainstream view, is - in my opinion - a racist statement since it suggests that there is a difference between races/ethnicities. Sorry ArtBest23. |
Difference doesn't mean that one is better or worse than another. Therefore valuing differences doesn't equate to racism (i.e. thinking one is better than the other due to solely race).
I think it's a biological/scientific/objective fact that diverse systems are more resilient and "healthy" than non-diverse systems. It has nothing to do with judgment about the worth of each organism. It's just how systems survive and thrive.
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Don't you know the plural of "anecdote" is "data"?
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9816
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| Posted: 02/13/17 2:57 pm ::: |
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| norwester wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| I assume that it is not allowed on this site for a poster to call another poster racist, right? |
I agree with Justintyme who once said that everyone is racist to some extent. But my bad, I should have said suggesting diversity was a strength, while a time-honored and mainstream view, is - in my opinion - a racist statement since it suggests that there is a difference between races/ethnicities. Sorry ArtBest23. |
Difference doesn't mean that one is better or worse than another. Therefore valuing differences doesn't equate to racism (i.e. thinking one is better than the other due to solely race).
I think it's a biological/scientific/objective fact that diverse systems are more resilient and "healthy" than non-diverse systems. It has nothing to do with judgment about the worth of each organism. It's just how systems survive and thrive. |
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that anyone says the races are "different but equal". And if the races are different how do we determine they are equal? We would need to identify the differences you see, and then give them a value and add them up to see if the differences really are equal. Saying the races are different would also make discrimination in hiring a valued practice. You would hire the race who's differences from the other race were suited to that occupation.
I don't think "diverse system" applies, since we are talking about a single species. But if a diverse collection of a species survives better, I think that would only be with respect to disease resistance or the issues that arise from in-breeding.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 02/13/17 3:36 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| tfan wrote: |
| norwester wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| I assume that it is not allowed on this site for a poster to call another poster racist, right? |
I agree with Justintyme who once said that everyone is racist to some extent. But my bad, I should have said suggesting diversity was a strength, while a time-honored and mainstream view, is - in my opinion - a racist statement since it suggests that there is a difference between races/ethnicities. Sorry ArtBest23. |
Difference doesn't mean that one is better or worse than another. Therefore valuing differences doesn't equate to racism (i.e. thinking one is better than the other due to solely race).
I think it's a biological/scientific/objective fact that diverse systems are more resilient and "healthy" than non-diverse systems. It has nothing to do with judgment about the worth of each organism. It's just how systems survive and thrive. |
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that anyone says the races are "different but equal". And if the races are different how do we determine they are equal? We would need to identify the differences you see, and then give them a value and add them up to see if the differences really are equal. Saying the races are different would also make discrimination in hiring a valued practice. You would hire the race who's differences from the other race were suited to that occupation.
I don't think "diverse system" applies, since we are talking about a single species. But if a diverse collection of a species survives better, I think that would only be with respect to disease resistance or the issues that arise from in-breeding. |
Utter nonsense.
All dogs are a single species as well, but we celebrate the incredible diversity of size, color, temperament and other differences within the single species Canis lupus familiaris, not to mention the differences between individuals even of the same breed. You can look at a litter of puppies and they have different color fur, different sizes, different temperments, but they are not just a single species, and not just siblings, they're twins.
Nobody said all diverse humans are equal in all respects. They are equal in the respect and dignity they deserve. But even blond women from Sweden have unlimited number of "differences" from one to another. That doesn't make them "unequal" unless you are talking about a single characteristic. Then they mIght be "unequal" in height or weight or strength or age or running speed, or agility, or IQ, or musical aptitude, or ambition, or political philosophy, or any number of characteristics. Some differences derive from nature, some from nurture or environment, some from a combination. Doesn't make them "unequal" as humans. But those differences represent diversity.
There's no reason to be "adding up" or valuing the millions of differences. What's the point in that? It has nothing to do with being "equal" because equal doesn't mean identical.
I can't tell if you truly don't understand the obvious, or if you know but are just being argumentative.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9816
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| Posted: 02/13/17 5:12 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Utter nonsense.
All dogs are a single species as well, but we celebrate the incredible diversity of size, color, temperament and other differences within the single species Canis lupus familiaris, not to mention the differences between individuals even of the same breed. You can look at a litter of puppies and they have different color fur, different sizes, different temperments, but they are not just a single species, and not just siblings, they're twins.
Nobody said all diverse humans are equal in all respects. They are equal in the respect and dignity they deserve. But even blond women from Sweden have unlimited number of "differences" from one to another. That doesn't make them "unequal" unless you are talking about a single characteristic. Then they mIght be "unequal" in height or weight or strength or age or running speed, or agility, or IQ, or musical aptitude, or ambition, or political philosophy, or any number of characteristics. Some differences derive from nature, some from nurture or environment, some from a combination. Doesn't make them "unequal" as humans. But those differences represent diversity.
There's no reason to be "adding up" or valuing the millions of differences. What's the point in that? It has nothing to do with being "equal" because equal doesn't mean identical.
I can't tell if you truly don't understand the obvious, or if you know but are just being argumentative. |
I don't see where talking about dogs helps make the case of "different but equal" in humans. A German Shepard is a great guard dog. A poodle is not. A bloodhound is great for helping to solve crimes, a cocker spaniel is not. An Australian shepherd can keep your farm animals from wandering astray, a dachshund cannot. Those aren't superficial differences that show all dogs species are equal in ability. What human jobs can only be done by a subset of the races/ethnicites?
If the differences between races "don't make us unequal as humans" then the differences aren't anything significant, that is, none of the qualities adds to the economic/artistic/intellectual performance of a country.
Talking about "differences between Swedish blondes" doesn't address the topic, except to counter your claim that we need ethnic diversity in order to get superficial (but interesting) differences. We are talking about racial/ethnic differences which are usually claimed (and you appeared to make the claim) to make a mixed race/ethnicity group better (as in will perform better) than a group of a single race/ethnicity. Now if the claim is "more interesting in appearance" that is one thing, but if it is "the group will function better", then there should be a reason given as to why.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 02/13/17 5:52 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Utter nonsense.
All dogs are a single species as well, but we celebrate the incredible diversity of size, color, temperament and other differences within the single species Canis lupus familiaris, not to mention the differences between individuals even of the same breed. You can look at a litter of puppies and they have different color fur, different sizes, different temperments, but they are not just a single species, and not just siblings, they're twins.
Nobody said all diverse humans are equal in all respects. They are equal in the respect and dignity they deserve. But even blond women from Sweden have unlimited number of "differences" from one to another. That doesn't make them "unequal" unless you are talking about a single characteristic. Then they mIght be "unequal" in height or weight or strength or age or running speed, or agility, or IQ, or musical aptitude, or ambition, or political philosophy, or any number of characteristics. Some differences derive from nature, some from nurture or environment, some from a combination. Doesn't make them "unequal" as humans. But those differences represent diversity.
There's no reason to be "adding up" or valuing the millions of differences. What's the point in that? It has nothing to do with being "equal" because equal doesn't mean identical.
I can't tell if you truly don't understand the obvious, or if you know but are just being argumentative. |
I don't see where talking about dogs helps make the case of "different but equal" in humans. A German Shepard is a great guard dog. A poodle is not. A bloodhound is great for helping to solve crimes, a cocker spaniel is not. An Australian shepherd can keep your farm animals from wandering astray, a dachshund cannot. Those aren't superficial differences that show all dogs species are equal in ability. What human jobs can only be done by a subset of the races/ethnicites?
If the differences between races "don't make us unequal as humans" then the differences aren't anything significant, that is, none of the qualities adds to the economic/artistic/intellectual performance of a country.
Talking about "differences between Swedish blondes" doesn't address the topic, except to counter your claim that we need ethnic diversity in order to get superficial (but interesting) differences. We are talking about racial/ethnic differences which are usually claimed (and you appeared to make the claim) to make a mixed race/ethnicity group better (as in will perform better) than a group of a single race/ethnicity. Now if the claim is "more interesting in appearance" that is one thing, but if it is "the group will function better", then there should be a reason given as to why. |
Different types of dogs are NOT DIFFERENT SPECIES!
All dogs from Pomeranian to Great Danes to Dachshunds to mutts are a single species. They are ALL Canis lupus familiaris. Selective breeding has been used to emphasize certain characteristics within individuals of the species. Just as geographic and societal separation has resulted in certain characteristics being emphasized within individuals of the species Homo sapiens.
The premise for your position is completely wrong. Thus not surprising that your conclusion is also wrong.
The differences among various dogs are exactly like the differences among various humans. They are simply the variations and diversity that exist among individuals of any species.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9816
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| Posted: 02/13/17 5:59 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Utter nonsense.
All dogs are a single species as well, but we celebrate the incredible diversity of size, color, temperament and other differences within the single species Canis lupus familiaris, not to mention the differences between individuals even of the same breed. You can look at a litter of puppies and they have different color fur, different sizes, different temperments, but they are not just a single species, and not just siblings, they're twins.
Nobody said all diverse humans are equal in all respects. They are equal in the respect and dignity they deserve. But even blond women from Sweden have unlimited number of "differences" from one to another. That doesn't make them "unequal" unless you are talking about a single characteristic. Then they mIght be "unequal" in height or weight or strength or age or running speed, or agility, or IQ, or musical aptitude, or ambition, or political philosophy, or any number of characteristics. Some differences derive from nature, some from nurture or environment, some from a combination. Doesn't make them "unequal" as humans. But those differences represent diversity.
There's no reason to be "adding up" or valuing the millions of differences. What's the point in that? It has nothing to do with being "equal" because equal doesn't mean identical.
I can't tell if you truly don't understand the obvious, or if you know but are just being argumentative. |
I don't see where talking about dogs helps make the case of "different but equal" in humans. A German Shepard is a great guard dog. A poodle is not. A bloodhound is great for helping to solve crimes, a cocker spaniel is not. An Australian shepherd can keep your farm animals from wandering astray, a dachshund cannot. Those aren't superficial differences that show all dogs species are equal in ability. What human jobs can only be done by a subset of the races/ethnicites?
If the differences between races "don't make us unequal as humans" then the differences aren't anything significant, that is, none of the qualities adds to the economic/artistic/intellectual performance of a country.
Talking about "differences between Swedish blondes" doesn't address the topic, except to counter your claim that we need ethnic diversity in order to get superficial (but interesting) differences. We are talking about racial/ethnic differences which are usually claimed (and you appeared to make the claim) to make a mixed race/ethnicity group better (as in will perform better) than a group of a single race/ethnicity. Now if the claim is "more interesting in appearance" that is one thing, but if it is "the group will function better", then there should be a reason given as to why. |
Different types of dogs are NOT DIFFERENT SPECIES!
All dogs from Pomeranian to Great Danes to Dachshunds to mutts are a single species. They are ALL Canis lupus familiaris.
The premise for you position is completely wrong. Thus not surprising that your conclusion is also wrong. |
Just substitute whatever the name is for a difference in dogs. If it is "breed" substitute "breed" for "species". It doesn't matter what the difference is called. You were using it as the dog equivalent to race.
What are you referring to as my premise, and what do you think is wrong?
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The differences among various dogs are exactly like the differences among various humans. They are simply the variations and diversity that exist among individuals of any species. |
You have pivoted and changed the subject. We are talking about differences between "dog breeds" not differences between individual dogs. Because we are talking about any differences between races/ethnicities, not the differences between individual humans.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 02/13/17 6:12 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
Just substitute whatever the name is for a difference in dogs. If it is "breed" substitute "breed" for "species". It doesn't matter what the difference is called. You were using it as the dog equivalent to race.
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I understand how it's inconvenient for you, but you can't "substitute" breed for species. Saying it "doesn't matter" doesn't alter that it very much matters. These terms actually have meanings. Your position is simply indefensible. The difference in size between a Dachshund and a Great Dane is no different than the difference in height between Mugsy Bogues and Manute Bole. They're not different speicies. They're just different individuals. It's just the normal variations in characteristics among any group of individuals. The difference between a black poodle and a white poodle is just a difference in characteristics among two dogs, just like the difference between a Caucasian and an Inuit is simply the difference in characteristics between two humans. In neither case is there any different species indicated by the different pigmentation.
You evidently have a belief that is simply contrary to scientific truth.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9816
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| Posted: 02/13/17 11:10 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
Just substitute whatever the name is for a difference in dogs. If it is "breed" substitute "breed" for "species". It doesn't matter what the difference is called. You were using it as the dog equivalent to race.
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I understand how it's inconvenient for you, but you can't "substitute" breed for species. |
I understand that you are grasping at straws, but I certainly can correct species to breed. I was clearly talking about the difference between dog breeds.
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| Saying it "doesn't matter" doesn't alter that it very much matters. These terms actually have meanings. |
You know what term I meant. Saying "species" is different than "breed" versus discussing the topic looks like you have given up trying to justify your diversity comment.
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| Your position is simply indefensible. The difference in size between a Dachshund and a Great Dane is no different than the difference in height between Mugsy Bogues and Manute Bole. They're not different species. |
Unfortunately, whether or not they are different species has nothing to do with the discussion here, which is with regard to you touting diversity among humans. Are you claiming your diversity comment was not with regard to racial/ethnic diversity?
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They're just different individuals. It's just the normal variations in characteristics among any group of individuals. The difference between a black poodle and a white poodle is just a difference in characteristics among two dogs just like the difference between a Caucasian and an Inuit is simply the difference in characteristics between two humans. In neither case is there any different species indicated by the different pigmentation.
You evidently have a belief that is simply contrary to scientific truth.
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Are you giving up on trying to defend your diversity statement?
Last edited by tfan on 02/13/17 11:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 02/13/17 11:26 pm ::: |
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You are applying a significance to the word "breed" that doesn't exist. Your position is specious. I suggest you go read a couple texts on genetics and come back after you have some clue what the hell you're talking about.
I'm not wasting any more time trying to educate you.
Maybe you could start a new thread trying to convince us the world is flat.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9816
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| Posted: 02/13/17 11:30 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| You are applying a significance to the word "breed" that doesn't exist. Your position is specious. I suggest you go read a couple texts on genetics and come back after you have some clue what the hell you're talking about. |
I am sure that someone looking for a dog that could track a killer from a crime scene would see a significance to the word breed, even if you can't. But it is a distraction. You brought up dogs in trying to make some kind of case for your diversity comment, which is the only reason we are talking about them. I am perfectly willing to only talk about humans.
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I'm not wasting any more time trying to educate you.
Maybe you could start a new thread trying to convince us the world is flat. |
I guess that is how a former lawyer says he doesn't want to try and defend his comment about diversity.
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