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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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 Posted: 08/18/13 11:28 am ::: |
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| patsweetpat wrote: |
| The WNBA stars who travel to Russia are employed by extremely wealthy and powerful magnates, many of whom have strong connections in the government (those players' own salaries, incidentally, are subsidized by the Russian government). And those players are, in large part, sheltered and protected by those powerful employers. So I think these WNBA stars will find themselves in far, far, far less danger (vis a vis this law) than your average, disempowered Russian dissident or activist. |
That's all true, completely valid. But out on the streets there are bigots who don't know or care about any of the above. Still, you're of course right that we should care about "the average, disempowered Russian dissident or activist" and not just WNBA stars. What's happening at the moment in Russia is hideous, more people will be killed in homophobic attacks and other types of ugliness, and many more lives will be shattered.
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RedEqualsLuck
Joined: 28 May 2005
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| Posted: 08/18/13 2:33 pm ::: |
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| RedEqualsLuck wrote: |
The non-white players and visitors to Russia have also been dealing with increased risk on the streets, but that hasn't bothered any of those players in Russia yet. |
Did I miss where there was a new law passed by Russia banning advocating for the rights of folks with non-white skin?[/quote]
Sorry Bob - I thought I got all the extras out to highlight the original comment.... I know you didn't write that.
REL
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 08/18/13 2:50 pm ::: |
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| UofDel_Alum wrote: |
| This issue is just beginning and is only going to get worse for the Russian political figures. Just yesterday two women Russian olympic 4 x 100 runners kissed after receiving their gold medals. They said it was in response to Russian laws. I hope and pray they will be unharmed when they go back to Russia. |
It was two runners on the 4X400 relay team, and the World Championships were in Russia.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 08/18/13 2:51 pm ::: |
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| RedEqualsLuck wrote: |
| RedEqualsLuck wrote: |
The non-white players and visitors to Russia have also been dealing with increased risk on the streets, but that hasn't bothered any of those players in Russia yet. |
Did I miss where there was a new law passed by Russia banning advocating for the rights of folks with non-white skin? |
Sorry Bob - I thought I got all the extras out to highlight the original comment.... I know you didn't write that.
REL[/quote]
Thanks, REL, for understanding. I"m a writer and I care a lot about what appears under my name. And I'm using my real name here, not some Internet alias.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 08/18/13 2:54 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| What's happening in Russia is hideous and very distressing. And it could be downright dangerous for ANY women's basketball player from the U.S. Certainly possible that bigots in Russia might target any of these women as being gay, whether it's true or not. |
I have a serious question, I know in the US if a female competes in certain sports (basketball, softball, field hockey, etc) people perceive to be gay, is that the same in other countries as well?
To clarify I know sports has nothing to do with being gay or straight, but that is the perceived stereotype in America.
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UofDel_Alum
Joined: 10 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 08/18/13 3:17 pm ::: |
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I have been involved in women sports for a long time. I have never been
under the impression people assumed you were gay if you were a women
playing a sport.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 08/18/13 3:20 pm ::: |
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| UofDel_Alum wrote: |
I have been involved in women sports for a long time. I have never been
under the impression people assumed you were gay if you were a women
playing a sport. |
For one it's not just any sport, it's mainly the sports I listed above. And I've heard it all the time, I took a class that had a section specifically geared toward how female athletes were perceived, especially in the early years and how they are today.
Edited to add: there is a reason female athletes still try to play up their feminine features, the WNBA and other pro women's leagues still try to use the "family" aspect of their players and you don't here many pro women's league advertise about the good things that are happening in the lives of their gay players (marriage, children, etc.) because they are trying to get rid of the stereotype that female athletes (mainly in basketball and softball) are gay. Even women's soccer can be thrown in, but there are more "out" players and they seem to have been embraced more than other sports.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 08/18/13 3:31 pm ::: |
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| GEF34 wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| What's happening in Russia is hideous and very distressing. And it could be downright dangerous for ANY women's basketball player from the U.S. Certainly possible that bigots in Russia might target any of these women as being gay, whether it's true or not. |
I have a serious question, I know in the US if a female competes in certain sports (basketball, softball, field hockey, etc) people perceive to be gay, is that the same in other countries as well?
To clarify I know sports has nothing to do with being gay or straight, but that is the perceived stereotype in America. |
I don't know enough about the sports cultures in other countries to offer any informed opinion. But my strong suspicion is that this perceived stereotype is not restricted to the United States.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 08/18/13 3:36 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| What's happening in Russia is hideous and very distressing. And it could be downright dangerous for ANY women's basketball player from the U.S. Certainly possible that bigots in Russia might target any of these women as being gay, whether it's true or not. |
I have a serious question, I know in the US if a female competes in certain sports (basketball, softball, field hockey, etc) people perceive to be gay, is that the same in other countries as well?
To clarify I know sports has nothing to do with being gay or straight, but that is the perceived stereotype in America. |
I don't know enough about the sports cultures in other countries to offer any informed opinion. But my strong suspicion is that this perceived stereotype is not restricted to the United States. |
Thanks I was just curious, I know women's sports to an extent are embraced more in other countries than they are here, so I wondered if they had the same perceived stereotypes as well. Also considering some of these other countries views on homosexuality, you'd think they wouldn't embraces women's sports as much if they did have the same perceived stereotypes.
*By sports I mainly mean basketball and softball, but you could probably add soccer, field hockey, and some other sports as well. The more feminine sports (ice skating, gymnastics) never really carried the same stereotypes.
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Michelle89
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| Posted: 08/18/13 3:52 pm ::: |
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| In holland the stereotype is more with women playing soccer
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 08/18/13 4:43 pm ::: |
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| GEF34 wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| What's happening in Russia is hideous and very distressing. And it could be downright dangerous for ANY women's basketball player from the U.S. Certainly possible that bigots in Russia might target any of these women as being gay, whether it's true or not. |
I have a serious question, I know in the US if a female competes in certain sports (basketball, softball, field hockey, etc) people perceive to be gay, is that the same in other countries as well?
To clarify I know sports has nothing to do with being gay or straight, but that is the perceived stereotype in America. |
I don't know enough about the sports cultures in other countries to offer any informed opinion. But my strong suspicion is that this perceived stereotype is not restricted to the United States. |
Thanks I was just curious, I know women's sports to an extent are embraced more in other countries than they are here, so I wondered if they had the same perceived stereotypes as well. Also considering some of these other countries views on homosexuality, you'd think they wouldn't embraces women's sports as much if they did have the same perceived stereotypes.
*By sports I mainly mean basketball and softball, but you could probably add soccer, field hockey, and some other sports as well. The more feminine sports (ice skating, gymnastics) never really carried the same stereotypes. |
I believe that stereotyping is always tricky. In some cultures where homophobia hasn't been challenged to the extent it has in the U.S., there may not be stereotyping of female athletes because there may be absolutely massive denial that ANYONE is gay. In the U.S. in 2013, such massive denial is no longer possible. But stereotyping is still very much with us.
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Randy
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Randy
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| Posted: 08/18/13 5:53 pm ::: |
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| Double post
Last edited by Randy on 08/18/13 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 08/18/13 6:21 pm ::: |
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| I am very confused by what is going on in Russia right now. I make no claim of any deep understanding of the culture but I never got the impression that it was extremely homophobic, if anything it seemed to me that there was a decent amount of gay culture in Russia and that in recent years it was becoming much more visible. I also realize that there seems to be a growth in extreme right wing culture taking place in the last few years. Often when governments make moves of this nature it seems to be an attempt to scapegoat certain groups in an attempt to appease and win political capitol with certain elements of the populations and distract from other political failures. Are these laws actually reflective of the Russian culture and people or is there other things in play here?
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 08/18/13 6:38 pm ::: |
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| Michelle89 wrote: |
| In holland the stereotype is more with women playing soccer |
That's very interesting, do you know why that is?
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 08/18/13 6:42 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
I believe that stereotyping is always tricky. In some cultures where homophobia hasn't been challenged to the extent it has in the U.S., there may not be stereotyping of female athletes because there may be absolutely massive denial that ANYONE is gay. In the U.S. in 2013, such massive denial is no longer possible. But stereotyping is still very much with us. |
I agree, every country has their different beliefs, and that of course leads to more advanced or less advanced thinking on various topics, including homosexuality.
But obviously in a country like Russia who has acknowledge it does exist it would be interesting to see how the people view women's sports, especially where women's sports seem to be a big deal over there. (big deal compared to some other countries that is)
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 08/18/13 6:49 pm ::: |
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| GEF34 wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
I believe that stereotyping is always tricky. In some cultures where homophobia hasn't been challenged to the extent it has in the U.S., there may not be stereotyping of female athletes because there may be absolutely massive denial that ANYONE is gay. In the U.S. in 2013, such massive denial is no longer possible. But stereotyping is still very much with us. |
I agree, every country has their different beliefs, and that of course leads to more advanced or less advanced thinking on various topics, including homosexuality.
But obviously in a country like Russia who has acknowledge it does exist it would be interesting to see how the people view women's sports, especially where women's sports seem to be a big deal over there. (big deal compared to some other countries that is) |
One part of why women's sports is a big deal in Russia and other former Soviet bloc countries goes back to the Cold War. The Communist countries really wanted to overshadow the U.S. in Olympic medals. And they placed more emphasis on women's sports than we did. So a good deal of money went into sports programs for girls and into financial support for female athletes who had the potential to become Olympic champions.
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Angus24
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| Posted: 08/18/13 8:54 pm ::: |
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| I would be surprised if all of a sudden there are many Homophobes running around the streets of Moscow and other cities trying to make trouble for women athletes who are lesbians. That CBC News map shown in the link given by Bob Lamm says homosexuality in Russia is legal with restrictions whatever that means. I would also agree with "patsweetpat" that US players are probably closely guarded by the teams they play for. I would guess that this new law is the product of some guy or small group of guys who still think that homosexuality is a chosen behavior that can be turned off and on at will. They need to be educated to the fact that a certain percentage of people are just born that way and have no choice in the matter. Education and not protests is the only way to cure the Homophobes. Hope there will be no problems or incidents for any US or other foreign women playing in Russia.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 08/18/13 9:44 pm ::: |
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| Angus24 wrote: |
| I would be surprised if all of a sudden there are many Homophobes running around the streets of Moscow and other cities trying to make trouble for women athletes who are lesbians. That CBC News map shown in the link given by Bob Lamm says homosexuality in Russia is legal with restrictions whatever that means. I would also agree with "patsweetpat" that US players are probably closely guarded by the teams they play for. I would guess that this new law is the product of some guy or small group of guys who still think that homosexuality is a chosen behavior that can be turned off and on at will. They need to be educated to the fact that a certain percentage of people are just born that way and have no choice in the matter. Education and not protests is the only way to cure the Homophobes. Hope there will be no problems or incidents for any US or other foreign women playing in Russia. |
1. There have already been homophobic killings in Russia in the last year. This new law will encourage more killings.
2. The new law isn't just the product of "some guy" (Putin?) or a "small group of guys." Among the forces behind it are the powerful Russian Orthodox Church and various ugly right-wing political groups.
3. While education is valuable, the dramatic progress in LGBT rights in the U.S. and other countries over the last 50 years unquestionably reflects the impact of sustained and courageous political activism.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 08/18/13 10:10 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
I believe that stereotyping is always tricky. In some cultures where homophobia hasn't been challenged to the extent it has in the U.S., there may not be stereotyping of female athletes because there may be absolutely massive denial that ANYONE is gay. In the U.S. in 2013, such massive denial is no longer possible. But stereotyping is still very much with us. |
I agree, every country has their different beliefs, and that of course leads to more advanced or less advanced thinking on various topics, including homosexuality.
But obviously in a country like Russia who has acknowledge it does exist it would be interesting to see how the people view women's sports, especially where women's sports seem to be a big deal over there. (big deal compared to some other countries that is) |
One part of why women's sports is a big deal in Russia and other former Soviet bloc countries goes back to the Cold War. The Communist countries really wanted to overshadow the U.S. in Olympic medals. And they placed more emphasis on women's sports than we did. So a good deal of money went into sports programs for girls and into financial support for female athletes who had the potential to become Olympic champions. |
Right, but my question was more how do people of these countries perceive these women, like we talked about in this thread, there are some sports where Americans (not all) perceive or stereotype the participates to be homosexual, but when that are wearing those Team USA jerseys those same people are cheering them on to win the gold in the Olympics or World Championships, or win the titlein their pro leagues, so is that the same in other countries, not so much are they cheering for them to bring home the gold or win the championship, but do they stereotype all female athletes, participates in a specific sport as homosexual, regardless if they are cheering for them or why they are cheering for them to win.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 08/18/13 10:25 pm ::: |
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| GEF34 wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
I believe that stereotyping is always tricky. In some cultures where homophobia hasn't been challenged to the extent it has in the U.S., there may not be stereotyping of female athletes because there may be absolutely massive denial that ANYONE is gay. In the U.S. in 2013, such massive denial is no longer possible. But stereotyping is still very much with us. |
I agree, every country has their different beliefs, and that of course leads to more advanced or less advanced thinking on various topics, including homosexuality.
But obviously in a country like Russia who has acknowledge it does exist it would be interesting to see how the people view women's sports, especially where women's sports seem to be a big deal over there. (big deal compared to some other countries that is) |
One part of why women's sports is a big deal in Russia and other former Soviet bloc countries goes back to the Cold War. The Communist countries really wanted to overshadow the U.S. in Olympic medals. And they placed more emphasis on women's sports than we did. So a good deal of money went into sports programs for girls and into financial support for female athletes who had the potential to become Olympic champions. |
Right, but my question was more how do people of these countries perceive these women, like we talked about in this thread, there are some sports where Americans (not all) perceive or stereotype the participates to be homosexual, but when that are wearing those Team USA jerseys those same people are cheering them on to win the gold in the Olympics or World Championships, or win the titlein their pro leagues, so is that the same in other countries, not so much are they cheering for them to bring home the gold or win the championship, but do they stereotype all female athletes, participates in a specific sport as homosexual, regardless if they are cheering for them or why they are cheering for them to win. |
Your question is a great question. I don't know the answer. I hope others will.
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Michelle89
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GEF34
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Howee
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| Posted: 08/22/13 8:47 pm ::: |
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This is a very interesting discussion, on many levels. Given that most (all?) here are fans of female sports AND 'Gay-friendly', there is still a lot of disparity of opinion and logic. I'm thinking much of that may just be due to a difference in ages/generations.
| J-Spoon wrote: |
| I am very confused by what is going on in Russia right now. I make no claim of any deep understanding of the culture but I never got the impression that it was extremely homophobic, if anything it seemed to me that there was a decent amount of gay culture in Russia and that in recent years it was becoming much more visible. |
As a 50-something, I recall the "information" we Americans learned about the old Soviet Union back in the day. And I have numerous Russian friends. It's probably safe to say that the (former) Soviet Union/(now-mostly) Russia was certainly NOT very Gay-Friendly, and NOT because of religious influences but because of radically conservative ideologies. Some of this changed with Glasnost (late 80s-early 90s), with more liberal attitudes being tolerated. Sooo, if you're a 20-something, J-Spoon, your perception is accurate if you're relating to your Russian contemporaries.
| J-Spoon wrote: |
| I also realize that there seems to be a growth in extreme right wing culture taking place in the last few years. Often when governments make moves of this nature it seems to be an attempt to scapegoat certain groups in an attempt to appease and win political capitol with certain elements of the populations and distract from other political failures. Are these laws actually reflective of the Russian culture and people or is there other things in play here? |
Again, accurate observation. I believe that, since the 'reforms' of the 90s, the resurgent influence of Religion has played a BIG role in this. Russian Orthodoxy is VERY traditional/conservative.
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| patsweetpat wrote: |
| The WNBA stars who travel to Russia are employed by extremely wealthy and powerful magnates, many of whom have strong connections in the government (those players' own salaries, incidentally, are subsidized by the Russian government). And those players are, in large part, sheltered and protected by those powerful employers. So I think these WNBA stars will find themselves in far, far, far less danger (vis a vis this law) than your average, disempowered Russian dissident or activist. |
That's all true, completely valid. But out on the streets there are bigots who don't know or care about any of the above. |
The above boldfaced quote, oddly enough (?), could be said about the Good Ol' USofA. 
As I look at this debate, my first impulse is to say, "Seimone! REALLY?" I just know that I could not play in a country where this current turn of events was a Hot, New Topic of Concern in the gay community. Money be damned....any of these players could make (decent enough) money elsewhere.
But then....think about it....if one wanted to play ONLY in places where the host country was totally aligned with one's *values*....one might not be able to play ANYwhere, even HERE. 
Now, the USA has its own foibles and shortcomings. But at least there is progress [See: latest SCOTUS rulings re: DOMA]. For a country of Russia's status to adopt such blatantly retrogressive ideology is beyond the pale, tho.
It's 2013 there, too.
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Yupiter
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