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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
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 Posted: 10/22/21 10:49 am ::: |
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| HomerCecil wrote: |
| Statements like this remind me that in America, many people are more focused on their own personal freedoms than the freedom of other people to be protected from Covid. |
Couldn't you say that the people that got vaccinated are putting their freedoms ahead of the ones that didn't or don't want to? I mean, it seems like your statement could go both ways. I'm vaccinated and honestly, it doesn't matter to me what others do. The vaccine is supposed to protect me from the covid virus so I don't really get why some get hung up on others not doing it.
How do you guys feel about smoking? I'm a non-smoker and cigarette smoke messes with my eyes and contacts. As such, I like having smoke-free environments to enjoy a dinner out, a movie, etc. However, if I really think about it, I am saying my rights and freedom to clean air is more important than the right of Jim Smith to smoke. How does Jim feel about that? Well, he's pissed because he has the right to smoke a cigarette if he wants but he gets told where he can do it and where he can't. What makes my freedom more important than his?
Also, earlier someone said that we are good at balking when new demands come up or something like that. Well, on the flip side, aren't some people too willing to just go along with the crowd? I mean, do we want a society full of sheep that just do what they're told? I get that this isn't the right topic for that, but I don't think it's a problem to question things. Shouldn't we all think for ourselves and be critical thinkers about topics?
Yes, I'm vaccinated but I didn't do it right away. I still have lots of questions about the long term affects. There is absolutely no possible way we can know what those will be simply because neither the virus nor the vaccines have been around long enough to truly know.
Anyway, I get this is a very hot button topic, but I wish everyone would respect the beliefs of others. I see both sides and I am fine with whatever someone chooses. But clearly, many on here are completely one-sided and either fail to understand the other side or just flat out have the mentality that they are right and if you feel differently than them, you are just wrong.
Last edited by purduefanatic on 10/22/21 10:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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HomerCecil
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 10/22/21 10:50 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| HomerCecil wrote: |
| bucks4now wrote: |
In our country we have freedom of religion. We don't know what his religious beliefs are.
As a libertarian, I'm against mandates. It should be a personal choice and not mandates. Nobody ever looks at the unintended consequences. This time it's a vaccine, what is next?
Maybe his players will respect him more because he stood up for his principles.
We shouldn't be haters just because one a different perspective. |
Statements like this remind me that in America, many people are more focused on their own personal freedoms than the freedom of other people to be protected from Covid. There’s this sense, particularly one that developed from 2016 to 2020, that it’s okay to put yourself first and think only of yourself. That was the message from the Trump presidency. America first, right? When that filters down, people make selfish decisions. |
Maybe they're not convinced the government should have the power to tell people what they can and can't do with their own body.
Your body, your choice |
Yup, it was his choice to not get vaccinated. Choices have consequences. Americans are free to be completely ignorant of science and also ignore the fact that we have done far worse than nearly every other country in terms of the pandemic. 'Murica.
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
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Location: Indiana
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| Posted: 10/22/21 11:03 am ::: |
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| HomerCecil wrote: |
| 'Murica. |
True. This country sucks huh? 
I happen to love this country and thank goodness I don't live in a place where I'm told what to do, when to do it, how to do it, what I can/cannot wear, who I can love, where I can go, when I can go, etc.
Science takes some time when it comes to determining the long-term effects of a virus as well as the vaccine. This has been around and going on for what, 18 months or so now? That is a lot of time to study the virus, how it mutates, etc. But there is no possible way to know what will happen in the long term as just not enough time has gone by. Sure, they can simulate things like that in a lab, but there is no way to know how accurate that is until cases have worked their course and that can only happen through time.
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undersized_post
Joined: 01 Mar 2021
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| Posted: 10/22/21 12:54 pm ::: |
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| purduefanatic wrote: |
How do you guys feel about smoking? I'm a non-smoker and cigarette smoke messes with my eyes and contacts. As such, I like having smoke-free environments to enjoy a dinner out, a movie, etc. However, if I really think about it, I am saying my rights and freedom to clean air is more important than the right of Jim Smith to smoke. How does Jim feel about that? Well, he's pissed because he has the right to smoke a cigarette if he wants but he gets told where he can do it and where he can't. What makes my freedom more important than his? |
This analogy is so flawed and it has drove me nuts since the beginning of the pandemic when mask mandates were instituted and now vaccine mandates. Second hand smoke is DANGEROUS. A smoker certainly has the right to smoke privately or outdoors away from other people. But that right does not extend to smoking in enclosed spaces or near other people because at that point you're not just making a personal choice for yourself - you're harming the people around you.
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
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| Posted: 10/22/21 1:13 pm ::: |
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| undersized_post wrote: |
| purduefanatic wrote: |
How do you guys feel about smoking? I'm a non-smoker and cigarette smoke messes with my eyes and contacts. As such, I like having smoke-free environments to enjoy a dinner out, a movie, etc. However, if I really think about it, I am saying my rights and freedom to clean air is more important than the right of Jim Smith to smoke. How does Jim feel about that? Well, he's pissed because he has the right to smoke a cigarette if he wants but he gets told where he can do it and where he can't. What makes my freedom more important than his? |
This analogy is so flawed and it has drove me nuts since the beginning of the pandemic when mask mandates were instituted and now vaccine mandates. Second hand smoke is DANGEROUS. A smoker certainly has the right to smoke privately or outdoors away from other people. But that right does not extend to smoking in enclosed spaces or near other people because at that point you're not just making a personal choice for yourself - you're harming the people around you. |
I agree. But I can make the choice to not go in a place where you are allowed to smoke right? Or to move away from someone that lights up?
I felt just like you until a buddy (non-smoker) opened my eyes and made me look at it a little differently. I made the same argument about health issues/2nd hand smoke but honestly, it does look like my rights as a non-smoker supersede another person's rights as a smoker.
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undersized_post
Joined: 01 Mar 2021
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| Posted: 10/22/21 1:25 pm ::: |
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| purduefanatic wrote: |
| undersized_post wrote: |
| purduefanatic wrote: |
How do you guys feel about smoking? I'm a non-smoker and cigarette smoke messes with my eyes and contacts. As such, I like having smoke-free environments to enjoy a dinner out, a movie, etc. However, if I really think about it, I am saying my rights and freedom to clean air is more important than the right of Jim Smith to smoke. How does Jim feel about that? Well, he's pissed because he has the right to smoke a cigarette if he wants but he gets told where he can do it and where he can't. What makes my freedom more important than his? |
This analogy is so flawed and it has drove me nuts since the beginning of the pandemic when mask mandates were instituted and now vaccine mandates. Second hand smoke is DANGEROUS. A smoker certainly has the right to smoke privately or outdoors away from other people. But that right does not extend to smoking in enclosed spaces or near other people because at that point you're not just making a personal choice for yourself - you're harming the people around you. |
I agree. But I can make the choice to not go in a place where you are allowed to smoke right? Or to move away from someone that lights up? |
That is crazy. You're with your spouse and children at a restaurant. Right as your food arrives, a patron is seated next to you and begins to smoke. You're supposed to just leave? Or you're at a basketball game for a seat in an expensive courtside seat. You're supposed to abandon it because the fan next to you starts to smoke. How about the smoke drifting on to the court while the players are out of breath. They are free to quit the game? lmao
edit: This isn't even getting into how ableist your scenario is. A significant number of people are immunocompromised, have a respiratory illness, or are allergic to cigarette smoke. Creating a society that protects the most vulnerable among us is more important than being able to do whatever you want at any given moment.
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undersized_post
Joined: 01 Mar 2021
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| Posted: 10/22/21 1:38 pm ::: |
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| purduefanatic wrote: |
I felt just like you until a buddy (non-smoker) opened my eyes and made me look at it a little differently. I made the same argument about health issues/2nd hand smoke but honestly, it does look like my rights as a non-smoker supersede another person's rights as a smoker. |
This is more nonsense. Clean air is a public good. A smoker's right to pollute their own air does not give them the right to pollute a bystander's air. Similar scenario - Imagine you live downstream from a factory. Should the factory owner have the right to dump chemicals in the water that you drink? No, because that is dangerous. Yes, you could frame this as "the rights of the factory owner to dispose of hazardous waste are being infringed upon." But such "rights" don't trump the general public's right to live in a safe environment.
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
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| Posted: 10/22/21 1:41 pm ::: |
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| undersized_post wrote: |
| That is crazy. You're with your spouse and children at a restaurant. Right as your food arrives, a patron is seated next to you and begins to smoke. You're supposed to just leave? Or you're at a basketball game for a seat in an expensive courtside seat. You're supposed to abandon it because the fan next to you starts to smoke. How about the smoke drifting on to the court while the players are out of breath. They are free to quit the game? lmao |
True. I mean, those players only smoke pot or vape so the cigarette smoke would definitely cause them issues. You have seen the ventilation systems that they have now unlike in the 70's right? You wouldn't have a huge cloud over the court lmao.
You know, as much as it would inconvenience me and I wouldn't like it if someone sat next to my family and lit a cigarette, why shouldn't they be able to?
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undersized_post
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
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| Posted: 10/22/21 1:55 pm ::: |
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| undersized_post wrote: |
| purduefanatic wrote: |
I felt just like you until a buddy (non-smoker) opened my eyes and made me look at it a little differently. I made the same argument about health issues/2nd hand smoke but honestly, it does look like my rights as a non-smoker supersede another person's rights as a smoker. |
This is more nonsense. Clean air is a public good. A smoker's right to pollute their own air does not give them the right to pollute a bystander's air. Similar scenario - Imagine you live downstream from a factory. Should the factory owner have the right to dump chemicals in the water that you drink? No, because that is dangerous. Yes, you could frame this as "the rights of the factory owner to dispose of hazardous waste are being infringed upon." But such "rights" don't trump the general public's right to live in a safe environment. |
See, you are now talking about something getting put into your body that isn't healthy and the public's right to live in a safe environment. The people that don't want to get vaccinated are doing just that but they are getting raked over the coals. So the definition of a safe environment for someone that got the vaccine is different from someone that doesn't. We don't know what putting the vaccine into our bodies will do over the next several years. So they no longer have the right to determine what gets put into their bodies?
These arguments aren't as cut and dried as people like to think. Just because what seems right to you and/or me doesn't mean it does to someone else.
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purduefanatic
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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| Posted: 10/22/21 2:36 pm ::: |
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| purduefanatic wrote: |
| These arguments aren't as cut and dried as people like to think. Just because what seems right to you and/or me doesn't mean it does to someone else. |
This is truth. And I think, for the most part, people here are framing their opinions in that context.
| bucks4now wrote: |
| Personal freedoms are selfish. Anytime one makes a decision for one's family you would consider to be selfish. When you take your freedom away, it's called coercion. |
I'd take it you're implying that the coach in our OP is being coerced? As mentioned earlier: no -- he's not. No one is holding him down to give him 'the jab' forcibly. He's perfectly free to walk away, unvaccinated. Is he "free" to defy state government rulings? That's not "freedom", that's ignoring the rule of law.
| purduefanatic wrote: |
| HomerCecil wrote: |
| 'Murica. |
True. This country sucks huh? |
Well, THAT'S a stretch of inference. In the context of this thread, I'd say we Americans don't know just how MUCH "Free-er" we are than so many others. Demanding vaccination is no more coercive than making me buckle up, or forbidding that I drink while driving.
| purduefanatic wrote: |
| You know, as much as it would inconvenience me and I wouldn't like it if someone sat next to my family and lit a cigarette, why shouldn't they be able to? |
Anddd....you'd be that charitable in your opinion if they were, say, tossing live grenades around at the next table? Or firing their pistols randomly while sitting next to you? Is it just about the degree of danger involved?
I say my freedom to fire my pistol ends when it's aimed at you. We are NOT, nor ever HAVE BEEN, totally "free". Nor should we be. The libertarian fantasy isn't realistic, imo. At least not since civilization was accepted as preferable to living as wild creatures.
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
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| Posted: 10/22/21 2:53 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
Anddd....you'd be that charitable in your opinion if they were, say, tossing live grenades around at the next table? Or firing their pistols randomly while sitting next to you? Is it just about the degree of danger involved?
I say my freedom to fire my pistol ends when it's aimed at you. We are NOT, nor ever HAVE BEEN, totally "free". Nor should we be. The libertarian fantasy isn't realistic, imo. At least not since civilization was accepted as preferable to living as wild creatures. |
Really? I'm not talking about a lawless society. Come on now...
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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| Posted: 10/22/21 2:58 pm ::: |
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| purduefanatic wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
Anddd....you'd be that charitable in your opinion if they were, say, tossing live grenades around at the next table? Or firing their pistols randomly while sitting next to you? Is it just about the degree of danger involved?
I say my freedom to fire my pistol ends when it's aimed at you. We are NOT, nor ever HAVE BEEN, totally "free". Nor should we be. The libertarian fantasy isn't realistic, imo. At least not since civilization was accepted as preferable to living as wild creatures. |
Really? I'm not talking about a lawless society. Come on now... |
Well, ya....it's an extreme analogy, but....isn't it the same principle? If WA law sez, "Get vaccinated" if you're a state employee" AND you don't....isn't that lawlessness? Degrees.
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pilight
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| Posted: 10/22/21 2:59 pm ::: |
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| It's really not that complicated. Many people don't want politicians making their medical decisions for them.
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
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| Posted: 10/22/21 3:06 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| It's really not that complicated. Many people don't want politicians making their medical decisions for them. |
Thank you.
I really sent this off the rails with the smoking thing. Wasn't my intention. I hate smoking and yet I found myself defending smokers and making arguments for them, which clearly I wasn't very good at doing. I was playing devil's advocate, basically pointing out the different takes on these types of issues.
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Howee
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PickledGinger
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| Posted: 10/22/21 3:26 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| It's really not that complicated. Many people don't want politicians making their medical decisions for them. |
And what, not doing the common sense thing is an act of rebellion against that? Does anyone REALLY believe that the possible side-effects of the vaccine supersede the danger of getting full-blown COVID?
That is INSANE to me. I have a hard time believing that this is anything more than political and rhetorical stubborness.
Plain and simple, it is infurating to a lot of people in this country that there are a lot of other people in this country that believe that their personal freedoms are more important that public safety. They're not. You're one person. Get the over youself.
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Last edited by PickledGinger on 10/22/21 3:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 10/22/21 3:28 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| It's really not that complicated. Many people don't want politicians making their medical decisions for them. |
Really? What about the gynoticians? A lot of the people screaming about vaccines are just fine with them deciding about women's medical decisions. As the king said in "The King and I"---"Is a puzzlement!"
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pilight
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| Posted: 10/22/21 3:33 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| It's really not that complicated. Many people don't want politicians making their medical decisions for them. |
Really? What about the gynoticians? |
Lots of people are fine with politicians making medical decisions for other people. You can see seceral examples upthread.
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purduefanatic
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| Posted: 10/22/21 3:38 pm ::: |
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| On that same note, I know a TON of people that don't take any prescriptions. They believe in relying on eating properly, the healing value of plants, etc. They just don't believe in using drugs of any sort to keep them healthy or to treat an illness. Is that wrong? Is that insane? That's not a political stance at all. Could many also be using this same logic in regards to a vaccine that is less than year old?
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Phil
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 10/22/21 3:47 pm ::: |
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| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
I would hope that any vaccine mandates were based on public health considerations and not sports schedules.
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I wish that were the case, but sadly it is not. My sister-in-law is a federal employee with 29 years of service, planning to retire next year. She's been told she has to be vaccinated sometime in November or she will be fired. She works at home; they used to be in an office in town but there's no longer an office even in the state. She works in IT, and has been doing it remotely for years. I can't think of a public health consideration that would justify firing her.
Last edited by Phil on 10/22/21 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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| Posted: 10/22/21 5:30 pm ::: |
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| purduefanatic wrote: |
| On that same note, I know a TON of people that don't take any prescriptions. They believe in relying on eating properly, the healing value of plants, etc. They just don't believe in using drugs of any sort to keep them healthy or to treat an illness. Is that wrong? Is that insane? That's not a political stance at all. Could many also be using this same logic in regards to a vaccine that is less than year old? |
There are parallels, BUT....IF I decide to not treat my diabetes or heart disease pharmaceutically, those things aren't contagious to my neighbors.
| Phil wrote: |
| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
I would hope that any vaccine mandates were based on public health considerations and not sports schedules.
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I wish that were the case, but sadly it is not. My sister-in-law is a federal employee with 29 years of service, planning to retire next year. She's been told she has to revaccinated sometime in November or she will be fired. She works at home; they used to be in office in town but there's no longer an office even in the state. She works in IT, and has been doing it remotely for years. I can't think of a public health consideration that would justify firing her. |
Now THAT is a Government f-up.
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osubeavers
Joined: 07 Jan 2017
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| Posted: 10/22/21 11:05 pm ::: |
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| bucks4now wrote: |
In our country we have freedom of religion. We don't know what his religious beliefs are.
As a libertarian, I'm against mandates. It should be a personal choice and not mandates. Nobody ever looks at the unintended consequences. This time it's a vaccine, what is next?
Maybe his players will respect him more because he stood up for his principles.
We shouldn't be haters just because one a different perspective. |
This is cut and dried. Rolovich's contract says he has to comply with State rules and regulations. Bottom line, he doesn't have to take the vaccine, he just can't keep his job when he's in violation of his contract. He's likely to spend a big chunk of whatever money he has socked away on lawyers with little to show for it.
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osubeavers
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| Posted: 10/22/21 11:08 pm ::: |
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| purduefanatic wrote: |
| On that same note, I know a TON of people that don't take any prescriptions. They believe in relying on eating properly, the healing value of plants, etc. They just don't believe in using drugs of any sort to keep them healthy or to treat an illness. Is that wrong? Is that insane? That's not a political stance at all. Could many also be using this same logic in regards to a vaccine that is less than year old? |
I don't know if it's "insane" but it's enthusiastically anti-science.
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